Taildragger Technique for Gliders

[Papa3[_2_]]

Is anyone aware of a glider textbook or manual which teaches the details of taildragger takeoffs and landings in gliders? I have lots of examples that I've used personally with students based on my power training a Champ and dozens of available texts oriented at the power taildragger training.

Looking back through RAS, I found a couple of old threads but not what I was looking for. I just want to re-use someone else's diagrams and text. Failing that, I'll end up formally writing up my own notes along with those from a couple of other club CFIGs.

Not necessarily looking for a new thread on "why learning in Schweizers sucks" or "how come Americans don't know how to land." But it's Winter in the northern hemisphere, so I can probably predict where this will end up.

Erik Mann (P3)

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 6:43:22 PM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
> Is anyone aware of a glider textbook or manual which teaches the details of taildragger takeoffs and landings in gliders? I have lots of examples that I've used personally with students based on my power training a Champ and dozens of available texts oriented at the power taildragger training.
>
> Looking back through RAS, I found a couple of old threads but not what I was looking for. I just want to re-use someone else's diagrams and text. Failing that, I'll end up formally writing up my own notes along with those from a couple of other club CFIGs.
>
> Not necessarily looking for a new thread on "why learning in Schweizers sucks" or "how come Americans don't know how to land." But it's Winter in the northern hemisphere, so I can probably predict where this will end up.
>
> Erik Mann (P3)

Wolfgang Langewiesche had it all figured out in the late 30's of the last century. His book "Stick and Rudder" is unsurpassed in clarity and insights. All you ever wanted to how on how to control a glider or airplane.
Herb, J7

[6PK]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 4:43:22 PM UTC-8, Papa3 wrote:
> Is anyone aware of a glider textbook or manual which teaches the details of taildragger takeoffs and landings in gliders? I have lots of examples that I've used personally with students based on my power training a Champ and dozens of available texts oriented at the power taildragger training.
>
> Looking back through RAS, I found a couple of old threads but not what I was looking for. I just want to re-use someone else's diagrams and text. Failing that, I'll end up formally writing up my own notes along with those from a couple of other club CFIGs.
>
> Not necessarily looking for a new thread on "why learning in Schweizers sucks" or "how come Americans don't know how to land." But it's Winter in the northern hemisphere, so I can probably predict where this will end up.
>
> Erik Mann (P3)

Not much different than an airplane; two point touchdown in a glider as in a full stall landing in an airplane in calm conditions and medium to high energy mainwheel touchdown/approach in a glider as in a wheel landing in an airplane.

[6PK]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 5:48:53 PM UTC-8, 6PK wrote:
> On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 4:43:22 PM UTC-8, Papa3 wrote:
> > Is anyone aware of a glider textbook or manual which teaches the details of taildragger takeoffs and landings in gliders? I have lots of examples that I've used personally with students based on my power training a Champ and dozens of available texts oriented at the power taildragger training.
> >
> > Looking back through RAS, I found a couple of old threads but not what I was looking for. I just want to re-use someone else's diagrams and text. Failing that, I'll end up formally writing up my own notes along with those from a couple of other club CFIGs.
> >
> > Not necessarily looking for a new thread on "why learning in Schweizers sucks" or "how come Americans don't know how to land." But it's Winter in the northern hemisphere, so I can probably predict where this will end up..
> >
> > Erik Mann (P3)
>
> Not much different than an airplane; two point touchdown in a glider as in a full stall landing in an airplane in calm conditions and medium to high energy mainwheel touchdown/approach in a glider as in a wheel landing in an airplane.

To correct,I should have;"and medium to high energy mainwheel touchdown/approach in a glider as in a wheel landing in an airplane"- in windy/gusty conditions.

[Cookie]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 8:53:56 PM UTC-5, 6PK wrote:
> On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 5:48:53 PM UTC-8, 6PK wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 4:43:22 PM UTC-8, Papa3 wrote:
> > > Is anyone aware of a glider textbook or manual which teaches the details of taildragger takeoffs and landings in gliders? I have lots of examples that I've used personally with students based on my power training a Champ and dozens of available texts oriented at the power taildragger training.
> > >
> > > Looking back through RAS, I found a couple of old threads but not what I was looking for. I just want to re-use someone else's diagrams and text. Failing that, I'll end up formally writing up my own notes along with those from a couple of other club CFIGs.
> > >
> > > Not necessarily looking for a new thread on "why learning in Schweizers sucks" or "how come Americans don't know how to land." But it's Winter in the northern hemisphere, so I can probably predict where this will end up.
Oh boy...here comes all the arguments "for" and "against" the various techniques! I already have 4 disagreements with the last two posts! LOL...but not in the mood for arguing...so you guys have at it!

To Erik's point...lots of training stuff on the "net" for soaring...but nobody seems to go into the concept of taildragger gliders specifically, as they do in airplanes...hence the so many bad landings we seem to see.

Cookie






> >
> > Not much different than an airplane; two point touchdown in a glider as in a full stall landing in an airplane in calm conditions and medium to high energy mainwheel touchdown/approach in a glider as in a wheel landing in an airplane.
>
> To correct,I should have;"and medium to high energy mainwheel touchdown/approach in a glider as in a wheel landing in an airplane"- in windy/gusty conditions.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2018 17:13:16 -0800, herbkilian wrote:

> Wolfgang Langewiesche had it all figured out in the late 30's of the
> last century. His book "Stick and Rudder" is unsurpassed in clarity and
> insights. All you ever wanted to how on how to control a glider or
> airplane.
> Herb, J7

+1

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[kirk.stant]

So, Cookie, please be so kind as to educate us on your taildragger techniques (in gliders, of course).

66

[[email protected]]

Before Cookie starts, Ill add one, I thought, very insightful lesson I had from a instructor I had when learning tail wheel in a J3 cub. I already had 5k hours in sailplanes at this point and he said: "realize that you have to change from normal control to cross control once on the ground, just like you already do in your sailplane!" That was the ahaaa, moment for me. I had already been doing it in my Ventus now just make it happen in the cub, 140 and now the 170B :) hardest part is using a yoke instead of a stick :) Flame shields on!

CH

[jcg8w%[email protected]]

Russell Holtz's "Flight Training Manual for Gliders" has a pretty good section on landing. It is lesson 6.1. Covers the technique for landings where the tail wheel and main wheel touch at the same time

AE

[6PK]

I will be shocked if there is too much difference of opinion at least on this subject....

[Dan Marotta]

As a (retired) tow pilot, I have many, /many/ takeoffs and landings in
tail draggers and the vast majority of my glider operations are in tail
wheel equipped gliders, as well.Â* To put it bluntly, I see no comparison
between the two except for those gliders equipped with /steerable/ tail
wheels (mostly self launchers), and in those, the distance between the
main and tail wheels is so great and the steering authority of the tail
wheel so small (and non castering) that there is no need (in my opinion)
to worry about it.

In nose or tail dragger gliders, my best advice is to get onto the main
wheel only as quickly as possible for directional control with the
rudder.Â* With either end of the glider dragging on the ground there is
not much directional control.

Best,
Dan

On 12/27/2018 5:43 PM, Papa3 wrote:
> Is anyone aware of a glider textbook or manual which teaches the details of taildragger takeoffs and landings in gliders? I have lots of examples that I've used personally with students based on my power training a Champ and dozens of available texts oriented at the power taildragger training.
>
> Looking back through RAS, I found a couple of old threads but not what I was looking for. I just want to re-use someone else's diagrams and text. Failing that, I'll end up formally writing up my own notes along with those from a couple of other club CFIGs.
>
> Not necessarily looking for a new thread on "why learning in Schweizers sucks" or "how come Americans don't know how to land." But it's Winter in the northern hemisphere, so I can probably predict where this will end up.
>
> Erik Mann (P3)

--
Dan, 5J

[Mike C]

On Friday, December 28, 2018 at 9:33:48 AM UTC-7, 6PK wrote:
> I will be shocked if there is too much difference of opinion at least on this subject....

I had to land my RS-15 on its main wheel and continue to "fly" it on the ground, while still on its main, until I used the effective wheel brake to slow and stop. As soon as the tail wheel would touch the ground there would be very little aileron control. Landing that sailplane in a conventional two point landing would cause a wing drop soon after touchdown resulting in a trip off the edge of the runway. Reworking the flap/aileron mixing cam helped but did not solve the problem. Other RS-15's had the same behavior. My Mini Nimbus was fine with two point landings as well as main wheel landings.

Mike

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, December 28, 2018 at 11:51:25 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> As a (retired) tow pilot, I have many, many takeoffs and
> landings in tail draggers and the vast majority of my glider
> operations are in tail wheel equipped gliders, as well.Â* To put it
> bluntly, I see no comparison between the two except for those
> gliders equipped with steerable tail wheels (mostly self
> launchers), and in those, the distance between the main and tail
> wheels is so great and the steering authority of the tail wheel so
> small (and non castering) that there is no need (in my opinion) to
> worry about it.
>
>
> I agree 100% with Dan's comments. There is no comparison between the two, nothing about them is anywhere near a comparison. Keep the glider straight and wings level is my advice.
> In nose or tail dragger gliders, my best advice is to get onto the
> main wheel only as quickly as possible for directional control with
> the rudder.Â* With either end of the glider dragging on the ground
> there is not much directional control.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> On 12/27/2018 5:43 PM, Papa3 wrote:
>
>
>
> Is anyone aware of a glider textbook or manual which teaches the details of taildragger takeoffs and landings in gliders? I have lots of examples that I've used personally with students based on my power training a Champ and dozens of available texts oriented at the power taildragger training.
>
> Looking back through RAS, I found a couple of old threads but not what I was looking for. I just want to re-use someone else's diagrams and text. Failing that, I'll end up formally writing up my own notes along with those from a couple of other club CFIGs.
>
> Not necessarily looking for a new thread on "why learning in Schweizers sucks" or "how come Americans don't know how to land." But it's Winter in the northern hemisphere, so I can probably predict where this will end up.
>
> Erik Mann (P3)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

I agree too, no issue.
Then again : some people should just take up golf. ;)
Tom

[danlj]

you don’t say what you are looking for.
1: my experience is that aviation insurance companies do not consider glider time to be “tail wheel time“.
I expect that this is because gliders don't want to swap ends while taxiing..
2: there are significant differences in ground controllability along gliders. Important factors include
A: whether the tail wheel is fixed, “steerable�, or castering
B: the degree of rudder and aileron authority at taxi speeds.
For example, a Blanik L-13 with a castering tailwheel retains rudder and aileron authority to extremely low speeds, and can be turned rather sharply with opposite aileron, simply not possible in a glider with a fixed tail wheel once that's on the ground.
Each glider had its own nuances.