Youth Members in your (US) Club

[Ulrich Neumann]

Hi all,

I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
carts are already there!)

Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)

Ulrich Neumann

[BTIZ]

We support youth soaring with a discounted membership rate.

Most of the income to the club is from youth taking flying lessons.

Our group insurance covers us, but in the event of a parental law suit for
injuries.. no club is safe from financial ruin, could even happen if an
adult is hurt and a disgruntled wife who hated flying finds a lawyer.

Our instructors are pretty good evaluators of flying capability and
attentiveness of the student, adult or otherwise. We've actually had to
discourage more adults from learning to fly, then the youths. We've actually
"kicked out" some adult rated pilots for their risky flying and not willing
to change. They lead a poor example of professionalism for our kids.

We have not had any legal problems with any of our members, youth or adult.

BT

"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
> debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
> taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
> another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
> stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
> considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
> just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
> legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
> finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
> parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
> to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
> carts are already there!)
>
> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
> club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
> issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
> may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)
>
> Ulrich Neumann

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
> debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
> taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
> another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
> stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
> considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
> just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
> legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
> finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
> parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
> to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
> carts are already there!)
>
> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
> club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
> issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
> may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)
>
> Ulrich Neumann
My club supports both youth and family members with discounted joining fees
and dues (50%). You are no more likely to be sued by a parent than a
widow(er) in the event of an incident. If you are training to approved
standards and documenting such training, there should be no issues. If
there are holes in that picture, there are other, more serious issues that
need tending to.

Youth programs can consist of simple support/relief to formalized full-ride,
merit/performance based youth programs such as Harris Hill Soaring or Texas
Soaring Association, that go beyond simple fee reduction.

Youth programs and club planning will be on the club track program on Friday
at the 2005 SSA Convention.

Frank Whiteley

[Malcolm Austin]

Hi, at my club here in the UK we see things similar to yourself.

We do get a fair amount of youngsters in during the summer months (school
or college hols) but they drop off during the term times. One point that
seems
to fit a fair amount of returnees though is that they went gliding during
their youth. So
if your guys want to cut off older members in later times, let them carry
on.

Probably like most hobbies/sports you see the same as we do, a declining
youth
level and older and older pilots? This point affects even the instructor
levels
and is a source of much anguish in the sport.

I suggest you put some of these "older mentality" guys out to grass!

Malcolm... (aged 53 and 3/4's)


"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
> debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
> taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
> another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
> stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
> considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
> just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
> legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
> finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
> parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
> to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
> carts are already there!)
>
> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
> club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
> issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
> may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)
>
> Ulrich Neumann

[Skip Guimond]

Our club actively supports youth soaring and family memberships. We
recognize that as we look at out young members we are looking at the
future of soaring.

Our support includes not only discounted membership, but a very active
youth scholarship program which is entirely supported by donations,
mostly from members, not dues. The club also supports the local CAP
cadet soaring program and allows them use of our facilities without
charge.

The "Soaring Magazine" Milestones column each month also provides a
thumbnail sketch of many club's support of youth activity.

Skip Guimond

[Hank Nixon]

(Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message >...
> Hi all,
>
> I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
> debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
> taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
> another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
> stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
> considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
> just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
> legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
> finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
> parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
> to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
> carts are already there!)
>
> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
> club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
> issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
> may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)
>
> Ulrich Neumann

Reply:
One of the purposes stated in our club(Valley Soaring Club- Middletown
NY) is to provide opportunities to soar for youth.
We strongly support this activity. Cost to learn is a bit less than
1/2 of regular members which covers variable costs but does not
contribute to fixed costs. This works for us.
Jr's have a 1-26 provided that costs $0 per hour after they qualify to
fly it. They pay for tows.
Jr's are expected to do extra to help in operations.
We've been doing this for more than 25 years with excellent results.
The kids take the sport seriously and show the same good judgement as
the adults around them.
Have met your son and expect he should do well. He needs to show he is
serious and has the discipline to be a safe contributor to the club.
Tell the old farts to watch how well a young person can do with a
little help.
I've NEVER seen a bad kid at the airport.
Contact me privately if I can be of more help.
UH

[Joseph L. Hyde]

Hi,

A quick note about our club policies. At Memphis Soaring Society all
memberships are FAMILY memberships. This means that spouses and children
are included in one initiation fee. There is the additional fee for the SSA
memberships of the additional family members, but that is small. Our club
encourages the sport and glider port as a family activity. We have a small
number of youth who are actually flying at this time. In the short time
that I have been a member (2.5 years) there have been no incidents where
youth has been a factor.

With that being said, my spouse has said she has no intent of ever seeing
the gliderport. Oh well.....

I do think this is a great policy for a club to take. Somewhere deep in the
charter of this club it is stated one purpose is to provide flight training
for the lowest cost possible.

Now from my personal viewpoint. I began flying at 15 (power) and only
wish this sort of club had been available. This is an aging sport, we MUST
encourage youth soaring or this sport will wither. The affiliation with CAP
is well meaning, but most kids do not wish to march in uniform to the barked
orders of some wanna-a-be colonel who probably never served a day in his
life. (My apologies to some of the few stellar squadrons out there) I
think that clubs that promote youth flying are clubs that are working to
insure their own futures. (Just a personal opinion) I am going to enclose
the url to our club's website if anyone is interested.

In closing,,, please forgive me for my self-serving promotion of our
club..... To the Ulrich,,, I hope you are able to find encouragement for
your son from your organization, after all, it is in THEIR best interest
also. and btw....send me your mail address email. I think I never sent you
the mylar I promised last year for root seals.

Take Care and Fly Safe,

Joe Hyde


http://www.memphis-soaring.org/



"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
> debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
> taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
> another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
> stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
> considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
> just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
> legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
> finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
> parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
> to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
> carts are already there!)
>
> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
> club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
> issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
> may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)
>
> Ulrich Neumann

[Kevin]

Ulrich....

The situation you describe is somthing that many parents and juniors
deal with all the time. I was lucky enough to start flying (when 14)
at an operation that supported juniors, and all my local clubs have
always been like that. My experience in other places, however, hasn't
been as great.

I've flown at several commercial operations throughout the years, all
of them seemingly convinced my sole purpose in attempting to rent their
equipment was to break it. Standard procedure when checking out
juniors seems to be multiple rope breaks at places I don't consider
safe at all (and, as an instructor, would never put a student, pilot
getting a BFR or spring checkout, ect. in). At one location, after
satisfying their instructor, I was actually complemented. At another,
after the 3rd ropebreak in a row this one in a position that was beyond
my not safe level (and into my punch the instructor in the face area) I
walked away no longer interested in flying there.

Incidently, two things came from that. One, the instructor recently
ran for the SSA Board on a "pro juniors" position. Its amazing what
people will say to try to get elected. Thank god he didnt. Secondly,
a pilot was recently killed because of a rope break at that airport. I
called a friend, only to find out that the ropebreak occured at the
same place and altitude where I had been given an intentional
ropebreak. I guess now I'm glad I'm still alive today.

In many places, there seems to be an anti-youth culture. I can
remember one MAJOR figure in soaring and a prominent author write an
article about how he thought DPE's weren't following the PTS as they
should be. All of his examples cited juniors who he felt shouldnt be a
private pilot, or even a CFIG. I think that on the whole, the majority
of pilots across all fields of aviation support youth, but there is a
small minority that dosen't. The problem with this is the minority is
vocal, and the majority in this country just haven't been doing whats
needed to be done to fix the situation.

Help is on the way, however. Watch this forumn for in the next few
weeks as myself and several others are working to form a major new
organization for Junior soaring in the US, and you should be seeing
somthing soon.

Kevin Christner, CFIG
Jantar Std. 2 N932KC

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Joseph L. Hyde" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi,
>
> A quick note about our club policies. At Memphis Soaring Society all
> memberships are FAMILY memberships. This means that spouses and children
> are included in one initiation fee. There is the additional fee for the
SSA
> memberships of the additional family members, but that is small. Our club
> encourages the sport and glider port as a family activity. We have a
small
> number of youth who are actually flying at this time. In the short time
> that I have been a member (2.5 years) there have been no incidents where
> youth has been a factor.
>
> With that being said, my spouse has said she has no intent of ever seeing
> the gliderport. Oh well.....
>
> I do think this is a great policy for a club to take. Somewhere deep in
the
> charter of this club it is stated one purpose is to provide flight
training
> for the lowest cost possible.
>
> Now from my personal viewpoint. I began flying at 15 (power) and only
> wish this sort of club had been available. This is an aging sport, we
MUST
> encourage youth soaring or this sport will wither. The affiliation with
CAP
> is well meaning, but most kids do not wish to march in uniform to the
barked
> orders of some wanna-a-be colonel who probably never served a day in his
> life. (My apologies to some of the few stellar squadrons out there) I
> think that clubs that promote youth flying are clubs that are working to
> insure their own futures. (Just a personal opinion) I am going to
enclose
> the url to our club's website if anyone is interested.
>
> In closing,,, please forgive me for my self-serving promotion of our
> club..... To the Ulrich,,, I hope you are able to find encouragement
for
> your son from your organization, after all, it is in THEIR best interest
> also. and btw....send me your mail address email. I think I never sent
you
> the mylar I promised last year for root seals.
>
> Take Care and Fly Safe,
>
> Joe Hyde
>
Surprisingly, wear of the uniform was one of the big draws to CAP (according
to a survey). My local CAP squadron does scant little, if any, flying.
Other squadrons do much better. Explorer Scouting may be an opportunity to
organize a youth group with an aviation emphasis. See
http://www.learning-for-life.org/exploring/aviation/index.html

Frank Whiteley

[Jim Kellett]

"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
> club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
> issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
> may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)

<snip>

Most of the Clubs in Region IV - including my own, Skyline - have some kind
of youth membershi/involvement with a special membership category/fee
structure. One (Tidewater) offers SUBSTANTIAL youth scholarships!!! In
addition, there's an active CAP program for youth in gliders, although not
every Wing (state) provides instrutcion beyond "Orientation rides".

FWIW, the "problem" - at the risk of horrible oversimplification - seems to
be a cultural one in which the "boomer" generation (and maybe the younger
"boomer echo" generation") is far, far more risk-averse than the generations
that currently represent the patriarchs of soaring (like mine - I'm 68 years
old.) Frankly, I think this cultural issue is one that we need to get a lot
smarter about in soaring if we're to survive . . . but the solution
certainly isn't to turn our collective backs on young people, but to figure
out how to deliver safe soaring to a short attention span, risk averse
population . . .


Jim Kellett, Resident Curmudgeon
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored ."
-Aldous Huxley

[Shawn]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

> Surprisingly, wear of the uniform was one of the big draws to CAP (according
> to a survey). My local CAP squadron does scant little, if any, flying.
> Other squadrons do much better. Explorer Scouting may be an opportunity to
> organize a youth group with an aviation emphasis. See
> http://www.learning-for-life.org/exploring/aviation/index.html
>
> Frank Whiteley

A survey of teenagers at large? I'd find that real surprising, unless
the uniform was a hoodie, baggy pants and an MP3 player (girls or boys).
I would imagine very different results if you just surveyed the CAP
kids. I think the sport (in the US) would benefit greatly from courting
more than the pre-ROTC teens. For most kids a big attraction of soaring
might be that its not *uniform*, not the same thing all the other kids
are doing. CAP and Scouts offer a straight forward avenue into this
population, and I'm all for utilizing it, but I don't think we are best
served by acting like a branch of these organizations.
Skate parks! That's where we can go to get access to a different crowd
of kids. I'll try it if Salida ever gets flight instruction going again.

Shawn

P.S. Frank, don't they fly the K-21?

[Shawn]

Jim Kellett wrote:


> Most of the Clubs in Region IV - including my own, Skyline - have some kind
> of youth membershi/involvement with a special membership category/fee
> structure. One (Tidewater) offers SUBSTANTIAL youth scholarships!!! In
> addition, there's an active CAP program for youth in gliders, although not
> every Wing (state) provides instrutcion beyond "Orientation rides".
>
> FWIW, the "problem" - at the risk of horrible oversimplification - seems to
> be a cultural one in which the "boomer" generation (and maybe the younger
> "boomer echo" generation") is far, far more risk-averse than the generations
> that currently represent the patriarchs of soaring (like mine - I'm 68 years
> old.) Frankly, I think this cultural issue is one that we need to get a lot
> smarter about in soaring if we're to survive . . . but the solution
> certainly isn't to turn our collective backs on young people, but to figure
> out how to deliver safe soaring to a short attention span, risk averse
> population . . .

That's a new one on me! The kids that aren't dumpy fat couch potatoes
playing Doom III all day are out doing some pretty scary stuff. Watch
the X Games on ESPN sometime.
A problem soaring has is that kids see all the old guys and figure its a
boring old fart sport. Dumb kids! ;-)

Shawn

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Shawn" > wrote in message
...
> F.L. Whiteley wrote:
>
> > Surprisingly, wear of the uniform was one of the big draws to CAP
(according
> > to a survey). My local CAP squadron does scant little, if any, flying.
> > Other squadrons do much better. Explorer Scouting may be an opportunity
to
> > organize a youth group with an aviation emphasis. See
> > http://www.learning-for-life.org/exploring/aviation/index.html
> >
> > Frank Whiteley
>
> A survey of teenagers at large? I'd find that real surprising, unless
> the uniform was a hoodie, baggy pants and an MP3 player (girls or boys).
> I would imagine very different results if you just surveyed the CAP
> kids. I think the sport (in the US) would benefit greatly from courting
> more than the pre-ROTC teens. For most kids a big attraction of soaring
> might be that its not *uniform*, not the same thing all the other kids
> are doing. CAP and Scouts offer a straight forward avenue into this
> population, and I'm all for utilizing it, but I don't think we are best
> served by acting like a branch of these organizations.
> Skate parks! That's where we can go to get access to a different crowd
> of kids. I'll try it if Salida ever gets flight instruction going again.
>
> Shawn
>
> P.S. Frank, don't they fly the K-21?

Actually, I think the uniform was the adult attraction. There is a class
'b' CAP uniform which consists of the CAP hat, wing T, and shorts. BDU's
and Blues are fine, in their place.

I agree, there's a lot of baggage to drag to the airfield in CAP and Scouts.
Exploring has diverged from Scouting, per se.

There's a large soccer organization on a former turf farm a few miles south
of our club. It's packed every weekend. I think there must be at least a
dozen fields.

Frank

[Shawn]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

> "Shawn" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>F.L. Whiteley wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Surprisingly, wear of the uniform was one of the big draws to CAP
>
> (according
>
>>>to a survey). My local CAP squadron does scant little, if any, flying.
>>>Other squadrons do much better. Explorer Scouting may be an opportunity
>
> to
>
>>>organize a youth group with an aviation emphasis. See
>>>http://www.learning-for-life.org/exploring/aviation/index.html
>>>
>>>Frank Whiteley
>>
>>A survey of teenagers at large? I'd find that real surprising, unless
>>the uniform was a hoodie, baggy pants and an MP3 player (girls or boys).
>> I would imagine very different results if you just surveyed the CAP
>>kids. I think the sport (in the US) would benefit greatly from courting
>>more than the pre-ROTC teens. For most kids a big attraction of soaring
>>might be that its not *uniform*, not the same thing all the other kids
>>are doing. CAP and Scouts offer a straight forward avenue into this
>>population, and I'm all for utilizing it, but I don't think we are best
>>served by acting like a branch of these organizations.
>>Skate parks! That's where we can go to get access to a different crowd
>>of kids. I'll try it if Salida ever gets flight instruction going again.
>>
>>Shawn
>>
>>P.S. Frank, don't they fly the K-21?
>
>
> Actually, I think the uniform was the adult attraction. There is a class
> 'b' CAP uniform which consists of the CAP hat, wing T, and shorts. BDU's
> and Blues are fine, in their place.
>
> I agree, there's a lot of baggage to drag to the airfield in CAP and Scouts.
> Exploring has diverged from Scouting, per se.
>
> There's a large soccer organization on a former turf farm a few miles south
> of our club. It's packed every weekend. I think there must be at least a
> dozen fields.

Hmm, those soccer moms too. :-)
Get them all soaring instead of kicking and you'll open up some nice
landable terrain.

Shawn

[Tony Verhulst]

The Greater Boston Soaring Club (Northeast US) has a very successful
Youth program which won the Civil Air Patrol "Northeast Region Brewer
Award for Aerospace Education excellence" award this year. See the club
website http://soargbsc.org and click on "Junior Program".

Tony V.

[Chris Gadsby]

Another UK perspective.

Our club offers a discounted junior membership to encourage youngsters.
The lower limit is about 14/15 - mainly on the basis that if they get to
solo standard before they can go solo (16) the frustration may set in
and they leave.

They are treated just the same as any adult ab-initio and expected to
learn how to do all the routine tasks involved in launching a glider
(maintaining the log book, fitting cables, helping retrieve etc.etc).


Chris Gadsby


Ulrich Neumann wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
>debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
>taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
>another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
>stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
>considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
>just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
>legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
>finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
>parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
>to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
>carts are already there!)
>
>Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
>category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
>club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
>issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
>may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)
>
>Ulrich Neumann
>
>

[John H. Campbell]

> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? ...

These systems are back in the majority (they were normal in the 1960s when I
was a benefiting teenager and fell off in the '80s). My 1998 analysis of
SSA Youth membership showed nearly 1/2 of SSA Chapters with 0 Youth Members,
7 USA States with 0, and 1/2 of SSA Regions (3-4 State areas) with under
50... but things have improved (see my SOARING piece, July '04, p. 7).
Harris Hill Soaring Corp. has been a persistent good example that DEPENDS on
its youth component for daily operations as well as recruiting and legacy.
Recent positive resurgences have included Texas SA, SC of Houston,
MITSA/GBSC, Tidewater SS,... With SOARING magazine deliberately increasing
its coverage of youth events and ideas, the "Milestones" column has more
positive examples every month. Your curmudgeons are definitely the
exception.

See http://acro.harvard.edu/SOARING/books/gb_youth.htm (1994), where I
argued that to get youth, you need a youth PROGRAM.

See also, for inspiration,
www.soarcsa.org/ssa/ssay/ycom.htm
www.soarcsa.org/ssa/ssay/sailyth.htm
www.greeleynet.com/~jhpc/SSAYouth.ppt

John H. Campbell
SSA Youth Committee

[Michael]

(Ulrich Neumann) wrote
> All kinds of half-baked
> legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
> finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
> parents, etc.

Look, let me start by saying I support youth involvement in all air
sports, and am always willing to volunteer my time as an instructor
(parachutes, gliders, airplanes) to make it happen. I will be the
last person in the world to argue that we shouldn't have them around
and flying - and you better believe I mean solo. In fact, while I
have a standing rule about not signing off glider students for solo XC
(on the principle that if you are competent to go XC, you should
easily be able to pass the private glider checkride and do it on your
own ticket, not mine) I specifically make an exception for those under
16 because they CAN'T get a glider ticket, and I don't want to see
them stuck flying circles around the home field until they can.

Having said all that - the legalities being cited are not half-baked.
There really is a risk of legal liability if a minor is hurt, and this
is an issue that should be addressed.

We all sign waivers when we join clubs, and there is legal precedent
that such waivers are valid. The landmark case is Hulsey v. Elsinore,
and involves a parachute club rather than a soaring club, but the
principle is sound and not limited to parachuting. I could not find
it online, but did find a similar case that used is as precedent:
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeID=60206

In other words, an injured adult is not likely to be able to sue the
soaring club in spite of a waiver absent gross negligence.

Not so for a minor. A minor can't sign away his own rights; neither
can the parent sign them away. The only real solution is a waiver
that specifies that in the event the minor chooses to sue, the parent
will cover the club's legal expenses. Such a strategy has been
employed by Relative Workshop, and while the case was settled, it was
settled by the plaintiff (injured in a parachuting accident) paying a
settlement to the defendant (the manufacturer of the parachute).

So the bottom line is, I do not believe the legal problem of having
minor in the club is insurmountable - but it is real, not half-baked.

Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer, neither do I play one on TV - but I
did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.

Michael

[Bob Kibby]

Texas Soaring Association (USA) has a very active and successful Youth
Program. Go to "Item 13. TSA Youth Program" on our home page at:
http://www.texassoaring.org/ to see youth qualifications, ect.

Bob Kibby "2BK"

[Mark James Boyd]

>A survey of teenagers at large? I'd find that real surprising, unless
>the uniform was a hoodie, baggy pants and an MP3 player (girls or boys).

In the winter, the hoodie is a great idea for me. And I
used to wear baggy pants until my ass got so big, now my pants are
too tight. Maybe the kids are really smart and just thinking ahead?
And I'm expecting an IPOD for my birthday (how do the old farts live
without them?)

I think all aircraft should have a sound system, with a good
mix of rap and country music, installed at the factory.

I must say I'm glad not everyone judges youth, or even me, by
what I wear or the way I talk or the dangfangled music I listen to.
Otherwise, I'd be single and nobody would fly with me.
Right, y'all? :PPPP

At my club, it seems most of the members understand that the
youth are the key to the club. We absolutely love the
BBQ and picnic and rides for kids. Yes, some of the youth don't
have the focus, single-mindedness, and discipline to
shoot through a training program. Same for some adults.

The main thing is they are encouraged. And yes, we have
family memberships. What clubs don't? Who would want
to go somewhere that the family is excluded?

As far as 14 being to young to fly a glider, 14 is just a
govt. minimum age. There will be some kids who simply aren't
mature enough at 14 (or even 17) to avoid damaging
a glider or themselves. How this decision is made
seems like a question beyond the scope of this newsgroup...
There are simply a lot of intangibles. One would hope that the club
has a single focus decider (senior CFI perhaps) who is delegated the
power to decide yea or nay.

If you don't like that, I suppose one must vote with ones feet
(go elsewhere).
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

Bob Kibby > wrote:
>Texas Soaring Association (USA) has a very active and successful Youth
>Program. Go to "Item 13. TSA Youth Program" on our home page at:
>http://www.texassoaring.org/ to see youth qualifications, ect.

More on the youth thing...

Los Angeles, CA, USA has a glider squadron of Civil Air Patrol.
I'd like to set one up in the Bay Area, CA. Perhaps out of Moffett
Field or NASA Crows Landing.

The CAP seems to have a real knack for this stuff.
Maybe open a unit in your area?

Just an idea...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4165e033$1@darkstar...
<snip>
> At my club, it seems most of the members understand that the
> youth are the key to the club. We absolutely love the
> BBQ and picnic and rides for kids. Yes, some of the youth don't
> have the focus, single-mindedness, and discipline to
> shoot through a training program. Same for some adults.
<snip>
A good water balloon launcher or two is essential for hot evening BBQs.
Kids make great moving targets at 75-100 yards. An ice chest can hold
hundreds of pre-loaded balloons.

[For Example John Smith]

Soaring Club of Houston has two special interest groups within the club, one
for youth and one for women. The one for Youth has over a dozen members and
includes some of the most active pilots, in terms of tows, in the club.
The club also has a family membership option.

I hope my daughter takes an interest (she's two now). It sure is great to
see families enjoying the flying, the working and the cameraderie of the
gliderport.

Brent
"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
> debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
> taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
> another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
> stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
> considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
> just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
> legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
> finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
> parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
> to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
> carts are already there!)
>
> Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
> category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
> club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
> issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
> may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)
>
> Ulrich Neumann

[Mark James Boyd]

>I hope my daughter takes an interest (she's two now). It sure is great to
>see families enjoying the flying, the working and the cameraderie of the
>gliderport.
>
>Brent

She's two and she isn't ready to solo yet? ;P

When my daughter was 6 months old, I could hardly keep her from
grabbing the stick! She was pulling back so hard
I though she really wanted to try spins, but I told her she'd
need to be at least seven months old before we tried that.

I have to say for youth price can be a little bit of a problem
too. I've been thinking about how to reduce the cost of flying for youth.
Gliders is a good first step, but the launch seems a bit pricey.
I've GOT to try this auto-tow launch business. Now THAT
seems like a good way to get youth involved...at a low price...



P.S. Too bad I won't be able to teach my daughter after Oct. 20th
unless she has a Government Photo ID and verification of citizenship.
I need this to verify she was really the little girl I saw
there when my wife was giving birth... ;P
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Bill Daniels]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:416dbb57$1@darkstar...
snip

> I have to say for youth price can be a little bit of a problem
> too. I've been thinking about how to reduce the cost of flying for youth.
> Gliders is a good first step, but the launch seems a bit pricey.
> I've GOT to try this auto-tow launch business. Now THAT
> seems like a good way to get youth involved...at a low price...
>
snip> ------------+
> Mark J. Boyd

Auto tow takes too much room. Look at winch launch.
Take a look at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/

This REALLY turns on young people.

Bill Daniels

[Mark James Boyd]

>Auto tow takes too much room. Look at winch launch.
>Take a look at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/
>
>This REALLY turns on young people.
>
>Bill Daniels

Well, as I don't have a winch in my driveway, this doesn't work.
I have a winch in my driveway, and I have a auto-tow rig.
Now I just need a runway...

NASA Crow's landing looks ideal. Nobody else out there,
big long runway, failry close to major cities, and I've
got several "ins."

Winch just isn't happening for under $500 + footwork.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

In article <416dc436$1@darkstar>, Mark James Boyd > wrote:
>>Auto tow takes too much room. Look at winch launch.
>>Take a look at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/
>>
>>This REALLY turns on young people.
>>
>>Bill Daniels
>
>Well, as I don't have a winch in my driveway, this doesn't work.
>I have a winch in my driveway, and I have a auto-tow rig.
OOps, I meant to say "I have a truck in my driveway"

>Now I just need a runway...
>
>NASA Crow's landing looks ideal. Nobody else out there,
>big long runway, failry close to major cities, and I've
>got several "ins."
>
>Winch just isn't happening for under $500 + footwork.
>--
>
>------------+
>Mark J. Boyd


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Ulrich Neumann]

>
> I hope my daughter takes an interest (she's two now). It sure is great to
> see families enjoying the flying, the working and the cameraderie of the
> gliderport.
>
> Brent

Hi all,

thank you very much for your contributions on the issue of
youth/family memberships. I guess I am just dealing with some odd-ball
geezers and I am glad to hear that other groups take a more pro-active
role in supporting young (minor) pilots.
As for Brent's comment: I can confirm that is very satisfying as a
parent to see ones son or daughter take an inteest in the activity you
love. I had my son sitting in the back seat when he was four or five.
Then he was sitting in the front seat. Now he is sitting in the 1-26
across the thermal trying to outclimb his old man! My daughter is
showing interest too and I just hope that we can resolve the family
membership issue in our club by the time she is old enough to take
lessons.

Uli Neumann