USA - All students must show "papers" [Archive]

tango4

October 8th 04, 06:27 PM

So I take it no visitors to the US can get any instruction? Has that killed
all the flight schools offering cheaper flight training for European pilots?

What about visiting pilots wanting a checkride before taking a club or FBO
ship?

Talk about overkill!

Ian

"Tom Serkowski" > wrote in message
m...
> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html
>
> Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to recieve instruction
> - including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship to the
> instructor. Very scary.
>
> I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI allows a passenger
> to touch the controls, that is considered instruction in the TSA's
> eyes.
>
> The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL naturalization
> certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my certificate it
> says it is illegal to copy it.
>
> I called SSA today regarding another subject and also asked about
> this. The office person I talked to knew nothing. And of course the
> SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately on another
> call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.
>
> Tom Serkowski
> ASH-26E (5Z)

tango4

October 8th 04, 06:32 PM

How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on say a new 777? Do they
have to do it outside the borders of the US or do they teach 'em in a sim
and let 'em loose on the real thing straight away?

:-J

Ian

"tango4" > wrote in message
...
> So I take it no visitors to the US can get any instruction? Has that
> killed all the flight schools offering cheaper flight training for
> European pilots?
>
> What about visiting pilots wanting a checkride before taking a club or FBO
> ship?
>
> Talk about overkill!
>
> Ian
>
>
> "Tom Serkowski" > wrote in message
> m...
>> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html
>>
>> Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to recieve instruction
>> - including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship to the
>> instructor. Very scary.
>>
>> I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI allows a passenger
>> to touch the controls, that is considered instruction in the TSA's
>> eyes.
>>
>> The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL naturalization
>> certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my certificate it
>> says it is illegal to copy it.
>>
>> I called SSA today regarding another subject and also asked about
>> this. The office person I talked to knew nothing. And of course the
>> SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately on another
>> call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.
>>
>> Tom Serkowski
>> ASH-26E (5Z)
>
>

F.L. Whiteley

October 8th 04, 06:38 PM

"Tom Serkowski" > wrote in message
m...
> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html
>
> Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to recieve instruction
> - including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship to the
> instructor. Very scary.
>
> I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI allows a passenger
> to touch the controls, that is considered instruction in the TSA's
> eyes.
>
> The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL naturalization
> certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my certificate it
> says it is illegal to copy it.
>
> I called SSA today regarding another subject and also asked about
> this. The office person I talked to knew nothing. And of course the
> SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately on another
> call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.
>
> Tom Serkowski
> ASH-26E (5Z)
It also appears encompass some fees I gather, for each type. Furthermore it
appears all employees (paid or not, to include club members providing
volunteer services) will need recurring security training. It was suggested
some months ago that clubs/operations appoint a security contact and run an
audit.

You could write your elected reps about the implications (or lack of
necessity WRT soaring). Ask if they think this will be as effective as
stopping truck-bombs.

Frank Whiteley

Stefan

October 8th 04, 06:46 PM

tango4 wrote:

> How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on say a new 777?

This is no issue, as everybody is buying Airbus planes anyway. :-)

Stefan

Stewart Kissel

October 8th 04, 06:50 PM

Tom-

Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
just called him.

At 18:00 08 October 2004, Tango4 wrote:
>How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on
>say a new 777? Do they
>have to do it outside the borders of the US or do they
>teach 'em in a sim
>and let 'em loose on the real thing straight away?
>
>:-J
>
>Ian
>
>
>'tango4' wrote in message
...
>> So I take it no visitors to the US can get any instruction?
>>Has that
>> killed all the flight schools offering cheaper flight
>>training for
>> European pilots?
>>
>> What about visiting pilots wanting a checkride before
>>taking a club or FBO
>> ship?
>>
>> Talk about overkill!
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>> 'Tom Serkowski' wrote in message
>> m...
>>> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html
>>>
>>> Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to
>>>recieve instruction
>>> - including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship
>>>to the
>>> instructor. Very scary.
>>>
>>> I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI
>>>allows a passenger
>>> to touch the controls, that is considered instruction
>>>in the TSA's
>>> eyes.
>>>
>>> The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL
>>>naturalization
>>> certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my
>>>certificate it
>>> says it is illegal to copy it.
>>>
>>> I called SSA today regarding another subject and also
>>>asked about
>>> this. The office person I talked to knew nothing.
>>> And of course the
>>> SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately
>>>on another
>>> call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.
>>>
>>> Tom Serkowski
>>> ASH-26E (5Z)
>>
>>
>
>
>

Dave Martin

October 8th 04, 06:54 PM

It just needs an addition to

America Land of the Free -- if you can afford it.

All the paperwork and a $130dollar alien fee seems
to put the stop on the odd flight when visiting the
country for a holiday

Dave

Shawn

October 8th 04, 06:56 PM

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> "Tom Serkowski" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html
>>
>>Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to recieve instruction
>>- including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship to the
>>instructor. Very scary.
>>
>>I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI allows a passenger
>>to touch the controls, that is considered instruction in the TSA's
>>eyes.
>>
>>The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL naturalization
>>certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my certificate it
>>says it is illegal to copy it.
>>
>>I called SSA today regarding another subject and also asked about
>>this. The office person I talked to knew nothing. And of course the
>>SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately on another
>>call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.
>>
>>Tom Serkowski
>>ASH-26E (5Z)
>
> It also appears encompass some fees I gather, for each type. Furthermore it
> appears all employees (paid or not, to include club members providing
> volunteer services) will need recurring security training. It was suggested
> some months ago that clubs/operations appoint a security contact and run an
> audit.
>
> You could write your elected reps about the implications (or lack of
> necessity WRT soaring). Ask if they think this will be as effective as
> stopping truck-bombs.

I suppose all this sound and fury is to distract attention from the
woefully lax security around container ships.

Shawn

F.L. Whiteley

October 8th 04, 06:59 PM

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> tango4 wrote:
>
> > How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on say a new 777?
>
> This is no issue, as everybody is buying Airbus planes anyway. :-)
>
> Stefan
>
Yes, thanks for contributing your tax euros to our tax dollars to allow
airlines such as Northwest to buy these with their government post 9/11
handout.

I particularly like the non-reclining seat (1-2") so that the passenger
behind me doesn't have the view of the TV made awkward. Hopefully one day
there will be more than QVC and other basic cable channels on offer.
Frontier has painted talking animal heads on their fleet of 319's.

Anyway, 500 Boeing design engineers are now located in Moscow, Russia and
the 7E7 wings will be built in Japan. Boeing employees are not even allowed
to take pictures of the production of Boeing wings, the technology was so
highly guarded. But then, Boeing is not what it used to be either.

Frank Whiteley

Tony Verhulst

October 8th 04, 07:09 PM

> I suppose all this sound and fury is to distract attention from the
> woefully lax security around container ships.

That, and much more. I've heard the current state of affairs called
"security theater" - the pretense of adding security while, in fact,
accomplishing nothing.

If the current rules *must* be implemented. Certainly glider and balloon
training could be exempted. I mean, I can just see one of Osama's
colleagues showing up at my club..... not!

Tony V.

ADP

October 8th 04, 08:14 PM

How they ever got a single Airbus piece of crap in the air is beyond me.
It simply proves that you can undercut any decent aircraft on price
and the Airlines will go for it. No wonder the Airlines can't survive!

Allan

"F.L. Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> tango4 wrote:
>>
>> > How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on say a new 777?
>>
>> This is no issue, as everybody is buying Airbus planes anyway. :-)
>>
>> Stefan
>>
> Yes, thanks for contributing your tax euros to our tax dollars to allow
> airlines such as Northwest to buy these with their government post 9/11
> handout.
>
> I particularly like the non-reclining seat (1-2") so that the passenger
> behind me doesn't have the view of the TV made awkward. Hopefully one day
> there will be more than QVC and other basic cable channels on offer.
> Frontier has painted talking animal heads on their fleet of 319's.
>
> Anyway, 500 Boeing design engineers are now located in Moscow, Russia and
> the 7E7 wings will be built in Japan. Boeing employees are not even
> allowed
> to take pictures of the production of Boeing wings, the technology was so
> highly guarded. But then, Boeing is not what it used to be either.
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
>

Steve Hill

October 8th 04, 08:34 PM

(thinking back to high school)....FIGHT!!!! FIGHT!!!!!

You tell em...all I can say is I own a manufacturing plant, and am a direct
Vendor the Boeing Company, for sheet metal and machined parts and
assemblies...and we sure as hell are busy for noone buying their
airplanes...

I will further say, that most of my neighbors are airlines pilots, and given
the choice, they'd prefer to Fly Boeing.

Tony Verhulst

October 8th 04, 08:47 PM

> I will further say, that most of my neighbors are airlines pilots, and given
> the choice, they'd prefer to Fly Boeing.

A former club member was a retired American Airlines 727 driver. A label
on his flight bag read:

"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going"

:-)

Tony V.

P.S. Airbus makes good airplanes I but MUCH prefer the Boeing fly by
wire philosophy.

Janusz Kesik

October 8th 04, 08:55 PM

U=BFytkownik ADP > w wiadomo=B6ci do grup =
dyskusyjnych ...
> How they ever got a single Airbus piece of crap in the air is beyond =
me.
> It simply proves that you can undercut any decent aircraft on price
> and the Airlines will go for it. No wonder the Airlines can't =
survive!
>=20
> Allan

O yes... Everything which hasn't been made in America must be crap... :D =
ROTFL!

JK

[email protected]

October 8th 04, 09:24 PM

There's probably an exemption if you can prove you're related to the
Saudi royal family.

Steve Hill

October 8th 04, 10:45 PM

Janusz wrote:
O yes... Everything which hasn't been made in America must be crap... :D =
ROTFL!

It's great to see such supportive spirit for your homeland products
Janusz...I happen to fly a German built sailplane...and I think it's
excellent...prior to that I had an SZD-36 Cobra and loved it...it was
Polish...I've driven English cars, Italian cars, German cars they were all
neat to own...

While I appreciate your stance on supporting your countries goods...I don't
feel the same as you, that I have to mock other countries goods...or try to
put other people down simply because of a minor disagreement.

I do have alot of respect for the fact that Boeing pays for the development
of its aircraft themselves. They take all the risk. Capitalism at its
finest. I understand they are now offloading lots of work to Poland, as well
as the rest of the world...truly a global company.

Perhaps we can all agree that we should all be proud of our own countries
developments particularly with regard to soaring...and not in any way be
destructive as fellow pilots and friends.

Just a thought.

Steve.

Janusz Kesik

October 8th 04, 11:28 PM

Well,=20

Sorry if offended... Sometimes it just makes me nervous if I hear =
another man speaking of Poland as a country with b&w tv sets and queues =
in front of empty shops. Things have changed a lot, but lots of people =
didn't notice it at all. By the way, I believe it's Boeing who moves =
much more work to Poland than Airbus. The EADS production is marginal =
compared to all the stuff we make for Boeing. There was recently an =
order for some parts for upgrading the Navy's F-14s I heard.

Regards,

--=20
Janusz Kesik

-------------
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl
See Breslau (Wroclaw) in photography
From the XIX Century, through the 1945 Festung Breslau, to the photos =
taken today morning...

Shawn

October 8th 04, 11:51 PM

Janusz Kesik wrote:
> U¿ytkownik ADP > w wiadomo¶ci do grup dyskusyjnych ...
>
>>How they ever got a single Airbus piece of crap in the air is beyond me.
>>It simply proves that you can undercut any decent aircraft on price
>>and the Airlines will go for it. No wonder the Airlines can't survive!
>>
>>Allan
>
>
> O yes... Everything which hasn't been made in America must be crap... :D ROTFL!

No, no, not at all. I love my 'Skeeter. Just Air Bust is crap :-)

Shawn

Leon McAtee

October 9th 04, 01:58 AM

(Tom Serkowski) wrote in message >...

> I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI allows a passenger
> to touch the controls, that is considered instruction in the TSA's
> eyes.

70 some years ago in a little republic about 4000 miles East of D.C.
they did similar things. But they had not yet heard of TLA's (Three
Letter Acronyms), just 2.

These are nothing but feel good measures that provide job
justification for a few and inconvience the many.

If they were really concerned about security why, when I got my ramp
pass and gate code, was I not asked to show - any - form of
identification.

Not that any of this matters anyway. If I were inclined to commit
mayhem I'd head to the local truck stop, not the airport.
=============================
Leon McAtee
"Just say no" in November

BTIZ

October 9th 04, 02:01 AM

and Dave C is a TSA authority how?

"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
> Tom-
>
> Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
> just called him.
>
>
>
> At 18:00 08 October 2004, Tango4 wrote:
>>How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on
>>say a new 777? Do they
>>have to do it outside the borders of the US or do they
>>teach 'em in a sim
>>and let 'em loose on the real thing straight away?
>>
>>:-J
>>
>>Ian
>>
>>
>>'tango4' wrote in message
...
>>> So I take it no visitors to the US can get any instruction?
>>>Has that
>>> killed all the flight schools offering cheaper flight
>>>training for
>>> European pilots?
>>>
>>> What about visiting pilots wanting a checkride before
>>>taking a club or FBO
>>> ship?
>>>
>>> Talk about overkill!
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Tom Serkowski' wrote in message
>>> m...
>>>> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html
>>>>
>>>> Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to
>>>>recieve instruction
>>>> - including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship
>>>>to the
>>>> instructor. Very scary.
>>>>
>>>> I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI
>>>>allows a passenger
>>>> to touch the controls, that is considered instruction
>>>>in the TSA's
>>>> eyes.
>>>>
>>>> The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL
>>>>naturalization
>>>> certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my
>>>>certificate it
>>>> says it is illegal to copy it.
>>>>
>>>> I called SSA today regarding another subject and also
>>>>asked about
>>>> this. The office person I talked to knew nothing.
>>>> And of course the
>>>> SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately
>>>>on another
>>>> call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Serkowski
>>>> ASH-26E (5Z)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Stewart Kissel

October 9th 04, 03:46 AM

Nope, just the guy who runs the place I get my BFR
at

At 01:24 09 October 2004, Btiz wrote:
>and Dave C is a TSA authority how?
>
>'Stewart Kissel' wrote in
>message ...
>> Tom-
>>
>> Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
>> just called him.
>>
>>
>>
>> At 18:00 08 October 2004, Tango4 wrote:
>>>How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on
>>>say a new 777? Do they
>>>have to do it outside the borders of the US or do they
>>>teach 'em in a sim
>>>and let 'em loose on the real thing straight away?
>>>
>>>:-J
>>>
>>>Ian
>>>
>>>
>>>'tango4' wrote in message
...
>>>> So I take it no visitors to the US can get any instruction?
>>>>Has that
>>>> killed all the flight schools offering cheaper flight
>>>>training for
>>>> European pilots?
>>>>
>>>> What about visiting pilots wanting a checkride before
>>>>taking a club or FBO
>>>> ship?
>>>>
>>>> Talk about overkill!
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Tom Serkowski' wrote in message
>>>> m...
>>>>> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to
>>>>>recieve instruction
>>>>> - including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship
>>>>>to the
>>>>> instructor. Very scary.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI
>>>>>allows a passenger
>>>>> to touch the controls, that is considered instruction
>>>>>in the TSA's
>>>>> eyes.
>>>>>
>>>>> The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL
>>>>>naturalization
>>>>> certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my
>>>>>certificate it
>>>>> says it is illegal to copy it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I called SSA today regarding another subject and also
>>>>>asked about
>>>>> this. The office person I talked to knew nothing.
>>>>> And of course the
>>>>> SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately
>>>>>on another
>>>>> call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Serkowski
>>>>> ASH-26E (5Z)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Chip Fitzpatrick

October 9th 04, 03:48 AM

Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

Any U.S. citizen applying for training, including recurrent training,
in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds must present the
flight school or flight instructor with evidence of U.S. citizenship.
Evidence may be shown by one of the following:
Valid unexpired U.S. passport
Original birth certificate and government-issued picture ID
Original U.S. naturalization or citizenship certificate with raised
seal and government-issued picture ID
Original certificate of U.S. citizenship and government-issued picture
ID
The flight school or flight instructor will retain a copy of the
documentation for a period of 5 years.
Impact to flight schools and freelance flight instructors:

Any flight school or a freelance flight instructor providing training
in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds must comply with the
following:
Determine whether an individual is an U.S. citizen. Evidence may be
shown by one of the following:
Valid unexpired U.S. passport
Original birth certificate and government-issued picture ID
Original U.S. naturalization or citizenship certificate with raised
seal and government-issued picture ID
Original certificate of U.S. citizenship and government-issued picture
ID
Register with TSA if providing training to foreign students
Notify TSA when a foreign applicant requests training
Submit to TSA a photo of the foreign applicant after he or she first
arrives for training
For recurrent training, the following must also be submitted to TSA:
Foreign applicant's full name
TSA/DOJ identification number
Copy of foreign applicant's current, unexpired passport and visa
Training details
Photo of the foreign applicant after he or she first arrives for
training
Retain applicant information and TSA approval records for five years.
The records are subject to TSA audit.
Immediately terminate a foreign applicant's training if informed by
TSA the applicant poses a threat to aviation or national security.
Ground school and demonstration flights are exempt from the rule and
recurrent training is exempt from the fingerprints requirement.
Flight schools and freelance flight instructors, regardless of whether
they are training foreign students, must provide initial and annual
recurrent "security awareness training" for each flight school
employee that has a direct contact with a flight school student
(regardless of citizenship or nationality).
Flight school employees must receive the initial security awareness
training by January 18, 2005. Employees hired after January 18, 2005
must receive the training within 60 days of being hired.
Schools must maintain a record of such training for one year after the
employee leaves the school. Again, these records are subject to TSA
and FAA audit.
TSA's initial online security awareness training program will be
available on October 30, 2004 at www.tsa.gov.
Flight schools, including freelance flight instructors, that fail to
comply with the rule's requirements may be subject to enforcement
action.

Bernie Lewis

October 9th 04, 04:13 AM

wrote in message . com>...
> There's probably an exemption if you can prove you're related to the
> Saudi royal family.

It appears that many of you have not read the new rules. As a CFI, if
the worst that I have to do is check someones birth certificate, I
expect I can live with that. If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
blow something up with an aircraft....It will be worth it. I also
suspect that many of those who say it infringes on their civil
liberties would be the first to ask why more wasn't done to gaurd
against suicide pilots, should something happen in the future with a
light airplane.

Bernie VR

Marc Ramsey

October 9th 04, 04:23 AM

Bernie Lewis wrote:
> If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
> blow something up with an aircraft....

Rag head?

Nyal Williams

October 9th 04, 04:31 AM

At 03:48 09 October 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>Bernie Lewis wrote:
>> If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
>> blow something up with an aircraft....
>
>Rag head?
>

You know, a glider pilot wearing a terry cloth hat.
In other words, anyone outside my own culture.

Pete Brown

October 9th 04, 06:31 AM

This is the place to start to figure out how to work through
the new TSA regs for instructors with foreign pilots.

http://www.faasafety.gov/notices/2004-Sep/24_New_TSA_Rule_9-27-04.doc

--

Peter D. Brown
http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/

Dave Martin

October 9th 04, 09:54 AM

Having read through the paper work and some of the
arguments, in the context of larger aircraft and pilot
training a small price to to pay for security. In this
context many of the checks seem common sense and any
self respecting training establishment should be taking
their own similar security steps.

When it comes to small aircraft especially gliders
then it appears heavy handed and ill thought out. The
politicians as usual not knowing their 8rse from their
elbow and shoving a cork up their 8rse to prevent diarrhoea.

For existing licence holders, the question that needs
answering is what is training. A pilot with existing
licences, permits call it what you will, undergoing
say and annual or a site check flight is not training.

The big worry is that once this practice becomes established
in the USA, then aviation round the world will follow.
This will place a large burden on our sport which may
see some of the establishments forced out of business.

I also suspect the glider movement would soon pick
out the new ASH25 owner filling his ballast tanks with
explosives then setting off into the wide blue yonder
to blow something up.

Another thread asks abut flying lawyers, what about
flying politicians.........!

Pete Reinhart

October 9th 04, 02:27 PM

That's "Scarebus", Bubba.
Cheers!

"Shawn" > wrote in message
...
> Janusz Kesik wrote:
> > U¿ytkownik ADP > w wiadomo¶ci do grup
dyskusyjnych ...
> >
> >>How they ever got a single Airbus piece of crap in the air is beyond me.
> >>It simply proves that you can undercut any decent aircraft on price
> >>and the Airlines will go for it. No wonder the Airlines can't survive!
> >>
> >>Allan
> >
> >
> > O yes... Everything which hasn't been made in America must be crap... :D
ROTFL!
>
> No, no, not at all. I love my 'Skeeter. Just Air Bust is crap :-)
>
> Shawn

Marian Aldenhövel

October 9th 04, 02:49 PM

Hi,

> That's "Scarebus", Bubba.

Seen from the other side "Boeing" is the sound something
springy makes when it hits the ground.

Ciao, MM
--
Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn.
Fon +49 228 624013, Fax +49 228 624031.
http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de

Shawn

October 9th 04, 03:54 PM

Pete Reinhart wrote:
> That's "Scarebus", Bubba.
> Cheers!

Hehe! I stand (well sit) corrected.

> "Shawn" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Janusz Kesik wrote:
>>
>>>U¿ytkownik ADP > w wiadomo¶ci do grup
>
> dyskusyjnych ...
>
>>>>How they ever got a single Airbus piece of crap in the air is beyond me.
>>>>It simply proves that you can undercut any decent aircraft on price
>>>>and the Airlines will go for it. No wonder the Airlines can't survive!
>>>>
>>>>Allan
>>>
>>>
>>>O yes... Everything which hasn't been made in America must be crap... :D
>
> ROTFL!
>
>>No, no, not at all. I love my 'Skeeter. Just Air Bust is crap :-)

Jack

October 9th 04, 04:45 PM

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

> Yes, thanks for contributing your tax euros to our tax dollars to allow
> airlines such as Northwest to buy these ["Airbus planes"] with their
> government post 9/11 handout.

According to the US Treasury's Air Transportation Stabilization Board
website:

http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/atsb/recent-activity.shtml

Northwest Airlines <http://www.nwa.com> is _not_ among those airlines
who have applied for and received so-called "bailout" funds from the
Federal Government, nor are any of the other largest US Airlines, with
the exception of UAL who have yet to have any of their applications
approved.

The 319-320-321 series of Airbus aircraft fit the needs, and the pocket
books, of the several US Airlines who operate them better than the
competing models from Boeing. Sorry about that. Perhaps your company
operates differently and doesn't mind subsidizing competing suppliers
whose products/prices don't quite measure up to your needs. The
stockholders of NWA do not agree. The 40,000 employees of NWA are glad
that they are not among those workers whose airlines have declared
bankruptcy.

I prefer to "buy American" myself, and I wish that no Airbus aircraft
had ever been sold to a US Airline, but then I don't have to answer to a
Board of Directors nor a horde of stockholders about purchasing
decisions. Do you own and drive US-made automobiles Frank, or even ones
constructed primarily in N. America? I hope so.

Jack

Stewart Kissel

October 9th 04, 04:55 PM

http://www.geocities.com/mknemesis/airbus.html
Well don't be afraid to take a hard look at the tail-feathers
before you board one.

At 15:24 09 October 2004, Shawn wrote:
>Pete Reinhart wrote:
>> That's 'Scarebus', Bubba.
>> Cheers!
>
>Hehe! I stand (well sit) corrected.
>
>
>> 'Shawn' wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Janusz Kesik wrote:
>>>
>>>>U¿ytkownik ADP w wiadomo¶ci do grup
>>
>> dyskusyjnych ...
>>
>>>>>How they ever got a single Airbus piece of crap in
>>>>>the air is beyond me.
>>>>>It simply proves that you can undercut any decent aircraft
>>>>>on price
>>>>>and the Airlines will go for it. No wonder the Airlines
>>>>>can't survive!
>>>>>
>>>>>Allan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>O yes... Everything which hasn't been made in America
>>>>must be crap... :D
>>
>> ROTFL!
>>
>>>No, no, not at all. I love my 'Skeeter. Just Air
>>>Bust is crap :-)
>

[email protected]

October 9th 04, 09:23 PM

Marc Ramsey > writes:

> Bernie Lewis wrote:
>> If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
>> blow something up with an aircraft....

> Rag head?

People who fly Pooches ;)

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

October 9th 04, 09:23 PM

Dave Martin wrote:
> Another thread asks abut flying lawyers, what about
> flying politicians.........!

Well, Kerry for one ...

October 9th 04, 09:36 PM

Bernie Lewis wrote:
> wrote in message . com>...
>
>>There's probably an exemption if you can prove you're related to the
>>Saudi royal family.
>
> It appears that many of you have not read the new rules. As a CFI, if
> the worst that I have to do is check someones birth certificate, I
> expect I can live with that. If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
> blow something up with an aircraft....It will be worth it. I also

Abolishing general aviation completely would accomplish that.

Pass a law to force all privately owned light aircraft in any
shape or form to be handed in to the authorities for destruction
within the next six months. No exceptions. Including of course
microlights, gliders, hang-gliders, balloons etc.

Yes, that would keep probably more than one potential terrorist
from making the attempt.

Worth it ? You tell me.

CV

PS. As the next step in the program we could do away with aviation
altogether. Mankind survived for thousands of years without it.

Shawn

October 9th 04, 09:37 PM

CV wrote:
>
> Dave Martin wrote:
>
>> Another thread asks abut flying lawyers, what about
>> flying politicians.........!
>
>
> Well, Kerry for one ...
>
He's also a lawyer. Sounds scary, then I think about W at the stick.
Glad I didn't live in Texas back in his guard days (or now for FTM).

Shawn

jimk

October 10th 04, 12:29 AM

"Bernie Lewis" > wrote in message
om...
> wrote in message
. com>...
> > There's probably an exemption if you can prove you're related to the
> > Saudi royal family.
>
> It appears that many of you have not read the new rules. As a CFI, if
> the worst that I have to do is check someones birth certificate, I
> expect I can live with that. If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
> blow something up with an aircraft....It will be worth it. I also
> suspect that many of those who say it infringes on their civil
> liberties would be the first to ask why more wasn't done to gaurd
> against suicide pilots, should something happen in the future with a
> light airplane.
>
> Bernie VR

That's right. Just think if some foreign terrorist like Timothy McVeigh,
Terry Nichols, Ted Kazenski (Yea I probably spelled the names wrong) had
been able to get ahold of an airplane. This is sure to stop those kinds of
people....

Jim

Jim Vincent

October 10th 04, 12:55 AM

>> against suicide pilots, should something happen in the future with a
>> light airplane.
>>
>> Bernie VR
>
>That's right. Just think if some foreign terrorist like Timothy McVeigh,
>Terry Nichols, Ted Kazenski (Yea I probably spelled the names wrong) had
>been able to get ahold of an airplane. This is sure to stop those kinds of
>people....

Whoaaa....you up and dun it now! George W is gonna get you now. He's gonna
stay the course, he's got nuclar wepons, and he's gonna get terrists like you.

Jim Vincent
N483SZ

Eric Greenwell

October 10th 04, 01:54 AM

Bernie Lewis wrote:
> wrote in message . com>...
>
>>There's probably an exemption if you can prove you're related to the
>>Saudi royal family.
>
>
> It appears that many of you have not read the new rules. As a CFI, if
> the worst that I have to do is check someones birth certificate, I
> expect I can live with that. If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
> blow something up with an aircraft....It will be worth it.

And if it doesn't, is it still worth it?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

F.L. Whiteley

October 10th 04, 02:23 AM

hmm, I'll have to check back with Lou Dobbs on that one.

Dodge and Ford, but clearly many Canadian parts;^)

Frank

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
> F.L. Whiteley wrote:
>
> > Yes, thanks for contributing your tax euros to our tax dollars to allow
> > airlines such as Northwest to buy these ["Airbus planes"] with their
> > government post 9/11 handout.
>
> According to the US Treasury's Air Transportation Stabilization Board
> website:
>
> http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/atsb/recent-activity.shtml
>
> Northwest Airlines <http://www.nwa.com> is _not_ among those airlines
> who have applied for and received so-called "bailout" funds from the
> Federal Government, nor are any of the other largest US Airlines, with
> the exception of UAL who have yet to have any of their applications
> approved.
>
> The 319-320-321 series of Airbus aircraft fit the needs, and the pocket
> books, of the several US Airlines who operate them better than the
> competing models from Boeing. Sorry about that. Perhaps your company
> operates differently and doesn't mind subsidizing competing suppliers
> whose products/prices don't quite measure up to your needs. The
> stockholders of NWA do not agree. The 40,000 employees of NWA are glad
> that they are not among those workers whose airlines have declared
> bankruptcy.
>
> I prefer to "buy American" myself, and I wish that no Airbus aircraft
> had ever been sold to a US Airline, but then I don't have to answer to a
> Board of Directors nor a horde of stockholders about purchasing
> decisions. Do you own and drive US-made automobiles Frank, or even ones
> constructed primarily in N. America? I hope so.
>
>
> Jack

John Gilbert

October 10th 04, 07:16 AM

(Bernie Lewis) wrote in message >...
> wrote in message . com>...
> > There's probably an exemption if you can prove you're related to the
> > Saudi royal family.
>
> It appears that many of you have not read the new rules. As a CFI, if
> the worst that I have to do is check someones birth certificate, I
> expect I can live with that. If it keeps ONE rag head from trying to
> blow something up with an aircraft....It will be worth it. I also
> suspect that many of those who say it infringes on their civil
> liberties would be the first to ask why more wasn't done to gaurd
> against suicide pilots, should something happen in the future with a
> light airplane.
>
> Bernie VR

Bernie,

It appears that you have not read the rules. I have broken it up into
two sections, "if you never teach a foreign person", and "if a foreign
person wants training". Note that the former section is longer than
the latter, that is, most of the work needs to be done whether or not
you ever see a foreign student.

You have to keep records of ALL applicants for five years, retain
records of security training, and if your paperwork fails the audit,
you are subject to enforcement action, who knows what penalty you are
liable for.

Sure makes me want to go get my CFIG.
John

"if you never teach a foreign person"
From http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html:
Flight schools and freelance flight instructors:
o Determine whether an individual is an U.S. citizen.
o Retain applicant information and TSA approval records for
five years.
o The records are subject to TSA audit.
* Flight schools and freelance flight instructors, regardless of
whether they are training foreign students, must provide initial and
annual recurrent "security awareness training" for each flight school
employee that has a direct contact with a flight school student
(regardless of citizenship or nationality).
o Flight school employees must receive the initial security
awareness training by January 18, 2005. Employees hired after January
18, 2005 must receive the training within 60 days of being hired.
o Schools must maintain a record of such training for one
year after the employee leaves the school. Again, these records are
subject to TSA and FAA audit.
o TSA's initial online security awareness training program
will be available on October 30, 2004 at www.tsa.gov.
* Flight schools, including freelance flight instructors, that
fail to comply with the rule's requirements may be subject to
enforcement action.

"if a foreign person wants training"
o Register with TSA if providing training to foreign
students
o Notify TSA when a foreign applicant requests training
o Submit to TSA a photo of the foreign applicant after he or
she first arrives for training
o For recurrent training, the following must also be
submitted to TSA:
+ Foreign applicant's full name
+ TSA/DOJ identification number
+ Copy of foreign applicant's current, unexpired
passport and visa
+ Training details
+ Photo of the foreign applicant after he or she first
arrives for training
o Immediately terminate a foreign applicant's training if
informed by TSA the applicant poses a threat to aviation or national
security.
* Ground school and demonstration flights are exempt from the rule
and recurrent training is exempt from the fingerprints requirement.

F.L. Whiteley

October 10th 04, 10:21 AM

> > According to the US Treasury's Air Transportation Stabilization Board
> > website:
> >
> >
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/atsb/recent-activity.shtml
> >
> > Northwest Airlines <http://www.nwa.com> is _not_ among those airlines
> > who have applied for and received so-called "bailout" funds from the
> > Federal Government, nor are any of the other largest US Airlines, with
> > the exception of UAL who have yet to have any of their applications
> > approved.
> >
Interestingly, HR2926 authorized $15B, of which $10B were loan guarantees
(UAL case) and $5B in direct grants. Oddly, there is no mention of any
grant funds being requested nor dispersed via ATSB though the industry
stated losses were claimed to be $330M/day and would have qualified for the
grants. Lou Dobbs made the assertion on his 9/15 program that NWA had spent
$400M of these funds on Airbus acquisitions. That may have been citing the
documentary snippet 'American Jobs' that he was borrowing from that week. I
note there is no mention of this assertion in the transcripts of that day's
program. Nor have I found a retraction in subsequent programs. I e-mailed
CNN/Lou Dobbs for clarification on this assertion. Interestingly, I found
another assertion elsewhere that 50 percent of Airbus derives from US
sources8^) I have no real problem with globalized industries, other than
valued technologies are virtually given away. However, U.S. deflation is a
relatively painful process though it's at least 25 years overdue. The flip
side may mean we do things a heap smarter domestically sooner rather than
later.

Frank
[way off topic]

Judy Ruprecht

October 11th 04, 08:24 AM

Comments to the TSA Docket are being accepted through
October 20. Electronic submission at: http://dmses.dot.gov/submit/

Comments filed to date are available online through:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm
(Enter 19147 as the docket #)

The docket includes the following from SSA:

- Request for delayed implementation, for lack of means
to comply with the new rules & procedures ill-suited
to GA, particularly soaring

- Formal comments outlining rationale to amend the
new rules as applicable to GA, particularly soaring.
(There were inadvertently two copies of this posted...
one on letterhead and one without. Bodes well for my
'recordkeeping' skills, eh?)

- Petition for waiver from 49 USC 1552.

Judy

Andy Durbin

October 11th 04, 06:51 PM

Andy Durbin

October 11th 04, 06:58 PM

Stewart Kissel > wrote in message >...
> Tom-
>
> Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
> just called him.
>

I suggest that he needs to read the rule. I hold an FAA pilot
certificate but under the rule I cannot recieve instruction without a
security check. I am a US resident alien.

Andy

For Example John Smith

October 11th 04, 07:40 PM

Brent Sullivan, Libertarian candidate for US Congress, 18th Congressional
district of Texas.
Member of the Soaring Club of Houston. Mosquito owner; former PW5 owner.
Hope admitting that doesn't lose me the election!

"CV" > wrote in message
...
>
> Dave Martin wrote:
> > Another thread asks abut flying lawyers, what about
> > flying politicians.........!
>
> Well, Kerry for one ...
>

Lennie the Lurker

October 11th 04, 09:53 PM

Judy Ruprecht > wrote in message >...
><Snippage>

Judy, when is the date it's proposed to go into effect? I still have
that hour coming, but thanks to the quacks, have absolutely no idea
when I'll be able to have a day without driving into suicide driver
city. (Milwaukee)

Chip Fitzpatrick

October 12th 04, 01:46 AM

In the event you have trouble obtaining the requisite identification,
the enclosed link provides an excellent and approved alternative:

www.whitehouse.org/homeland/tattoo.asp

Chip Fitzpatrick

Jim Vincent

October 12th 04, 03:31 AM

>excellent and approved alternative:
>
>www.whitehouse.org/homeland/tattoo.asp
>
>Chip Fitzpatrick

Chip, is that to complement the micro chip encapsulated in your tongue ring
that you were showing off at the field last weekend?

Jim Vincent
N483SZ

acrawford

October 12th 04, 04:21 AM

As a "resident alien" this ruling strikes me as none to well thought
out. Interstingly, I assume (at least I hope) that when Immigration
issues a green card they do some verfication at the time. The card
also includes a photograph and a fingerprint. So, as far as I can
tell no new information is really being captured if agencies simply
talked to each other, but the flightschool (or rather our glider club)
is being made to jump through hoops with no added national security
and potentially a detrimental effect on flight safety if people are in
any way discouraged from taking additional or recurrent trainining.
Stunning.

I have filed a comment to the docket and encourage others
(particularily affected resident aliens) to do so also. Please, keep
them rational rather than emotional, but do file a comment.

P.S. This thing may take a while to work its way around to common
sense. So, if you need one within the next 3 months - absolutely do
it before the 20th lest you find yourself grounded waiting for your
instructor to receive 'TSA approval' to give you instruction (I really
hope I'm interpretting that wrongly).

Chip Fitzpatrick

October 12th 04, 10:49 AM

Jim,

you weren't supposed to give that away; State Secret.

Chip

(Jim Vincent) wrote in message >...
> >excellent and approved alternative:
> >
> >www.whitehouse.org/homeland/tattoo.asp
> >
> >Chip Fitzpatrick
>
> Chip, is that to complement the micro chip encapsulated in your tongue ring
> that you were showing off at the field last weekend?
>
> Jim Vincent
> N483SZ
>

Andy Durbin

October 12th 04, 10:09 PM

Judy Ruprecht > wrote in message >...
> Comments to the TSA Docket are being accepted through
> October 20. Electronic submission at: http://dmses.dot.gov/submit/
>
>
> Comments filed to date are available online through:
> http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm
> (Enter 19147 as the docket #)
>
> Judy

It's good to see that several regular contributors to RAS have posted
comments. However there have not been nearly enough. If you don't
think this rule affects you, you need to read it and think again.
Anyone that flies a glider in US, anyone that instructs in gliders in
US, every glider FBO in US, and every glider club that provides
instruction in US will be negatively affected by this rule. Some
instructors, some clubs, and some FBO may well cease to operate
because of this rule.

Read it and speak up before it's too late.

Andy

Mark James Boyd

October 13th 04, 11:25 PM

In article >,
Chip Fitzpatrick > wrote:
>Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
>that is required???

* DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,

plus their government-issued photo ID.

I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.

I also carry a government-issued photo ID (my Calif. State driver's
license) on all flights, as required by 67 Fed. Reg. 65857 (October 28,2002).

"According to FAA Administrator Marion Blakey, FAA expects the most
commonly used photo ID will be a valid driver's license issued by a U.S.
state, the District of Columbia, or a U.S. territory or possession.
Other suitable forms of identification under the new rules include
a valid federal or state ID card, a U.S. Armed Forces' ID, credentials
that authorize access to airport secure areas, or other identification
that the FAA accepts."

When I train pilots, since I don't normally carry a photocopier with me,
I will use a small digital camera to make a "copy" of their
pilot license and appropriate photo ID. Yes it is a headache to then
ensure the digital picture I took is somewhere I can find it for 5 years.
But this is the best I can do.

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.
Strawberry Aviation in Watsonville, CA, USA has lost a great deal of
business post 9/11 and expects to see worse. Hiro is the chief CFI there
and he has specialized in training Japanese pilots in the USA (they
fly from Japan to get the training, since it is so much cheaper).
I feel bad for him; he's providing a very worthwhile service.

For "rides" I'm not concerned, since these don't normally involve
the ridee touching the controls anyway.

On the other hand, student pilots coming out for the first day
(walk-ins) are a real challenge, since it is very unlikely
they will have citizen/nationality proof with them. And just like
car sales, I always feel I want to get them started, in a plane,
TODAY. This is definitely a "hassle" for them, and a business loss for me.

P.S. Does the license not apply because I'm not a "Federal employee?"
I'm gonna yawn at this nuance. If the FAA issued a license with
nationality info, and then tells me I shouldn't have relied upon that
for information, then I'm guessing there will be FAA employees with
more tempting necks on the chopping block than mine.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd

October 13th 04, 11:36 PM

In article >,
Andy Durbin > wrote:
>Stewart Kissel > wrote in message >...
>> Tom-
>>
>> Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
>> just called him.
>>
>
>
>I suggest that he needs to read the rule. I hold an FAA pilot
>certificate but under the rule I cannot recieve instruction without a
>security check. I am a US resident alien.

Andy,

You are now caught in the switches. The feds have
made a rule that may eventually retract your license. Get your Flight
Review before Oct. 20th, and you may get to fly for another two years
without ending up in a prison camp in Cuba for the rest of your life.

As a 1/4 Canadian, I'm a bit disgusted by the US Federal government's
CYA attitude towards GA. Maybe time to fly north, eh?

Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
anti-radar aircraft materials...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd

October 13th 04, 11:44 PM

Dave Martin > wrote:
>
>When it comes to small aircraft especially gliders
>then it appears heavy handed and ill thought out. The
>politicians as usual not knowing their 8rse from their
>elbow and shoving a cork up their 8rse to prevent diarrhoea.

LOL! Yes. I'd like to see AOPA and maybe SSA petition for relief
for "light" aircraft. Perhaps Light Sport Aircraft?
Under the idea that with such a low weight and slow
speed they pose little threat.

Given the unregulation of hang gliders, this seems like
not much of a stretch...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd

October 14th 04, 12:16 AM

In article >,
Judy Ruprecht > wrote:
>Comments to the TSA Docket are being accepted through
>October 20. Electronic submission at: http://dmses.dot.gov/submit/
>
>
>Comments filed to date are available online through:
>http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm
>(Enter 19147 as the docket #)
>
>The docket includes the following from SSA:
>
>- Request for delayed implementation, for lack of means
>to comply with the new rules & procedures ill-suited
>to GA, particularly soaring
>
>- Formal comments outlining rationale to amend the
>new rules as applicable to GA, particularly soaring.
>(There were inadvertently two copies of this posted...
>one on letterhead and one without. Bodes well for my
>'recordkeeping' skills, eh?)
>
>- Petition for waiver from 49 USC 1552.

Thanks Judy, my 2 cents went in.

Does anybody have a copy of the Simpson's episode
where Sideshow Bob crashes the Wright Flyer into
a building? I'd like to make a few dozen copies of this
labeled "The True Dangers of General Aviation Light Aircraft"
and send them to various FSDOs and TSA authorities.

There's nothing like mockery to make a (valid) point...

And if you don't like my ideas, please don't retaliate
with jello mix in my ballast tanks, ok? :PPP
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Jack

October 14th 04, 05:24 AM

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.

> ...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.

Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.

A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.

Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
should be doing.

Jack

Eric Greenwell

October 14th 04, 07:08 AM

Bruce Greeff

October 14th 04, 07:13 AM

Jack wrote:
> Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
>> Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.
>
>
>> ...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.
>
>
>
> Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
> Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.
>
> A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
> requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.
>
> Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
> enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
> should be doing.
>
>
> Jack
Scuse me while I shoot myself in the other foot...

The political hoopla and nationalistic fervour over in the USA is amusing from a
distance - clearly freedom is just a nice idea on a piece of paper.

Simple economics by the way here - Mike Beachyhead in Cape Town runs one of two
heavy jet test pilot schools in the world. He can't keep up at present , you can
guess why. Pilot follows a very simple procedure to present credentials. Flies
into Cape Town international - taxis right past the row of black painted
military hardware. Clears customs and goes flying. Costs a hell of a lot less
than in the USA, weather is generally predictable, location is a lot nicer than
the US alternative and he never gets the third degree "we dont trust foreigners"
treatment. Ditto for the other flying schools.

On the gliding front - Europeans find they can fly in, have two weeks of family
holiday and have a soaring safari, for less than the cost of a week in
{substitute any popular European resort}

All I can see from all this red tape and hypocrisy is a weakening of the
training institutions and increasing costs. Some will exit the business, a lot
of folk will decide the effort is not worth it and give up, or never take up
flying, and the country will be poorer for it. I suppose the current incumbents
at FAA will have less real work to do into the bargain, for a while. But with
decreasing activity will come decreasing budgets (you can't beat the security
drum forever) Some years ago there was no question about what country led the
world in general aviation, light aircraft manufacture, was home to the EAA etc.
Now, the options are much wider, and cheaper, and often better in places like
Poland, and Slovenia and even tiny economies like New Zealand and South Africa.
A bit sad really.

Tom Serkowski

October 14th 04, 02:43 PM

Mark, read the reg again. As a US citizen you will be required to
prove your citizenship with original "papers" such as birth
certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate every time you
meet a new CFI. This CFI must make a copy and hopefully store it
where it won't get stolen for identity theft. See below for excerpt
of regulation.

If your CFI is a foreign national, he still has to do this, along with
himself going through the 3rd degree and $130 each time he wants
instruction. So the TSA trusts this foreigh national with your
identity, but not with taking flight lessons.

Granted it's a stretch, but I think the pilot community in the USA is
experiencing the first signs of what the non-Arian population of
pre-WWII Germany felt.

-Tom

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

"As long as it's just the other guy losing his freedoms, I don't care.
But when it's my turn, I sure hope there's someone left to help me!"
Stupid Populace

(h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense
endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a
citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense
endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.
(1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or
nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or
her:
(i) Valid, unexpired United States passport;
(ii) Original or government-issued certified birth certificate of
the United States, American Samoa, or Swains Island, together with a
government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iii) Original United States naturalization certificate with
raised
seal, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the U.S.
Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS) or the U.S. Immigration and
Naturalization Service (INS) (Form N-550 or Form N-570), together with
a government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iv) Original certification of birth abroad with raised seal, U.S.
Department of State Form FS-545, or U.S. Department of State Form DS-
1350, together with a government-issued picture identification of the
individual;
(v) Original certificate of United States citizenship with raised
seal, a Certificate of United States Citizenship issued by the USCIS
or
INS (Form N-560 or Form N-561), or a Certificate of Repatriation
issued
by the USCIS or INS (Form N-581), together with a government-issued
picture identification of the individual; or
(vi) In the case of flight training provided to a Federal employee
(including military personnel) pursuant to a contract between a
Federal
agency and a flight school, the agency's written certification as to
its employee's United States citizenship or nationality, together with
the employee's government-issued credentials or other Federally-issued
picture identification.

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<416dab5f$1@darkstar>...
> In article >,
> Chip Fitzpatrick > wrote:
> >Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
> >that is required???
>
> * DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
> Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,
>
> plus their government-issued photo ID.
>
>
>
> I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
> This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
> my nationality.
... etc ...

acrawford

October 14th 04, 02:51 PM

I happen to be a "resident alien" -i.e. green card holder rather than
a Citizen. I live here and have held a US pilot certificate for many
years both Glider and SEL.

There are a lot of people like myself who call this country home who
will have to jump through hoops just to get a BFR (I don't work for an
airline so doesn't appear to qualify as Category 4), or if we wanted
to work on a new rating, perhaps simply if I were to show up at a
glider operation for a couple of days and wanted a "check out" - that
would be a new training event at a new flight school - OK that'll be
$130, a repeat investigation and sorry sir you can't get a checkout
until we get TSA approval. Does that make any sense?, does that add
to flight safety or rather detract from it by discouraging additional
training?

As I interpret the ruling this is not a 1 time vetting of the person,
this is an approval process for each new type of "training" that the
"alien" seeks.

Andrew Warbrick

October 14th 04, 03:22 PM

Strikes me the US has got it's priorities wrong again.
I recently passed through Minneapolis international
without having to go through a security check, and
this was while Airforce One was parked on the apron!
At every single other airport on this three flights
out, three flights back, trip I had to go through security!

If they think they can stop 9-11 style terrorists getting
flight instruction they're sadly mistaken, the ba$tards
will just get trained in another country.

At 14:18 14 October 2004, Acrawford wrote:
>I happen to be a 'resident alien' -i.e. green card
>holder rather than
>a Citizen. I live here and have held a US pilot certificate
>for many
>years both Glider and SEL.
>
>There are a lot of people like myself who call this
>country home who
>will have to jump through hoops just to get a BFR (I
>don't work for an
>airline so doesn't appear to qualify as Category 4),
>or if we wanted
>to work on a new rating, perhaps simply if I were to
>show up at a
>glider operation for a couple of days and wanted a
>'check out' - that
>would be a new training event at a new flight school
>- OK that'll be
>$130, a repeat investigation and sorry sir you can't
>get a checkout
>until we get TSA approval. Does that make any sense?,
>does that add
>to flight safety or rather detract from it by discouraging
>additional
>training?
>
>As I interpret the ruling this is not a 1 time vetting
>of the person,
>this is an approval process for each new type of 'training'
>that the
>'alien' seeks.
>

Marian Aldenhövel

October 14th 04, 03:46 PM

Hi,

> the ba$tards will just get trained in another country.

They can even get their training in the US under the new rules
as well.

What's to stop them? No security in the world can check the minds
of people and 130$ are nothing in the budget of even a one-man
terrorist-organisation.

Ciao, MM
--
Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn.
Fon +49 228 624013, Fax +49 228 624031.
http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de
"FOUR MORE BEERS!"

Tony Verhulst

October 14th 04, 04:16 PM

> I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
> This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
> my nationality.

When I became a US citizen, I sent the required letter of notification
to Oklahoma city. Several weeks later I received my new certificate with
"Nationality - USA" on it. At no point did I submit any documentation
proving that I was what I said I was - they simply took my word for it.
Hardly "written certification attesting to my nationality", IMHO.

Tony V.

Stewart Kissel

October 14th 04, 07:03 PM

Ok, for the sake of argument...let's say somewhere,
somebody in the TSA has done some research and can
point out how this might help the war on terror...and
that glider pilots should not be whining.

How do the John Walker Lindh's of the world fit into
this plan? And I would assume in this day and age...an
instructor would notify authorities of strange behaviour
of a student...regardless of his/her nationality.l

At 15:42 14 October 2004, Tony Verhulst wrote:
>
>> I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says:
>> Nationality - USA.
>> This is a federal agency written certification attesting
>>to
>> my nationality.
>
>When I became a US citizen, I sent the required letter
>of notification
>to Oklahoma city. Several weeks later I received my
>new certificate with
> 'Nationality - USA' on it. At no point did I submit
>any documentation
>proving that I was what I said I was - they simply
>took my word for it.
>Hardly 'written certification attesting to my nationality',
>IMHO.
>
>Tony V.
>
>

Andy Durbin

October 14th 04, 08:20 PM

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message >
> Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
> any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
> general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
> anti-radar aircraft materials...

Been an AOPA member since 1989 and getting an early flight review
before Oct 20 is being seriously considered.

I may be able to keep flying myself but I won't be giving any more
instruction. No more "wings" hours for a beer, no more flight reviews
for friends and aircraft partners, no more tail wheel instruction
because it's fun. Why would an American citizen want me as an alien
to have copies of all their nationality papers. Hell, I could take
their identity, get flight training in an MD-11 (that I can already
fly, I just don't do landings) and go hit a building somewhere.

Andy

Andy Durbin

October 14th 04, 08:25 PM

(acrawford) wrote in message >...
> As a "resident alien" this ruling strikes me as none to well thought
> out. Interstingly, I assume (at least I hope) that when Immigration
> issues a green card they do some verfication at the time. The card
> also includes a photograph and a fingerprint. So, as far as I can
> tell no new information is really being captured if agencies simply
> talked to each other, but the flightschool (or rather our glider club)
> is being made to jump through hoops with no added national security
> and potentially a detrimental effect on flight safety if people are in
> any way discouraged from taking additional or recurrent trainining.
> Stunning.

US resident aliens may be interest in this email exchange I just had
with AFSP

Me to AFSP:

Your FAQ page includes the following statement

"NOTE: At this time, U.S. citizens, nationals, and certain aliens are
not required to use the AFSP. If you have any questions regarding
qualification for the AFSP, contact your flight training provider."

I am a US resident alien living permanently in US. I have held an FAA
pilot certificate since 1979. Am I included in the "certain aliens
not required to use the AFSP". I contacted my local Glider Flight
School and they were not able to answer this question and had little
knowledge of the impact of the new rule on flight training.

Thank you for your assistance

Andrew Durbin

their reply:

Mr. Durbin,

Currently we do not have anyone who falls under that special class of
individuals. You are still subject to the rule, even though you are a
resident alien.

Regards,
AFSP HELP DESK

Marc Ramsey

October 14th 04, 09:13 PM

Andy Durbin wrote:
> Mr. Durbin,
>
> Currently we do not have anyone who falls under that special class of
> individuals. You are still subject to the rule, even though you are a
> resident alien.
>
> Regards,
> AFSP HELP DESK

The "special class of individuals" is no doubt being reserved for Saudi
nationals, when their government voices their objection to our fearless
leader...

Marc

Stewart Kissel

October 14th 04, 10:20 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/10/14/tsa.party/index.html

Well at least we know where those TSA increased fees
are going for :(

Mark James Boyd

October 14th 04, 11:33 PM

In article >,
Tom Serkowski > wrote:
>Mark, read the reg again. As a US citizen you will be required to
>prove your citizenship with original "papers" such as birth
>certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate every time you
>meet a new CFI. This CFI must make a copy and hopefully store it
>where it won't get stolen for identity theft. See below for excerpt
>of regulation.

Tom,

You may be right. A key factor here is where the FAA gets the
information printed under the "nationality" section of the FAA
license. If this is simply a reprint of the user-supplied information,
then (even by appeal for exception) there is no validity to
it as a nationality proof.

And it seems the "federal employee" section is more clear in the
verbiage you include.

Methinks we are heading towards a situation like Europe,
where as a citizen I must have a passport on me at all times to
be in my own country...it's a shame that the presumption may become
that one does NOT belong here...

>
>If your CFI is a foreign national, he still has to do this, along with
>himself going through the 3rd degree and $130 each time he wants
>instruction. So the TSA trusts this foreigh national with your
>identity, but not with taking flight lessons.
>
>Granted it's a stretch, but I think the pilot community in the USA is
>experiencing the first signs of what the non-Arian population of
>pre-WWII Germany felt.
>
>-Tom
>
>"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
>security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
>
>"As long as it's just the other guy losing his freedoms, I don't care.
> But when it's my turn, I sure hope there's someone left to help me!"
>Stupid Populace
>
> (h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense
>endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a
>citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense
>endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.
> (1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or
>nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or
>her:
> (i) Valid, unexpired United States passport;
> (ii) Original or government-issued certified birth certificate of
>the United States, American Samoa, or Swains Island, together with a
>government-issued picture identification of the individual;
> (iii) Original United States naturalization certificate with
>raised
>seal, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the U.S.
>Citizenship
>and Immigration Services (USCIS) or the U.S. Immigration and
>Naturalization Service (INS) (Form N-550 or Form N-570), together with
>a government-issued picture identification of the individual;
> (iv) Original certification of birth abroad with raised seal, U.S.
>Department of State Form FS-545, or U.S. Department of State Form DS-
>1350, together with a government-issued picture identification of the
>individual;
> (v) Original certificate of United States citizenship with raised
>seal, a Certificate of United States Citizenship issued by the USCIS
>or
>INS (Form N-560 or Form N-561), or a Certificate of Repatriation
>issued
>by the USCIS or INS (Form N-581), together with a government-issued
>picture identification of the individual; or
> (vi) In the case of flight training provided to a Federal employee
>(including military personnel) pursuant to a contract between a
>Federal
>agency and a flight school, the agency's written certification as to
>its employee's United States citizenship or nationality, together with
>the employee's government-issued credentials or other Federally-issued
>picture identification.
>
>
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:<416dab5f$1@darkstar>...
>> In article >,
>> Chip Fitzpatrick > wrote:
>> >Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
>> >that is required???
>>
>> * DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
>> Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,
>>
>> plus their government-issued photo ID.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
>> This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
>> my nationality.
> ... etc ...

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd

October 14th 04, 11:35 PM

In article >,
Tony Verhulst > wrote:
>
>> I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
>> This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
>> my nationality.
>
>When I became a US citizen, I sent the required letter of notification
>to Oklahoma city. Several weeks later I received my new certificate with
> "Nationality - USA" on it. At no point did I submit any documentation
>proving that I was what I said I was - they simply took my word for it.
>Hardly "written certification attesting to my nationality", IMHO.
>
>Tony V.

An excellent point. I think you are likely right, and my
assertion is incorrect. I also suspect that the procedure
for validating "nationality" will change soon.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd

October 14th 04, 11:41 PM

In article >,
Andy Durbin > wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message >
>> Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
>> any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
>> general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
>> anti-radar aircraft materials...
>
>
>Been an AOPA member since 1989 and getting an early flight review
>before Oct 20 is being seriously considered.
>
>I may be able to keep flying myself but I won't be giving any more
>instruction. No more "wings" hours for a beer, no more flight reviews
>for friends and aircraft partners, no more tail wheel instruction
>because it's fun. Why would an American citizen want me as an alien
>to have copies of all their nationality papers. Hell, I could take
>their identity, get flight training in an MD-11 (that I can already
>fly, I just don't do landings) and go hit a building somewhere.
>
>Andy

Andy,

As a US citizen I am very sorry that this will undoubtedly
negatively affect resident aliens. I and others in aviation are
sending in comments that will hopefully help.

The federal government has cut off a finger to get rid of
a blackened fingernail. Hopefully we can all contribute to
the reattachment of the digit.

Or at least we can give them
the finger...
:P
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Tom Serkowski

October 15th 04, 03:25 AM

Actually, I DID read it. Until proven otherwise YOU
are considered to be the terrorist we're all after.
YOU must now carry 'papers' with you at all time if
you'd like to take a spur of the moment training flight.
As a CFI, you must keep a record of all the papers
you've examined for 5 years. You must pay to take
security training. You can't take anyone for just
a ride lest it be construed as training without checking
their papers.-TomAt 03:36 09 October 2004, Bernie Lewis wrote:>>It appears that many of you have not read the new rules.
>As a CFI, if>the worst that I have to do is check someones birth
>certificate, I>expect I can live with that. If it keeps ONE rag head
>from trying to>blow something up with an aircraft....It will be worth
>it. I also>suspect that many of those who say it infringes on
>their civil>liberties would be the first to ask why more wasn't
>done to gaurd>against suicide pilots, should something happen in
>the future with a>light airplane.>>Bernie VR>
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

Bert Willing

October 15th 04, 08:45 AM

Where did you get that nonsense from ?!

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"

"Mark James Boyd" > a écrit dans le message de news:
416efeca$1@darkstar...
> In article >,
>
> Methinks we are heading towards a situation like Europe,
> where as a citizen I must have a passport on me at all times to
> be in my own country...it's a shame that the presumption may become
> that one does NOT belong here...

Tom Serkowski

October 16th 04, 04:50 AM

[email protected]

October 17th 04, 04:43 PM

On 16 Oct 2004 03:50:10 GMT, Tom Serkowski
> wrote:

>You can't take anyone for just
>a ride lest it be construed as training without checking
>their papers.-

Finding myself in a financial position that would allow me to at least
reach the level of having a license in my pocket, maybe not more, but
at least that much, then finding that there are more legal hoops to
jump through, I begin to wonder if it would be worth the effort.
Maybe someday our lawmakers will demonstrate that their collective IQ
is above the single digits, but I have my doubts.

Vaughn

October 17th 04, 05:26 PM

> wrote in message
...
> On 16 Oct 2004 03:50:10 GMT, Tom Serkowski
> > wrote:
>
> Maybe someday our lawmakers will demonstrate that their collective IQ
> is above the single digits, but I have my doubts.

Before that can happen, our voters will have to do the same.

Vaughn

Jack

October 17th 04, 05:51 PM

Nobody wrote:

> ...finding that there are more legal hoops to
> jump through, I begin to wonder if it would be worth the effort.

There will always be excuses not to: just do it.

Jack

[email protected]

October 18th 04, 02:38 AM

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:51:09 GMT, Jack > wrote:

>Nobody wrote:
>
> > ...finding that there are more legal hoops to
>> jump through, I begin to wonder if it would be worth the effort.
>
>There will always be excuses not to: just do it.
>
Added to all the other hoops I have to jump through just to get out of
the house for an hour, adding another may just be the one that I can't
get over. It's somewhat ironic, for at least three years, I haven't
had the money, now I have the money, but I'm tied to the house unless
my daughter is in a hospital.

Lennie

Jack

October 18th 04, 03:38 AM

Lennie wrote:

> Added to all the other hoops I have to jump through just to get out of
> the house for an hour, adding another may just be the one that I can't
> get over. It's somewhat ironic, for at least three years, I haven't
> had the money, now I have the money, but I'm tied to the house unless
> my daughter is in a hospital.

I'm sorry to hear that your daughter has such challenges Lennie, and I
applaud your dedication to her best interests.

This TSA thing will be made more rational before long, and I hope you'll
hold on to your hope of soaring. Your day will come.

Jack

[email protected]

October 18th 04, 05:58 AM

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 02:38:34 GMT, Jack > wrote:

>Lennie wrote:

>This TSA thing will be made more rational before long, and I hope you'll
>hold on to your hope of soaring. Your day will come.
>
I think my day came and went, but I napped through it.

It's been 35 years of the same thing, I can see an end to it, but that
doesn't mean I like it now, or the end. We're not supposed to bury
our children. Might be another year, might be ten, but I still don't
like looking at it.

Lennie

Roger Worden

October 18th 04, 06:15 AM

> Some instructors, some clubs, and some FBO may well cease to operate
because of this rule.

Why? How great is the burden of photocopying documents provided by students?

OscarCVox

October 18th 04, 12:22 PM

From an outsiders point of view it looks like the terrorists have won a
significant victory if the US reaction is to clamp down so hard and make life
more difficult for the everyday citizen. The difficulty is that politicians
have to be seen to be doing something. It wont affect the terrorists one iota
but it appears to be taking a tough line.

Preserve us from our lords and Masters

Bernie Lewis

October 18th 04, 05:16 PM

"Roger Worden" > wrote in message >...
> > Some instructors, some clubs, and some FBO may well cease to operate
> because of this rule.

Why? How great is the burden of photocopying documents provided by
students?

I agree Roger, how great indeed. We CFI's are currently required to
keep records of all instruction we give to each named individual.

LL

Tony Verhulst

October 18th 04, 06:00 PM

> ...We CFI's are currently required to
> keep records of all instruction we give to each named individual.

In the U.S. instructors only need to maintain a record of test
recommendations, solo endorsements, and pre-solo written tests. During
my initial instructor exam the inspector asked me "are you required to
log each lesson given in your log book"? My answer was "No, but I think
it's a pretty good idea". The inspector responded with a vigorous nod of
the head.

See FAR 61.189

Tony V.

Mark James Boyd

October 18th 04, 10:57 PM

Roger Worden > wrote:
>> Some instructors, some clubs, and some FBO may well cease to operate
>because of this rule.
>
>Why? How great is the burden of photocopying documents provided by students?

It's a bit deeper than that. About 10% of my students are (were)
resident aliens. Already one stopped training with me, decided
against buying an airplane because apparently he couldn't
be on the registration as a foriegn national, and now he has
returned to New Zealand.

Beyond that, I used to give away logbooks with a dual
entry to everyone I took on a "first ride." I had about 20-30%
success recruiting "walk-in" students this way. I don;t recall
any of these walk-ins having the ID the changes require on their
first "ride."

There's also a simple lack of confidence inspired. If I were
a resident alien, I would be very suspicious of the possibility
of future "improvements" to security, which may effectively
revoke my $5,000+ pilot's license.

Any freshman economics textbook dicusses the "velocity of money."
Essentially, it means that a 10% reduction in sales has an
amplified effect greater than 10%. This is the part about
the FBOs going out of business...

As if the proposed MOA and ATCAA near my own home gliderport weren't
enough to shut us down on it's own...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd

October 18th 04, 11:02 PM

Bernie Lewis > wrote:
>
>I agree Roger, how great indeed. We CFI's are currently required to
>keep records of all instruction we give to each named individual.

In all of these requirements, I've never before read of one
that required copying anything before this. All of my recordkeeping
requirements before this involved only a pen and paper.

And all of my students could begin flight training immediately, and
in the buff if they so desired.

Woulda been a great scene in "Team America," eh?
F**k Yeah!

Just my $1.05
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

F.L. Whiteley

October 19th 04, 01:43 AM

SSA position to date

http://www.ssa.org/society/ListGovNewsDetail.asp?Action=&id=39

Tony Burton

October 19th 04, 01:50 AM

Suppose I (A Canadian) visited a commercial operation in the USA and
required a checkflight to rent their Ventus. Could the new regs interpret
a checkflight as "training"?

--
Tony Burton

Mark James Boyd

October 19th 04, 10:34 AM

Tony Verhulst > wrote:
>
>In the U.S. instructors only need to maintain a record of test
>recommendations, solo endorsements, and pre-solo written tests. During
>my initial instructor exam the inspector asked me "are you required to
>log each lesson given in your log book"? My answer was "No, but I think
>it's a pretty good idea". The inspector responded with a vigorous nod of
>the head.
>
>See FAR 61.189

The CFI isn't required to log it in the CFI logbook,
but the CFI is required to log it in the student's logbook.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom
that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

I have a bunch of white labels (stickers) that I use, and
write out the entry with the pilot's name, and give it to them
to put in their logbook (if they didn't bring a logbook with
them). For brand new pilots, I give them a new logbook
(about $3 each as I get them in bulk).
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd

October 19th 04, 02:43 PM

Todd Pattist > wrote:
>FAR 61.189 requires a flight instructor to maintain a record
>in a logbook or a separate document that contains the
>following:
>
>"(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed
>for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall
>also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results. "
>
>How does the instructor know the "date, and the results" of
>the "knowledge test or practical test?"

I got a ground instructor license too, just so I wouldn't need
to keep a record of written tests (it isn't required under the
section for ground instructors).

As far as practical tests goes, I don't know of an
examiner who will schedule one without direct verbal request from
the CFI. And then I just call the examiner afterward, or look
at the temporary license issued to the student.

Or I suppose you could just wait 4 months
and look up the results under your student's name at
http://registry.faa.gov/amquery.asp
:]
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd