Postponed 3 students due to TSA

[Burt Compton]

Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who planned to
come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US Passport
nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because they
are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person from
the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they are US Citizens, but there's
no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to start training with me next
week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists your Nationality, it is
not a valid form of ID according to the TSA "help" desk. TSA tells me I cannot
train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent advice?

Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to solo
on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider training
except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring videos.
No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his birth
certificate from out of state. TSA "help" desk has no idea what I'm talking
about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under age 16. Looks like TSA
doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor I talked with was not
aware.

I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to fly
with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the touring
airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
Passport. The kid that learned to be your line crew last weekend will not get
their first dual glider flight as a reward for their work. I wonder how CAP is
dealing with this?

Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US Passport.
Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not trained to
detect forged Passports.

Burt
Marfa, Texas

[ADP]

No doubt you've heard of civil disobedience.
A stupid rule promulgated by stupid people
should be ignored.

If we are not willing to do what we believe
is right, perhaps the terrorists have already
won the war.

Yes I know, you fear retribution. So did
the framers of the Constitution; they did what
they believed was right in spite of that fear.

Perhaps it is time that we (all of us) stand
against rules that are illogical, stupid, self-serving
and have no impact on terrorist activities
whatsoever.

Just a thought.

Allan

"Burt Compton" > wrote in message
...
> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
> planned to
> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
> Passport
> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
> they
> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person
> from
> the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they are US Citizens, but
> there's
> no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to start training with me
> next
> week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists your Nationality, it
> is
> not a valid form of ID according to the TSA "help" desk. TSA tells me I
> cannot
> train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent advice?
>
.....Snip...

[Bill Daniels]

"Burt Compton" > wrote in message
...
> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
planned to
> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
Passport
> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
they
> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person
from
> the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they are US Citizens, but
there's
> no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to start training with me
next
> week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists your Nationality, it
is
> not a valid form of ID according to the TSA "help" desk. TSA tells me I
cannot
> train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent advice?
>
> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to
solo
> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
training
> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
videos.
> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
birth
> certificate from out of state. TSA "help" desk has no idea what I'm
talking
> about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under age 16. Looks like TSA
> doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor I talked with was not
> aware.
>

I occurs to me that while general aviation is the first target of TSA "carry
your papers" edict, it won't be the last. While this is deplorable, and
represents harsh treatment for our visiting friends from abroad, there may
be some light at the end of the tunnel. If everyone in the US must prove
their citizenship to rent a car or buy an airline ticket, the impact on
soaring will diminish as the citizenry becomes accustomed to the
inconvenience. Sad thing to have to say.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

[Vaughn Simon]

"Burt Compton" > wrote in message
...
> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
planned to
> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
Passport
> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
they
> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person
from
> the Clerk's office. ...
> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to
solo
> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
training
> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
videos.
> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
birth
> certificate from out of state.
> ...
> I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to
fly
> with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the
touring
> airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
> introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
> Passport.

You clearly have something wrong Burt. The TSA says that it is OK to
impose this rule without public input or advance notice because it will have
very little economic impact and is easily complied with.

> Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US
Passport.
> Makes life easier to carry your "papers".

I can't think of a polite way of saying this, but it looks to me like
the TSA is completing Osama's work for him. In their zeal to put us all in
a bubble of safety, they are inadvertantly destroying the very liberties
they are charged to protect.

My wife and I saw this coming two years ago and applied for our
passports.

> But then again, I'm not trained to detect forged Passports.

Exactly! ...or forged birth certificates. As happens so often with
government regulation, this rule is a problem to everyone except for those
who don't care about doing things legally.

Vaughn

[Shawn]

ADP wrote:
> No doubt you've heard of civil disobedience.
> A stupid rule promulgated by stupid people
> should be ignored.
>
> If we are not willing to do what we believe
> is right, perhaps the terrorists have already
> won the war.
>
> Yes I know, you fear retribution. So did
> the framers of the Constitution; they did what
> they believed was right in spite of that fear.
>
> Perhaps it is time that we (all of us) stand
> against rules that are illogical, stupid, self-serving
> and have no impact on terrorist activities
> whatsoever.
>
> Just a thought.


Hey buddy. Americur is no place for this kind of seditious talk.

[Roy Garden]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Burt Compton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
> planned to
>> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
> Passport
>> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
> they
>> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in
>> person
> from
>> the Clerk's office. ...
>> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to
> solo
>> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
> training
>> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
> videos.
>> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
> birth
>> certificate from out of state.
>> ...
>> I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to
> fly
>> with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the
> touring
>> airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
>> introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
>> Passport.
>
> You clearly have something wrong Burt. The TSA says that it is OK to
> impose this rule without public input or advance notice because it will
> have
> very little economic impact and is easily complied with.
>
>> Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US
> Passport.
>> Makes life easier to carry your "papers".
>
> I can't think of a polite way of saying this, but it looks to me like
> the TSA is completing Osama's work for him. In their zeal to put us all
> in
> a bubble of safety, they are inadvertantly destroying the very liberties
> they are charged to protect.
>
> My wife and I saw this coming two years ago and applied for our
> passports.

Sorry to say this guys, but.
If more than 20% of Americans carried passports there would be less of a
problem.
Why do you need a passport, surely drivers i.d. is sufficient?

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Roy Garden" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vaughn Simon" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Burt Compton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
> > planned to
> >> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
> > Passport
> >> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
> > they
> >> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in
> >> person
> > from
> >> the Clerk's office. ...
> >> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes
to
> > solo
> >> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
> > training
> >> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
> > videos.
> >> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
> > birth
> >> certificate from out of state.
> >> ...
> >> I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming
to
> > fly
> >> with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the
> > touring
> >> airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
> >> introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
> >> Passport.
> >
> > You clearly have something wrong Burt. The TSA says that it is OK
to
> > impose this rule without public input or advance notice because it will
> > have
> > very little economic impact and is easily complied with.
> >
> >> Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US
> > Passport.
> >> Makes life easier to carry your "papers".
> >
> > I can't think of a polite way of saying this, but it looks to me
like
> > the TSA is completing Osama's work for him. In their zeal to put us all

> > in
> > a bubble of safety, they are inadvertantly destroying the very liberties
> > they are charged to protect.
> >
> > My wife and I saw this coming two years ago and applied for our
> > passports.
>
> Sorry to say this guys, but.
> If more than 20% of Americans carried passports there would be less of a
> problem.
> Why do you need a passport, surely drivers i.d. is sufficient?
>
drivers ID? surely you jest, some states have tried giving them to illegals

in many places you can't use a military photo ID to cash a check as they are
lost and stolen so frequently, drivers licenses are several orders of
magnitude worse

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

[Steve Hill]

I have a curious question...If this whole "carry your papers" mess is based
on flight instructors verifying a "students" papers...and a "student" is
anyone a flight instructor takes for an instructional flight...wouldn't it
be a simple solution to just have rated pilots who are not instructors take
"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a friend
how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
where an infraction comes into play...I don't think there's any rules about
showing friends how we as rated pilots do things...If that "ride with a
friend" entices a person to choose to pursue an instructional flight, with a
certified instructor, that of course becomes a much more intentional act,
and a little planning and paperwork won't bog things down much at that
point, as they are merely compliance issues...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but methinks there is always more than one way to skin a
cat...



Steve
DG-400

[Stewart Kissel]

http://travel.state.gov/passport/

Not saying I support this idea...I think I'll just
add it to my other ramp-check stuff.

[Stewart Kissel]

http://www.usbirthcertificate.com/google/

Or plan B

[Jim Vincent]

>rated pilots who are not instructors take
>"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a friend
>how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
>where an infraction comes into play...I don't think there's any rules about

It seems to me that if I am just taking someone for a ride, I am not exercising
the priveleges of my CFI, it is either my private or commercial that I am using
at that point.

However, if I happen to use a syllabus, give ground instruction, fly with the
person, and then log the flight as instruction received in their log book, then
I am doing the CFI bit. Of course, I've seen many CFI skip the syllabus and
ground instruction bit too, so maybe it just boils down to how the flight is
logged, if logged at all.

Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Mark James Boyd]

Burt Compton > wrote:
>
> Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US Passport.
>Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not trained to
>detect forged Passports.

Burt, then how do you know they don't have a passport.
Ask them if they have anything they THINK might be a passport.
Then, if you can't tell it isn't one, take a photo and keep it
for five years.

Fight fire with fire, ignorance with ignorance, and
stupidity with stupidity. I'm just waiting for my daughter to
grow up enough so I can give her dual (without a passport).
I'm looking forward to meeting the TSA employee who
prosecutes that case...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Jim Britton]

Burt,

As I understand it, 'rides' are excluded under the
'demo flights' exclusion.
If not then we are in a bigger mess.
To give a ride you need only a commercial license (ie
not a CFIG). Therefore if *they* consider rides to
be insructional then by inference - they must be done
by an instructor.
Lets hope it doesnt go that way.
So, keep some non-instructor ride pilots available.....

Jim


At 16:55 20 October 2004, Burt Compton wrote:
<Snip>
>The spontaneous days of the touring
>airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-momen
>>t
>introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they
>are carrying a US
>Passport.
<snip>
>Burt
>Marfa, Texas

[ChuckPilot]

In article <4176dc34$1@darkstar>, (Mark James Boyd)
writes:

>I'm just waiting for my daughter to
>grow up enough so I can give her dual (without a passport).
>I'm looking forward to meeting the TSA employee who
>prosecutes that case...

Remember that old saying............"Be careful what you ask for".
CP

[Andreas Maurer]

On 20 Oct 2004 19:55:32 GMT, Steve Hill
> wrote:

>I have a curious question...If this whole "carry your papers" mess is based
>on flight instructors verifying a "students" papers...and a "student" is
>anyone a flight instructor takes for an instructional flight...wouldn't it
>be a simple solution to just have rated pilots who are not instructors take
>"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a friend
>how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
>where an infraction comes into play...

You raise an interesting question.
What are you going to do with your passenger if he's sitting in the
same cockpit as you and asks to touch the controls?

What's the difference between a pilot-to-be and a
pilot-to-be-for-this-flight-but-only-for-this-flight, seen from the
point of view of homeland security?


Have you heard about the Frankfurt case of the hijacked Dimona (in the
US called Katana Extreme) motorglider?

An insane passenger hijacked the motorglider by forcing the pilot to
leave the aircraft once they had taxied to the runway. Then he took
off (I think he had some motorglider lessons, but he definitely didn't
have a license) and flew over the city of Frankfurt, right through the
approach sector of Frankfurt Rhein Main airport. This took over two
hours and Rhein Main airport, one of the busiest in the world, was
shut down completely during this time. They got him on the radio, and
he mentioned that he was thinking about crashing the Dimona into the
city of Frankfurt (they are pretty proud of their few tiny sky
crapers). As a result, the city was partially evacuated (!). In the
end they could persuade him to land on Rhein Main.

This happened in Germany - here people usually don't panic as easily
as in other parts of the world (well... at least until 9-11).


Somehow I see it coming that the same security checks for passengers
of a 4-seat Cessna as for commercial flights are going to become
mandatatory, including a closed cockpit for only the pilot. or simply
forbid any passenger flights with people that have not been briefed by
the FBI.





Bye
Andreas

[BTIZ]

I've been able to get birth certificate records by phone contact to the
county the are filed in, or in the case of some.. by web request. Granted
each time took a week or two to complete the mailing to my residence. I did
not have to fly 3000 miles to retrieve such records in person.

As for Scenario #2... I agree.. the help desk person has not a clue... but
it's not a matter of "solo" it's a matter of receiving training...

We are already directing all recent contacts that have inquired about
training to bring notarized copy for us to see, and a copy (of any type) to
keep, or just give us the notarized copy.

BT

"Burt Compton" > wrote in message
...
> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
> planned to
> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
> Passport
> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
> they
> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person
> from
> the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they are US Citizens, but
> there's
> no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to start training with me
> next
> week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists your Nationality, it
> is
> not a valid form of ID according to the TSA "help" desk. TSA tells me I
> cannot
> train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent advice?
>
> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to
> solo
> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
> training
> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
> videos.
> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
> birth
> certificate from out of state. TSA "help" desk has no idea what I'm
> talking
> about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under age 16. Looks like TSA
> doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor I talked with was not
> aware.
>
> I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to
> fly
> with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the
> touring
> airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
> introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
> Passport. The kid that learned to be your line crew last weekend will
> not get
> their first dual glider flight as a reward for their work. I wonder how
> CAP is
> dealing with this?
>
> Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US
> Passport.
> Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not
> trained to
> detect forged Passports.
>
> Burt
> Marfa, Texas
>
>
>
>

[BTIZ]

Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria..
however.. if a log book is produced for a CFI endorsement to meet the
requirements of an additional rating.. then TSA rules are in effect.

BT

"Steve Hill" > wrote in message
...
>I have a curious question...If this whole "carry your papers" mess is based
> on flight instructors verifying a "students" papers...and a "student" is
> anyone a flight instructor takes for an instructional flight...wouldn't it
> be a simple solution to just have rated pilots who are not instructors
> take
> "friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a
> friend
> how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
> where an infraction comes into play...I don't think there's any rules
> about
> showing friends how we as rated pilots do things...If that "ride with a
> friend" entices a person to choose to pursue an instructional flight, with
> a
> certified instructor, that of course becomes a much more intentional act,
> and a little planning and paperwork won't bog things down much at that
> point, as they are merely compliance issues...
>
> Perhaps I'm wrong, but methinks there is always more than one way to skin
> a
> cat...
>
>
>
> Steve
> DG-400
>
>
>
>

[BGMIFF]

I thought this was the US.....not the USSR.....oh that is
right.....communism is dead.........maybe!!!!


"Burt Compton" > wrote in message
...
> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who
planned to
> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US
Passport
> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because
they
> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person
from
> the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they are US Citizens, but
there's
> no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to start training with me
next
> week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists your Nationality, it
is
> not a valid form of ID according to the TSA "help" desk. TSA tells me I
cannot
> train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent advice?
>
> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to
solo
> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider
training
> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring
videos.
> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his
birth
> certificate from out of state. TSA "help" desk has no idea what I'm
talking
> about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under age 16. Looks like TSA
> doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor I talked with was not
> aware.
>
> I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to
fly
> with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous days of the
touring
> airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-moment
> introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they are carrying a US
> Passport. The kid that learned to be your line crew last weekend will
not get
> their first dual glider flight as a reward for their work. I wonder how
CAP is
> dealing with this?
>
> Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US
Passport.
> Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not
trained to
> detect forged Passports.
>
> Burt
> Marfa, Texas
>
>
>
>

[Vaughn]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:0ACdd.34287$bk1.21274@fed1read05...
> Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria

Be careful here. They mean for "marketing" an aircraft, not "marketing"
flight training.

"Demonstration flight for marketing purposes means a flight for the purpose of
demonstrating an aircraft’s or aircraft

simulator’s capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser, or to an
agent of a potential purchaser,

of the aircraft or simulator, including an acceptance flight after an aircraft
manufacturer delivers an aircraft to a

purchaser."



Vaughn

[Nyal Williams]

This isn't Communism; it's Fascism. Communism is about
economic organization; Fascism is about behavioral
control. I despise both.


At 01:06 21 October 2004, Bgmiff wrote:
>I thought this was the US.....not the USSR.....oh that
>is
>right.....communism is dead.........maybe!!!!
>
>
>'Burt Compton' wrote in message
...
>> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot
>>Certificates) who
>planned to
>> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week.
>> Neither has a US
>Passport
>> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth
>>Certificate because
>they
>> are told you need to go to your home town or county
>>to obtain it in person
>from
>> the Clerk's office. Both of the guys tell me they
>>are US Citizens, but
>there's
>> no time to obtain TSA required documents in time to
>>start training with me
>next
>> week. Even though your FAA Pilot Certificate lists
>>your Nationality, it
>is
>> not a valid form of ID according to the TSA 'help'
>>desk. TSA tells me I
>cannot
>> train them. I wonder if they are giving out consistent
>>advice?
>>
>> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old
>>youngster. Hopes to
>solo
>> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has
>>no previous glider
>training
>> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and
>>watching soaring
>videos.
>> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified
>>copy of his
>birth
>> certificate from out of state. TSA 'help' desk has
>>no idea what I'm
>talking
>> about. Advised me that no one can fly solo under
>>age 16. Looks like TSA
>> doesn't understand gliders - or at least the advisor
>>I talked with was not
>> aware.
>>
>> I guess we will have to advise our students well in
>>advance of coming to
>fly
>> with us to get their documents in order. The spontaneous
>>days of the
>touring
>> airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-mome
>>>nt
>> introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they
>>are carrying a US
>> Passport. The kid that learned to be your line crew
>>last weekend will
>not get
>> their first dual glider flight as a reward for their
>>work. I wonder how
>CAP is
>> dealing with this?
>>
>> Looks like every American at every age should obtain
>>and carry a US
>Passport.
>> Makes life easier to carry your 'papers'. But then
>>again, I'm not
>trained to
>> detect forged Passports.
>>
>> Burt
>> Marfa, Texas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Leon McAtee]

"ADP" > wrote in message >...
> No doubt you've heard of civil disobedience.
> A stupid rule promulgated by stupid people
> should be ignored.
>
> If we are not willing to do what we believe
> is right, perhaps the terrorists have already
> won the war.
>
> Yes I know, you fear retribution. So did
> the framers of the Constitution; they did what
> they believed was right in spite of that fear.
>
> Perhaps it is time that we (all of us) stand
> against rules that are illogical, stupid, self-serving
> and have no impact on terrorist activities
> whatsoever.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Allan

And a VERY good one! I had planed to follow this course of
action....or is it inaction?

"Papers? No I don't need to see them, let's just go fly" 40 years
ago they called it a "sit in". Same idea.

Some will cry that we are anarchist, but even if that's true anarchy
has got to be more rational than the what lies at the end of the road
down which we seem to be traveling.

====================
Leon McAtee
Looks like I just messed up a possible career with TSA :-)

[Roger Worden]

The alien training rule was amended today. See the AOPA web site.

The rule no longer applies to BFRs, just new certificates and ratings.
CFI's no longer have to keep copies of the ID, just log it in the student's
logbook.

[CV]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> This isn't Communism; it's Fascism. Communism is about
> economic organization; Fascism is about behavioral
> control. I despise both.

Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless
you have fascism as well. Communism also means the
stranglehold of pointless bureaucratic hell in all
areas of life. The comparison to communist systems
is perfectly valid.
CV

[CV]

CV wrote:
> Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless
> you have fascism as well. Communism also means the
> stranglehold of pointless bureaucratic hell in all
> areas of life. The comparison to communist systems
> is perfectly valid.

Just remembered a good example of this. During the
communist times, in Roumania you needed a licence
to own a typewriter !

.... and that's the kind of system you're all headed for ...

Cheers CV

[Iwo Mergler]

CV wrote:
>
> CV wrote:
>
>> Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless
>> you have fascism as well. Communism also means the
>> stranglehold of pointless bureaucratic hell in all
>> areas of life. The comparison to communist systems
>> is perfectly valid.
>
>
> Just remembered a good example of this. During the
> communist times, in Roumania you needed a licence
> to own a typewriter !
>

Yes, and you had to deposit a sample page of said
typewriter with the secret police, so you can be
identified, in case you write anything the government
doesn't approve of. Good old times... ;^)

Regards,

Iwo

[Nyal Williams]

Hair splitting is entirely in order. You are right
that fascism is a necessary part of communism, but
you can certainly have fascism without communism.
You are getting it right now out of TSA.


At 09:48 21 October 2004, Iwo Mergler wrote:
>CV wrote:
>>
>> CV wrote:
>>
>>> Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless
>>> you have fascism as well. Communism also means the
>>> stranglehold of pointless bureaucratic hell in all
>>> areas of life. The comparison to communist systems
>>> is perfectly valid.
>>
>>
>> Just remembered a good example of this. During the
>> communist times, in Roumania you needed a licence
>> to own a typewriter !
>>
>
>Yes, and you had to deposit a sample page of said
>typewriter with the secret police, so you can be
>identified, in case you write anything the government
>doesn't approve of. Good old times... ;^)
>
>Regards,
>
>Iwo
>

[Robert Ehrlich]

CV wrote:
>
> Nyal Williams wrote:
> > This isn't Communism; it's Fascism. Communism is about
> > economic organization; Fascism is about behavioral
> > control. I despise both.
>
> Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless
> you have fascism as well.
> ...


Depends what is the definition of Communism. I heard
some avocates of the kibbutz system in Israel saying that
this was the true communism. It may disputed if this true
as well as if it is a successful economic organization,
but as an economic organization it is a kind of communism.
However, as far as I know, it doesn't imply fascism.

[CV]

Robert Ehrlich wrote:
> CV wrote:
>>Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless
>>you have fascism as well.
>
> Depends what is the definition of Communism. I heard
> some avocates of the kibbutz system in Israel saying that
> this was the true communism. It may disputed if this true
> as well as if it is a successful economic organization,
> but as an economic organization it is a kind of communism.
> However, as far as I know, it doesn't imply fascism.

Could be so. I know nothing about the kibbutzes.
I was talking about whole countries.
CV

[Jim Vincent]

>Depends what is the definition of Communism. I heard
>some avocates of the kibbutz system in Israel saying that
>this was the true communism.

I don't think true communism is heavily subsidized by the USA.

Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Mark James Boyd]

If you aren't a member of AOPA, you should QUICKLY look into it.

In article >,
Roger Worden > wrote:
>The alien training rule was amended today. See the AOPA web site.
>
>The rule no longer applies to BFRs, just new certificates and ratings.
>CFI's no longer have to keep copies of the ID, just log it in the student's
>logbook.
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[CV]

Nyal Williams wrote:

> Hair splitting is entirely in order. You are right
> that fascism is a necessary part of communism, but
> you can certainly have fascism without communism.

Certainly, and I never claimed otherwise.

> You are getting it right now out of TSA.

The bureaucratic aspects of this TSA lark strike me as
a common trait with some of the former (fortunately)
communist systems, hence that comparison is valid
too, as well as the fascist one.
CV

[BTIZ]

is that buried in the TSA definitin somewhere?
I saw definitions for "flight school". "recurrency training".. etc.. but not
"marketing"

I can't market the flight school? or flying in general?

BT

"Vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:0ACdd.34287$bk1.21274@fed1read05...
>> Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria
>
> Be careful here. They mean for "marketing" an aircraft, not
> "marketing"
> flight training.
>
> "Demonstration flight for marketing purposes means a flight for the
> purpose of
> demonstrating an aircraft's or aircraft
>
> simulator's capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser, or
> to an
> agent of a potential purchaser,
>
> of the aircraft or simulator, including an acceptance flight after an
> aircraft
> manufacturer delivers an aircraft to a
>
> purchaser."
>
>
>
> Vaughn
>
>
>

[BTIZ]

unless it's published in the Federal Register.. AOPA (yes I'm a long
standing member) can tell me all they want... but it is not so until
published..

BT

"Roger Worden" > wrote in message
om...
> The alien training rule was amended today. See the AOPA web site.
>
> The rule no longer applies to BFRs, just new certificates and ratings.
> CFI's no longer have to keep copies of the ID, just log it in the
> student's
> logbook.
>
>

[Jim Vincent]

>ut it is not so until
>published..
>
>BT

C'mon BT, what are you scared off. Defy the *******s just like the rest of us.

It occurs to me, can I get Soaring forwarded to Gitmo when they come knocked at
the door?

One of the priveleges of the Patriot Act that they can come and arrest anyone
they want without due process. Then again, they may reverse the ruling by
Spring time when it would be warm here in the northeast US again.

Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Clint]

CV > wrote in message >...
> Nyal Williams wrote:
>
> > Hair splitting is entirely in order. You are right
> > that fascism is a necessary part of communism, but
> > you can certainly have fascism without communism.
>
> Certainly, and I never claimed otherwise.
>
> > You are getting it right now out of TSA.
>
> The bureaucratic aspects of this TSA lark strike me as
> a common trait with some of the former (fortunately)
> communist systems, hence that comparison is valid
> too, as well as the fascist one.
> CV

The communism as practiced by Russia until ~1990 and China is very
different from the theoretical concepts originally proposed by Lenin
etc. Kibbutzez in Israel are far closer to the original communist
proposal, yet have no fascist overtones. Ideal communism is everybody
working together for the good of the community. I think that the Amish
practice a form of communism in the way that they work together. I
don't think that the Amish can be called fascists :)

It is very funny that the Germans of the 1920's and 30's so feared
communism that they went with the fascism of the Nazis - and how that
changed world history.

Apartheid South Africa had many of the trappings of fascism
(especially if you happened to be non-white) but was totally opposed
to communism. The current government is far more lenient towards
communism - the South African Communist Party is an active part of the
government - yet is not fascist at all. There is no merit in saying
that fascism is a necessary part of communism and vice-versa - they
are very different models.

I fear that if the current fears of terrorism in America are allowed
to escalate - a repeat of Apartheid South Africa is a final
possibility, with all its restrictions and removals of personal
freedom for certain classes of people - e.g. Muslims and foreigners.
White South Africans were convinced to allow apartheid based on the
government convincing the people of the dangers of communism. (Die
Rooi Gevaar - the Red Danger).

How does all this affect Soaring? Visit South Africa where the skies
are open, the people friendly, the beer cheap and the soaring
fantastic.

Clinton Birch
LAK 12

[Vaughn]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:im_dd.36191$bk1.5328@fed1read05...
> is that buried in the TSA definitin somewhere?
> I saw definitions for "flight school". "recurrency training".. etc.. but not
> "marketing"

The formatting was screwed up, but that was a quote straight from the rule.
Not a definition of "marketing" but rather of 'demonstration flight".

>
> I can't market the flight school? or flying in general?

Sure you can. But you can't give a flight lesson and call it a
"demonstration flight" unless (perhaps) the purpose of the flight is to sell the
airplane.

Vaughn



>
> BT
>
> "Vaughn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> > news:0ACdd.34287$bk1.21274@fed1read05...
> >> Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria
> >
> > Be careful here. They mean for "marketing" an aircraft, not
> > "marketing"
> > flight training.
> >
> > "Demonstration flight for marketing purposes means a flight for the
> > purpose of
> > demonstrating an aircraft's or aircraft
> >
> > simulator's capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser, or
> > to an
> > agent of a potential purchaser,
> >
> > of the aircraft or simulator, including an acceptance flight after an
> > aircraft
> > manufacturer delivers an aircraft to a
> >
> > purchaser."
> >
> >
> >
> > Vaughn
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[CV]

Clint wrote:
> The communism as practiced by Russia until ~1990 and China is very
> different from the theoretical concepts originally proposed by Lenin

Actual practice often turns out very different from theoretical
concepts.

> etc. Kibbutzez in Israel are far closer to the original communist
> proposal, yet have no fascist overtones. Ideal communism is everybody
> working together for the good of the community. I think that the Amish
> practice a form of communism in the way that they work together. I
> don't think that the Amish can be called fascists :)
>
> It is very funny that the Germans of the 1920's and 30's so feared
> communism that they went with the fascism of the Nazis - and how that
> changed world history.

> Apartheid South Africa had many of the trappings of fascism
> (especially if you happened to be non-white) but was totally opposed
> to communism. The current government is far more lenient towards
> communism - the South African Communist Party is an active part of the
> government - yet is not fascist at all. There is no merit in saying
> that fascism is a necessary part of communism and vice-versa - they
> are very different models.

Noone has claimed the vice-versa afaik.

But OK then, besides smaller groups like kibbutzes or the Amish you
mention (must confess I have no idea what they are), ant colonies
and the like :0), name a country that has had a communist system
for any amount of time without fascist-style repression and
persecution to keep their citizenry in line.

CV

[Vaughn Simon]

Update! From Judy R's post earlier today. It seems that this rule is
changing faster than we can talk about it.

"-- Introductory flights, field checks, aircraft checkouts
and other proficiency flights are NOT considered flight
training."

This seems to say that it is OK for a CFIG to turn a glider ride into
an introductory lesson without dealing with the citizenship issue. A good
thing, because we pick up lots of new students that way.

Vaughn

[Michael]

(Burt Compton) wrote
> Scenario # 1: I've got 2 guys (with FAA SEL Pilot Certificates) who planned to
> come to Marfa, Texas for glider training next week. Neither has a US Passport
> nor can they obtain a Certified Copy of their Birth Certificate because they
> are told you need to go to your home town or county to obtain it in person from
> the Clerk's office.

Who said anything about a certified copy? They have the original,
don't they? You saw it, right? Just nod your head yes, and enter the
endorsement in the instructor's logbook and the student's. Now go
fly.

No, there is no longer a requirement to keep a copy. An exemption has
been issued.

> Scenario # 2: Third student is a local 13 year old youngster. Hopes to solo
> on 14th birthday over the Christmas Holidays. Has no previous glider training
> except great RC model flyer. Been reading books and watching soaring videos.
> No Passport. Mom working on getting an original certified copy of his birth
> certificate from out of state.

Again - he or his parents have the original, right? Same process.

> I guess we will have to advise our students well in advance of coming to fly
> with us to get their documents in order.

That depends - do you trust them or don't you?

Michael

[BTIZ]

>> I can't market the flight school? or flying in general?
>
> Sure you can. But you can't give a flight lesson and call it a
> "demonstration flight" unless (perhaps) the purpose of the flight is to
> sell the
> airplane.
>
> Vaughn
>

I did not say I was giving a lesson... I said I was marketing Aviation...

BT

[BTIZ]

Jim... they published it.. I have a pdf file of the TSA letter.. would you
like a copy?
It can be retrieved from the AOPA web page, on TSA letterhead

BT

"Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> >ut it is not so until
>>published..
>>
>>BT
>
> C'mon BT, what are you scared off. Defy the *******s just like the rest
> of us.
>
> It occurs to me, can I get Soaring forwarded to Gitmo when they come
> knocked at
> the door?
>
> One of the priveleges of the Patriot Act that they can come and arrest
> anyone
> they want without due process. Then again, they may reverse the ruling by
> Spring time when it would be warm here in the northeast US again.
>
> Jim Vincent
> N483SZ
>

[BTIZ]

> they want without due process. Then again, they may reverse the ruling by
> Spring time when it would be warm here in the northeast US again.
>
> Jim Vincent
> N483SZ
>

Jim... you may be able to wait it out until spring...
We fly all winter.. and would hate to be "ramp checked" by a TSA rep..

granted.. they should have more important things to do.

BT

[Lennie the Lurker]

CV > wrote in message >...
>
> But OK then, besides smaller groups like kibbutzes or the Amish you
> mention (must confess I have no idea what they are), ant colonies
> and the like :0),

The Amish are a religious group, pretty much rejecting modern
conveniences, and more or less being what most people would like to
say they are, a community. They are also one of the last places on
earth where you can go and buy furniture that is made tastefully, and
with quality materials, knowing that the hand fit joints aren't going
to loosen up in a year. (And contrary to Tadysch adds, if you want
the good stuff, you'll go to the craftsman himself, not an outlet that
sells mass produced "almost good" furniture.) At the first glance,
they appear to be a gentle people, but many of their ways are hard and
cold, and you won't ever come out on top dealing with them, even
maybe, but they're not fools in their business affairs. What stands
them apart from most places, they really do care about their
communities and their people. Not just lip service like every other
"community."

[Clint]

CV > wrote in message >...
> Clint wrote:
> > The communism as practiced by Russia until ~1990 and China is very
> > different from the theoretical concepts originally proposed by Lenin
>
> Actual practice often turns out very different from theoretical
> concepts.
>
> > etc. Kibbutzez in Israel are far closer to the original communist
> > proposal, yet have no fascist overtones. Ideal communism is everybody
> > working together for the good of the community. I think that the Amish
> > practice a form of communism in the way that they work together. I
> > don't think that the Amish can be called fascists :)
> >
> > It is very funny that the Germans of the 1920's and 30's so feared
> > communism that they went with the fascism of the Nazis - and how that
> > changed world history.
>
> > Apartheid South Africa had many of the trappings of fascism
> > (especially if you happened to be non-white) but was totally opposed
> > to communism. The current government is far more lenient towards
> > communism - the South African Communist Party is an active part of the
> > government - yet is not fascist at all. There is no merit in saying
> > that fascism is a necessary part of communism and vice-versa - they
> > are very different models.
>
> Noone has claimed the vice-versa afaik.
>
> But OK then, besides smaller groups like kibbutzes or the Amish you
> mention (must confess I have no idea what they are), ant colonies
> and the like :0), name a country that has had a communist system
> for any amount of time without fascist-style repression and
> persecution to keep their citizenry in line.
>
> CV


The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states
and Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about
16-18,000 people live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish
stress humility, family and community, and separation from the world.

A communist system based on the fear of God - rather than the fear of
military rule :-)

15000 ft cloudbase - 4m/s thermals. Got to love Africa.

Clinton Birch
Lak 12

[Jeff Melin]

Two thoughts about all of this:

Support AOPA, EAA, and SSA as they do their best to jointly guide TSA =
back to sanity. They may need your help at some point, $ and Letter =
writing to appointed and elected officials.

Burt's operation is in a hotbed of Border Patrol activity, a large =
headquarters, a training facility on the airport he operates from, =
nearby checkpoints, and heavy patrolling. While visiting last year, I =
left my car parked and running, the drivers door open, and parked right =
at the door to my room while carrying items in. In the time it took me =
to make one trip, I returned to find a friendly Border Patrol officer, =
with hand on 9mm Glock waiting to find out who I was and to inform me =
that there was no shortage of pedestrians in the area, more than willing =
to borrow my SUV. If these folks were to stumble into an aircraft =
related incident, it would not be long until TSA and the FAA were =
involved. Attention Burt really does not need.

Secondly, on November 2nd, US voters need to keep in mind which =
candidate they may vote for that could deliver more TSAs to delve into =
our lives at our expense - AND PULL THE OTHER LEVER! You know who I am =
referring to!

[Olfert Cleveringa]

Thanks all for the replies.

The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is
much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and
illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads.
Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax
advantages, at least at the time.

Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we cannot
use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a
busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is
getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual
Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now use
a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from
the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars
too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way to
keep our tow costs reasonably down.

At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like
airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near
future brings.

Olfert
Hornet A7

[Bill Daniels]

"Olfert Cleveringa" > wrote in message
.com...
> Thanks all for the replies.
>
> The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is
> much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and
> illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads.
> Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax
> advantages, at least at the time.
>
> Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we cannot
> use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a
> busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is
> getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual
> Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now use
> a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from
> the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars
> too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way to
> keep our tow costs reasonably down.
>
> At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like
> airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near
> future brings.
>
> Olfert
> Hornet A7

I agree with Olfert.

The world needs a purpose-designed towplane and, if the designer choose one
of the new diesels, that would be a very good thing. It would probably look
something like a Super Dimona but with taller landing gear and bigger prop.
With good aerodynamics, 135 HP would handle the heaviest gliders.

Bill Daniels

[Tim Ward]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
news:kaVgd.278275$wV.24225@attbi_s54...
>
> "Olfert Cleveringa" > wrote in message
> .com...
> > Thanks all for the replies.
> >
> > The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is
> > much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and
> > illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads.
> > Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax
> > advantages, at least at the time.
> >
> > Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we cannot
> > use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a
> > busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is
> > getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual
> > Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now use
> > a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from
> > the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars
> > too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way to
> > keep our tow costs reasonably down.
> >
> > At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like
> > airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near
> > future brings.
> >
> > Olfert
> > Hornet A7
>
> I agree with Olfert.
>
> The world needs a purpose-designed towplane and, if the designer choose
one
> of the new diesels, that would be a very good thing. It would probably
look
> something like a Super Dimona but with taller landing gear and bigger
prop.
> With good aerodynamics, 135 HP would handle the heaviest gliders.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

Yep, and it should have "ferry tips" that shorten the span, to make it a
little faster to move from place to place. They should fit inside the
airplane. Then when you get there, swap tips back for the higher AR climb
configuration.

Tim Ward

[Bill Daniels]

"Tim Ward" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> news:kaVgd.278275$wV.24225@attbi_s54...
> >
> > "Olfert Cleveringa" > wrote in message
> > .com...
> > > Thanks all for the replies.
> > >
> > > The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is
> > > much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and
> > > illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads.
> > > Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax
> > > advantages, at least at the time.
> > >
> > > Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we
cannot
> > > use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a
> > > busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is
> > > getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual
> > > Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now
use
> > > a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from
> > > the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars
> > > too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way
to
> > > keep our tow costs reasonably down.
> > >
> > > At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like
> > > airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near
> > > future brings.
> > >
> > > Olfert
> > > Hornet A7
> >
> > I agree with Olfert.
> >
> > The world needs a purpose-designed towplane and, if the designer choose
> one
> > of the new diesels, that would be a very good thing. It would probably
> look
> > something like a Super Dimona but with taller landing gear and bigger
> prop.
> > With good aerodynamics, 135 HP would handle the heaviest gliders.
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
>
> Yep, and it should have "ferry tips" that shorten the span, to make it a
> little faster to move from place to place. They should fit inside the
> airplane. Then when you get there, swap tips back for the higher AR climb
> configuration.
>
> Tim Ward
>
Removable tips would let it reside in a standard T-hangar.

Bill Daniels

[Stefan]

Olfert Cleveringa wrote:

> At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like
> airframe would be a very nice replacement.

I don't think so, there are better solutions.

This year, in Switzerland, we've carried out serious experiments with
those new ultra lights as tow planes, with the allowance and under the
supervision of the FOCA. The results were unexpected and spectacular.
(For our American friends: I'm not speaking of those flying lawn-movers,
but of the new high tech airplanes rated as Ultra Lights in Europe. Look
at http://www.remos.com/ and http://www.lightwing.ch/ for two examples.)

As I said, the results were astonishing. Powered with a 100 hp Rotax
engine, they performed as well if not better than a typical "classic"
180 hp towplane! Even a heavy two seater on wet grass wasn't a problem!
Start roll was even shorter, the noise level was much lower (important
in Europe), and all with a gas burn of 12l/h instead of 40l/h. (Or
similiar, I don't have the exact numbers handy.) Even when high tows
lasted a little longer (i.e. 15 instead of 12 minutes), they were much
cheaper.

We discussed why those planes would perform so well with only 100 hp. We
think, there are mainly two reasons. First, as the name says, they are
very light. It makes a difference whether the plane weights 1000 kg or
400. Then, "traditional" airplanes fly way too slowly on tow. They are
operated far away from their best climb speed, while those ultralights
are operated very near best climb speed. But for whatever reason, in
Switzerland it is common belief now that those ultra lights are the
future of towing.

Stefan

[John Giddy]

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:51:07 +0100, Stefan wrote:

> Olfert Cleveringa wrote:
>
>> At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like
>> airframe would be a very nice replacement.
>
> I don't think so, there are better solutions.
>
> This year, in Switzerland, we've carried out serious experiments with
> those new ultra lights as tow planes, with the allowance and under the
> supervision of the FOCA. The results were unexpected and spectacular.
> (For our American friends: I'm not speaking of those flying lawn-movers,
> but of the new high tech airplanes rated as Ultra Lights in Europe. Look
> at http://www.remos.com/ and http://www.lightwing.ch/ for two examples.)
>
> As I said, the results were astonishing. Powered with a 100 hp Rotax
> engine, they performed as well if not better than a typical "classic"
> 180 hp towplane! Even a heavy two seater on wet grass wasn't a problem!
> Start roll was even shorter, the noise level was much lower (important
> in Europe), and all with a gas burn of 12l/h instead of 40l/h. (Or
> similiar, I don't have the exact numbers handy.) Even when high tows
> lasted a little longer (i.e. 15 instead of 12 minutes), they were much
> cheaper.
>
> We discussed why those planes would perform so well with only 100 hp. We
> think, there are mainly two reasons. First, as the name says, they are
> very light. It makes a difference whether the plane weights 1000 kg or
> 400. Then, "traditional" airplanes fly way too slowly on tow. They are
> operated far away from their best climb speed, while those ultralights
> are operated very near best climb speed. But for whatever reason, in
> Switzerland it is common belief now that those ultra lights are the
> future of towing.
>
> Stefan

Stefan,
Have they done any tests at high altitude airfields ? My memory of
Swiss gliding fields is that they are in valleys, with reasonably low
altitude. If I am wrong, please correct me, as my knowledge is
fragmentary regarding your lovely country.
We have discussed ultralight tow planes, but the consesus seems to be
that with high temperatures (40 C is not at all uncommon) the high
density altitude will reduce the performance to an unacceptable level.
I have also heard some rumours that the high speed Rotax engines don't
take kindly to the extended full power operation necessary when
towing, and the lifetime is shortened. Can you comment on this please
?
Cheers, John G. (Victoria, Australia)

[Stefan]

John Giddy wrote:

> Have they done any tests at high altitude airfields ?

How high is high enough? Is a 800 meter paved runway at 1328 m (4354 ft)
altitude high enough? I took off in a Janus last summer there behind an
ultralight. It wasn't 40°C, though.

> ... regarding your lovely country.

You may spare the flattery, I'm not American. ;-)

> We have discussed ultralight tow planes, but the consesus seems to be
> that with high temperatures (40 C is not at all uncommon) the high
> density altitude will reduce the performance to an unacceptable level.

We've discussed it, too, and all experts said that it wasn't possible.
The experiments showed it was. If you want to know, you must do the
experiments in the conditions which are important to you. No way to know
otherwise.

> I have also heard some rumours that the high speed Rotax engines don't
> take kindly to the extended full power operation necessary when
> towing, and the lifetime is shortened. Can you comment on this please

I've heard all kinds of rumours. No, I can't comment on the lifetime of
Rotaxen, sorry.

Stefan

[Peter Wyld]

At 00:24 01 November 2004, John Giddy wrote:
........
>Stefan,
>Have they done any tests at high altitude airfields
>? My memory of
>Swiss gliding fields is that they are in valleys, with
>reasonably low
>altitude. If I am wrong, please correct me, as my knowledge
>is
>fragmentary regarding your lovely country.
>We have discussed ultralight tow planes, but the consesus
>seems to be
>that with high temperatures (40 C is not at all uncommon)
>the high
>density altitude will reduce the performance to an
>unacceptable level.
>I have also heard some rumours that the high speed
>Rotax engines don't
>take kindly to the extended full power operation necessary
>when
>towing, and the lifetime is shortened. Can you comment
>on this please
>?
>Cheers, John G. (Victoria, Australia)
>

John,
talk to the South African guys here. At Gariep Dam
they use a Samba (Rotax engined microlight) for towing
and that is 4000+ft and hot.
http://www.gariepgliding.com/airfield_data.htm#space
http://aeroklubuo.macroware.cz/Lambadaen.html