Learning to fly...

[JohnWN in Burke, VA]

Hi, I'm looking for a way to learn to soar that is safe, efficient, and as
inexpensive as possible because I have to sell this to my wife.

Since I live in the Washington, D.C. area, I believe that the best soaring
areas are probably in New York and in the western USA (I ignorant so please
correct me.). I also believe that I will be a better, 60 year old, pilot
if I concentrate my training rather than space it out over a number of
seasons.

Thus, are there clubs that can provide concentrated training for a
"reasonable" price? So far, a good deal is to be found in New Zealand for
about $2700 everything included, but the and the big butt is the approximate
$2000 airfare (I'm guessing on the price) to New Zealand. My uneducated
guess is that the entire process (given good weather) will take about 14 to
18 days from ground school to glider certification.

My plan would be to obtain a license, and then join a local club here in the
Washington, D.C./Virginia/Maryland area. I would appreciate your
recommendations.

Thanks ...john

Below is a copy of the estimate that they emailed me:
From: Peter Newport ]

John,


A New Zealand qualification and gliding hours will be recognised globally. I
estimate that your costs here could be as low as $US40 per day if you stayed
in our campsite and cooked your own food. Bus fare from Christchurch to
Omarama would be around $US70 return. The Learn to Fly Course is $NZ3,900
($US2700) - all inclusive.

A good time would be late January thru to April 2005 - good calm conditions
for training. We run an intensive course system - 5 - 10 flights per day. In
good weather you could be solo in 7 days. We have the world's best
instructors, a modern sailplane fleet, and powerful tow planes. We can also
take you on some stunning scenic flights into the Southern Alps.


We are biased - but believe this to be the best place in the world to learn
to fly gliders. I took a Learn to Fly course here last year - and bought the
company!


Best regards, Peter Newport

Commercial Director

Southern Soaring Ltd

PO Box 41, Omarama

North Otago 8950, NZ

T +64 (0)3 438 9848

F +64 (0)3 438 9847

M +64 (0) 27 248 8800



www.soaring.co.nz




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JohnWN [mailto:jwn-lcsw@...]
Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 11:43 p.m.
To:
Subject: Learning To Fly


Hi, If I book your learn to fly course, can you estimate the additional cost
of expenses that I would incur such as lodging, food, transportation to and
from the airport, etc. I can live and eat cheap for two week. Also, what
is the best time period (best flying weather) to book the course?

I am trying to compare your course to the cost of completing the course
locally in Virginia, USA. The exchange rate, of course, is a factor as well
as the speed of obtaining a rating/license. Is it difficult to transfer the
NZ license to the USA?


Thanks .john

John N...

[Jim Vincent]

Tom Knauff and Doris Grove have a wonderful course that might be perfect for
you.

Check out: http://www.eglider.org/gliderport3.htm

It's under $2k and IMO far more cost effective than joining a club for flight
instruction. Your training will be complete, organized, and effective.

Best of luck!

>Hi, I'm looking for a way to learn to soar that is safe, efficient

>guess is that the entire process (given good weather) will take about 14 to
>18 days from ground school to glider certification.
>
>My plan would be to obtain a license, and then join a local club here in the
>Washington, D.C./Virginia/Maryland area. I would appreciate your
>recommendations.
>
>Thanks ...john
>
>Below is a copy of the estimate that they emailed me:
>From: Peter Newport ]
>
>John,
>
>
>A New Zealand qualification and gliding hours will be recognised globally. I
>estimate that your costs here could be as low as $US40 per day if you stayed
>in our campsite and cooked your own food. Bus fare from Christchurch to
>Omarama would be around $US70 return. The Learn to Fly Course is $NZ3,900
>($US2700) - all inclusive.
>
> A good time would be late January thru to April 2005 - good calm conditions
>for training. We run an intensive course system - 5 - 10 flights per day. In
>good weather you could be solo in 7 days. We have the world's best
>instructors, a modern sailplane fleet, and powerful tow planes. We can also
>take you on some stunning scenic flights into the Southern Alps.
>
>
>We are biased - but believe this to be the best place in the world to learn
>to fly gliders. I took a Learn to Fly course here last year - and bought the
>company!
>
>
>Best regards, Peter Newport
>
>Commercial Director
>
>Southern Soaring Ltd
>
>PO Box 41, Omarama
>
>North Otago 8950, NZ
>
>T +64 (0)3 438 9848
>
>F +64 (0)3 438 9847
>
>M +64 (0) 27 248 8800
>

>
>www.soaring.co.nz
>
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
>From: JohnWN [mailto:jwn-lcsw@...]
>Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 11:43 p.m.
>To:
>Subject: Learning To Fly
>
>
>Hi, If I book your learn to fly course, can you estimate the additional cost
>of expenses that I would incur such as lodging, food, transportation to and
>from the airport, etc. I can live and eat cheap for two week. Also, what
>is the best time period (best flying weather) to book the course?
>
> I am trying to compare your course to the cost of completing the course
>locally in Virginia, USA. The exchange rate, of course, is a factor as well
>as the speed of obtaining a rating/license. Is it difficult to transfer the
>NZ license to the USA?
>
>
>Thanks .john
>
> John N...
>
>
>



Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Chris OCallaghan]

Hello John,

I'll second the recommendation for Ridge Soaring. Tom and Doris run an
exceptional operation just west of State College, PA, about 3.5 hours
from your home. There's a bunk house, so while the cost of flying is
steep (as with any commercial operator), the extras are very
reasonable. Closer to home is the Mid Atlantic Soaring Association. We
run operations from Frederick Airport and our own airport just below
Ski Liberty in Fairfield, PA. Learning to fly in a club environment is
cheaper in dollars, but more expensive in terms of time. A commercial
gliderport can get you soloed in a week. A club is likely to take
several months.

My recommendation is to learn at a commercial operation if it's in
your budget. While we have many fine instructors among our 160
members, none (or very few) are pros. And there's something to be said
for someone who does this work day in and out. After soloing, join the
club and take advantage of its many, many benefits: location,
equipment, cheap tows, concentrated experience, enthusiasm,
commeraderie, x-county flying, racing, etc...

OC

[Mark Zivley]

On the other hand, there have been people who have gone to these
commercial operators, stayed for a week, gotten soloed, and perhaps
their license who are a danger to themselves and to others due to this
"show up, pay your money, get your ticket" opportunity. Now I'll say
that this is NOT the case for Knauff. Ridge Soaring is a high quality
operation. I, and others, have seen the lack of proficiency of some
rated pilots who decided to get their ticket in a week for one lump sum
via a commercial operator. It's also an arguable benefit to dealing
with a few different instructors in your training. You're guaranteed to
see a broader range of instruction as a result, "pro" or not.

> My recommendation is to learn at a commercial operation if it's in
> your budget. While we have many fine instructors among our 160
> members, none (or very few) are pros. And there's something to be said
> for someone who does this work day in and out. After soloing, join the
> club and take advantage of its many, many benefits: location,
> equipment, cheap tows, concentrated experience, enthusiasm,
> commeraderie, x-county flying, racing, etc...
>
> OC

[Jim Vincent]

>Learning to fly in a club environment is
>cheaper in dollars, but more expensive in terms of time.

I differ with you there. Let's look at some financials:

Average number of flights to solo: 40 (real range is low of 30, high of 100,
mean about 45)
Cost per flight: $25
Total flight expense to solo: $1,000
Entrance Fee: $500
Annual membership fees: $675
Total expense to solo, if solo in 1 year: $2,175
Total expense to solo, if solo in 2 years: $2,850

40 flights to solo is the absolute minimum at my club, I think reality is
closer to 60. They also take two seasons to solo for most students. So, the
cost for 2 years is far more realistic.

Add in three mandatory duty days per year, waiting around for up to three hours
per day that you have scheduled flight instruction, decrease those by 30% for
not being able to fly due to underscheduling tow pilots...pretty high
intangible costs.

Oh, Tom throws in the books you need, so there is about another $100
difference.

Of course, I am only talking about my club as an example, I can't speak for
MASA or any other regional club.

Never mind that at Ridge Soaring, they will follow a syllabus, you won't get
bounced around to ten different instructors, and once it is time to get your
license, Tom is a designated examiner who will know you by then (that could be
good or bad). In addition, there will be no holes in your knowledge base and
you will progress far, far faster. You will be safe.





Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Jim Vincent]

>It's also an arguable benefit to dealing
>with a few different instructors in your training. You're guaranteed to
>see a broader range of instruction as a result, "pro" or not.

At Tom's, he has at least two or three instructors for each week. You'll get
to fly with each of them and acquire different "golden nuggets" and pointers.
It is a great team effort where all the students are mutally supportive and the
instructors act as a team.

I assure you, you will not solo until you are ready. But, given the amount of
training and your committment, there is a very high chance you will at least be
close.

Or you can go with the club approach where cross country, wave flying, landing
off field, and competion are hypothetical issues for the majority of the
instructor. Go with the Ridge...you'll have a foundation for transitioning
from gliding to Soaring!

Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
(Jim Vincent) wrote:

> Or you can go with the club approach where cross country, wave flying, landing
> off field, and competion are hypothetical issues for the majority of the
> instructor. Go with the Ridge...you'll have a foundation for transitioning
> from gliding to Soaring!

You must have quite different clubs than here in NZ. I think our club
has something like 18 instructors and we have problems fielding enough
of them in competition season.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[Chris OCallaghan]

Your numbers are good, but I'll add the following:

If the pilot intends to join a club after solo to take advantage of
the cheaper tow and rental rates, then entrance fees and annual dues
apply to both sides of the cost equation. A commercial operater
probably averages closer to $60 per flight (double the tow, 4 times
the rental rates, and instructor), so the flying alone will be at
least $2,700 (assuming 45 flights to solo). That's the first week!
Apples to apples, that 2.7 times more than a club. (You will probably
solo in thirty flights, though, so maybe $1,800.)

That said, if it's in your budget, I'd still follow Jim's advice. Get
the basics from the pros. They are better at it. When it comes to the
art of soaring, there are real advantages to the club.

BTW, if memory serves, our initiation fee is $450 and our annual dues
are $275. Tows are about $15.00 to 2000 agl and most gliders rent for
$10 per hour (2-33, K-8, K-7, Pilatus, 1-36) and our Grob rents for
$20. Instruction is free. Of course there are hidden costs. If you do
anything remotely noteworthy, you'll probably be asked to buy a case
of beer. And, of course, there's the pressure you'll feel to buy a
high performance glider. That's another $40k - $100k.


>
> Average number of flights to solo: 40 (real range is low of 30, high of 100,
> mean about 45)
> Cost per flight: $25
> Total flight expense to solo: $1,000
> Entrance Fee: $500
> Annual membership fees: $675
> Total expense to solo, if solo in 1 year: $2,175
> Total expense to solo, if solo in 2 years: $2,850
>