A tragedy - a Minden death today!

[David Bingham]

Hi Gang
As we all know Mother Nature can be unforgiving to errors in the
air. Alan Pratt who was an experienced pilot bought a Carat motor
glider about 4 months ago. This single place motor glider is one of the
most benign machines available. I flew the first in the US and gave it
a rave review.
Today set up as a typical wave day with a blue slot east of the Sierras
and the lennies setting up with rotor clouds about 5 miles east of the
Sierras. Alan spoke to friends and said he was going for a short flight
but without a parachute which he felt was unnecessary for this aircraft,
and without oxygen because his system had a leak. Alan had little or no
experience with the wave and the rotor associated with the wave.
Pieces of the glider fell over a wide area and Alan did not survive.
Apparently a wing came off and the glider disintegrated. What happened?
We can only surmise. The fact that the glider disintegrated suggests
that VNE (Never to Exceed speed) had been exceeded and that speeds
approaching 200 knots or more had been reached. How could this have
happened? Maybe he got trapped in the several layers of lennies and
just lost it. Hopefully he had his flight recorder on and that will give us
more information. I have had 2 bad experiences in the wave and have
survived it - through luck. Alan was not so lucky.
Please before flying in the wave, especially the Minden wave, get a
briefing and don't shortcut the parachute and oxygen. This really
disturbs me.
Dave

[Bob Korves]

Allan was a regular contributor to this group. His user name was ADP. He
will be missed...
-Bob Korves

"David Bingham" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi Gang
> As we all know Mother Nature can be unforgiving to errors in the
> air. Alan Pratt who was an experienced pilot bought a Carat motor
> glider about 4 months ago. This single place motor glider is one of the
> most benign machines available. I flew the first in the US and gave it
> a rave review.
> Today set up as a typical wave day with a blue slot east of the Sierras
> and the lennies setting up with rotor clouds about 5 miles east of the
> Sierras. Alan spoke to friends and said he was going for a short flight
> but without a parachute which he felt was unnecessary for this aircraft,
> and without oxygen because his system had a leak. Alan had little or no
> experience with the wave and the rotor associated with the wave.
> Pieces of the glider fell over a wide area and Alan did not survive.
> Apparently a wing came off and the glider disintegrated. What happened?
> We can only surmise. The fact that the glider disintegrated suggests
> that VNE (Never to Exceed speed) had been exceeded and that speeds
> approaching 200 knots or more had been reached. How could this have
> happened? Maybe he got trapped in the several layers of lennies and
> just lost it. Hopefully he had his flight recorder on and that will give
us
> more information. I have had 2 bad experiences in the wave and have
> survived it - through luck. Alan was not so lucky.
> Please before flying in the wave, especially the Minden wave, get a
> briefing and don't shortcut the parachute and oxygen. This really
> disturbs me.
> Dave

[James]

FWIW, I was on a Southwest Airlines flight from RNO to San Jose, CA on
the morning of this accident. We departed around 9:30AM about three
hours before the crash. At that time the surface winds were
relatively calm. Conditions were broken overcast with some small
lennies ahead of a cold front coming in from the west. The flight
took off to the south and we flew directly over Carson City. When we
were over Carson, we experienced a very brief but significant amount
of turbulence which apparently was from rotor. The right wing dropped
and it felt as though we weather-vaned into the wind. A few seconds
later the plane straightened out and we continued flying towards
Minden through some minor chop until we were above the lenies. The
captain kept the flight attendents seated until we were in the Central
Valley.


(David Bingham) wrote in message >...
> Hi Gang
> As we all know Mother Nature can be unforgiving to errors in the
> air. Alan Pratt who was an experienced pilot bought a Carat motor
> glider about 4 months ago. This single place motor glider is one of the
> most benign machines available. I flew the first in the US and gave it
> a rave review.
> Today set up as a typical wave day with a blue slot east of the Sierras
> and the lennies setting up with rotor clouds about 5 miles east of the
> Sierras. Alan spoke to friends and said he was going for a short flight
> but without a parachute which he felt was unnecessary for this aircraft,
> and without oxygen because his system had a leak. Alan had little or no
> experience with the wave and the rotor associated with the wave.
> Pieces of the glider fell over a wide area and Alan did not survive.
> Apparently a wing came off and the glider disintegrated. What happened?
> We can only surmise. The fact that the glider disintegrated suggests
> that VNE (Never to Exceed speed) had been exceeded and that speeds
> approaching 200 knots or more had been reached. How could this have
> happened? Maybe he got trapped in the several layers of lennies and
> just lost it. Hopefully he had his flight recorder on and that will give us
> more information. I have had 2 bad experiences in the wave and have
> survived it - through luck. Alan was not so lucky.
> Please before flying in the wave, especially the Minden wave, get a
> briefing and don't shortcut the parachute and oxygen. This really
> disturbs me.
> Dave

[James]

FWIW, I was on a Southwest Airlines flight from RNO to San Jose, CA on
the morning of this accident. We departed around 9:30AM about three
hours before the crash. At that time the surface winds were
relatively calm. Conditions were broken overcast with some small
lennies ahead of a cold front coming in from the west. The flight
took off to the south and we flew directly over Carson City. When we
were over Carson, we experienced a very brief but significant amount
of turbulence which apparently was from rotor. The right wing dropped
and it felt as though we weather-vaned into the wind. A few seconds
later the plane straightened out and we continued flying towards
Minden through some minor chop until we were above the lenies. The
captain kept the flight attendents seated until we were in the Central
Valley.


(David Bingham) wrote in message >...
> Hi Gang
> As we all know Mother Nature can be unforgiving to errors in the
> air. Alan Pratt who was an experienced pilot bought a Carat motor
> glider about 4 months ago. This single place motor glider is one of the
> most benign machines available. I flew the first in the US and gave it
> a rave review.
> Today set up as a typical wave day with a blue slot east of the Sierras
> and the lennies setting up with rotor clouds about 5 miles east of the
> Sierras. Alan spoke to friends and said he was going for a short flight
> but without a parachute which he felt was unnecessary for this aircraft,
> and without oxygen because his system had a leak. Alan had little or no
> experience with the wave and the rotor associated with the wave.
> Pieces of the glider fell over a wide area and Alan did not survive.
> Apparently a wing came off and the glider disintegrated. What happened?
> We can only surmise. The fact that the glider disintegrated suggests
> that VNE (Never to Exceed speed) had been exceeded and that speeds
> approaching 200 knots or more had been reached. How could this have
> happened? Maybe he got trapped in the several layers of lennies and
> just lost it. Hopefully he had his flight recorder on and that will give us
> more information. I have had 2 bad experiences in the wave and have
> survived it - through luck. Alan was not so lucky.
> Please before flying in the wave, especially the Minden wave, get a
> briefing and don't shortcut the parachute and oxygen. This really
> disturbs me.
> Dave

[Ian Strachan]

In article >, David
Bingham > writes
>Hi Gang
> As we all know Mother Nature can be unforgiving to errors in the
>air. Alan Pratt who was an experienced pilot bought a Carat motor
>glider about 4 months ago. This single place motor glider is one of the
>most benign machines available.

As a motor glider operator myself, some more details on this machine
would be useful. Forgive my ignorance but I have not heard of a Carat
motor glider. Who makes it, what are its dimensions and other
characteristics, etc.?

Regarding this tragic accident, in my syndicate we always fly with
parachutes and when at a wave site we always have oxygen.

--
Ian Strachan
Lasham Gliding Centre, UK

[Shawn]

Ian Strachan wrote:
> In article >, David
> Bingham > writes
>
>> Hi Gang
>> As we all know Mother Nature can be unforgiving to errors in the
>> air. Alan Pratt who was an experienced pilot bought a Carat motor
>> glider about 4 months ago. This single place motor glider is one of the
>> most benign machines available.
>
>
> As a motor glider operator myself, some more details on this machine
> would be useful. Forgive my ignorance but I have not heard of a Carat
> motor glider. Who makes it, what are its dimensions and other
> characteristics, etc.?
>
> Regarding this tragic accident, in my syndicate we always fly with
> parachutes and when at a wave site we always have oxygen.
>
http://www.soarfl.com/technoflug.htm

Uses Discus wings. Pretty slick concept. I don't understand the lack
of O2 and 'chute-if accurate news.

My condolences to friends and family.

Shawn

[Limus A.]

I was at the Minden that day. I was just pushing out my glider getting
ready to take-off when I heard about the accident. Another guy, Steve,
had just landed after flying the wave for a while and he said that it
was very smooth for a Minden wave, just a few little bumps during his
flight. Of course, he might have just gotten lucky, or was more
experienced with a wave. There was almost no wind at all on the
ground, but high above the wave was going strong.

I think the crash site was just a mile or so downwind from the edge of
the wave cloud.

Here is a report from The Record Courier:
http://www.recordcourier.com/article/20041023/BREAKING/41023001

They say the eyewitness heard high revving engine sound. Could it be
that pilot got into strong sink, pulled out the engine and tried to
get away from the sink as fast as he could, then hit strong turbulence
?

Limus
128LA

(James) wrote in message >...
> FWIW, I was on a Southwest Airlines flight from RNO to San Jose, CA on
> the morning of this accident. We departed around 9:30AM about three
> hours before the crash. At that time the surface winds were
> relatively calm. Conditions were broken overcast with some small
> lennies ahead of a cold front coming in from the west. The flight
> took off to the south and we flew directly over Carson City. When we
> were over Carson, we experienced a very brief but significant amount
> of turbulence which apparently was from rotor. The right wing dropped
> and it felt as though we weather-vaned into the wind. A few seconds
> later the plane straightened out and we continued flying towards
> Minden through some minor chop until we were above the lenies. The
> captain kept the flight attendents seated until we were in the Central
> Valley.

[Daniel]

Ian Strachan > wrote in message >...

> As a motor glider operator myself, some more details on this machine
> would be useful. Forgive my ignorance but I have not heard of a Carat
> motor glider. Who makes it, what are its dimensions and other
> characteristics, etc.?
>
> Regarding this tragic accident, in my syndicate we always fly with
> parachutes and when at a wave site we always have oxygen.

Details on Carat at: http://www.ams-flight.si/ SOARING magazine had a
recent complimentary review. Tragic accident.

Dan
Colorado Springs

[Mark James Boyd]

Oh my God! I am very upset to learn of this. I really enjoyed his
contributions. This is very sad...

In article >,
Bob Korves <bkorves@winfirstDECIMALcom> wrote:
>Allan was a regular contributor to this group. His user name was ADP. He
>will be missed...
>-Bob Korves
>
>"David Bingham" > wrote in message
om...
>> Hi Gang
>> As we all know Mother Nature can be unforgiving to errors in the
>> air. Alan Pratt who was an experienced pilot bought a Carat motor
>> glider about 4 months ago. This single place motor glider is one of the
>> most benign machines available. I flew the first in the US and gave it
>> a rave review.
>> Today set up as a typical wave day with a blue slot east of the Sierras
>> and the lennies setting up with rotor clouds about 5 miles east of the
>> Sierras. Alan spoke to friends and said he was going for a short flight
>> but without a parachute which he felt was unnecessary for this aircraft,
>> and without oxygen because his system had a leak. Alan had little or no
>> experience with the wave and the rotor associated with the wave.
>> Pieces of the glider fell over a wide area and Alan did not survive.
>> Apparently a wing came off and the glider disintegrated. What happened?
>> We can only surmise. The fact that the glider disintegrated suggests
>> that VNE (Never to Exceed speed) had been exceeded and that speeds
>> approaching 200 knots or more had been reached. How could this have
>> happened? Maybe he got trapped in the several layers of lennies and
>> just lost it. Hopefully he had his flight recorder on and that will give
>us
>> more information. I have had 2 bad experiences in the wave and have
>> survived it - through luck. Alan was not so lucky.
>> Please before flying in the wave, especially the Minden wave, get a
>> briefing and don't shortcut the parachute and oxygen. This really
>> disturbs me.
>> Dave
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[John Sinclair]

I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
This scenario would square with the apparent total
loss of control while still under full power. Food
for thought.

This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
JJ Sinclair

[Shawn]

John Sinclair wrote:
> I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
> typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
> that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
> can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
> expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
> This scenario would square with the apparent total
> loss of control while still under full power. Food
> for thought.
>
> This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
> My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
> JJ Sinclair
>
>
>
CO poisoning is easy to test for and would show up in the PM.

Shawn

[Bill Daniels]

"John Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
> typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
> that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
> can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
> expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
> This scenario would square with the apparent total
> loss of control while still under full power. Food
> for thought.
>
> This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
> My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
> JJ Sinclair
>
>
Heating a cockpit with an exhaust muff is one of the dumbest ideas in the
history of aviation. All recips can benefit from an oil cooler so why not
heat the cabin with hot oil?

Bill Daniels

[tango4]

Except two strokes perhaps.Point taken though.

The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and on
so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two expensive
radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat exchanger
to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg of
radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can see
why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.

Ian

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
news:9rjfd.315606$D%.36715@attbi_s51...
>
> "John Sinclair" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
>> typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
>> that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
>> can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
>> expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
>> This scenario would square with the apparent total
>> loss of control while still under full power. Food
>> for thought.
>>
>> This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
>> My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
>> JJ Sinclair
>>
>>
> Heating a cockpit with an exhaust muff is one of the dumbest ideas in the
> history of aviation. All recips can benefit from an oil cooler so why not
> heat the cabin with hot oil?
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Clint]

>
> Uses Discus wings. Pretty slick concept. I don't understand the lack
> of O2 and 'chute-if accurate news.
>
> My condolences to friends and family.
>
> Shawn

I wonder in the Carat wings were checked along with the other Discus
wings (or was it only Duo's with the problems)?

Clinton
LAK 12

[Graeme Cant]

tango4 wrote:

> The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and on
> so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two expensive
> radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat exchanger
> to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg of
> radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can see
> why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.

The exhaust muff systems don't control the source of heat, they control
the proportion of heated air entering the cockpit. Oil heated systems
would/could use almost exactly the same plumbing and controls.

I think the main objection would be to having a permanent faint whiff of
oil in the cabin air.

Graeme Cant

>
> Ian
>
> "Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
> news:9rjfd.315606$D%.36715@attbi_s51...
>
>>"John Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
>>>typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
>>>that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
>>>can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
>>>expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
>>>This scenario would square with the apparent total
>>>loss of control while still under full power. Food
>>>for thought.
>>>
>>>This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
>>>My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
>>>JJ Sinclair
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Heating a cockpit with an exhaust muff is one of the dumbest ideas in the
>>history of aviation. All recips can benefit from an oil cooler so why not
>>heat the cabin with hot oil?
>>
>>Bill Daniels
>>
>
>
>

[Martin Hellman]

I met Allan only about two months ago, but his infectious good humor
and general manner of being immediately made him a valued friend. We
flew together in my two place ship just a month ago and had a great
time. The call Saturday afternoon telling me of his death was a real
shock. One minute he's here, the next he's gone.

Understandably, there has been some speculation on the cause of this
tragedy, and at a personal level, it's almost impossible to stop. But,
out of respect for Allan as well as the truth, I would encourage us to
wait for the NTSB report. Allan was an ATP who flew for a major
airline for many years and did not impress me as one to take safety
lightly.

When accidents happen there's a natural human tendency to try and find
something that the other guy did wrong so we can convince ourselves
that "it couldn't happen to me." I'd encourage instead that we try to
find any parallels between whatever might have caused this accident
(even if it didn't) and our own thinking. That way, maybe Allan's
death can help save someone else.

On parachutes for example: When I first got into mountain soaring in
1994, I debated whether or not to get parachutes. On the one hand,
they were a huge plus if you had to bail out. That's a no brainer. But
I also had heard stories where the extra decision step -- "should I
bail out?" -- had made incidents worse. In one case I heard of, a
pilot with a broken arm had deployed her chute in the plane by
accident and had to land that way. So there were plusses and minusses
to chutes.

As I was debating the issue, a friend sent me a copy of an article on
mountain wave, with a title that probably included the word monster.
Having flown in wave a number of times, my first reaction was, "Yes
there are dangers, but wave itself is the smoothest form of lift.
Probably written by a power pilot who hasn't experienced the beauty of
wave." Was I wrong.

It was written about two gliders exploring the Sierra wave in the
early days. One of them encountered such severe rotor turbulence --
estimated at 15 g's -- that it broke up and the pilot on initial bail
out was going UP! Chastened, I went out and bought two chutes. Further
investigation has led me to fly with chutes even in benign conditions.
(When I asked my rigger about using chutes in general, he told me of a
friend who'd be here if he had. Another plane clipped his tail in the
pattern, making his ship uncontrollable.) So Allan's flying without a
chute was not what I do now, but it was something I had contemplated.

Similarly, the lack of oxygen on the flight looks really bad in hind
sight but may have played no part in this accident. Allan had told a
mutual friend that he wasn't going to go high enough on this flight to
need it. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from even the
possibility that lack of oxygen contributed to the accident. Just that
we should try not to insulate ourselves from the danger by pretending
we'd never do anything similar. Most of us have.

Hoping these comments prove helpful and with fond memories of Allan.

Martin

[Gary Boggs]

After attending two high altitude chamber sessions and learning just how
diminished we are at even 8K, I use my O2 starting much lower than the FAA
requires. You don't use much when you are down low and some of us need all
the brain power we can get!

O2 is cheap compared to what you might gain from it.

Gary Boggs

"Martin Hellman" > wrote in message
m...
> I met Allan only about two months ago, but his infectious good humor
> and general manner of being immediately made him a valued friend. We
> flew together in my two place ship just a month ago and had a great
> time. The call Saturday afternoon telling me of his death was a real
> shock. One minute he's here, the next he's gone.
>
> Understandably, there has been some speculation on the cause of this
> tragedy, and at a personal level, it's almost impossible to stop. But,
> out of respect for Allan as well as the truth, I would encourage us to
> wait for the NTSB report. Allan was an ATP who flew for a major
> airline for many years and did not impress me as one to take safety
> lightly.
>
> When accidents happen there's a natural human tendency to try and find
> something that the other guy did wrong so we can convince ourselves
> that "it couldn't happen to me." I'd encourage instead that we try to
> find any parallels between whatever might have caused this accident
> (even if it didn't) and our own thinking. That way, maybe Allan's
> death can help save someone else.
>
> On parachutes for example: When I first got into mountain soaring in
> 1994, I debated whether or not to get parachutes. On the one hand,
> they were a huge plus if you had to bail out. That's a no brainer. But
> I also had heard stories where the extra decision step -- "should I
> bail out?" -- had made incidents worse. In one case I heard of, a
> pilot with a broken arm had deployed her chute in the plane by
> accident and had to land that way. So there were plusses and minusses
> to chutes.
>
> As I was debating the issue, a friend sent me a copy of an article on
> mountain wave, with a title that probably included the word monster.
> Having flown in wave a number of times, my first reaction was, "Yes
> there are dangers, but wave itself is the smoothest form of lift.
> Probably written by a power pilot who hasn't experienced the beauty of
> wave." Was I wrong.
>
> It was written about two gliders exploring the Sierra wave in the
> early days. One of them encountered such severe rotor turbulence --
> estimated at 15 g's -- that it broke up and the pilot on initial bail
> out was going UP! Chastened, I went out and bought two chutes. Further
> investigation has led me to fly with chutes even in benign conditions.
> (When I asked my rigger about using chutes in general, he told me of a
> friend who'd be here if he had. Another plane clipped his tail in the
> pattern, making his ship uncontrollable.) So Allan's flying without a
> chute was not what I do now, but it was something I had contemplated.
>
> Similarly, the lack of oxygen on the flight looks really bad in hind
> sight but may have played no part in this accident. Allan had told a
> mutual friend that he wasn't going to go high enough on this flight to
> need it. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from even the
> possibility that lack of oxygen contributed to the accident. Just that
> we should try not to insulate ourselves from the danger by pretending
> we'd never do anything similar. Most of us have.
>
> Hoping these comments prove helpful and with fond memories of Allan.
>
> Martin

[Stefan]

Gary Boggs wrote:

> After attending two high altitude chamber sessions and learning just how
> diminished we are at even 8K, I use my O2 starting much lower than the FAA
> requires. You don't use much when you are down low and some of us need all
> the brain power we can get!

In our club, we have equipped all our ships with the EDS-D1 system.
(Each member brings his/her own cannula or mask, of course.) It has
become common practise to use the cannula for every cross country
flight. With the EDS system, the oxygen lasts forever.

It was an investment, but it feels good to wake up the day after an 8
hour flight at 9000 ft without a headache!

Stefan

[Ulrich Neumann]

> Except two strokes perhaps.Point taken though.
>
> The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and on
> so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two expensive
> radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat exchanger
> to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg of
> radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can see
> why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.
>
> Ian

Not quite so, Ian. The oil cooler would always be cooling the oil,
just what you do with the warm air downstream from it is the issue. A
simple vane valve diverts the warm air either into the cabine or out
into the atmosphere. Simple and light-weight!

Uli

[Bill Daniels]

"Ulrich Neumann" > wrote in message
om...
> > Except two strokes perhaps.Point taken though.
> >
> > The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and
on
> > so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two
expensive
> > radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat
exchanger
> > to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg
of
> > radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can
see
> > why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.
> >
> > Ian
>
> Not quite so, Ian. The oil cooler would always be cooling the oil,
> just what you do with the warm air downstream from it is the issue. A
> simple vane valve diverts the warm air either into the cabine or out
> into the atmosphere. Simple and light-weight!
>
> Uli

Once while droning through a cold, wet and bumpy night I got to thinking
that of all the things I could be worrying about, the worst was that 2mm of
red hot steel separating hot, poisonous exhaust gasses from the cabin air.
Exhaust muffs are scary.

It's one of the reasons I enjoy flying gliders more than airplanes.

Bill Daniels

[Steve / Sperry]

I think a better comparison is a car heater. It utilizes the
antifreeze and operates below boiling temperatures. I would think that
the oil temps would be greater than the water temps.

I would assume that at some point the oil will be hot enough to flow
through the oil cooler and not bypass the oil cooler.

So as long as fresh air is used to cool the oil cooler, the heat could
be directed into the cabin with an air bypass on the egress side of
the oil cooler. Or a second oil cooler could be installed in the cabin
with a heater box that could open or close an air vent.

I agree with the concern of running the air past the muffler. For that
reason I disconnect the air duct from the muffler to the heater
system. In the areas that I fly it does not get cold.

Exhaust heaters are beyond my margins for safety.

Steve


On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:17:19 -0400, Todd Pattist
> wrote:

(Ulrich Neumann) wrote:
>
>>Not quite so, Ian. The oil cooler would always be cooling the oil,
>>just what you do with the warm air downstream from it is the issue. A
>>simple vane valve diverts the warm air either into the cabine or out
>>into the atmosphere. Simple and light-weight!
>
>Not so simple or light. Oil runs at a far lower max temp
>than exhaust. It's also far more viscous, especially when
>cold. To get comparable heat transfer you would need to
>provide much more surface area than an exhaust muff. That
>means more weight. You'd probably need to run the oil
>through a heat exchanger, which means forcing viscous oil
>through small diameter heat exchanger tubes. Of course, you
>can't do that until the oil is hot, so you'd probably need a
>bypass system and you've got to be careful not to block up
>the heat exchanger tubes, stop oil flow and blow the
>engine.
>
>Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
>(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

[Tony Verhulst]

> Exhaust heaters are beyond my margins for safety.

Which is why the Sylane that I own (a small piece of) has a very good
electronic Carbon Monoxide dectector.

Tony V

[nafod40]

Do these motors have generators or alternators of some sort? An
electrically heated seat (think heating pad) might not be a bad idea.

[Ian Cant]

But I get cold feet at the thought of sitting in the
hot seat..

Ian



At 20:06 27 October 2004, Nafod40 wrote:
>Do these motors have generators or alternators of some
>sort? An
>electrically heated seat (think heating pad) might
>not be a bad idea.
>
>

[COLIN LAMB]

"Do these motors have generators or alternators of some sort? An
electrically heated seat (think heating pad) might not be a bad idea."

Electric heating is inefficient. Any energy used in heating a seat would
directly subtract from energy available for a climb. 10 amperes would
provide 100 watts of electric seat heating, however that is the easiest part
of the body to insulate without additional heat.

Although this thread seems to fear heat from the exhaust system, most of the
small aircraft use this method and FAA statistics indicate that it is the
cause of only a small percentage of the accidents. It is even less likely
to occur on a new exhaust manifold. A simple carbon monoxide detector can
alleviate concerns over this danger. My motorglider gets cabin heat over
the exhaust and that is a small concern. My biggest concern is the person
sitting in the front seat, as statistics generally point to them as the weak
link.

Colin N12HS





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[Jim Vincent]

Sorry People, I had to rename this thread...it is rather off topic and does not
reflect the sensitivity the original postings had.

Jim Vincent
N483SZ