Re: Winches (was Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine?

[[email protected]]

In addition to AGCSC, there is a winch at Twentynine Palms, and one run
by the CAP somewhere around LA. That makes at least three known
winches operating in California.

[Phoebus N196J]

Hey Guys:
Check out this site........http://www.permiansoaring.us/ They have
built their own state of the art winch and it sounds like they did it
on a shoe string.

[tango4]

Nice winch but I wouldn't fly up it until you have the guillotine setup
sorted out!

Nice 'rock polishing' photo on your home page.

Ian

"Phoebus N196J" > wrote in message
m...
> Hey Guys:
> Check out this site........http://www.permiansoaring.us/ They have
> built their own state of the art winch and it sounds like they did it
> on a shoe string.

[Jim Vincent]

Here is a design that one of my friends designed tfor our club winch. The
beauty of this design is that there is no chance of getting a finger cut and it
works perfectly.

The design is based on a rotating cylinder mounted inside a metal cube. The
metal cube has a hole drilled through it through the center line. The cylinder
also has a hole drilled through it. In normal use, the hole in the cube lines
up with the holein the cylinder. To activate, a handle rotates the cylinder,
which the cylinder rotatesImagine an 8 inch square solid metal cube.


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>Nice winch but I wouldn't fly up it until you have the guillotine setup
>sorted out!



Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[André Somers]

Phoebus N196J wrote:

> Hey Guys:
> Check out this site........http://www.permiansoaring.us/ They have
> built their own state of the art winch and it sounds like they did it
> on a shoe string.

On this page
(http://www.zweefvlieg.net/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.pagina&id=279) you can
find some information on the winch the Aeroclub Salland took into service
this season. The site in in Dutch, but here are some key features:
-6 drums
-diesel motor driving an hydrolic pump
-drums driven by an hydrolic motor
-automatic adjustment of speed and force (launch is practicly automatic, but
manual override is possible).
-dynema cable (lighter and stronger than steel)

This is what I considder 'state of the art'...

André

[Bill Daniels]

"André Somers" > wrote in message
...
> Phoebus N196J wrote:
>
> > Hey Guys:
> > Check out this site........http://www.permiansoaring.us/ They have
> > built their own state of the art winch and it sounds like they did it
> > on a shoe string.
>
> On this page
> (http://www.zweefvlieg.net/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.pagina&id=279) you
can
> find some information on the winch the Aeroclub Salland took into service
> this season. The site in in Dutch, but here are some key features:
> -6 drums
> -diesel motor driving an hydrolic pump
> -drums driven by an hydrolic motor
> -automatic adjustment of speed and force (launch is practicly automatic,
but
> manual override is possible).
> -dynema cable (lighter and stronger than steel)
>
> This is what I considder 'state of the art'...
>
> André

WOW! State of the art indeed!

I'd sure like to get more details on this winch in English.

Bill Daniels

[Bill Daniels]

"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> (Jim Vincent) wrote:
> >Here is a design that one of my friends designed tfor our club winch.
The
> >beauty of this design is that there is no chance of getting a finger cut
and it
> >works perfectly.
> >
> >The design is based on a rotating cylinder mounted inside a metal cube.
The
> >metal cube has a hole drilled through it through the center line. The
cylinder
> >also has a hole drilled through it. In normal use, the hole in the cube
lines
> >up with the holein the cylinder. To activate, a handle rotates the
cylinder,
> >which the cylinder rotatesImagine an 8 inch square solid metal cube.
>
> Spectra can be tough to cut. Are they using this design
> with Spectra?
> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Spectra cuts OK with a sharp edge but blunt steel cutters may have a problem
with it.

The stuff melts below 300F so the people who work with it regularly use hot
blade knives to cut it. It shouldn't be too hard to make a guillotine with
an electrically heated blade.

Bill Daniels

[Steve Hill]

I don't understand all the worry of a guillotine or cutter, if you are
flying with a weak link...?? Isn't the idea of the weak link that you can
induce a break in hte even things all go awry..??

Can someone clarify a bit further please...



Steve.

[André Somers]

Steve Hill wrote:

> I don't understand all the worry of a guillotine or cutter, if you are
> flying with a weak link...?? Isn't the idea of the weak link that you can
> induce a break in hte even things all go awry..??
>
> Can someone clarify a bit further please...

No, a weak link is to prevent overstressing the glider during the launch.
Here in the Netherlands, a cutter installation is mandatory on a winch.

André

[Bill Daniels]

"Steve Hill" > wrote in message
...
> I don't understand all the worry of a guillotine or cutter, if you are
> flying with a weak link...?? Isn't the idea of the weak link that you can
> induce a break in hte even things all go awry..??
>
> Can someone clarify a bit further please...
>
>
>
> Steve.
>
The winch weak link is pretty strong - about 1.3 times the gross weight of
the glider. You can break it but I wouldn't want to rely on that option.

The most common reason for firing a guillotine 'in anger' is that the lead
rope has fouled with the gliders wheel or skid so the pilot can't release.
This may happen when the glider gets jerked forward and rolls over the rope
in an unsteady start. That shouldn't happen if the lead rope is very stiff
as it is supposed to be. (BTW, this can also happen with air tow.)

Your inferred point that a guillotine is rarely needed is true. But, like a
parachute, it's pretty handy to have if the need arises.

Bill Daniels

[Jim Vincent]

I hit send by mistake before I was done writing...

There is a radius on the block where the rope enters the metal block. However,
at the junction of the block and the cylinder, both are left sharp edged. I
don't recall, but the cylinder may be bored out on the inside so there is
effectively a cutting edge.

This should work fine with spectra. I don't think an electrically heated blade
is the way to go because it takes time to heat the blade. When you want to use
a guillotine, you want to use it NOW!

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>"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
>> (Jim Vincent) wrote:
>> >Here is a design that one of my friends designed tfor our club winch.
>The
>> >beauty of this design is that there is no chance of getting a finger cut
>and it
>> >works perfectly.
>> >
>> >The design is based on a rotating cylinder mounted inside a metal cube.
>The
>> >metal cube has a hole drilled through it through the center line. The
>cylinder
>> >also has a hole drilled through it. In normal use, the hole in the cube
>lines
>> >up with the holein the cylinder. To activate, a handle rotates the
>cylinder,
>> >which the cylinder rotatesImagine an 8 inch square solid metal cube.
>>
>> Spectra can be tough to cut. Are they using this design
>> with Spectra?
>> Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
>> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
>
>Spectra cuts OK with a sharp edge but blunt steel cutters may have a problem
>with it.
>
>The stuff melts below 300F so the people who work with it regularly use hot
>blade knives to cut it. It shouldn't be too hard to make a guillotine with
>an electrically heated blade.
>
>Bill Daniels



Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Bill Daniels]

"Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> I hit send by mistake before I was done writing...

> This should work fine with spectra. I don't think an electrically heated
blade
> is the way to go because it takes time to heat the blade. When you want
to use
> a guillotine, you want to use it NOW!
>

The more I think about it, the more I like the rotating cylinder in a block
idea . It's very robust, easy to make and the cutting edges are protected.
Sharpening the edges would just be a matter of using a cylinder hone in a
hand drill. The Spectra could be protected from the edges with a cut-able,
thin wall plastic tube inserted into the through-hole.

Bill Daniels

[Jim Vincent]

I put a quick and dirty diagram of the rotating guillotine on my website:

www.mymedtrans.com/personal.htm

After looking at the diagram, I realize there is no need to bore out the inside
of the barrel because when it rotates it presents a sharp cutting edge to the
rope.

My guess is that it would work just fine with Spectra.






Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Jim Vincent]

I have to give Andrew Meads full credit for the design. We were all trying to
figure out a solution about five years ago and he came up with the best idea.
We were averse to using a hatchet or scissors.




>The more I think about it, the more I like the rotating cylinder in a block
>idea . It's very robust, easy to make and the cutting edges are protected.
>Sharpening the edges would just be a matter of using a cylinder hone in a
>hand drill. The Spectra could be protected from the edges with a cut-able,
>thin wall plastic tube inserted into the through-hole.
>
>Bill Daniels
>


Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Jim Vincent]

Better to use rotatating guides on bearings at the entrance and exit holes.
Plastic would burn through in no time at all.

>The Spectra could be protected from the edges with a cut-able,
>thin wall plastic tube inserted into the through-hole.



Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Bill Daniels]

I didn't mean to use the guillotine in place guide rollers. With the
Spectra under tension, guide rollers should prevent it from touching the
guillotine.

However, a thin plastic tube would keep dirt and moisture out of the
guillotine block so it wouldn't rust or jam. It would also prevent the
Spectra from touching the steel edges when not under tension.

Bill Daniels

"Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> Better to use rotatating guides on bearings at the entrance and exit
holes.
> Plastic would burn through in no time at all.
>
> >The Spectra could be protected from the edges with a cut-able,
> >thin wall plastic tube inserted into the through-hole.
>
>
>
> Jim Vincent
> N483SZ
>

[Craig Freeman]

(Jim Vincent) wrote in message >...
> Here is a design that one of my friends designed tfor our club winch. The
> beauty of this design is that there is no chance of getting a finger cut and it
> works perfectly.
>
> The design is based on a rotating cylinder mounted inside a metal cube. The
> metal cube has a hole drilled through it through the center line. The cylinder
> also has a hole drilled through it. In normal use, the hole in the cube lines
> up with the holein the cylinder. To activate, a handle rotates the cylinder,
> which the cylinder rotatesImagine an 8 inch square solid metal cube.
>
>
> Great Idea, I bet driving the rotating cylinder/blade with a heavy duty
starter would make a very nice install. Sharp machined surfaces should
cut "Plasma Rope" cleanly although might not have enough energy to shear
wire. This may be just what I've been looking for. I'll never use wire
again anyway. Thanks Jim.

Craig-

[John Giddy]

To slightly change the direction of this thread, previous posts have
mentioned the use of Dyneema and Spectra cable for winch launching.
Are there any statistics yet to indicate useful life of such cable,
particularly in dry dusty conditions ?
Cheers, John G.

[Bill Daniels]

"John Giddy" > wrote in message
...
> To slightly change the direction of this thread, previous posts have
> mentioned the use of Dyneema and Spectra cable for winch launching.
> Are there any statistics yet to indicate useful life of such cable,
> particularly in dry dusty conditions ?
> Cheers, John G.

The stuff seems to be pretty immune to environmental conditions. It's
reported to be especially good for use on highly abrasive surfaces like
asphalt or concrete. The biggest hazards seem to be contact with hot winch
parts or sharp metal edges.

Several clubs in Germany are reporting 2000+ launches without a break. Most
people are now thinking that the higher cost of Spectra is offset by its
longer service life, 20% higher launches and the fact that it's much nicer
to work with than steel.

Bill Daniels

[Jim Vincent]

The cylinder only needs to rotate about 20-30 degrees.

We use a lever mounted to the end of the cylinder. The lever is attached to a
handle in the winch cabin with a cable. In normal position, the cylinder holes
are in line with the block. Pull the handle and the cylinder rotates.


>> Great Idea, I bet driving the rotating cylinder/blade with a heavy duty
> starter would make a very nice install.



Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[Jim Vincent]

Geez Todd, why not hook up a laser to cut the line. I bet there a few left
over from the Star Wars initiative that Reagan proposed. I might have some old
connections at Martin Marietta that could get one for you ;-)


>Actually it struck me that it would be great for cutting
>"piano wire" type cable provided you use a long lever, but I
>would worry that Spectra might be thin and strong enough to
>jam inside between the two cylinder and block. You've only
>got one chance to cut it. Your starter motor idea, however,
>makes me think it might be great for cutting Spectra if you
>modify it like this:
>
>Remove the center cylinder from the center cylinder hole,
>leaving the block and the Spectra passing through the block
>as before. Use the starter motor to (a) spin a cylindrical
>blade that's axially removed from but axially aligned with
>the center cylinder hole and (b) the spinning blade could
>then be extended by starter motor axially into the center
>cylinder hole. As the rotating blade entered the center
>cylinder hole perpendicular to the Spectra, it would cut it
>at the two points where the Spectra enters and crosses the
>center cylinder hole. The blade would look like a hole saw
>with a smooth sharp edge. Starter motors are already
>designed with the extending action needed.



Jim Vincent
N483SZ