Is it Possible to Self launch (no wingman) with CG hook??

[Jerz Rossignol]

Hi Guys,

I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
start? What's the technique!!
I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.

Regards,

Jerz

[Tony Verhulst]

Jerz Rossignol wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider.

I've done it in my LS6 when I was aerotowed from a spasely populated
airport following a landout. It was really a no brainer.

I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!

With a CG hook, the glider has to point in the desired direction of
travel, IMHO. With a nose hook, you can angle the nose into the cross
wind (if any) and lower the upwind wing. The theory being that when the
tow plane starts, the nose hook will swing the nose straight,
accelerating the upwind (low wing) allowing it to lift level almost
immediately.

> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.

I would prefer a nose hook in this situation.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Jerz Rossignol" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

Yes, from remote fields. It's no problem, but the dust cloud from the tow
plane is sometimes pretty wild, especially if it's the first time you've
encountered it.

Frank Whiteley

[Bill Daniels]

A CG hook is a disadvantage only if you never plan to winch launch.

I was shown at rig made with PVC plumbing pipe for just such a situation.
it worked like a saw horse with a carpeted top and could be broken down for
storage in the glider trailer. Starting with the wings close to level is a
big help.

I don't think I would try a CG hook, wing-on-the-ground start with my Nimbus

Bill Daniels


"Jerz Rossignol" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

[Maule Driver]

I too have done it in an LS6 - We just lined it up and went - powerful
towplane helps.

But we used to practice it in a 2-22. There was a very specific technique
and it was not self-evident. As I recall, the upwind wing was down but the
nose pointed downwind (!). This allowed for weathervaning which would
effect the a/c before the controls became effective. It worked pretty well.
Of course, the 2-22 sits on it's nose rather than it's tail.

So why would you point an unguided rocket downwind in order to have it reach
apogee directly over the launcher?

"Jerz Rossignol" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

[tango4]

Aerotow no problem. Don't try it with a winch though!

Ian

"Jerz Rossignol" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

[Steve Hill]

I have done this many times...I live on a private airport and many mid-week
soaring days found me and my good buddy ( ie towpilot) having to figure out
how to safely accomplish this...On grass it's a no brainer. I take about a
36" piece of
1" x 1" wood, poke it into the grass directly under the wing tip perhaps 6
inches inboard, a piece of duct tape over the sawn end keep gelcoat from
being damaged. basically you get everything ready hook up...set the wing on
the stick close the canopy and go...I have only done it using a radio for
verbal communication with the towpilot. I operated my DG this way numerous
times when the engine was out, and I have operated two other sailplanes the
same way. Make sure the stick is of a length to hold the wings approximately
level slightly low to the windward side is best and then aggressively start
the two...never yet dropped a wing. I always start with spoiler open to
maximize roll control early...the DG only has a CG hook.


Steve.

[goneill]

A number of our guys come out midweek and launch on the winch
with just the winchdriver and the pilot .
They use a carpet wrapped sawhorse to hold the wing up.
If they can not find the sawhorse they have used an empty cardboard box
to hold the wing up.Our winch uses polyprop rope and when the glider
starts to move it is at flying speed very quickly.
"Jerz Rossignol" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

[Stewart Kissel]

I get to do this about a dozen times a summer, from
a public 8,000' agl airport that gets warm...behind
a cub. Not that I particularly like doing it, but
otherwise no flying. Typically I also have to deal
with a crosswind. My technique as follows, not saying
this is the only way but has worked for me.


1.) The ship is going to weathervane...so I line up
downwind of center line.

2.) I also point the nose slightly downwind.

3.) The downwind wing goes on the ground, this helps
slow down the weathervane and also allows the wing
to be picked up later.

As the tow commences...the weathervane starts, and
quite quickly...heading towards the center line on
an angle from the leeward side. This typically allows
the downwind wing to be ruddered up. As I approach
the centerline I attempt to rudder straight and get
the windward wing down.

Some operations such as Warner Springs launch from
a diagnol..and it sort of the same idea.

I also make a point of being friendly to the airport
bums...so as to have an alternative to this technique
:)

[Stewart Kissel]

acckkk-

I don't think any technique works from 8k' agl....please
substitute msl. The point being I drag along for a
while waiting for the cub to get a head of steam up.

[Ventus B]

I've launched many a time from a grass strip without a wingman. Of
course the glider will have a tendancy to turn toward the down wing,
but you simply correct for that with rudder as the low wing starts to
come up. However there are variables that may make things different
for you. For example a good strong tug can make a huge difference in
your ability to safely launch with a wing down. If you can't
accelerate quickly then you are likely to be pointed far off course
before your wing starts to come up. We fly with a 180 HP SuperCub at
sea level. Also, I fly from a grass strip so dragging a tip on the
ground is no big deal. Lastly some wing tips have skids that might
have more of a tendancy than others to "grab" the ground beneath them.
Look at one of the LS gliders as compared to a Schleicher to see what
I am talking about.
Bottom line is that it can be safely done under the right
circumstances, and in fact I personally encourage you to practice it.
This could make the difference between being able to fly, or not, if
you are short handed at the gliderport some day.
Respectfully,


(Jerz Rossignol) wrote in message >...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

[Eric Greenwell]

Jerz Rossignol wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.

My experience is it's more reliable with a nose hook. I discovered this
after I had a nose hook retrofitted to my ASW 20 C while it was in the
shop to have a damaged wing tip fixed (the damage was caused by a
botched attempt to launch without a wing runner).

I suggest you consider having a nose hook fitted. In any case, be much
more alert than usual, and ready to release at the hint of trouble.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Z Goudie]

At 16:24 05 November 2004, Jerz Rossignol wrote:

>I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self
>launch with no
>wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on
>my wingtips as
>well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further
>forward at
>start? What's the technique!!
>I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.

Did it a long time ago next to Fasnakyle Hydro Power
Station near Inverness.
I drove the winch (a scrap car jacked up with a drum
full of piano wire bolted to one rear hub and the differential
jammed).
The pilot in an Olympia 460 with one wing balanced
on a pile of tyres at the other end.
He eventually went to 13,000' in the wave after I had
exited the winch with giant steps as the released wire
narrowly missed the 132Kv pylons running down one side
of the field!

[Stefan]

Jerz Rossignol wrote:

> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider.

I do it regularly. No problem, neither winch nor aerotow, neither paved
nor grass runway, if the grass is not too long.

Start with aileron and rudder fully deflected, hold them fully deflected
until the wing rises and then correct as needed. Be prepared to release
immediately if something goes wrong.

Stefan

[Mark Grubb]

Disadvantages of CG hooks are overblown.

Have launched AS-W20 (many times), Libelle, Std. Cirrus, DG, LS-4 and
likely others with CG hook and tip skids with no wingrunner. Have
towed many as well.

A method that has worked for me in the past.

Assess situation. Deside at what point you will release if it is not
working out, what the obstacles are on the upwind side of the runway,
how "up" you are mentally for this, and risk / benefit analysis.
Decide before pushing out / rigging if it is worth the risk today.

1) Put a/c on downwind side of runway centerline to allow for max
possible
amount of lateral drift toward Xwind and dragging wingtip. Not on
the
absolute downwind edge, but downwind of centerline. How much is a
judgement call.

2) Put upwind wing on ground. It will come up quickest in this
attitude.

3) Point aircraft "slightly" downwind. "Slightly" is a function of
intensity
of Xwind, wind velocity in general, a/c handling characteristics,
and
ground surface conditions. Obviously, more downwind heading in
larger
X-wind components and softer ground surface. Less for hard
surface, less
X-wind, and greater headwind.

4) Hold full downwind ("up-wing") rudder BEFORE takeoff roll begins.
The goal
is to minimize any upwind / down-yaw yawing inertia you have to
overcome.
Getting ahead of the system by having full rudder in before the
roll begins
is a very powerful tool. It is much easier to remove rudder than
it is to
stop a yaw that has already begun.

5) Review where release handle is and at what point you will pull off
if wing
is not up, you begin to laterally leave the useful runway surface,
or you
do not have sufficient control authority to continue. I have
punched
off multiple times in ridge conditions back east (USA) in rough,
gusty 20+
kt Xwind before finally getting airborne. A good ridge day made
it
worth it and an excellent tow pilot (thanks Dad!), and some sage
advice
helped made it work.

5) Have tow plane take up slack, hold brakes, and apply T/O power.
Tuggie
should watch propwash behind him and not begin roll until propwash
has
reached glider - and hopefully for a second or 3 after that.

Crucial issue is to decide quickly if launch is not working out and
pull off before it builds up enough energy to bust airplane / hurt
you. One can always push back and try again.

Kiwi's in Omarama, NZ routinely retrieve fiberglass gliders
wingrunner-less from remote strip / fields by using sticks and rocks
to prop up wing. Have done it this way from a narrow strip and it
works fine as well.

Of course, all of this is "Dangerous", and R.A.S. Theorists will
likely tell you about all the crashes these procedures cause.

Pay your Money and Take Your Chances (Or Not).

Best, Mark

[Buck Wild]

(Jerz Rossignol) wrote in message >...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

I have done plenty of retrives where we propped one wing up on a stick
on the side of the runway, or rest one tip on a tumbleweed, then leave
about 3 feet of slack in the towline.
Hit it!

-Dan

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >, goneill > wrote:
>If they can not find the sawhorse they have used an empty cardboard box
>to hold the wing up.

I like the idea of the (softer) cardboard box better than
the sawhorse. A sawhorse seems like overenginee...oops, over-building ;)
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Eric Greenwell]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> In article >, goneill > wrote:
>
>>If they can not find the sawhorse they have used an empty cardboard box
>>to hold the wing up.
>
>
> I like the idea of the (softer) cardboard box better than
> the sawhorse. A sawhorse seems like overenginee...oops, over-building ;)

Who removes the sawhorse or cardboard box from the runway after the takeoff?


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Shawn]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
>> In article >, goneill >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If they can not find the sawhorse they have used an empty cardboard box
>>> to hold the wing up.
>>
>>
>>
>> I like the idea of the (softer) cardboard box better than
>> the sawhorse. A sawhorse seems like overenginee...oops, over-building ;)
>
>
> Who removes the sawhorse or cardboard box from the runway after the
> takeoff?
>
>
Prevailing wind will plaster the box against the airport fence, to be
recycled after the flight.
The next 1-26 to land will take care of the saw horse.
;-)

Shawn

[Jack]

Shawn wrote:

> Prevailing wind will plaster the box against the airport fence, to be
> recycled after the flight.
> The next 1-26 to land will take care of the saw horse.

Be careful what you say about the 1-26: your Mosquito could catch a Virus.


Jack

[Shawn]

Jack wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
>
>> Prevailing wind will plaster the box against the airport fence, to be
>> recycled after the flight.
>> The next 1-26 to land will take care of the saw horse.
>
>
> Be careful what you say about the 1-26: your Mosquito could catch a Virus.
>
>
> Jack

Catch one? I could mop the floor with one, once the engine is off.
:-)
http://www.pipistrel.si/virus.htm
Actually, I only picked on the 1-26 because its wing is so close to the
ground.

Shawn

[Janusz Kesik]

Uzytkownik "Shawn" > napisal w wiadomosci
...

> Catch one? I could mop the floor with one, once the engine is off.
> :-)
> http://www.pipistrel.si/virus.htm
> Actually, I only picked on the 1-26 because its wing is so close to the
> ground.

Well, by the way of this thread, I have took a look at few websites
regarding ultralights. Look what a nice plane I have found, it tows gliders
too (the 550 Trener model)...

http://www.3xtrim.pl/

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik
Poland

-------------------------------------
See Wroclaw (Breslau) in photography,
The XIX Century, the Festung Breslau, and photos taken today.
http://www.wroclaw.dolny.slask.pl

[Gary Kemp]

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message news:<sbPid.368503$D%.307763@attbi_s51>...
> A CG hook is a disadvantage only if you never plan to winch launch.
>
> I was shown at rig made with PVC plumbing pipe for just such a situation.
> it worked like a saw horse with a carpeted top and could be broken down for
> storage in the glider trailer. Starting with the wings close to level is a
> big help.
>
> I don't think I would try a CG hook, wing-on-the-ground start with my Nimbus
>
> Bill Daniels
>
Have done it in my Nimbus 3 and many times in my Pegasus, both CG hooks.

[Ian Johnston]

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:54:48 UTC, (Jerz Rossignol)
wrote:

: I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
: wing man on a cg hook only glider.

Yes. I had an aerotow retrieve in a Slingsby Swallow from a disused
airfield. Only myself and the tug pilot there.

Ian

--

[John Cochrane]

I've used the "stick" method several times on retrieves -- find two
sticks, put them under the wings to hold them level. It works best
with 10 mph or so headwind. If you can talk the tow pilot into running
up for 30 sec or so so you get some prop blast before you start and
less prop blast halfway through the roll that helps too.

One thing nobody has mentioned is that a good tailwheel is much more
important to the success of this sort of thing than nose vs. cg hook.
Gliders with a skid are much more vulnerable to groundloops, and
gliders with cg hooks plus skid are really bad. Keep the tailwheel
planted on the ground with full back stick until you're really sure
which way the glider is going. If you have an old glued-on skid, spend
the $100 to get a tailwheel instead.


John Cochrane (BB)

(Jerz Rossignol) wrote in message >...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

[Mark Newton]

In article >,
"tango4" > wrote:

> Aerotow no problem. Don't try it with a winch though!


Why not? Winch is easier than aerotow: The rapid acceleration
means you have instant roll-axis control.

(done it several times, easy as pie)

- mark

[Bill Daniels]

"Mark Newton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "tango4" > wrote:
>
> > Aerotow no problem. Don't try it with a winch though!
>
>
> Why not? Winch is easier than aerotow: The rapid acceleration
> means you have instant roll-axis control.
>
> (done it several times, easy as pie)
>
> - mark

Instant roll control and no prop wash to deal with.

There was a 'lone ranger' who built a remote controlled winch 20 or 30 years
ago. He could launch himself with no help at all. I'd like to know more
about that winch.

Bill Daniels

[goneill]

You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
end over end cartwheel, fatalities have happened with that scenario.
The winch rapid acceleration is a two edged sword ,as long as
you get the wings both moving forward its easier than a aerotow
wingdown takeoff.
gary
"Mark Newton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "tango4" > wrote:
>
>> Aerotow no problem. Don't try it with a winch though!
>
>
> Why not? Winch is easier than aerotow: The rapid acceleration
> means you have instant roll-axis control.
>
> (done it several times, easy as pie)
>
> - mark

[CV]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> Instant roll control and no prop wash to deal with.

Actually, the prop wash will help, by providing some airflow
over the wings and control surfaces, giving you a certain
degree of control, even before the speed builds up.

CV

[F.L. Whiteley]

"CV" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > Instant roll control and no prop wash to deal with.
>
> Actually, the prop wash will help, by providing some airflow
> over the wings and control surfaces, giving you a certain
> degree of control, even before the speed builds up.
>
> CV
>
Actually, I'd contend this causes most wing drops since it's usually not
evenly distributed over both wings.

[Mark Newton]

In article >,
"goneill" > wrote:

> You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
> does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
> starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
> end over end cartwheel,

You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
they're level.

- mark

[Mark Newton]

In article >,
CV > wrote:

> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > Instant roll control and no prop wash to deal with.
>
> Actually, the prop wash will help, by providing some airflow
> over the wings and control surfaces, giving you a certain
> degree of control, even before the speed builds up.


We're talking about a winch, CV. You don't have to wait until the speed
builds up :-)

- mark

[Stefan]

Mark Newton wrote:

> You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
> they're level.

I always start with a "down wing" when being alone. No problem whatsoever.

Stefan

[goneill]

The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
gary
"Mark Newton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "goneill" > wrote:
>
>> You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
>> does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
>> starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
>> end over end cartwheel,
>
> You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
> they're level.
>
> - mark

[Bill Daniels]

"goneill" > wrote in message
...
> The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
> I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
> gary

Indeed!

If a wing tip catches on something like tall grass, the combination of high
acceleration and CG hook can be disastrous. This sometimes results in a
flick roll and inverted crash. This is why the takeoff area of winch
operations needs to be smooth and the pilots 'spring loaded' to release if
the takeoff roll swerves.

If the takeoff surface was smooth asphalt and the glider had tip wheels or
low-friction skids then starting with a wingtip propped up on a stand or box
might not be so dangerous. It pays to be careful though.

Let me add just how sweet it is to accelerate and lift off without the
turbulence, noise and dust of a tow plane. Compared to air tow, a winch
launch area is downright civilized.

Bill Daniels

[F.L. Whiteley]

Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner and
tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A paved
surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level assist
would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider off
the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level doesn't
seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of eyes
to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.

Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
perspective).
'Never winch launch unassisted'
'Never winch launch downwind'

Frank

"goneill" > wrote in message
...
> The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
> I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
> gary
> "Mark Newton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "goneill" > wrote:
> >
> >> You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
> >> does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
> >> starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
> >> end over end cartwheel,
> >
> > You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
> > they're level.
> >
> > - mark
>
>

[Pete Reinhart]

We had it happen here a few years ago.
A very experienced pilot and single ground crew driving our tow car on a
week day with no one else around.
The glider was totaled and the pilot suffered serious injuries.
Maybe ok in a 2-33.
I got away with it once in an SHK but I don't think I would try it again.
Cheers!


"F.L. Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
> Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner and
> tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A paved
> surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level assist
> would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider
off
> the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level
doesn't
> seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of
eyes
> to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.
>
> Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
> perspective).
> 'Never winch launch unassisted'
> 'Never winch launch downwind'
>
> Frank
>
> "goneill" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
> > I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
> > gary
> > "Mark Newton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >,
> > > "goneill" > wrote:
> > >
> > >> You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
> > >> does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
> > >> starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
> > >> end over end cartwheel,
> > >
> > > You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
> > > they're level.
> > >
> > > - mark
> >
> >
>
>

[Mike Lindsay]

In article <grOkd.76520$HA.7455@attbi_s01>, Bill Daniels
> writes
>
>Let me add just how sweet it is to accelerate and lift off without the
>turbulence, noise and dust of a tow plane. Compared to air tow, a winch
>launch area is downright civilized.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
Although not as civilised as a bungee launch...
--
Mike Lindsay

[Nolaminar]

You want quiet launch?
Shoulder launch from the Mynd is pretty quiet, I am told.
GA

[Robert Ehrlich]

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote:
>
> Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner and
> tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A paved
> surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level assist
> would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider off
> the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level doesn't
> seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of eyes
> to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.
>
> Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
> perspective).
> 'Never winch launch unassisted'
> 'Never winch launch downwind'
>
> Frank
>

By us there is no wing runner for winch launch, only a wing holder. The
acceleration is so that nobody would be able to follow the glider,
nor any vehicle whose propulsion relies on friction on the ground, since
the friction coefficient will never be sufficient to provide such an acceleration.
So the wing holder could easily be replaced by any object (wing stand, tyres heap,
etc.) having the same function, although we never do it because we want to
keep the watching capability of the wing holder.

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
...
> "F.L. Whiteley" wrote:
> >
> > Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner
and
> > tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A
paved
> > surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level
assist
> > would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider
off
> > the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level
doesn't
> > seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of
eyes
> > to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.
> >
> > Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
> > perspective).
> > 'Never winch launch unassisted'
> > 'Never winch launch downwind'
> >
> > Frank
> >
>
> By us there is no wing runner for winch launch, only a wing holder. The
> acceleration is so that nobody would be able to follow the glider,
> nor any vehicle whose propulsion relies on friction on the ground, since
> the friction coefficient will never be sufficient to provide such an
acceleration.
> So the wing holder could easily be replaced by any object (wing stand,
tyres heap,
> etc.) having the same function, although we never do it because we want to
> keep the watching capability of the wing holder.

We don't actually commence the launch until the glider exhibits some forward
movement on the up slack. This would likely pull the wing off of such an
arrangement. We do this primarily because our winch run may cross some very
uneven surfaces depending on wind direction. This may mean the wire rope
(single run) is not quite straight initially and will displace laterally
during initial acceleration. That's one interesting aspect to winching,
that the run does not necessarily require fully improved surfaces. A winch
could quite easily be located 1000-2000ft outside of the airfield boundary
provided there aren't any obstacles.

You're right though, there's seldom any running involved.

Frank Whiteley

[Bill Daniels]

"F.L. Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "F.L. Whiteley" wrote:
> > >
> > > Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner
> and
> > > tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A
> paved
> > > surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level
> assist
> > > would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the
glider
> off
> > > the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level
> doesn't
> > > seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of
> eyes
> > > to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.
> > >
> > > Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
> > > perspective).
> > > 'Never winch launch unassisted'
> > > 'Never winch launch downwind'
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> >
> > By us there is no wing runner for winch launch, only a wing holder. The
> > acceleration is so that nobody would be able to follow the glider,
> > nor any vehicle whose propulsion relies on friction on the ground, since
> > the friction coefficient will never be sufficient to provide such an
> acceleration.
> > So the wing holder could easily be replaced by any object (wing stand,
> tyres heap,
> > etc.) having the same function, although we never do it because we want
to
> > keep the watching capability of the wing holder.
>
> We don't actually commence the launch until the glider exhibits some
forward
> movement on the up slack. This would likely pull the wing off of such an
> arrangement. We do this primarily because our winch run may cross some
very
> uneven surfaces depending on wind direction. This may mean the wire rope
> (single run) is not quite straight initially and will displace laterally
> during initial acceleration. That's one interesting aspect to winching,
> that the run does not necessarily require fully improved surfaces. A
winch
> could quite easily be located 1000-2000ft outside of the airfield boundary
> provided there aren't any obstacles.
>
> You're right though, there's seldom any running involved.
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
>

That's why a wing support POINT is a bad idea. A better idea is a support
rail that allows the glider to move forward a meter or more with the wing
tip sliding on a carpet covered rail.

A simple sawhorse made of slip together PVC pipe fittings would break down
into a small bundle. As for who removes this from the runway after takeoff,
it would have to be the winch driver after some delay.

Bill Daniels

[Tom Seim]

(Jerz Rossignol) wrote in message >...
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm curious if any of you guys have ever tried to self launch with no
> wing man on a cg hook only glider. I have skids on my wingtips as
> well. Would you put the wing that's on the ground further forward at
> start? What's the technique!!
> I think this is why having a cg hook is a disadvantage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerz

I have done this with an ASW19. I set up with the down wing far
forward (the nose was pointed 20-30 degrees off centerline-this will
appear to be a ridiculous amount while waiting in the cockpit). The
drag of the wing tip skid pulls the glider towards the center line
until you have enough speed to pick up the wing. You should setup
offset of the runway centerline to maximize use of the runway width.
Crosswind weather-vaning will NOT be a factor until AFTER you have
lifted the wing. At this point you will have rudder and aileron
authority and correct for this effect. I would place the down wing
INTO the wind to ease the effort required to lift it.

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
"F.L. Whiteley" > wrote:

> That's one interesting aspect to winching,
> that the run does not necessarily require fully improved surfaces. A winch
> could quite easily be located 1000-2000ft outside of the airfield boundary
> provided there aren't any obstacles.

In fact that's what the field I learned to winch on was like. The cable
was about 5000 ft, but the runway itself was probably not much more than
1000 ft. The rest of the cable run was over rather undulating ground,
crossed by several creeks, with the track for the cable retrieve car
taking a nowhere near straight route.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------