Motorglider Tug

[Ray Lovinggood]

Who is using a motorglider as a tug? Please send details!

Your location. Country. Field surface, length, elevation,
temperatures.

What type of tug?

What gliders towed?

Good, bad, and ugly of using the motorglider.

Who insures? Costello, here in America, will not insure
a motorglider for towing.

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[BTIZ]

Most motor gliders of the "Katana Extreme" variety do not have enough
"oomph" (HPower) to get a regular glider into the air. You may find that
some have done duty to tow ultralights aloft. Check out the USHGA web pages.

Most motorgliders (older types) do not have enough HP to get them selves
into the air on hot high days here in the mid-west. Although I do understand
that the DG808B does very well, but the Grob109 is very anemic. I've read
reports that the older DG400 was "doable" at a very poor climb rate.

BT

"Ray Lovinggood" > wrote in message
...
> Who is using a motorglider as a tug? Please send details!
>
> Your location. Country. Field surface, length, elevation,
> temperatures.
>
> What type of tug?
>
> What gliders towed?
>
> Good, bad, and ugly of using the motorglider.
>
> Who insures? Costello, here in America, will not insure
> a motorglider for towing.
>
> Thanks,
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
>
>

[Gerhard Wesp]

BTIZ > wrote:
> Most motor gliders of the "Katana Extreme" variety do not have enough
> "oomph" (HPower) to get a regular glider into the air. You may find that

Wrong.

We're using the Katana Extreme itself (100 oomph, which isn't even the
strongest one you can get) for towing in Niederoeblarn (concrete, 700m
runway, 650m elevation, up to 35 degrees Celsius). Up to moderately
loaded glass single seaters. Also possible for light dual seaters.

> some have done duty to tow ultralights aloft. Check out the USHGA web pages.

Ultralights themselves are used to tow gliders hereabouts. There was a
towing competition in Zell am See recently, and the best ultralight was
comparable to a Husky (don't remember how many oopmh).

Cheers
-Gerhard
--
Gerhard Wesp o o Tel.: +41 (0) 43 5347636
Bachtobelstrasse 56 | http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~gwesp/
CH-8045 Zuerich \_/ See homepage for email address!

[Sebastian Fischer]

My Ex-Club has bought a Scheibe SF-25 with a Rotax 100HP. They do tow with
this and it seems to work. The field is only 830m long.

I don't know if they do it on a regular basis, because normally they use a
whinch.
Here is a fotograph of the SF-25 towing a ASK-21 if I am right:

http://www.segelflug.de/vereine/grambekerheide/grafik/schlepp.jpg

Sebastian
--
Sebastian Fischer

[Stephen Haley]

I know that the faulkes foundation use a falke to tow their DG505s arround
see http://www.fffoundation.co.uk/mgliders.html
for info
rgds
Stephen

"Ray Lovinggood" > wrote in message
...
> Who is using a motorglider as a tug? Please send details!
>
> Your location. Country. Field surface, length, elevation,
> temperatures.
>
> What type of tug?
>
> What gliders towed?
>
> Good, bad, and ugly of using the motorglider.
>
> Who insures? Costello, here in America, will not insure
> a motorglider for towing.
>
> Thanks,
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
>
>

[Ian Strachan]

In article >, Stephen Haley
> writes

>I know that the faulkes foundation use a falke to tow their DG505s arround
>see http://www.fffoundation.co.uk/mgliders.html

It must be pointed out that this is the 105 hp "Rotax Falke", not the
original Scheibe Falke with the 45hp Stamo engine!

We also have a Rotax Falke at Lasham with a tow hook and occasionally
use it for towing light gliders like K-6 and glass 15m ships. Lasham is
a 2000 yard field in the E/W direction. However, we have a fleet of 5
dedicated tug aircraft as well. So the Rotax Falke does not get used
that much for towing, but is for exercises in field landing, navigation
and soaring generally.

Its handling in a thermal is better than earlier Falke designs and it
goes up reasonably well engine-off, even in our weak English thermals.
Where it loses out to a straight glider is in L/D. A very useful
instructional aircraft, though, and at a small gliding club with a
reasonable length of field, can be used as a standby towplane, perhaps
when the main towplane is out for servicing or when a large queue
develops for tows. I would not use it as the sole towplane but buy a
second-hand towplane to take the main air tow load at the field.

--
Ian Strachan
Lasham Gliding Centre, UK

[Stefan]

BTIZ wrote:

> Most motor gliders of the "Katana Extreme" variety do not have enough
> "oomph" (HPower) to get a regular glider into the air.

I don't know where you read this. Here in Europe, Super Dimonas (aka
Katana Extremes) are very commonly used as tug planes. Mostly the 115hp
version. Climb is not breathtaking, but it surely works even with two
seaters.

Stefan

[Keith W]

Culdrose gliding club (Cornwall, England) uses a Dimona (S?) as a tug. Very
pleased with it. If you have any contatcs there, might be worth an email.

Keith

"Ray Lovinggood" > wrote in message
...
> Who is using a motorglider as a tug? Please send details!
>
> Your location. Country. Field surface, length, elevation,
> temperatures.
>
> What type of tug?
>
> What gliders towed?
>
> Good, bad, and ugly of using the motorglider.
>
> Who insures? Costello, here in America, will not insure
> a motorglider for towing.
>
> Thanks,
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
>
>

[BTIZ]

650M in elevation is approximately 1800-2000ft?
take that up to 3000ft or more on a 45C day.. our 235HP tow with a heavy 2
seat glider can manage about 400fpm rate of climb, now add some down draft
(sink) or rotor and I've actually had negative climb rates.. I would not
want to be doing that in a 100hp tug

BT

"Gerhard Wesp" > wrote in message
...
> BTIZ > wrote:
>> Most motor gliders of the "Katana Extreme" variety do not have enough
>> "oomph" (HPower) to get a regular glider into the air. You may find that
>
> Wrong.
>
> We're using the Katana Extreme itself (100 oomph, which isn't even the
> strongest one you can get) for towing in Niederoeblarn (concrete, 700m
> runway, 650m elevation, up to 35 degrees Celsius). Up to moderately
> loaded glass single seaters. Also possible for light dual seaters.
>
>> some have done duty to tow ultralights aloft. Check out the USHGA web
>> pages.
>
> Ultralights themselves are used to tow gliders hereabouts. There was a
> towing competition in Zell am See recently, and the best ultralight was
> comparable to a Husky (don't remember how many oopmh).
>
> Cheers
> -Gerhard
> --
> Gerhard Wesp o o Tel.: +41 (0) 43 5347636
> Bachtobelstrasse 56 | http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~gwesp/
> CH-8045 Zuerich \_/ See homepage for email address!

[Bruce Greeff]

BTIZ wrote:
> Most motor gliders of the "Katana Extreme" variety do not have enough
> "oomph" (HPower) to get a regular glider into the air. You may find that
> some have done duty to tow ultralights aloft. Check out the USHGA web pages.
>
> Most motorgliders (older types) do not have enough HP to get them selves
> into the air on hot high days here in the mid-west. Although I do understand
> that the DG808B does very well, but the Grob109 is very anemic. I've read
> reports that the older DG400 was "doable" at a very poor climb rate.
>
> BT
>
> "Ray Lovinggood" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Who is using a motorglider as a tug? Please send details!
>>
>>Your location. Country. Field surface, length, elevation,
>>temperatures.
>>
>>What type of tug?
>>
>>What gliders towed?
>>
>>Good, bad, and ugly of using the motorglider.
>>
>>Who insures? Costello, here in America, will not insure
>>a motorglider for towing.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ray Lovinggood
>>Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Urban Air Samba and Lambada do quite well, apparently the Pipistrel Sinus is
also quite good.

One reason being that despite lower horesepower, they are flying in their noraml
operating speed range when towing. As opposed to many of the other types that
are right at the lower end of their speed range and have high induced drag at
towing speeds... They are 60 year newer designs than the Cubs for example, and
hence benefit from better efficiency too.

[Gerhard Wesp]

BTIZ > wrote:
> want to be doing that in a 100hp tug

Theoretically, with 100hp you can obtain 10m/s climb rate with a 750kg
glider (about 5 kts or 2000ft/min). It's all a question of
efficiency (both glider and tug)... :)

Cheers
-Gerhard
--
Gerhard Wesp o o Tel.: +41 (0) 43 5347636
Bachtobelstrasse 56 | http://www.cosy.sbg.ac.at/~gwesp/
CH-8045 Zuerich \_/ See homepage for email address!

[Stefan]

BTIZ wrote:

> 650M in elevation is approximately 1800-2000ft?
> take that up to 3000ft or more on a 45C day..

The 115hp version of the Dimona is turbo charged, so density altitude
isn't an issue.

> now add some down draft
> (sink) or rotor

This is a bad tug pilot who tugs through sink. And rotor... well, on the
downdraft side, you'll always go down with something less than a rocket,
I guess. On the updraft side, though...

Stefan

[Robert Ehrlich]

----------
Dans l'article <GKDkd.92846$bk1.22713@fed1read05>, "BTIZ"
> a écrit :


> Most motor gliders of the "Katana Extreme" variety do not have enough
> "oomph" (HPower) to get a regular glider into the air. You may find that
> some have done duty to tow ultralights aloft. Check out the USHGA web pages.
>
> Most motorgliders (older types) do not have enough HP to get them selves
> into the air on hot high days here in the mid-west. Although I do understand
> that the DG808B does very well, but the Grob109 is very anemic. I've read
> reports that the older DG400 was "doable" at a very poor climb rate.
>
> BT
>
> "Ray Lovinggood" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Who is using a motorglider as a tug? Please send details!
>>
>> Your location. Country. Field surface, length, elevation,
>> temperatures.
>>
>> What type of tug?
>>
>> What gliders towed?
>>
>> Good, bad, and ugly of using the motorglider.
>>
>> Who insures? Costello, here in America, will not insure
>> a motorglider for towing.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ray Lovinggood
>> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>>
>>
>>
>
>
My club uses since several years a Super Dimona with a 115 hp turbo charged
engine. We tow all gliders with it, including an ASH25 turbo (engine
unmounted) and a Nimbus 3 which is always ballasted, although sometimes only
lightly. Only when the waiting line becomes long, we also use our second
tug, a Rallye with 180 HP. Towing times are similar with both tugs, not cost
of course, hence the exceptionnal use of the Rallye, since the pilot anyway
pays the same for both.

Good things: nearly same performance as the Rallye for a lower cost. May be
used as a motorglider for itself when not towing, although this is very
rare. May be flown with just a glider licence, although not for towing.
No corrosion problems unlike the Rallye. Lower noise than most conventional
tow planes, this helped to buy it as there are public subventions for the
reductions of noise. Airbrakes, partial water cooling and closable air
cooling intakes help fast descent for minimizing tow time.

Bad things: the reliability of the engine is lower than expected. Maybe our
plane is an exception, but we had a lot of minor and major engine failures,
including a crack in the main engine body, which implied replacement of the
engine. Full power with maximum turbo pressure is limited to 5 minutes, this
doesn't hurt as most tows are shorter than that.

Runway 1000m, altitude 370 ft, temperature 20-35°C, reached 40°C in August
2003. Prevailing winds are crosswinds.

[Ray Lovinggood]

Robert,

If your club had to buy a towplane all over again,
would you still buy the motorglider, or would you get
another Rallye or other 'normal' airplane?

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood

>Bad things: the reliability of the engine is lower
>than expected. Maybe our
>plane is an exception, but we had a lot of minor and
>major engine failures,
>including a crack in the main engine body, which implied
>replacement of the
>engine. Full power with maximum turbo pressure is limited
>to 5 minutes, this
>doesn't hurt as most tows are shorter than that.
>
>Runway 1000m, altitude 370 ft, temperature 20-35°C,
>reached 40°C in August
>2003. Prevailing winds are crosswinds.
>

[Ray Lovinggood]

Robert,

If your club had to buy a towplane all over again,
would you still buy the motorglider, or would you get
another Rallye or other 'normal' airplane?

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood

>Bad things: the reliability of the engine is lower
>than expected. Maybe our
>plane is an exception, but we had a lot of minor and
>major engine failures,
>including a crack in the main engine body, which implied
>replacement of the
>engine. Full power with maximum turbo pressure is limited
>to 5 minutes, this
>doesn't hurt as most tows are shorter than that.
>
>Runway 1000m, altitude 370 ft, temperature 20-35°C,
>reached 40°C in August
>2003. Prevailing winds are crosswinds.
>

[BTIZ]

we don't tow through sink or rotor intentionally.. and for the local area we
know where to predict the rotor... but as for sink.. what goes up must come
down eventually.. and there is sink, to get back into the lift... can't
always fly on tow in thermal lift.. when the cores are narrow and strong..

BT

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> BTIZ wrote:
>
>> 650M in elevation is approximately 1800-2000ft?
>> take that up to 3000ft or more on a 45C day..
>
> The 115hp version of the Dimona is turbo charged, so density altitude
> isn't an issue.
>
>> now add some down draft (sink) or rotor
>
> This is a bad tug pilot who tugs through sink. And rotor... well, on the
> downdraft side, you'll always go down with something less than a rocket, I
> guess. On the updraft side, though...
>
> Stefan
>

[Stefan]

BTIZ wrote:

> we don't tow through sink or rotor intentionally.. and for the local area we
> know where to predict the rotor... but as for sink.. what goes up must come
> down eventually.. and there is sink, to get back into the lift... can't
> always fly on tow in thermal lift.. when the cores are narrow and strong..

.... then you pull the release knob.

Stefan

[Ray Lovinggood]

Robert,

If your club had to buy a towplane all over again,
would you still buy the motorglider, or would you get
another Rallye or other 'normal' airplane?

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood

>Bad things: the reliability of the engine is lower
>than expected. Maybe our
>plane is an exception, but we had a lot of minor and
>major engine failures,
>including a crack in the main engine body, which implied
>replacement of the
>engine. Full power with maximum turbo pressure is limited
>to 5 minutes, this
>doesn't hurt as most tows are shorter than that.
>
>Runway 1000m, altitude 370 ft, temperature 20-35°C,
>reached 40°C in August
>2003. Prevailing winds are crosswinds.
>

[BTIZ]

> ... then you pull the release knob.
>
> Stefan

tell that to a student learning to fly on tow..

[Robert Ehrlich]

----------
Dans l'article >, Ray Lovinggood
> a écrit :


> Robert,
>
> If your club had to buy a towplane all over again,
> would you still buy the motorglider, or would you get
> another Rallye or other 'normal' airplane?
>

I think it would be another motorglider. The case in some way already
happened, as during some time when the Rallye was grounded for corrosion and
the Dimona was unreliable/unavailable, the club hired another Dimona. This
is based on the assumption that most of the problems we had with the engine
are exceptionnal and would not happen with another one. One factor to be
considered is also what kind of fuel is used. The Dimona may use Avgas 100LL
as well as unleaded 95 automotive gas. The second one is recommended for
better reliablity, as the lead in the 100 LL alway causes more or less
contamination of the oil which is the same as the oil used for actuating the
variable pitch system, and we had problems probably due to that. But as we
need 100 LL for the Rallye and have only one tank, we are stuck to that as
long as the Rallye remains. The cost for splitting the tank was evaluated
and considered prohibitive regarding the expected life of the Rallye. If
some day it is replaced by another Dimona, we would be able to switch to
unleaded 95. Anyway another Rallye is probably out of question since
manufacturing of them stopped a long time ago, only old ones are available
and buying one of them is certainly buying a lot of problems. E.g. when the
Rallye was grounded for corrosion, several monthes were spent just waiting
for the answer of the manufacturer for the proper repair procedure without
which no work could be legally started.

[Ian McPhee]

The hk36 Dimona with either 100hp or 115hp is a large outlay and the
prop can easily be damages with the longish groundrun if there is any
stone at all on strip. At the moment I am trying to deceide engine
for a late model falke - Sauer 2700 105HP, Rotax 100HP or Jabiru
120HP. I have all the engineering done for the Jabiru by one of
Australia's most experienced Reg35 engineer and much can be done (and
MUST be) to get the Jabiru 6 cooling sorted out but it is still
aircooled. Props are cheap for Jabiru but are really important to get
climb. At the moment I am near complete with a Falke Jabiru 85HP
conversion but that is only for towing Libelles etc and then on
blacktop. The good thing about Jabiru for us in Australia is parts
cheap and overnight. I do know the French are doing a falke
conversion to towing without Scheibe approvals!! Ian McPhee
Australia

[Andreas Maurer]

On 12 Nov 2004 11:39:55 -0800, (Ian McPhee)
wrote:

>The hk36 Dimona with either 100hp or 115hp is a large outlay and the
>prop can easily be damages with the longish groundrun if there is any
>stone at all on strip. At the moment I am trying to deceide engine
>for a late model falke - Sauer 2700 105HP, Rotax 100HP or Jabiru
>120HP. I have all the engineering done for the Jabiru by one of
>Australia's most experienced Reg35 engineer and much can be done (and
>MUST be) to get the Jabiru 6 cooling sorted out but it is still
>aircooled. Props are cheap for Jabiru but are really important to get
>climb. At the moment I am near complete with a Falke Jabiru 85HP
>conversion but that is only for towing Libelles etc and then on
>blacktop.

Hi Ian,
be careful with the Jabiru engine. I've seen a couple of aircraft with
these engines, and they all have significant problems with their power
output (the 85 hp engine looked more like about 65 hp, and the 120 hp
had less performance than a Rotax 912S at 100 hp).

As you say it - the cooling of the 3300 is a problem, not to mention
the air supply to the centered airbox (this is where the power loss
came from onth planes I saw).

If you are searching for an engine for a tow plane, check the Limbach
2400 ET/DT. It delivers true 135 hp with an unregulated turbocharger,
weighs 85 kg and is available for about 26.000 EUR. It's used in a
G-109 conversion and over 100 of these engines are already flying,
apparently pretty successful and reliable.


Bye
Andreas