NBC news stupidity

[Cy Galley]

You might express you outrage to this irresponsible act to
I did. Now to sit back and see their spin on the stupidity.

Cy Galley
Safety Programs Editor
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----






To: AAAE Transportation Security Services Committee

AAAE Non Hub/General Aviation Committee

AAAE Regulatory Membership



From: Rebecca Morrison
> - Staff Vice President,
Transportation Security Policy Department, AAAE



Re: Attempted Security Breach at GA Facility



Date: August 11, 2004



The following is a description of an incident that occurred today at the
St. Louis Downtown Airport, a large GA facility. We are sharing this
story with you as there are indications that it might be repeated
throughout the country. We would like to thank Bob McDaniel, the
Director at the St. Louis Downtown Airport, for sharing the details of
the incident outlined below.



Earlier today two Middle Eastern men attempted to penetrate our
security. They telephoned one of my helicopter FBOs and asked about a
charter flight. After discussion of price and directions to the
business, they arrived an hour later. When the office agent asked how
they were going to pay for the flight they produced cash. When asked
for ID, they produced driver's licenses from two different states and
they were driving a car licensed in a third state.



Things didn't smell right so the mechanic took them into the hangar to
see the aircraft while the office person called the FBI and local
police. The helicopter they were going to fly was blocked in by other
aircraft so the mechanic was able to stall them by having to slowly
shuffle the blocking planes. Meanwhile the two men got their backpacks
and odd-shaped luggage out of their car. Soon the local police arrived
and they were hauled off to jail in handcuffs.



After a little time behind bars, the FBI verified that the two men were
employed by NBC New York and were on assignment to get a story of how
easy it is to charter a helicopter for a terrorist attack. The men had
stayed in a local hotel and purchased box cutters, leather-man knives,
and other potential weapons at the local Wal-Mart using a credit card.
The box cutters had been hidden in the lining at the bottom of the back
packs and the other weapons were hidden throughout their baggage. They
had audiotaped the telephone conversation with Arlene and were going to
use it as part of a national news story about how easy it is to get
information and directions to the location of the helicopter and then
hijack it to commit a terrorist attack.



I doubt they will be back at our airport soon and this is a story that
will never be seen since they were caught. A very "well-done" to my FBO
and staff and the local FBI and police response forces. We have since
learned that we were the first airport where this had been attempted and
NBC planned to attempt similar penetration stories around the country.
Please helm me spread the word to other airports.





Please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions or comments.





**********************************

Rebecca K. Morrison

Staff Vice President, Transportation Security Policy

American Association of Airport Executives

601 Madison Street, Suite 400

Alexandria, VA 22314

703 797-2524
Fax: 703 820-1395

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <i1SSc.295339$XM6.210622@attbi_s53>,
"Cy Galley" > wrote:

> You might express you outrage to this irresponsible act to
> I did. Now to sit back and see their spin on the stupidity.
>
> Cy Galley
> Safety Programs Editor
> EAA Sport Pilot
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: AAAE Transportation Security Services Committee
>
> AAAE Non Hub/General Aviation Committee
>
> AAAE Regulatory Membership
>
>
>
> From: Rebecca Morrison
> > - Staff Vice President,
> Transportation Security Policy Department, AAAE
>
>
>
> Re: Attempted Security Breach at GA Facility
>
>
>
> Date: August 11, 2004
>
>
>
> The following is a description of an incident that occurred today at the
> St. Louis Downtown Airport, a large GA facility. We are sharing this
> story with you as there are indications that it might be repeated
> throughout the country. We would like to thank Bob McDaniel, the
> Director at the St. Louis Downtown Airport, for sharing the details of
> the incident outlined below.
>
>
>
> Earlier today two Middle Eastern men attempted to penetrate our
> security. They telephoned one of my helicopter FBOs and asked about a
> charter flight. After discussion of price and directions to the
> business, they arrived an hour later. When the office agent asked how
> they were going to pay for the flight they produced cash. When asked
> for ID, they produced driver's licenses from two different states and
> they were driving a car licensed in a third state.
>
>
>
> Things didn't smell right so the mechanic took them into the hangar to
> see the aircraft while the office person called the FBI and local
> police. The helicopter they were going to fly was blocked in by other
> aircraft so the mechanic was able to stall them by having to slowly
> shuffle the blocking planes. Meanwhile the two men got their backpacks
> and odd-shaped luggage out of their car. Soon the local police arrived
> and they were hauled off to jail in handcuffs.
>
>
>
> After a little time behind bars, the FBI verified that the two men were
> employed by NBC New York and were on assignment to get a story of how
> easy it is to charter a helicopter for a terrorist attack. The men had
> stayed in a local hotel and purchased box cutters, leather-man knives,
> and other potential weapons at the local Wal-Mart using a credit card.
> The box cutters had been hidden in the lining at the bottom of the back
> packs and the other weapons were hidden throughout their baggage. They
> had audiotaped the telephone conversation with Arlene and were going to
> use it as part of a national news story about how easy it is to get
> information and directions to the location of the helicopter and then
> hijack it to commit a terrorist attack.
>
>
>
> I doubt they will be back at our airport soon and this is a story that
> will never be seen since they were caught. A very "well-done" to my FBO
> and staff and the local FBI and police response forces. We have since
> learned that we were the first airport where this had been attempted and
> NBC planned to attempt similar penetration stories around the country.
> Please helm me spread the word to other airports.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions or comments.
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************
>
> Rebecca K. Morrison
>
> Staff Vice President, Transportation Security Policy
>
> American Association of Airport Executives
>
> 601 Madison Street, Suite 400
>
> Alexandria, VA 22314
>
> 703 797-2524
> Fax: 703 820-1395


I also doubt that this incident will make it off the cutting room floor!
I hope that the judge throws the book at them!

[TaxSrv]

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote:
> I hope that the judge throws the book at them!

I think it's implied they were not arrested. What law did they
violate?

If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
difference? The targeted auto dealer may be known to be sleazy, but
if the FBO had agreed to the charter, what adjective do they deserve?

Fred F.

[Harry K]

"Cy Galley" > wrote in message news:<i1SSc.295339$XM6.210622@attbi_s53>...
> You might express you outrage to this irresponsible act to
> I did. Now to sit back and see their spin on the stupidity.
>
> Cy Galley
> Safety Programs Editor
> EAA Sport Pilot
> ----- Original Message -----
>

<snip>

There surely must be some crime they can be charged with. Oddly, I
just read a book 'Storming Heaven' by Dale Brown with just this
scenario except they end up getting shot down.

Harry K

[G EddieA95]

>I think it's implied they were not arrested. What law did they
>violate?

"Hauled off in handcuffs" normally implies an arrest.

And in post-terrorist America, there will easily be *some* law that can be
stretched to fit.

>If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
>get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
>an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
>difference?

Because they were in effect a false alarm in a time of public danger.

[Roger Halstead]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:18:54 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
wrote:

Maybe, just maybe they will treat them like any one else trying the
same stunt. They had potential weapons and could easily be
infiltrators into the stations.

They should be held with no bail on federal charges, and taken to
court. Let the network defend them and if necessary pay the fines and
let the bosses serve the time as accomplices for planning the jobs.

I agree with the "throw the book at them". They certainly would were
it some student or individual trying to show a weakness in the system.
Besides any terrorist could claim they were just trying to expose any
weaknesses.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger Halstead]

On 13 Aug 2004 03:50:21 GMT, (G EddieA95) wrote:

>>I think it's implied they were not arrested. What law did they
>>violate?
>
>"Hauled off in handcuffs" normally implies an arrest.
>
>And in post-terrorist America, there will easily be *some* law that can be
>stretched to fit.
>
>>If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
>>get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
>>an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
>>difference?
>
>Because they were in effect a false alarm in a time of public danger.

If they had the weapons it was as real as it gets. Treat them as
such.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[B2431]

>From: "TaxSrv"
>Date: 8/12/2004 9:48 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Orval Fairbairn" wrote:
>> I hope that the judge throws the book at them!
>
>I think it's implied they were not arrested. What law did they
>violate?
>
>If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
>get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
>an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
>difference? The targeted auto dealer may be known to be sleazy, but
>if the FBO had agreed to the charter, what adjective do they deserve?
>
>Fred F.

If it is illegal to smuggle weapons onto a charter it is also illegal to
attempt to do so.

How far were they prepared to go? If they had displayed the weapons in flight
to prove they could do it it would be just as criminal, in my opinion, as
telling a stewardess in flight you have a bomb even if you didn't.

Your analogy to the crooked car dealer was unfortunate in that one could easily
infer you were saying the charter service was also crooked.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Matt Whiting]

G EddieA95 wrote:

>>I think it's implied they were not arrested. What law did they
>>violate?
>
>
> "Hauled off in handcuffs" normally implies an arrest.
>
> And in post-terrorist America, there will easily be *some* law that can be
> stretched to fit.
>
>
>>If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
>>get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
>>an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
>>difference?
>
>
> Because they were in effect a false alarm in a time of public danger.

Even if they can't be charged criminally, they at least should bill NBC
for the law enforcement costs incurred. And the FBO should sue them for
the mental anguish caused to their employees. It had to be just a
little nerve wracking trying to stall people that you believed to be
armed terrorists.


Matt

[Mark Hickey]

Roger Halstead > wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:18:54 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
>wrote:
>
>Maybe, just maybe they will treat them like any one else trying the
>same stunt. They had potential weapons and could easily be
>infiltrators into the stations.
>
>They should be held with no bail on federal charges, and taken to
>court. Let the network defend them and if necessary pay the fines and
>let the bosses serve the time as accomplices for planning the jobs.
>
>I agree with the "throw the book at them". They certainly would were
>it some student or individual trying to show a weakness in the system.
>Besides any terrorist could claim they were just trying to expose any
>weaknesses.

Not to mention that dragging them kicking and screaming through the
system would accomplish two important things.

One, it would probably be picked up by OTHER networks, thereby
promoting the reality that the GA industry is watching out for itself,
and two, it would annoy NBC.

Mark Hickey

[TaxSrv]

"B2431" wrote:
> ...
> How far were they prepared to go? If they had displayed the weapons
in flight
> to prove they could do it it would be just as criminal, in my
opinion, as
> telling a stewardess in flight you have a bomb even if you didn't.

The are federal criminal laws which apply to air carrier and what is a
weapon, and they apply to media doing undercover stunts. I know of no
criminal law which says you cannot have a utility knife on board a
charter aircraft.

This flight could even have been Part 91. Is it now OK for some
do-gooder to observe a passenger of ours who looks Middle Eastern and
has an apparent large knife and odd stuff to put in the aircraft, and
call the police? Because he appears to the citizen not to be known to
you.

If you say OK, they'll come out and ask a few questions and everything
will be cool. But what if they surround you and your friend with
drawn weapons?

I'm not defending what NBC did, nor a big fan of the ACLU, and the FBO
acted laudably. But unless there's a criminal law violated here, this
incident shouldn't sound all that good to us pilots.

Fred F.

[Dude]

Yep,

I think dem dar be sum sort of communist sympathizerz. Just Shoot'em.

Seriously, I hope they do through the book at them, and pull their press
passes permanently as a term of probation. A large civil fine would also be
appropriate. I would like to see what NBC does with these guys if we can
put them into a position wherre they can't do their jobs due to court
order. Either NBC is out money to keep them around uselessly, or they fire
them and all the other reporters get the idea that these stupid stunts ARE
stupid.






"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:18:54 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
> wrote:
>
> Maybe, just maybe they will treat them like any one else trying the
> same stunt. They had potential weapons and could easily be
> infiltrators into the stations.
>
> They should be held with no bail on federal charges, and taken to
> court. Let the network defend them and if necessary pay the fines and
> let the bosses serve the time as accomplices for planning the jobs.
>
> I agree with the "throw the book at them". They certainly would were
> it some student or individual trying to show a weakness in the system.
> Besides any terrorist could claim they were just trying to expose any
> weaknesses.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

[C J Campbell]

Pulling out knives or weapons during a flight and acting in a threatening
manner is a good way to get yourself killed. I would rather destroy the
plane than let a terrorist have it. Once they start acting like terrorists,
they're done. Any terrorist could later claim that he is really a reporter.

Just like an NBC reporter, bringing a Leatherman tool to a gunfight.

[Rich S.]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
>
> I agree with the "throw the book at them".

Gitmo??

Rich "Off with their heads!" S.

[Darrel Toepfer]

C J Campbell wrote:
> Pulling out knives or weapons during a flight and acting in a threatening
> manner is a good way to get yourself killed. I would rather destroy the
> plane than let a terrorist have it. Once they start acting like terrorists,
> they're done. Any terrorist could later claim that he is really a reporter.
>
> Just like an NBC reporter, bringing a Leatherman tool to a gunfight.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2efbbe52.0402201118.7d5a6b22%40posting .google.com&output=gplain

You'd think they'd kneaux better than to mess with St. Louis rotor
jockies...

[Matt Whiting]

TaxSrv wrote:

> "B2431" wrote:
>
>>...
>>How far were they prepared to go? If they had displayed the weapons
>
> in flight
>
>>to prove they could do it it would be just as criminal, in my
>
> opinion, as
>
>>telling a stewardess in flight you have a bomb even if you didn't.
>
>
> The are federal criminal laws which apply to air carrier and what is a
> weapon, and they apply to media doing undercover stunts. I know of no
> criminal law which says you cannot have a utility knife on board a
> charter aircraft.
>
> This flight could even have been Part 91. Is it now OK for some
> do-gooder to observe a passenger of ours who looks Middle Eastern and
> has an apparent large knife and odd stuff to put in the aircraft, and
> call the police? Because he appears to the citizen not to be known to
> you.

It has always been OK to report suspicious behavior.


> If you say OK, they'll come out and ask a few questions and everything
> will be cool. But what if they surround you and your friend with
> drawn weapons?

Well, I'm not a rocket scientist, but I'd suggest that you make no quick
moves towards your pockets and that you do EXACTLY what they tell you to
do. Is this really that hard to figure out?


> I'm not defending what NBC did, nor a big fan of the ACLU, and the FBO
> acted laudably. But unless there's a criminal law violated here, this
> incident shouldn't sound all that good to us pilots.

Well, it sounds fantastic to this pilot.


Matt

[Blueskies]

Hold them as detainees...no lawyer, no book, no freedom...

--
Dan D.
http://www.ameritech.net/users/ddevillers/start.html


..
"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:18:54 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
> wrote:
>
> Maybe, just maybe they will treat them like any one else trying the
> same stunt. They had potential weapons and could easily be
> infiltrators into the stations.
>
> They should be held with no bail on federal charges, and taken to
> court. Let the network defend them and if necessary pay the fines and
> let the bosses serve the time as accomplices for planning the jobs.
>
> I agree with the "throw the book at them". They certainly would were
> it some student or individual trying to show a weakness in the system.
> Besides any terrorist could claim they were just trying to expose any
> weaknesses.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

[Mark Hickey]

(B2431) wrote:

>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight and
>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box cutter
>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack" you
>would still feel threatened.

I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."

Mark Hickey

[B2431]

>From: Mark Hickey
>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(B2431) wrote:
>
>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight
>and
>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box cutter
>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack" you
>>would still feel threatened.
>
>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>
>Mark Hickey

9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[John_F]

These fools apparently did not know that helicopter skyjacking has
already been tried in Saint Louis a few years ago. Apparently some
people there remember this.
A skyjacker pulled a gun on Allen Barklage and wanted him to land a
helicopter in a prison yard to make a pickup. Allen shot the
skyjacker dead.
How he did it is amazing since helicopters are an unstable beast and
will try to go inverted and kill you in short order as soon as you
turn loose of the cyclic.
I think that the judge should make an example out of these people and
their bosses so they do not try to skyjack an aircraft again. Just
because ther are the "PRESS" does not mean they are above the law.
John

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:43:16 -0500, Darrel Toepfer
> wrote:

>C J Campbell wrote:
>> Pulling out knives or weapons during a flight and acting in a threatening
>> manner is a good way to get yourself killed. I would rather destroy the
>> plane than let a terrorist have it. Once they start acting like terrorists,
>> they're done. Any terrorist could later claim that he is really a reporter.
>>
>> Just like an NBC reporter, bringing a Leatherman tool to a gunfight.
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2efbbe52.0402201118.7d5a6b22%40posting .google.com&output=gplain
>
>You'd think they'd kneaux better than to mess with St. Louis rotor
>jockies...

[Harry K]

(B2431) wrote in message >...
> >From: "TaxSrv"
> >Date: 8/13/2004 8:52 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"B2431" wrote:
> >> ...
> >> How far were they prepared to go? If they had displayed the weapons
> in flight
> >> to prove they could do it it would be just as criminal, in my
> opinion, as
> >> telling a stewardess in flight you have a bomb even if you didn't.
> >
> >The are federal criminal laws which apply to air carrier and what is a
> >weapon, and they apply to media doing undercover stunts. I know of no
> >criminal law which says you cannot have a utility knife on board a
> >charter aircraft.
> >
> >This flight could even have been Part 91. Is it now OK for some
> >do-gooder to observe a passenger of ours who looks Middle Eastern and
> >has an apparent large knife and odd stuff to put in the aircraft, and
> >call the police? Because he appears to the citizen not to be known to
> >you.
> >
> >If you say OK, they'll come out and ask a few questions and everything
> >will be cool. But what if they surround you and your friend with
> >drawn weapons?
> >
> >I'm not defending what NBC did, nor a big fan of the ACLU, and the FBO
> >acted laudably. But unless there's a criminal law violated here, this
> >incident shouldn't sound all that good to us pilots.
> >
> >Fred F.
>
> From what I read I gather they were acting squirrely. If I had been there I
> would have been a tad nervous. Under those circumstances I would have been
> correct in feeling threatened. Bear in mind in most states you can rob a 7-11
> with a toy gun and still get charged with armed robery since the victim would
> have felt threatened.
>
> Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight and
> some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box cutter
> and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack" you
> would still feel threatened. Now take this scenario and plug it in to the stunt
> NBC pulled. Given the post 9/11 enhanced vigilence the FBO acted with properly.
>
> I am no lawyer, but it would seem to me that if the victims felt threatened
> then a threat had been conveyed which I believe IS a crime.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Yep. I have long maintained that we need a law allowing charges for
'felony stupidity'. This incident would certainly comply with that
definition.

Harry K

[Matt Whiting]

B2431 wrote:

>>From: Mark Hickey
>>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight
>>
>>and
>>
>>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box cutter
>>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack" you
>>>would still feel threatened.
>>
>>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>>
>>Mark Hickey
>
>
> 9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
..44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.


Matt

[Rich S.]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
> .44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
> do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
> imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
> wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
>

I had a Ruger .30 carbine revolver with a loose cylinder/barrel gap. The
crack of the report would kill a crow at thirty feet and the side blast from
the cylinder would blow the hats off the guys shooting at the stations to
your left and right.

Rich "The crow was old and had a heart condition" S.

[B2431]

>From: Matt Whiting
>Date: 8/13/2004 9:51 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>B2431 wrote:
>
>>>From: Mark Hickey
>>>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box
>cutter
>>>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack"
>you
>>>>would still feel threatened.
>>>
>>>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>>>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>>>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>>>
>>>Mark Hickey
>>
>>
>> 9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
>.44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
>do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
>imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
>wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
>
>
>Matt

I think it should be legal to fire 3 warning shots to the head.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Matt Whiting]

Rich S. wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
>>.44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
>>do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
>>imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
>>wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
>>
>
>
> I had a Ruger .30 carbine revolver with a loose cylinder/barrel gap. The
> crack of the report would kill a crow at thirty feet and the side blast from
> the cylinder would blow the hats off the guys shooting at the stations to
> your left and right.

That's about the only way a .30 carbine can do any damage! :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

B2431 wrote:

>>From: Matt Whiting
>>Date: 8/13/2004 9:51 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>B2431 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>From: Mark Hickey
>>>>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight
>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box
>>
>>cutter
>>
>>>>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack"
>>
>>you
>>
>>>>>would still feel threatened.
>>>>
>>>>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>>>>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>>>>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>>>>
>>>>Mark Hickey
>>>
>>>
>>>9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>>>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
>>.44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
>>do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
>>imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
>>wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> I think it should be legal to fire 3 warning shots to the head.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

It probably should be not only legal, but mandatory.

Matt

[C J Campbell]

"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
> "Orval Fairbairn" wrote:
> > I hope that the judge throws the book at them!
>
> I think it's implied they were not arrested. What law did they
> violate?
>
> If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
> get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
> an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
> difference? The targeted auto dealer may be known to be sleazy, but
> if the FBO had agreed to the charter, what adjective do they deserve?

Why would I believe anything that NBC has to say about a car dealer? These
are the guys who tried to prove that Chevy trucks were dangerous by using
fireworks to cause the gas tanks to explode.

[C J Campbell]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Mark Hickey
> >Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> (B2431) wrote:
> >
> >>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a
stoplight
> >and
> >>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box
cutter
> >>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack"
you
> >>would still feel threatened.
> >
> >I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
> >and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
> >holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
> >
> >Mark Hickey
>
> 9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.

Hey, I carry a 9mm and I aint no lady neither. A .45 is just too fat and
heavy. I keep looking at those Taurus Total Titanium guns, though.

[GaryP]

"TaxSrv" > wrote in message >...

> If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
> get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
> an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
> difference? The targeted auto dealer may be known to be sleazy, but
> if the FBO had agreed to the charter, what adjective do they deserve?
>
> Fred F.

Didn't the FBO agree to the charter, which is after all one of their sources
of revenue, until they became suspicious of the passengers? Didn't the FBO
continue with the facad to hold the suspects there until the Police/FBI
arrived? What possible parallel can you draw between the FBO and a crooked
car dealer?

If the media engages in a legal activity, e.g. a customer with a hidden
camera to show a crooked car dealership, that is one thing. When then
engage in an illegal activity, e.g. armed terrorist suspects attempting
to bypass airport security, that is another. Illegal is illegal no matter
what the motive. When you factor in the news media's ratings quest, their
Geobel-esk "the truth is what WE make it", and apparent desire to paint GA
as no good and the root of all Al Caida evil, it is outright criminal. They
should receive the same harsh treatement that the college student recieved
who smuggled boxcutters on a plane to demonstrate lapse airport security.

Gary P.

[TaxSrv]

"B2431" wrote:
> >I'm not defending what NBC did, nor a big fan of the ACLU, and the
> > FBO acted laudably. But unless there's a criminal law violated
here,
> > this incident shouldn't sound all that good to us pilots.
> >
> >Fred F.
>
> From what I read I gather they were acting squirrely. If I had been
> there I would have been a tad nervous. Under those circumstances
> I would have been correct in feeling threatened.
> ...
> I am no lawyer, but it would seem to me that if the victims felt
> threatened then a threat had been conveyed which I believe IS a
crime.
>
Sure, in our state is called aggravated menacing, a misdemeanor. If
you get into a shouting match with your neighbor, and he says he'd
like to kill you, you can call the police. Will they come out?
Maybe. Will they arrest him. No.

I doubt the FBO people felt really threatened. They surely had no
intention of flying these guys anywhere. The individuals made no
threatening statements nor exhibited inherently threatening behavior.
The "victims" had no knowledge of weapons in their luggage -- a knife
and the now infamous Stanley boxcutter. Maybe they had an actual gun.
So just act real polite and hope police arrive soon.

The police could have come and checked them out on the spot, called
NBC News to verify, then everybody go out and laugh over pitchers of
beer. We as a society can protect ourselves without going freakazoid.
To the point of even talking preemptive use of our guns.

Fred F.

[Matt Whiting]

C J Campbell wrote:

> "B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>From: Mark Hickey
>>>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a
>
> stoplight
>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box
>
> cutter
>
>>>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack"
>
> you
>
>>>>would still feel threatened.
>>>
>>>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>>>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>>>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>>>
>>>Mark Hickey
>>
>>9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>
>
> Hey, I carry a 9mm and I aint no lady neither. A .45 is just too fat and
> heavy. I keep looking at those Taurus Total Titanium guns, though.
>
>

Nah, my Colt Series 80 is nice and trim. A double stack .45 is fat, but
not ones designed as God and John Browning intended.


Matt

[Rich S.]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hey, I carry a 9mm and I aint no lady neither. A .45 is just too fat and
> heavy.

C.J..........

Check out http://www.detonicsusa.com/index.html

Jeff Cooper, Guns & Ammo, 12/74

"This remarkable pistol is the smallest, lowest recoil single action .45
caliber semi-automatic in the world. The Detonics .45 is a premium quality
professional tool for the serious handgun expert and combat shooter. It is
capable of providing the brute force stopping power of the standard-sized
..45 in a size no larger than a snub-nosed .38, or "pocket" 9mm auto. The
Detonics .45 has an advanced mechanism which reduces the apparent recoil
remarkably below the full-sized .45. This awesomely powerful pistol is
smaller, more easily concealed, and has greater short/medium range rapid
fire accuracy than any single action .45 weapon available today. This
masterpiece of combat design is gaining recognition as the finest defensive
handgun in the world today."

Rich "That's *my* portable half-inch drill" S.

[Roger Halstead]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:48:41 -0400, "TaxSrv" >
wrote:

>"Orval Fairbairn" wrote:
>> I hope that the judge throws the book at them!
>
>I think it's implied they were not arrested. What law did they
>violate?
>
>If media goes undercover to a used car dealer to show how buyers can
>get screwed, you'd probably agree with that. If they go undercover to
>an FBO under circumstances which were obviously suspicious, what's the
>difference? The targeted auto dealer may be known to be sleazy, but
>if the FBO had agreed to the charter, what adjective do they deserve?

You don't see the difference?

In the first the crew is not trying to break the law, they are
attempting to catch someone else breaking the law.. In the second they
are doing something illegal by carrying box cutters and other weapons
aboard. IOW they carried it too far. OTOH do you think they will give
GA a fair and unbiased report? Aren't they the ones who got caught
rigging the side mounted gas tanks to explode when all other attempts
failed in their "expose" of the "gas tank problem"?

There is nothing against the law attempting to charter the
plane/helicopter in and of itself, but they went beyond the law when
they actually had the weapons.

Now, when and if they ever air the "expose" of airport security do you
think the fact they were caught the first time they tried it will make
the news. You'd think this would have been turned into a high profile
incident to alert terrorists, "It ain't all that easy" and to ease the
general public's concerns. Instead I have seen no mention of it on
any news even after it was sent out by the AOPA. IOW, The Airport
Watch worked in this case and that to them isn't as newsworthy as
"News crew sneaks weapons aboard easily rented helicopter".

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Fred F.

[TaxSrv]

"GaryP" wrote:
> ...
> Didn't the FBO agree to the charter, which is after all one of their
sources
> of revenue, until they became suspicious of the passengers? ... What
> possible parallel can you draw between the FBO and a crooked car
dealer?
>
I was implying a case where the FBO went ahead and flew them, without
the security awareness they should have. I don't agree with NBC's
judgment on the potential GA security threat, but this is only what
they were looking for, same as hidden camera looking for cockroaches
in a restaurant kitchen.

> When they engage in an illegal activity, e.g. armed terrorist
suspects
> attempting to bypass airport security, that is another.

You cited a crime whch doesn't exist, unless local law prohibits
carriage of even a Stanley utility knife onto this airport property.
That's the case if you do that at an air carrier airport, but only
past the security point, under federal law. If thery broke a law,
nothing yet on google news that says which one it was.

> Illegal is illegal no matter what the motive.

Believe that's exactly correct. Criminal intent means only that the
person had or should have had knowledge he did something the law
forbids. So in the case of your college kid on a do-good mission, he
can be prosecuted and maybe was. Applies to media too, and they have
been at least arrested once as I recall. But gov't should think hard
about prosecuting media due to the 1st Amendment issue. We've shut
down selected media in Iraq and now are letting the Iraqis do it.
This is not the flower of a Middle East democracy Bush promised, and I
don't think we want to go near that stuff here.

And...if media could get an actual gun onto an airliner, wouldn't you
really want to know that? Gov't knows the small but real probability
it's airport security measures can be breached--they quietly test it.
Prosecuting media who try to find out what they will never tell us
doesn't sound good to me.

F--

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 22:51:28 -0400, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

>B2431 wrote:
>
>>>From: Mark Hickey
>>>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box cutter
>>>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack" you
>>>>would still feel threatened.
>>>
>>>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>>>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>>>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>>>
>>>Mark Hickey
>>
>>
>> 9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
>.44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
>do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
>imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You

9mm with HP "Hydra-shok"

Oh, you'd be able to hear again... In a couple of hours to a couple of
days although the ringing in your ears my stay for the rest of your
life. <:-)) Anything other than small caliber inside a confined space
is deafening and I mean that literally.

>wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.

Or the pilot for that matter. The 45 has relatively low chamber and
muzzle pressure, but the 44 has considerably higher pressures and
attendant noise.

I once had a S&W 22 cal Remington Jet. It's a 357 necked to 22. As I
recall, cylinder pressure was on the order of 44,000 PSI. The muzzle
blast and flash were something to behold. The gas leakage between the
cylinder and muzzle was like a knife that could cut through some
pretty substantial materials. BTW it was the only pistol I ever owned
that could obscure the target with the muzzle flash.

Like many things, I wish I still had that thing. Not that I'd find any
practical use for it. The last box of ammo I saw had a price of over
$50 US and I believe the revolver was at $1700 US.
>
It would both deafen and blind an attacker, but you'd want to remember
to roll the window down on your side before firing. <:-))

The old Cherokee I used to fly had one 45 cal bullet hole and two more
glancing dents. Drive-by at the FBO one night.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Matt

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:29:43 -0700, "Rich S."
> wrote:

>"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>> The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
>> .44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
>> do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
>> imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
>> wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
>>
>
>I had a Ruger .30 carbine revolver with a loose cylinder/barrel gap. The
>crack of the report would kill a crow at thirty feet and the side blast from
>the cylinder would blow the hats off the guys shooting at the stations to
>your left and right.
>
>Rich "The crow was old and had a heart condition" S.

Back in "The old Days" I attended a turkey shoot at the Ithica Gun
Club (Ithica MI). One gunsmith had built up a revolver based on the
Colt Peacemaker. The only difference which made the thing memorable
was the cartridge. It was chambered for the 45-70. That cylinder was
huge. For that matter so was the revolver. Not that the 45-70 makes a
practical pistol cartridge. Half the powder was still unburned when
it went out the muzzle in a very spectacular fashion. Just think of
the attention on the firing like when you start slipping those huge
cartridges into the cylinder. <:-))

Man, talk about thread drift.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>

[Roger Halstead]

On 14 Aug 2004 03:39:47 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>From: Matt Whiting
>>Date: 8/13/2004 9:51 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>B2431 wrote:
>>
>>>>From: Mark Hickey
>>>>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight
>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box
>>cutter
>>>>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack"
>>you
>>>>>would still feel threatened.
>>>>
>>>>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>>>>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>>>>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>>>>
>>>>Mark Hickey
>>>
>>>
>>> 9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
>>.44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
>>do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
>>imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
>>wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>I think it should be legal to fire 3 warning shots to the head.

You remember the old story...?
Skipping most: When interviewed after a stand off, the reporter asked
the sheriff; "I understand that several officers were wounded during
the firefight, but in the end the fugitive committed suicide rather
than surrender?" The old sheriff replied, "Yup, shot 37 times in the
head. Worst case of suicide I ever saw."

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, C J Campbell says...

>Why would I believe anything that NBC has to say about a car dealer? These
>are the guys who tried to prove that Chevy trucks were dangerous by using
>fireworks to cause the gas tanks to explode.

or shoot watermelons with a hand gun with hollow points to show it explode
because the AK with FMJ ammo didn't do anything but produce a puncture hole.
Credibility they got the same credibility as zoom ,jaun and ANN .I don't believe
any of them :-)

See ya

Chuck (gun control is hitting what your aiming at) S

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 06:40:32 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: Mark Hickey
>> >Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> (B2431) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a
>stoplight
>> >and
>> >>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box
>cutter
>> >>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack"
>you
>> >>would still feel threatened.
>> >
>> >I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>> >and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>> >holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>> >
>> >Mark Hickey
>>
>> 9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>
>Hey, I carry a 9mm and I aint no lady neither. A .45 is just too fat and
>heavy. I keep looking at those Taurus Total Titanium guns, though.

As I recall those are DAOs too. I always said I never wanted a DAO
until I got the Glock.
>
Wayyy back when I was a "gun runner" and Dudley's T-Rex was still a
hatchling, I had a little Charter Arms, 5 shot 38 special. You
didn't need a large hand to completely cover it. When used with +P, or
worse yet ++P loads that little sucker would darn near unhinge your
wrist. It was more uncomfortable to shoot than any 44 mag I ever shot.
Course the warning to not use +P, loads was right on the box. <:-))
Worked real well with hollow base wad cutters loaded backwards. At
least to about 15 feet which was probably as good as you could do with
match loads in that little sucker.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:47:17 -0700, Mark Hickey >
wrote:

>Roger Halstead > wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:18:54 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>Maybe, just maybe they will treat them like any one else trying the
>>same stunt. They had potential weapons and could easily be
>>infiltrators into the stations.
>>
>>They should be held with no bail on federal charges, and taken to
>>court. Let the network defend them and if necessary pay the fines and
>>let the bosses serve the time as accomplices for planning the jobs.
>>
>>I agree with the "throw the book at them". They certainly would were
>>it some student or individual trying to show a weakness in the system.
>>Besides any terrorist could claim they were just trying to expose any
>>weaknesses.
>
>Not to mention that dragging them kicking and screaming through the
>system would accomplish two important things.
>
>One, it would probably be picked up by OTHER networks, thereby
>promoting the reality that the GA industry is watching out for itself,
>and two, it would annoy NBC.

And three it would send a very important message to potential
hijackers of GA aircraft.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Mark Hickey

[Matt Whiting]

Roger Halstead wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 22:51:28 -0400, Matt Whiting
> > wrote:
>
>
>>B2431 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>From: Mark Hickey
>>>>Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Let's take this out of aviation for a moment. If you were at a stoplight
>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>some guy opened your passenger door and hopped in then produced a box cutter
>>>>>and said "Hi, I'm from NBC and I just proved how easy it is to car jack" you
>>>>>would still feel threatened.
>>>>
>>>>I just had a mental picture of the driver saying "Hi, I'm from the NRA
>>>>and I just proved how easy it is for this here 9mm to blow a few nice
>>>>holes in a carjacker... sorry about the shirt and all..."
>>>>
>>>>Mark Hickey
>>>
>>>
>>>9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>>>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
>>.44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
>>do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
>>imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
>
>
> 9mm with HP "Hydra-shok"
>
> Oh, you'd be able to hear again... In a couple of hours to a couple of
> days although the ringing in your ears my stay for the rest of your
> life. <:-)) Anything other than small caliber inside a confined space
> is deafening and I mean that literally.

What'd you say? :-)

I think the velocity of the bullet is much more of a factor than its
size. My .220 Swift and 7MM are much louder than my .45 or even .44 Mag.


>>wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
>
>
> Or the pilot for that matter. The 45 has relatively low chamber and
> muzzle pressure, but the 44 has considerably higher pressures and
> attendant noise.

True, the .44 velocity is much higher than the .45, and affect on the
target is much greater as well. :-)
I'm just a big bore fan. Anything less than .41 Mag is a toy in my
book. Great for practice and target shooting (love my Ruger 22/45), but
for serious business I'll take one of my big bores any day.


Matt

[jls]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "TaxSrv"
> >Date: 8/13/2004 8:52 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >

> I am no lawyer*, but it would seem to me that if the victims felt
threatened
> then a threat had been conveyed which I believe IS a crime.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

What crime would that be? If I feel that you have threatened me, does that
in and of itself constitute a crime?

*Decidedly

Of course, none of this has anything to do with RAH, does it?

[B2431]

>From: Matt Whiting
>
>
>That's about the only way a .30 carbine can do any damage! :-)
>
>Matt

Actually the .30 caliber has been the butt of many jokes. The round was never
intended to be a pistol round. The rifle was bought by the Army for men whose
primary weapon was NOT a rifle. In fact out to about 75 meters it is a
reasonably accurate weapon with good stopping power. At that range I'd take it
over any standard side arm. Given a choice of the carbine or garand I'd take
the garand however. Then again I am a big guy and carrying that beast is easy
for me.

What does this have to do with RAH?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Matt Whiting]

jls wrote:

> "B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>From: "TaxSrv"
>>>Date: 8/13/2004 8:52 AM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>
>>I am no lawyer*, but it would seem to me that if the victims felt
>
> threatened
>
>>then a threat had been conveyed which I believe IS a crime.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
> What crime would that be? If I feel that you have threatened me, does that
> in and of itself constitute a crime?

Yes, you can be charged with what is called "terrorist threats." This
has been around a long time, long before 9/11.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

B2431 wrote:

>>From: Matt Whiting
>>
>>
>>That's about the only way a .30 carbine can do any damage! :-)
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Actually the .30 caliber has been the butt of many jokes. The round was never
> intended to be a pistol round. The rifle was bought by the Army for men whose
> primary weapon was NOT a rifle. In fact out to about 75 meters it is a
> reasonably accurate weapon with good stopping power. At that range I'd take it
> over any standard side arm. Given a choice of the carbine or garand I'd take
> the garand however. Then again I am a big guy and carrying that beast is easy
> for me.
>
> What does this have to do with RAH?

Defense against terrorists trying to hijack GA aircraft, homebuilt or
otherwise. :-)


Matt

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Matt Whiting says...
>>
>> What crime would that be? If I feel that you have threatened me, does that
>> in and of itself constitute a crime?
>
>Yes, you can be charged with what is called "terrorist threats." This
>has been around a long time, long before 9/11.

Just ask those who have been accused of being terrorists by zoom
campbell,because "he" felt he was being threatened by us. Depends on your
definition of threaten because by zooms definition anyone who disagrees with
him is threatening him....Therefore...

That's how this pertains to RAH :-)

See ya
Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret

[jls]

"ChuckSlusarczyk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Whiting says...
> >>
> >> What crime would that be? If I feel that you have threatened me, does
that
> >> in and of itself constitute a crime?
> >
> >Yes, you can be charged with what is called "terrorist threats." This
> >has been around a long time, long before 9/11.
>
> Just ask those who have been accused of being terrorists by zoom
> campbell,because "he" felt he was being threatened by us. Depends on your
> definition of threaten because by zooms definition anyone who disagrees
with
> him is threatening him....Therefore...
>
> That's how this pertains to RAH :-)
>
> See ya
> Chuck S RAH-14/1 ret
>

Which is just exactly the point I was trying to make. The law of
communication of threats is objective, not subjective. A person may feel
threatened by perfectly innocuous, legitimate speech, either verbal or
nonverbal. Therefore, violation of law by communicating a threat must
contain an unambiguous communication putting the victim in present objective
fear of impending violence.

Thus, if I were to walk up to timid Mattie and frighten him with a cane in
my hand and say, "If it were not assize time, I would whack you upside the
head," or flip him off, the encounter, standing alone, would not constitute
a threat.

[TaxSrv]

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
> Yes, you can be charged with what is called "terrorist threats."
This
> has been around a long time, long before 9/11.
>
If that is 18 USC 2331 titled terrorism, there was no was violation of
it the way it reads. They made no threat nor acted in a threatening
manner. The content of the backpacks was unknown to the FBO, and they
were not items whose sole purpose is to cause harm. If they had a
genuine bomb, that would be different, and probably chargeable only
under another law.

People were getting freaked out by white vans in the Washington sniper
case. If you drove a white van there back then, is it OK by you to be
arrested and charged? The nonshooter I think was additionally charged
under a Virginia terror statute.

Fred F.

[Blueskies]

Hmmm...no slug required, a single shot flame thrower...

--
Dan D.
http://www.ameritech.net/users/ddevillers/start.html


..
"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:29:43 -0700, "Rich S."
> > wrote:
>
> >"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> The example was obviously a female NRA member. I also carry a .45 or a
> >> .44 Mag. The .44 is a little unwieldly though in tight quarters, but I
> >> do like the extra firepower and it is more accurate than my .45. I
> >> imagine the muzzle blast in a cockpit would be truly impressive. You
> >> wouldn't even have to hit the terrorist to put him out of commission.
> >>
> >
> >I had a Ruger .30 carbine revolver with a loose cylinder/barrel gap. The
> >crack of the report would kill a crow at thirty feet and the side blast from
> >the cylinder would blow the hats off the guys shooting at the stations to
> >your left and right.
> >
> >Rich "The crow was old and had a heart condition" S.
>
> Back in "The old Days" I attended a turkey shoot at the Ithica Gun
> Club (Ithica MI). One gunsmith had built up a revolver based on the
> Colt Peacemaker. The only difference which made the thing memorable
> was the cartridge. It was chambered for the 45-70. That cylinder was
> huge. For that matter so was the revolver. Not that the 45-70 makes a
> practical pistol cartridge. Half the powder was still unburned when
> it went out the muzzle in a very spectacular fashion. Just think of
> the attention on the firing like when you start slipping those huge
> cartridges into the cylinder. <:-))
>
> Man, talk about thread drift.
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
> >
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:39:19 -0700, Richard Riley
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:15:20 -0700, "Rich S."
> wrote:
>
>:"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>:>
>:> Hey, I carry a 9mm and I aint no lady neither. A .45 is just too fat and
>:> heavy.
>:
>:C.J..........
>:
>:Check out http://www.detonicsusa.com/index.html
>:
>: Jeff Cooper, Guns & Ammo, 12/74
>:
>:"This remarkable pistol is the smallest, lowest recoil single action .45
>:caliber semi-automatic in the world. The Detonics .45 is a premium quality
>:professional tool for the serious handgun expert and combat shooter. It is
>:capable of providing the brute force stopping power of the standard-sized
>:.45 in a size no larger than a snub-nosed .38, or "pocket" 9mm auto. The
>:Detonics .45 has an advanced mechanism which reduces the apparent recoil
>:remarkably below the full-sized .45. This awesomely powerful pistol is
>:smaller, more easily concealed, and has greater short/medium range rapid
>:fire accuracy than any single action .45 weapon available today. This
>:masterpiece of combat design is gaining recognition as the finest defensive
>:handgun in the world today."
>:
>:Rich "That's *my* portable half-inch drill" S.
>
>Huh? They're back in business? I thought they were gone forever. I
>still have a combat master I picked up in '80. Very sweet little 45 -
>though I haven't carried it in years. These days it's a Glock 30.
>
They have a very nice series of polymer DAOs even up through 40 cal.
Not sure about 10mm. Very light pull with the safety in the trigger.
Yah have to lean not to keep your finger on the trigger. I't only a
couple # pull. My S&W is something like 9# on #1 and about 3 for the
rest.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Robert Murray]

Friends don't let friends carry 9s. Definition of a 9mm - .45 set on "stun"

Bob, Deputy Sheriff, Retired
"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Mark Hickey
> >Date: 8/13/2004 5:07 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
>
> 9mm? You heathen!! I carry a 45.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Richard Lamb]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> B2431 wrote:
>
> >>From: Matt Whiting
> >>
> >>
> >>That's about the only way a .30 carbine can do any damage! :-)
> >>
> >>Matt
> >
> >
> > Actually the .30 caliber has been the butt of many jokes. The round was never
> > intended to be a pistol round. The rifle was bought by the Army for men whose
> > primary weapon was NOT a rifle. In fact out to about 75 meters it is a
> > reasonably accurate weapon with good stopping power. At that range I'd take it
> > over any standard side arm. Given a choice of the carbine or garand I'd take
> > the garand however. Then again I am a big guy and carrying that beast is easy
> > for me.
> >
> > What does this have to do with RAH?
>
> Defense against terrorists trying to hijack GA aircraft, homebuilt or
> otherwise. :-)
>
> Matt

Heck, my .380 will do that...

Richard

[Vaughn]

"Cy Galley" > wrote in message
news:i1SSc.295339$XM6.210622@attbi_s53...
>
>
>
> You might express you outrage to this irresponsible act to
> I did. Now to sit back and see their spin on the stupidity.
>
In spite of getting caught with their hands in the proverbial cookie jar,
NBC still felt the need to stir the pot. See their Aug. 13 article here titled:
"FBI: Al-Qaida could use helicopters, limos"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5626850/ .

Which offers the following flight of fancy: "...Helicopters might also be used
to spread chemical or biological agents in the ventilation systems of high-rise
buildings..."

They did not have the professional ethics or common decency to bother
mentioning the 100% relevant fact that they had tried to penetrate a helicopter
operation and failed miserably.

No polite term could possible describe my feelings for NBC right now. I
guess I will just have to settle for "****ing Lying Scumbags".

Vaughn

[RobertR237]

>>
>>
>> You might express you outrage to this irresponsible act to
>> I did. Now to sit back and see their spin on the stupidity.
>>
> In spite of getting caught with their hands in the proverbial cookie
>jar,
>NBC still felt the need to stir the pot. See their Aug. 13 article here
>titled:
>"FBI: Al-Qaida could use helicopters, limos"
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5626850/ .
>
>Which offers the following flight of fancy: "...Helicopters might also be
>used
>to spread chemical or biological agents in the ventilation systems of
>high-rise
>buildings..."
>
> They did not have the professional ethics or common decency to bother
>mentioning the 100% relevant fact that they had tried to penetrate a
>helicopter
>operation and failed miserably.
>
> No polite term could possible describe my feelings for NBC right now. I
>guess I will just have to settle for "****ing Lying Scumbags".
>
>Vaughn
>

The media, not just NBC, quit simply reporting the news many years ago. They
are no longer content to simply report, they will stop at nothing to help
create the news when it suits their purpose. I was a personal witness to the
news media paying to instigate a race riot in Houston in the late sixties.
There are many additional examples if you just scratch the surface of our
"news" entertainment media.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Harry K]

(RobertR237) wrote in message >...
> >>
> >>
> >> You might express you outrage to this irresponsible act to
> >> I did. Now to sit back and see their spin on the stupidity.
> >>
> > In spite of getting caught with their hands in the proverbial cookie
> >jar,
> >NBC still felt the need to stir the pot. See their Aug. 13 article here
> >titled:
> >"FBI: Al-Qaida could use helicopters, limos"
> >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5626850/ .
> >
> >Which offers the following flight of fancy: "...Helicopters might also be
> >used
> >to spread chemical or biological agents in the ventilation systems of
> >high-rise
> >buildings..."
> >
> > They did not have the professional ethics or common decency to bother
> >mentioning the 100% relevant fact that they had tried to penetrate a
> >helicopter
> >operation and failed miserably.
> >
> > No polite term could possible describe my feelings for NBC right now. I
> >guess I will just have to settle for "****ing Lying Scumbags".
> >
> >Vaughn
> >
>
> The media, not just NBC, quit simply reporting the news many years ago. They
> are no longer content to simply report, they will stop at nothing to help
> create the news when it suits their purpose. I was a personal witness to the
> news media paying to instigate a race riot in Houston in the late sixties.
> There are many additional examples if you just scratch the surface of our
> "news" entertainment media.
>
>
> Bob Reed
> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

I find it passing strange that I have seen/heard no reports of this
incident by any news agency except for the cite. Couldn't possibly be
that the media doesn't want to point fingers at other media??

Harry K

[C J Campbell]

"Harry K" > wrote in message
om...
> (RobertR237) wrote in message
>...
>
> I find it passing strange that I have seen/heard no reports of this
> incident by any news agency except for the cite. Couldn't possibly be
> that the media doesn't want to point fingers at other media??
>

Why do you find that strange? Fox does it indirectly, but it has not really
helped their credibility much and it invites retaliation from the other
networks. (Of course, it is hysterically funny that a comic strip like
"Doonesbury" will criticize Fox as being controlled by the Bush
administration. Makes you wonder who controls "Doonesbury.")

[RobertR237]

>...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You might express you outrage to this irresponsible act to

>> >> I did. Now to sit back and see their spin on the stupidity.
>> >>
>> > In spite of getting caught with their hands in the proverbial cookie
>> >jar,
>> >NBC still felt the need to stir the pot. See their Aug. 13 article here
>> >titled:
>> >"FBI: Al-Qaida could use helicopters, limos"
>> >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5626850/ .
>> >
>> >Which offers the following flight of fancy: "...Helicopters might also be
>> >used
>> >to spread chemical or biological agents in the ventilation systems of
>> >high-rise
>> >buildings..."
>> >
>> > They did not have the professional ethics or common decency to bother
>> >mentioning the 100% relevant fact that they had tried to penetrate a
>> >helicopter
>> >operation and failed miserably.
>> >
>> > No polite term could possible describe my feelings for NBC right now.
>I
>> >guess I will just have to settle for "****ing Lying Scumbags".
>> >
>> >Vaughn
>> >
>>
>> The media, not just NBC, quit simply reporting the news many years ago.
>They
>> are no longer content to simply report, they will stop at nothing to help
>> create the news when it suits their purpose. I was a personal witness to
>the
>> news media paying to instigate a race riot in Houston in the late sixties.
>> There are many additional examples if you just scratch the surface of our
>> "news" entertainment media.
>>
>>
>> Bob Reed
>> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>>
>> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>
>I find it passing strange that I have seen/heard no reports of this
>incident by any news agency except for the cite. Couldn't possibly be
>that the media doesn't want to point fingers at other media??
>
>Harry K
>

Not too strange, representatives of all the local media were present and knew
what was going on. A couple of the local anchors received national coverage
from the event and one went on to become a national anchor. Even when some in
the media are caught with their pants down, the other media will effectively
ignore or downplay the event. You will never see any media outlet do an
exposure on another media outfit. It just isn't done.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)