Tow rope musings - informal survey

[son_of_flubber]

What is the initial new length of the tow ropes that you use?

Assuming that you cut off the worn portion near the ring and gradually shorten the rope, when does the rope get too short to use? How often do you measure the rope?

Do you usually discard used ropes because of visible wear, reduced length, or a fixed number of tows?

What is the breaking strength of your tow rope when new?

Some gliders are heavier and some are lighter. Do you use weak links as recommended by the individual glider's POH?

Answering as an individual pilot you prefer a tow rope that is at the weak or strong end of the acceptable range?

Is it true that some people have used (and continue to use) 'unbreakable' tow ropes? How does that work out?

[Roy B.]

The regulation regarding maximum tow rope strength is primarily an American gliding phenomenon. In most other countries such a regulation does not exist and big thick ropes are used all the time and without difficulty.
ROY

[John Bridge[_2_]]

At 00:47 26 February 2019, son_of_flubber wrote:
>What is the initial new length of the tow ropes that you use?
>
>Assuming that you cut off the worn portion near the ring and gradually
>shorten the rope, when does the rope get too short to use?

How short would you like?
https://tinyurl.com/y47qmknr

John

[John Bridge[_2_]]

At 00:47 26 February 2019, son_of_flubber wrote:
>What is the initial new length of the tow ropes that you use?
>
>Assuming that you cut off the worn portion near the ring and gradually
>shorten the rope, when does the rope get too short to use?

How short would you like?
https://tinyurl.com/y47qmknr

John

[[email protected]]

Hi Roy, the BGA operational regulations specify an aerotow rope or weak linking breaking load no greater than the maximum specified by the glider or tug manufacturer.
John

[Z Goudie[_2_]]

At 08:05 26 February 2019, John Bridge wrote:

>https://tinyurl.com/y47qmknr

Do you think they both had a good grip on the release knobs?

[Cookie]

LOL!

Big beautiful (expensive) airport
Beautiful (expensive) glider
Beautiful (expensive) tow plane
Beautiful (expensive) ground crew
Cheapass rope

Ya gotta control costs somewhere!


Cookie



On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:00:05 AM UTC-5, Z Goudie wrote:
> At 08:05 26 February 2019, John Bridge wrote:
>
> >https://tinyurl.com/y47qmknr
>
> Do you think they both had a good grip on the release knobs?

[Cookie]

We consider 200' tow rope as "normal". I make 'em about 220' to start, figuring we can cut down the glider end as it gets worn.

In practice, about when the glider end is looking worn, so is the rest of the rope...so we just replace the entire rope with new.

Old rope is demoted to lessor duties, dogs and small children...

In the grand scheme of things, rope cost is insignificant

I've made a couple of x - country tows with a double rope (400')...pure luxury!


Cookie






On Monday, February 25, 2019 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> What is the initial new length of the tow ropes that you use?
>
> Assuming that you cut off the worn portion near the ring and gradually shorten the rope, when does the rope get too short to use? How often do you measure the rope?
>
> Do you usually discard used ropes because of visible wear, reduced length, or a fixed number of tows?
>
> What is the breaking strength of your tow rope when new?
>
> Some gliders are heavier and some are lighter. Do you use weak links as recommended by the individual glider's POH?
>
> Answering as an individual pilot you prefer a tow rope that is at the weak or strong end of the acceptable range?
>
> Is it true that some people have used (and continue to use) 'unbreakable' tow ropes? How does that work out?

[Retting]

I have my Russian wife pull me 3-5 ft after hook-up to test. I figure that ought to work. Plus no more than 3 knots, not counting the rings. My tow pilot Bueally has cataracts and is unable to read the instruments. He flys by the seat of his Depends. Poor feller. Not long for this world.
Guess I’ll throw the wife in the towplane, get a new rope, and teach my pet monkey to hook me up....just have to fly alone....and pull the release myself.
A new rope would be nice and a bit more safer.
Oh, I use 126’ of 1/4� clothes line, 37’ of mule hemp, and 12’ of lamp chain on the towplane end with a cleavage hitch..
Can’t wait for my new Arcus T.
R

[Edward Bittenbender]

At 09:43 26 February 2019, wrote:
>Hi Roy, the BGA operational regulations specify an aerotow rope or weak
>linking breaking load no greater than the maximum specified by the glider
>or tug manufacturer.
>John
>

The UK Air Navigation Order has the following provision:

The length of the combination of towing aircraft, tow rope, and article in
tow, must not exceed 150 metres (492 feet).





Ed

[Matt Herron (Sr)]

My first launch in Lithuania last October was certainly no more than fifty feet behind the tow plane. I found it possible, but extremely difficult to stay in sync with the tow.
I was told the short line was standard there because it allows for retrieves from short fields.
In deference to my American ways, they added considerable length to the tow line for all subsequent launches.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 2:28:10 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron (Sr) wrote:
> My first launch in Lithuania last October was certainly no more than fifty feet behind the tow plane. I found it possible, but extremely difficult to stay in sync with the tow.
> I was told the short line was standard there because it allows for retrieves from short fields.
> In deference to my American ways, they added considerable length to the tow line for all subsequent launches.

You'd think they'd reserve the ultra-short ropes for short-field retrieves ONLY?

[Dave Walsh[_2_]]

Just watched an American (PBS) film on "German transport aircraft
of WW2"; it had some interesting footage of THREE Heinkel 111's
(just) launching a truly massive transport glider......
Interesting to speculate on who was in control of that launch!
Dave Walsh

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 23:57:53 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

> Just watched an American (PBS) film on "German transport aircraft of
> WW2"; it had some interesting footage of THREE Heinkel 111's (just)
> launching a truly massive transport glider...... Interesting to
> speculate on who was in control of that launch! Dave Walsh

An Me-321 Gigant, but initial tests used a Ju-90 and then three Me-110s
to tow them. Improvements were needed and two were made:

1) Use an He-111Z (two He-111s stuck together side-by-side with a 5th
engine fitted on the centre line where the cut-down inner wings joined.
This never seems to have been much good.

2) Fit 6 1160 hp radial engines made in the captured Gnome et Rhone
factory and call the result an Me-323 Gigant. They flew well enough, but
were slow and poorly defended, making them easy meat for the RAF
operating from Malta when they were used to supply Rommel's Afrika-Corps


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[George Haeh]

The "Troika Schlepp" incurred considerable tow pilot attrition.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 1:36:53 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 2:28:10 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron (Sr) wrote:
> > My first launch in Lithuania last October was certainly no more than fifty feet behind the tow plane. I found it possible, but extremely difficult to stay in sync with the tow.
> > I was told the short line was standard there because it allows for retrieves from short fields.
> > In deference to my American ways, they added considerable length to the tow line for all subsequent launches.
>
> You'd think they'd reserve the ultra-short ropes for short-field retrieves ONLY?

If the difference between a 20m rope and 60m rope is going to make any significant difference to the takeoff then I'm going to be calling for the car and trailer in any case!

[Tony[_5_]]

Have you seen Lithuanian cars and trailers?

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:05:39 AM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> Have you seen Lithuanian cars and trailers?

No, but I've seen the top of a windbreak hedge a lot closer than I liked, and that was at the end of a 1000m long field. I don't believe 30 or 40 metres of tow rope length would make any appreciable difference, compared to the variability of wind, slope, and soft surface.

To be fair, the tow pilot held it in ground effect for a long time, so when he did eventually climb over the windbreak it was with speed in hand.

[[email protected]]

I make our tow ropes about 210' long, out of 3/8" hollow-braid poly (bought through W&W because for some reason the local businesses that sell rope around here consider it a waste of time to sell us four 1,000' spools of rope, prepaid). The ropes are used for one season maximum. We are on a nice, lush grass field and the ropes seldom need to have the ends cut and remade from abrasion. Any rope that looks suspect gets taken out of service. When we have an away trip to a paved field I take the rope that was used for towing there out of service when it returns because by then the combination of the wear it has received during flying at ho,e combined with the wear on the paved runway make it questionable enough that I would rather replace it. We have a set of weak links for the gliders we tow (club and private both Tost and Schweizer rings). The L-19 towplanes have Tost hooks.

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 2:11:34 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I make our tow ropes about 210' long, out of 3/8" hollow-braid poly (bought through W&W because for some reason the local businesses that sell rope around here consider it a waste of time to sell us four 1,000' spools of rope, prepaid). The ropes are used for one season maximum. We are on a nice, lush grass field and the ropes seldom need to have the ends cut and remade from abrasion. Any rope that looks suspect gets taken out of service. When we have an away trip to a paved field I take the rope that was used for towing there out of service when it returns because by then the combination of the wear it has received during flying at ho,e combined with the wear on the paved runway make it questionable enough that I would rather replace it. We have a set of weak links for the gliders we tow (club and private both Tost and Schweizer rings). The L-19 towplanes have Tost hooks.

PM sent. Interested in your L-19 Tost hook installation.

best,
Evan

[Matt Herron (Sr)]

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:05:39 AM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> Have you seen Lithuanian cars and trailers?

I can't speak for Lithuanian cars, but I did take a good look at the LAK glider trailers, and I was very impressed with the quality. I think they're probably the equivalent of a Cobra.

Since the MiniLAK I purchased comes with a trailer, I'll probably have a better opinion later this year when I've towed the beast back from Texas.

[kirk.stant]

I read somewhere (old Soaring?) about extremely short (as in a couple of meters) tow ropes being used to aero retrieve out of dusty, plowed fields; the idea is that you are so close to the tow plane you can't get out of position, and close enough to see the towplane in the dust kicked up by the launch!

Having done a couple of IFR takeoffs 200 ft behind a Pawnee out of western US dirt strips, I can see the appeal of it!

Kirk
66

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

IFR.....= I Follow Rope?

LOL......

[Dan Marotta]

I've owned both Cobra and LAK trailers.Â* My opinion is that they're
pretty close to equal.Â* Given the choice, I'd go with the less
expensive, most likely the LAK.

On 2/28/2019 10:53 AM, Matt Herron (Sr) wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:05:39 AM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
>> Have you seen Lithuanian cars and trailers?
> I can't speak for Lithuanian cars, but I did take a good look at the LAK glider trailers, and I was very impressed with the quality. I think they're probably the equivalent of a Cobra.
>
> Since the MiniLAK I purchased comes with a trailer, I'll probably have a better opinion later this year when I've towed the beast back from Texas.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 8:05:21 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 2:11:34 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I make our tow ropes about 210' long, out of 3/8" hollow-braid poly (bought through W&W because for some reason the local businesses that sell rope around here consider it a waste of time to sell us four 1,000' spools of rope, prepaid). The ropes are used for one season maximum. We are on a nice, lush grass field and the ropes seldom need to have the ends cut and remade from abrasion. Any rope that looks suspect gets taken out of service. When we have an away trip to a paved field I take the rope that was used for towing there out of service when it returns because by then the combination of the wear it has received during flying at ho,e combined with the wear on the paved runway make it questionable enough that I would rather replace it. We have a set of weak links for the gliders we tow (club and private both Tost and Schweizer rings). The L-19 towplanes have Tost hooks.
>
> PM sent. Interested in your L-19 Tost hook installation.
>
> best,
> Evan

" is likely a throw away email address. Any idea who this is? I'm very keen to find someone with a decently engineered and 337'ed tost hook installation for L-19.

-Evan

[Matt Herron (Sr)]

You may "see" the appeal of it, but believe me, actually seeing the tug almost on top of you is far less appealing. It's a handful!
>
> Having done a couple of IFR takeoffs 200 ft behind a Pawnee out of western US dirt strips, I can see the appeal of it!
>
> Kirk
> 66

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 11:03:29 AM UTC-6, Matt Herron (Sr) wrote:
> You may "see" the appeal of it, but believe me, actually seeing the tug almost on top of you is far less appealing. It's a handful!

I respectfully disagree - close formation is no big deal (true, I have a military background) but taking off in a zero-visibility dust cloud, where you can't see the towplane, tow rope, ground, horizon, anything - now that is exciting!

All you can do is wait until you have flying speed and pull up out of the dust, hoping your wings are level the whole time...

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[CindyB[_2_]]

IFR in dust..... peek alternately at your wingtips. If you learn to use your neck vertebrae in general to turn your personal nose, and leave the glider nose on track, you will find you can see LATERALLY quite well and keep tips level. There will be naysayers re: this heresy, but my students can do this. When they subsequently hear tales of 'thought I was gonna die', they slant eyeballs to me, and grin. This works for knowing level on takeoffs. It also works for peeking at tips on landings. It allows us to know how low you can place that windward tip toward earth on honking crosswind landings, or taxiing tips over obstructions. Oh....this was about ropes. 215' of hollowbraid 3/8 poly on dirt/pavement. We put both style rings on the glider end, no adapter chasing hunting. Retire after one end has been shortened maybe twice. Subjective retirement....I know. No unscheduled failures.

[[email protected]]

Im with Cindy, Ive done at least dozen ifr retrieves over the years and keeping wings level was never the issue, and following the towplane, well thats IFR, I follow rope. Just like the yawstring small early corrections and as soon as your flying pop up to 20' feet and voila there is the towplane! On a 200' rope your not hurting the tuggie at 20'!

CH

[john firth]

On Monday, February 25, 2019 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> What is the initial new length of the tow ropes that you use?
>
> Assuming that you cut off the worn portion near the ring and gradually shorten the rope, when does the rope get too short to use? How often do you measure the rope?
>
> Do you usually discard used ropes because of visible wear, reduced length, or a fixed number of tows?
>
> What is the breaking strength of your tow rope when new?
>
> Some gliders are heavier and some are lighter. Do you use weak links as recommended by the individual glider's POH?
>
> Answering as an individual pilot you prefer a tow rope that is at the weak or strong end of the acceptable range?
>
> Is it true that some people have used (and continue to use) 'unbreakable' tow ropes? How does that work out?

What ever happened to the idea of attaching a plastic funnel to the
glider end. When I was a CTP, this was introduced for two rreasons.
1. It holds the end maybe 10-15 ft higher over the trees/road.
2. it eliminates wear at the ring .

3. It will be nixed by the finance dept. owing to the high cost
of funnels.

I know when I'm beaten.
JMF

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, March 6, 2019 at 2:00:13 PM UTC-5, CindyB wrote:
> IFR in dust..... peek alternately at your wingtips. If you learn to use your neck vertebrae in general to turn your personal nose, and leave the glider nose on track, you will find you can see LATERALLY quite well and keep tips level. There will be naysayers re: this heresy, but my students can do this. When they subsequently hear tales of 'thought I was gonna die', they slant eyeballs to me, and grin. This works for knowing level on takeoffs. It also works for peeking at tips on landings. It allows us to know how low you can place that windward tip toward earth on honking crosswind landings, or taxiing tips over obstructions. Oh....this was about ropes. 215' of hollowbraid 3/8 poly on dirt/pavement. We put both style rings on the glider end, no adapter chasing hunting. Retire after one end has been shortened maybe twice. Subjective retirement....I know. No unscheduled failures.

I like looking to the sides (wingtips) at times, but apparently that's a controversial idea. Years ago I got scolded by an instructor (in a "Cezzna") when I looked sideways to gauge the height above the runway in the landing roundout. I guess for some people that may induce unintended motions in the hand holding the control stick/yoke. But perhaps it only needs practice.. I certainly rubberneck on my bicycle, without affecting the steering. And in a gaggle this is a necessary skill.

[[email protected]]

Try landing a Pitts Special without looking to the side. Who knows where you'll end up?

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 12:03:29 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron (Sr) wrote:
> You may "see" the appeal of it, but believe me, actually seeing the tug almost on top of you is far less appealing. It's a handful!
> >
> > Having done a couple of IFR takeoffs 200 ft behind a Pawnee out of western US dirt strips, I can see the appeal of it!
> >
> > Kirk
> > 66

I also disagree. I flew a lot in dual tow formation early in life, including aero retrieves from far away airports. Flying in the 1st position on dual tow for 90 min is not difficult, it requires discipline and training. I am sure you would be fine after 10 tows if you received appropriate training.