Waxing and polishing

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Since winter is nearly ending and I'm doing final adjustments to my glider, I was wondering. Is it interesting to wax and polish it? I've seen a set of products here: https://www.theaerodyne.com/gb/care-cleaning/188-basic-kit-for-glider-care.html

D-1339

[[email protected]]

I've used the Prist canopy cleaner and I don't like it. The Plexus product seems to be a better cleaner. I don't know about the other stuff.

My local composite shop mocks his dentist. "He does'nt really care, he's really glad to see you brush your teeth"

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 1:07:29 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I've used the Prist canopy cleaner and I don't like it. The Plexus product seems to be a better cleaner. I don't know about the other stuff.
>
> My local composite shop mocks his dentist. "He does'nt really care, he's really glad to see you brush your teeth"

I have had the exact opposite experience. Prist windo clearner works great, Plexus leaves a film and can't be cleaned off.

[joesimmers[_2_]]

I have had great luck with Plexus, I use either super clean or
brand new microfiber towels only for buffing it out.

If canopy is really dirty clean with pure water first
then use Plexus.

I hate dirty canopy's.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Would it be advised to do the entire glider or just wings/tail?

[joesimmers[_2_]]

Senna have you heard about hard waxing? Using a rotary
buffing wheel and a block of hard wax to do the entire glider
minus the canopy.

Also good stuff is the 2 part WX Block and Seal
available from wings and wheels.

The Plexus is for the canopy only not the glider itself it
looks like this thread drifted.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op zondag 3 maart 2019 15:30:26 UTC+1 schreef joesimmers:
> Senna have you heard about hard waxing? Using a rotary
> buffing wheel and a block of hard wax to do the entire glider
> minus the canopy.
>
> Also good stuff is the 2 part WX Block and Seal
> available from wings and wheels.
>
> The Plexus is for the canopy only not the glider itself it
> looks like this thread drifted.

To be honest, never done it or had it done on a car or glider, I bought my DG 101 last year and want it to stay in great condition and stumbled upon that care kit with waxing and polishing products and thought it might be worth the effort :)

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

In general, a decent washing (I use a car specific wash, dish soap is usually harsh and tends to strip wax) and almost any car wax is better than nothing.
Better is once a year or so, a light sanding (say.....1500grit wet or higher) followed by a machine applied hard wax is more betterer......
Pretty much anything to help seal the surface is decent.
Granted, some wing profiles (PIK-20, SGS-1-35, etc.) don't really want wax since it causes water to bead which kills the L/D. Fly in rain, drop the gear......

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 03 Mar 2019 09:45:02 -0800, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> To be honest, never done it or had it done on a car or glider, I bought
> my DG 101 last year and want it to stay in great condition and stumbled
> upon that care kit with waxing and polishing products and thought it
> might be worth the effort :)
>
I, and other pilots at my club, used to use Mer car polish, but
apparently its now a non-starter because recently they've been adding
silicone to the mixture. The polish in blue containers did not use
silicone but the more recent polishes in black containers all include it
in their ingredient lists.

I've been told to never use silicone based polish because it is said to
make repairs to fibreglass or carbon structures very difficult or
impossible to repair.

In fact I remember reading that here, so it must be true!

OTOH I've not seen any publications that mention the effect of silicone
contamination on repairability. The only article on repairing FRP
structures I've seen, in a search I just carried out, that even mentions
contamination in any detail is:

https://compositesuk.co.uk/system/files/documents/
repairoffrpstructures.pdf

It has a short section about contamination (half a page in a 33 page PDF
document) that mentions "fuel, oil, hydraulic fluid, etc" and moisture,
but says nothing about the perils of silicone-based polishes.

The other 2-3 publications my search turned up that didn't turn out to be
pushing supplier's products either did not mention contamination at all,
or gave no details apart from describing how to sand through surface
finish.

So, what's the deal?

Are silicone-containing polishes etc to be shunned?

Can anybody recommend an FRP repair publication that gives any more
details about dealing with contamination than the one I quoted above?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[BobW]

On 3/3/2019 12:08 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:

<Snip...>
>
> I've been told to never use silicone based polish because it is said to
> make repairs to fibreglass or carbon structures very difficult or
> impossible to repair.
>
> In fact I remember reading that here, so it must be true!
>
> OTOH I've not seen any publications that mention the effect of silicone
> contamination on repairability. The only article on repairing FRP
> structures I've seen, in a search I just carried out, that even mentions
> contamination in any detail is:
>
> https://compositesuk.co.uk/system/files/documents/
> repairoffrpstructures.pdf
>
> It has a short section about contamination (half a page in a 33 page PDF
> document) that mentions "fuel, oil, hydraulic fluid, etc" and moisture, but
> says nothing about the perils of silicone-based polishes.
>
> The other 2-3 publications my search turned up that didn't turn out to be
> pushing supplier's products either did not mention contamination at all, or
> gave no details apart from describing how to sand through surface finish.
>
> So, what's the deal?
>
> Are silicone-containing polishes etc to be shunned?
>
> Can anybody recommend an FRP repair publication that gives any more details
> about dealing with contamination than the one I quoted above?

Lordy, it must be winter in the northern hemisphere! :)

Certainly there's no harm in avoiding 'silicone-ingrediented' waxes, but IMO
'commonly-held views' on the subject border on religious arguments in that
'proof of one's beliefs' is rarely part of the discussion.

So while we're polling, let's not forget including FRP repair shops' inputs.
My own direct shop-input querying-experience - *not* repairs, sardonic chuckle
- includes a mere 3 (4 counting a long-ago RAS post by JJ Sinclair), and, so
far, each puts "Silicone = Bad!" into the urban myth category. Further, who
can point me toward an accident report involving structural failure of a
repaired FRP glider, that has 'fingered' silicone as a contributing factor?

N.B. For the disputatiously-inclined, I am NOT recommending spraying every
accessible surface of your bird with silicone spray (a little common sense can
go a long way), but rather positing that 'fretting over its presence in wax,'
arguably falls into the urban-myth/anally-self-inflicted worry category.

YMMV, of course...

Bob - last night's low -1 deg F. here - W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Dan Marotta]

I seem to recall asking Fidel about silicone in waxes.Â* He said not to
worry about it.

On 3/3/2019 2:59 PM, BobW wrote:
> On 3/3/2019 12:08 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
> <Snip...>
>>
>> I've been told to never use silicone based polish because it is said
>> to make repairs to fibreglass or carbon structures very difficult or
>> impossible to repair.
>>
>> In fact I remember reading that here, so it must be true!
>>
>> OTOH I've not seen any publications that mention the effect of
>> silicone contamination on repairability. The only article on
>> repairing FRP structures I've seen, in a search I just carried out,
>> that even mentions contamination in any detail is:
>>
>> https://compositesuk.co.uk/system/files/documents/
>> repairoffrpstructures.pdf
>>
>> It has a short section about contamination (half a page in a 33 page
>> PDF document) that mentions "fuel, oil, hydraulic fluid, etc" and
>> moisture, but
>> says nothing about the perils of silicone-based polishes.
>>
>> The other 2-3 publications my search turned up that didn't turn out
>> to be pushing supplier's products either did not mention
>> contamination at all, or
>> gave no details apart from describing how to sand through surface
>> finish.
>>
>> So, what's the deal?
>>
>> Are silicone-containing polishes etc to be shunned?
>>
>> Can anybody recommend an FRP repair publication that gives any more
>> details
>> about dealing with contamination than the one I quoted above?
>
> Lordy, it must be winter in the northern hemisphere! :)
>
> Certainly there's no harm in avoiding 'silicone-ingrediented' waxes,
> but IMO 'commonly-held views' on the subject border on religious
> arguments in that 'proof of one's beliefs' is rarely part of the
> discussion.
>
> So while we're polling, let's not forget including FRP repair shops'
> inputs. My own direct shop-input querying-experience - *not* repairs,
> sardonic chuckle - includes a mere 3 (4 counting a long-ago RAS post
> by JJ Sinclair), and, so far, each puts "Silicone = Bad!" into the
> urban myth category. Further, who can point me toward an accident
> report involving structural failure of a repaired FRP glider, that has
> 'fingered' silicone as a contributing factor?
>
> N.B. For the disputatiously-inclined, I am NOT recommending spraying
> every accessible surface of your bird with silicone spray (a little
> common sense can go a long way), but rather positing that 'fretting
> over its presence in wax,' arguably falls into the
> urban-myth/anally-self-inflicted worry category.
>
> YMMV, of course...
>
> Bob - last night's low -1 deg F. here - W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 03 Mar 2019 16:05:30 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

Thanks Dan and Bob. Noted for future reference.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

I also asked Fidel about silicone in wax. He held up an angle grinder with a sanding disc and said it was tougher than any silicone he's encountered. But he also recommended Carnauba wax for its sealing properties.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 2:18:24 PM UTC-6, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Since winter is nearly ending and I'm doing final adjustments to my glider, I was wondering. Is it interesting to wax and polish it? I've seen a set of products here: https://www.theaerodyne.com/gb/care-cleaning/188-basic-kit-for-glider-care.html
>
> D-1339

My glider is painted in arcylic urethane ... I clean it up and then use Glare polish.

https://www.glare.com/products?cid=Mg%3D%3D&pn=Aviation

Keeps it protected, nice and shiny.

Bob

[David Lessnick 51P]

I have not used any hard wax product for years on any of my vehicles (cars, planes, sailplanes etc).

I've been SUPER happy with JetShine from PERMANON. It's a bit expensive but takes almost ZERO effort to apply. The activating bonding ingredient is water and one just simply sprays it on a clean surface then wipes off the excess. It is "nano-technology" and protects the surface beautifully while protecting it from UV. After using this stuff for almost 10 years, I'd be hard pressed to ever go back to hard wax and buffing wheels!

https://jetshineusa.com

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op zaterdag 2 maart 2019 21:18:24 UTC+1 schreef Senna Van den Bosch:
> Since winter is nearly ending and I'm doing final adjustments to my glider, I was wondering. Is it interesting to wax and polish it? I've seen a set of products here: https://www.theaerodyne.com/gb/care-cleaning/188-basic-kit-for-glider-care.html
>
> D-1339

Going a bit off topic here, not really looking for materials or products, just want to know, is it worth it to wax and polish the glider? For example, keeping it in great condition, smooth and shiny? :)

[krasw]

On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 9:08:48 PM UTC+2, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Are silicone-containing polishes etc to be shunned?
>
> Can anybody recommend an FRP repair publication that gives any more
> details about dealing with contamination than the one I quoted above?
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I know at least one refinish of a glider that was ruined because removal of silicone from surfaces was not done properly. They had to sand and paint glider twice.

It is probably impossible to avoid silicon completely, many car waxes have it without any mention in specs. But if you have a chance of avoiding it, please do.

I wax my glider with hard paste-style Collinite. With normal "easy to apply"- fluid waxes (=most likely to have silicone) the wax wears off pretty fast from leading edges.

[Mike Smith]

At 09:44 04 March 2019, krasw wrote:
>On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 9:08:48 PM UTC+2, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> Are silicone-containing polishes etc to be shunned?
>>
>> Can anybody recommend an FRP repair publication that gives any more
>> details about dealing with contamination than the one I quoted above?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin | martin at
>> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
>I know at least one refinish of a glider that was ruined because removal
of
>silicone from surfaces was not done properly. They had to sand and paint
>glider twice.
>
>It is probably impossible to avoid silicon completely, many car waxes
have
>it without any mention in specs. But if you have a chance of avoiding it,
>please do.
>
>I wax my glider with hard paste-style Collinite. With normal "easy to
>apply"- fluid waxes (=most likely to have silicone) the wax wears off
>pretty fast from leading edges.

One of my chums has done some research on polishes.
Most polishes and waxes contain silicone, here are the one’s that
don’t. Most were checked by looking at the Safety Data Sheet.

Vistal Cleaning: “One boat cleaner�.
Boatsheen: “Best Brazilian boat wax� – carnauba wax blended into a
cream.
BulletPolish: “Carnauba Quick Spray wax� – a cleaner with wax but no
abrasives.
Yachtcare: “High gloss finish� – a polishing and waxing paste.
Starbrite: “Presoftened boat wax� – based on carnauba wax but
softened for hand application.
Starbrite: “Marine polish� – polishes and waxes (Carnauba not
mentioned).
Starbrite: “Hull cleaner�. (NB Premium and products with PTEF contain
silicone.)

The 3M products Perfect-it Light cutting Polish & Wax and Perfect-it Boat
Wax both contain silicone. Meguiars Boat/RV pure wax contains silicone,
don’t know about Meguiars Flagship Marine wax.

Putting the company name into Google finds all of the above.

From the above info the Starbrite range or the Vistal Cleaning “One boat
cleaner� with Boatsheen “Best Brazilian boat wax� look attractive. I
guess the only way to evaluate them is try them?

(I use the Vistal product on my LS8 and Cobra trailer to clean the surfaces
prior to polishing and it works really well.)

Hope this helps. Mike

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

In a round about way, people are saying, "yes it's worth waxing your sailplane". They do this by stating what they use to do it.

[[email protected]]

Does anyone have any experience with the F11 product marketed in the US for cars and boats. Their website says it is silicone free.

https://www.ducora.com/index.php/topcoat-products/f11-polish-sealer

[Mike Smith]

At 12:41 04 March 2019, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
>In a round about way, people are saying, "yes it's worth waxing your
>sailplane". They do this by stating what they use to do it.

It really is worth waxing your sailplane (and trailer). Helps to keep out
the UV. I soft wax was mine 3 times each year. Not keen on hard waxing.
Mike

[Jonathon May]

At 20:10 04 March 2019, Mike Smith wrote:
>At 12:41 04 March 2019, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot
wrote:
>>In a round about way, people are saying, "yes it's worth
waxing your
>>sailplane". They do this by stating what they use to do it.
>
>It really is worth waxing your sailplane (and trailer). Helps to
keep ou
>the UV. I soft wax was mine 3 times each year. Not keen on
hard waxing
>Mike
>


If I am grid squatting just hanging around waiting for the
launches to start the fall back position is to get a cloth and bottle
of mer and polish the wings.It can't hurt ,might improve the
performance, and you can think about the coming task while your
hands do the work.

[joesimmers[_2_]]

> Going a bit off topic here, not really looking for materials or products, just want to know, is it worth it to wax and polish the glider? For example, keeping it in great condition, smooth and shiny? :)


It all depends, does resale value mean anything to you?

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 11:08:48 AM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> ...silicone...

Ahh, it's NFBSK'n springtime on RAS!

--Bob K.

[JB Gunner]

On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 10:15:22 PM UTC-6, David Lessnick 51P wrote:
> I have not used any hard wax product for years on any of my vehicles (cars, planes, sailplanes etc).
>
> I've been SUPER happy with JetShine from PERMANON. It's a bit expensive but takes almost ZERO effort to apply. The activating bonding ingredient is water and one just simply sprays it on a clean surface then wipes off the excess. It is "nano-technology" and protects the surface beautifully while protecting it from UV. After using this stuff for almost 10 years, I'd be hard pressed to ever go back to hard wax and buffing wheels!
>
> https://jetshineusa.com

which product from their line do you use?

[Roy B.]

Going a bit off topic here, not really looking for materials or products, just want to know, is it worth it to wax and polish the glider? For example, keeping it in great condition, smooth and shiny? :)

Senna:
I have had good luck with the finish on all of my gliders. I have always done the entire glider surface twice each year (with Carnuba wax) being especially careful to apply a good coat of wax at the areas where I use tape. The Schleicher Flight Manual states : "It is recommended that appropriate areas should be thoroughly waxed beforehand so that the adhesive tape can afterwards be cleanly removed without lifting the paint finish."
It is easiest to apply wax to underside of the wings when they are stored in the trailer with the fuselage removed.
ROY

[[email protected]]

> It is easiest to apply wax to underside of the wings when they are stored in the trailer with the fuselage removed.
> ROY

No, it is easiest to apply wax to the underside of the wings when they are upside down on sawhorses in a heated hangar. Same for the bottom of the fuselage. Try it!

[Tim Taylor]

Not to derail the discussion, had there been any examples of using the new ceramic finishes on gel coat?

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Dredging up an older thread on polishing.

My question is *NOT* about the polish to use but what *POLISHER* to use. There seems to be three-ish choices;

1) Using sweat and hands (of you or others) - $0
2) Using an electric single head polisher - $50 (no name) up to $200 (name brand Dewalt, Wen, etc)
3) Using an electric dual head (random orbital) polisher - $100 (no name brand) up to $400 (Cyclo brand variable speed)

Your thoughts? Speed to use?

Thanks, John "Thinking Spring" OHM Ω

[[email protected]]

lol, Im sure people will chime in but I use the cheapest variable speed single head polisher I can find: IE a harbor frieght pos! The key is to make sure when getting close to anything you may "catch" with the pad is to go slow and always away from the edge. That includes seals flap/ aileron junctions, mylar ect. It definetly takes alittle practice and vigilance, heavy on the vigilance :) Good luck :)

[[email protected]]

I forget to mention, go to a good auto paint/body place and buy the best wool pads for your size polisher. Treated and cleaned regularly they will outlast your sailplane :)

[Tim Taylor]

Porter-Cable is the standard. Here is a good list.

https://www.garagetooladvisor.com/auto/best-car-buffer/

[[email protected]]

A couple suggestions.
First, place painters tape over all control seal edges. Consider doing the same where your gap sealing tape will be placed because with some waxes the gap tape will not stick.

A lot of the people on this forum are not very contemporary with modern equipment. Use google to look at car detailing videos. Especially regarding polishers. Virtually the whole world is using dual action machines, or as they are called, DA machines. Dual action machines almost eliminate the risk of hot spots or burning of the surface from using too much pressure for too long in one spot.

Also, virtually everyone is using foam pads, not wool. Wool is great but one grain of sand in that pad and you ruin your surface. Foams pads come in a selection of hardnesses that are matched to the grit of the polishing compound. You should also look at what a "clay bar" is.

Rupes is one of the gold standards for DA polishers. They have a whole system of pads and polishes that produce AMAZING RESULTS.

A good single site is THE CHEMICAL GUYS.

[krasw]

It seems the process of either polishing or coating (waxing) is confused here.

Polishing is where you actually sand few microns of your gelcoat/paint off by applying abrasive liquid with rotating pad. What kind of tool, pad or abrasive to use depends your paint and it's condition. Ask 10 detailers and you get 10 different answers.

Coating is applying protective chemical, usually wax, to polished surface. It's meant to protect it, not polish it. Never seen any detailer apply coating with power tools.

Some waxes have abrasive component, so you end up trying to polish a bit in a process of waxing. These are your most common waxes sold everywhere. They do pretty bad job in coating and polishing.

Clay is for removing contaminants that are stuck in the paint. I cannot imagine road dirt contaminating glider so bad to use it.

Important thing is to know if you want to polish or wax your glider and get proper tools for that. Wax is something you want to be always present on the paint surface. Polishing is not required every time you wax the glider.