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son_of_flubber
March 5th 19, 10:37 PM
I would like to review the several ways that a handoff of control can go awry.

Here's my best botched handoff, so far (knock on wood).

I was flying with an instructor in the backseat. A very strong quartering crosswind had blown up while we were in the air. Last flight of the day, so I was planning to stop a bit past the launch point (closer to the hangar). There was a group of people standing abeam the launch point.

I had started to round out ~15 feet above the ground, with an extreme crab and (it seemed) pointed right at the group of people. Due to the crosswind, ground speed was very slow. The grass field and the slow ground speed made it difficult to judge the ground track and the offset from the crowd.

Instructor says 'My aircraft', slams the spoilers shut, and pushes the nose down, then says 'Your aircraft'. WTF? Landed okay. We laughed. Instructor says, 'yeah... I should have finished the flare. Sorry.'.

Other examples of botched handoffs?

WB
March 6th 19, 03:24 PM
I won't name names, but once upon a time I watched two extremely experienced and competent pilots fly a Grob 103 right off the end of the landing area at CCSC and into head high weeds and brush. Both thought the other was flying. Not sure where the handoff was botched since the glider flew a normal looking pattern and approach. Took the rest of the day to get the milkweed sap off the canopy and nose of the glider.

March 6th 19, 03:58 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VQGFLxadGiM

March 6th 19, 04:12 PM
I was teaching my son to fly and on one of his early landings, he lined up between the taxiway and the runway! I said something like, “let me help you a little” and ruddered us over to the runway then turned loose of the stick thinking he would finish the landing. He thought I was still flying, so.............nobody was flying! I thought that Grob would never stop bouncing. The G-103 twin two has one hell of a strong gear!
Lesson learned, ever sense, I have used what I learned in the USAF where I say, “I’ve got it “ and shake the stick! If I’m giving control to you, I say “ you’ve got it and YOU shake the stick! Shaking the stick let’s both pilots know the other guy is on the controlls before you get off. I believe this situation could be what allowed the aircraft to get so out of control in a recent Duo accident.
Food for thought,
JJ

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
March 6th 19, 05:09 PM
Agreed.

I only have about 8 years as a CFI-G, I have had to intervene a few times.
While others are flying, a control nudge with a "I'm helping" and a discussion later or, "my glider/sailplane/ship" possibly followed by a wait for, "your ship.......I have it".
When close to my margins, I may not wait for a "your ship" before doing pilot stuff.

Yes, goal as a senior pilot (commercial pilot on a ride letting a newb fly, CFI letting a student get over their head), my comment to any other pilot is....."I will let you get over your head, I will NEVER let you get over my head.".

I consider myself the PIC, my goal, do what is required, be prepared to explain if something gets bent/broken to the FAA.

waremark
March 6th 19, 07:29 PM
As an instructor, if I have had control any time on the approach or later, I will never give back control - we are now in a critical phase of flight and the student won't have time to settle himself properly.

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
March 6th 19, 08:57 PM
If you get into, "oh poop" and take over, I will say.....your choice of handing it back. But......must have a definitive "your ship" followed by a, "my ship"..,.....otherwise, still YOUR ship even if you didn't state it but made it sorta clear by yanking controls.
Still comes down to.....PIC is in charge of the flight........sudden stuff may make it hard to do a formal control handoff.
Your goal as PIC is ensure a safe outcome....discussion/argument can happen after any landing and you walk away.

****er is when 2 highly rated pilots in the ship. One thinks it's OK, one is scared.......welp.....get on the ground (hopefully safely).....then discuss.....maybe a few beers are required......hopefully no police involved.......;-)

March 7th 19, 03:39 PM
I took a fellow glider rated airline pilot for an aerobatic ride in an Extra 300L one day. On the way back to the airport I asked him to take the controls so I could tune the radio and get ATIS, we did the full positive exchange of controls routine. As we descended past the cloud bases the usual turbulence began. That's when Joe began a series of poor quality aileron rolls.. "What are you doing to me I'm heads down back here? Keep it level!" I exclaimed.
"I thought you were doing that!" He responded.
The Extra has neutral roll stability and when we flew through the turbulence the airplane began to roll as a reaction to the displacement and just kept going! My buddy thought I was having fun messing with him I guess. In hind sight I should have explained the consequences of the lack of stability in the airplane.

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
March 7th 19, 10:51 PM
No.......pre flight, explain the exchange of control.
From your post.......he had his head up his butt.....but only going by your post......

Part of why I like a 2-33, when the fronter does something stupid/not agreed apon, you can still smack them upside the head.....
When in doubt, choke them out so YOU don't die!

March 8th 19, 01:07 AM
On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 at 4:37:48 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I would like to review the several ways that a handoff of control can go awry.
>
> Here's my best botched handoff, so far (knock on wood).
>
> I was flying with an instructor in the backseat. A very strong quartering crosswind had blown up while we were in the air. Last flight of the day, so I was planning to stop a bit past the launch point (closer to the hangar). There was a group of people standing abeam the launch point.
>
> I had started to round out ~15 feet above the ground, with an extreme crab and (it seemed) pointed right at the group of people. Due to the crosswind, ground speed was very slow. The grass field and the slow ground speed made it difficult to judge the ground track and the offset from the crowd.
>
> Instructor says 'My aircraft', slams the spoilers shut, and pushes the nose down, then says 'Your aircraft'. WTF? Landed okay. We laughed. Instructor says, 'yeah... I should have finished the flare. Sorry.'.
>
> Other examples of botched handoffs?

Back in Germany a student didn't make progress with his instructor, he got nothing but criticism on his patterns. After one flight he got and laughed for 10 min. Told us he'd had it with all the crud he got from the back seat and, on downwind, just let go of the stick. Low and behold, the glider made a nice turn to base and then to final. The airbrakes came out for a perfect landing. "See, his instructor said proudly, you finally got it."
Herb

Z Goudie[_2_]
March 8th 19, 11:00 AM
At 01:07 08 March 2019, wrote:

>Back in Germany a student didn't make progress with his instructor, he
got
>=
>nothing but criticism on his patterns. After one flight he got and
laughed
>=
>for 10 min. Told us he'd had it with all the crud he got from the back
>seat=
> and, on downwind, just let go of the stick. Low and behold, the glider
>mad=
>e a nice turn to base and then to final. The airbrakes came out for a
>perfe=
>ct landing. "See, his instructor said proudly, you finally got it."
>Herb

Seen instructors like that before!

Tim Newport-Peace[_4_]
March 8th 19, 02:31 PM
At 11:00 08 March 2019, Z Goudie wrote:
>At 01:07 08 March 2019, wrote:
>
>>Back in Germany a student didn't make progress with his instructor, h
>got
>>=
>>nothing but criticism on his patterns. After one flight he got an
>laughed
>>=
>>for 10 min. Told us he'd had it with all the crud he got from the back
>>seat=
>> and, on downwind, just let go of the stick. Low and behold, the glider
>>mad=
>>e a nice turn to base and then to final. The airbrakes came out for a
>>perfe=
>>ct landing. "See, his instructor said proudly, you finally got it."
>>Herb
>
>Seen instructors like that before!
>
>
I know of a case like that in UK a while ago.

Pupil refused to pay for flight (reasonable) and Instructor is no longer
instructing.

Peter Purdie[_3_]
March 8th 19, 05:17 PM
Just as important to know who is flying before you take off. Many
years ago on a bungee-launching hill expedition, I watched two
pilots climb into a Ka7 with the instructor briefing the pupil as they
strapped in. As the glider rolled forward the wing went down and it
gracefully ground looped downhill, bending the fuselage at 90
degrees in the process. Instructor leapt out saying 'Why didn't you
pick up the wing?' Pupil: 'I thought you were flying.'

They then went into a huddle to get the story straight for the
accident report....

At 14:31 08 March 2019, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
>At 11:00 08 March 2019, Z Goudie wrote:
>>At 01:07 08 March 2019, wrote:
>>
>>>Back in Germany a student didn't make progress with his
instructor, h
>>got
>>>=
>>>nothing but criticism on his patterns. After one flight he got an
>>laughed
>>>=
>>>for 10 min. Told us he'd had it with all the crud he got from the
back
>>>seat=
>>> and, on downwind, just let go of the stick. Low and behold, the
glider
>>>mad=
>>>e a nice turn to base and then to final. The airbrakes came out
for a
>>>perfe=
>>>ct landing. "See, his instructor said proudly, you finally got it."
>>>Herb
>>
>>Seen instructors like that before!
>>
>>
>I know of a case like that in UK a while ago.
>
>Pupil refused to pay for flight (reasonable) and Instructor is no
longe
>instructing.
>
>
>

Charlie Quebec
March 12th 19, 08:22 AM
A very experienced instructor told me a story once where he and another very experienced instructor
ended up doing 3 tail slides when both thought the other was Flying. Both were Aust level 3 instructors, which are those who train instructors.
It can happen to the best of use. Personally, I strictly follow the my aircraft/your aircraft protocol, but everyone makes mistakes.

Z Goudie[_2_]
March 12th 19, 09:38 AM
At 01:07 08 March 2019, wrote:

>Back in Germany a student didn't make progress with his instructor, he
got
>=
>nothing but criticism on his patterns. After one flight he got and
laughed
>=
>for 10 min. Told us he'd had it with all the crud he got from the back
>seat=
> and, on downwind, just let go of the stick. Low and behold, the glider
>mad=
>e a nice turn to base and then to final. The airbrakes came out for a
>perfe=
>ct landing. "See, his instructor said proudly, you finally got it."
>Herb

Seen instructors like that before!

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