Borgelt Dynamis variometer

[Mike Borgelt[_2_]]

Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
>
> Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
>
> Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
>
> The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
>
> The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
>
> Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
>
> Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
>
> After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
>
> We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
>
> I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
>
> Mike Borgelt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng


Mike,
Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle...
I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 3:12:38 PM UTC, wrote:
> On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> > Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
> >
> > Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> > Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
> >
> > Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
> >
> > The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> > (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
> >
> > The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
> >
> > Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
> >
> > Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
> >
> > After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
> >
> > We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
> >
> > I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
> >
> > Mike Borgelt
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng
>
>
> Mike,
> Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
> I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
> It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
> It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
> It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
> From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle...
> I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
> Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...

This earlier video shows a direct comparison between two B800s, with or without the Dynamis system. The differences are easier for me to see and there is an in flight commentary:

https://vimeo.com/206681292

[Mike Borgelt[_2_]]

On Sunday, 10 March 2019 01:12:38 UTC+10, wrote:
> On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> > Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
> >
> > Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> > Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
> >
> > Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
> >
> > The horizontal gust effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> > (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
> >
> > The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
> >
> > Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
> >
> > Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
> >
> > After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
> >
> > We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
> >
> > I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
> >
> > Mike Borgelt
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng
>
>
> Mike,
> Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
> I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
> It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
> It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
> It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
> From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle...
> I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
> Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...

The Dynamis vario has all the features of the B600/B800 systems which you can read about on our website at www.borgeltinstruments.com These are the result of 45 years of continuous effort at engineering and refining sailplane variometers.
The audio is common to all our variometer products just that there are added audio features on the more advanced varios. We don't get complaints about the audio but it is customizable. I discourage this.

Modern varios are an improvement over older ones and it is relatively easy to build vario sensors nowadays with the advent of high stability digital pressure sensors but all of these varios suffer the same problems. You can see this if you set a TE one up for relatively gentle climbs and dives and then go to 110+ knots and do a hard pullup. There are g effects. You can see these on the LX vario in the video. This topic may be a subject of an upcoming video.

Dynamis uses methods not used before in any total energy variometers, to my knowledge.
This is how we separate the vertical motion from the horizontal motion of the air. Variometers are meant to display vertical motion and changes thereof but conventional varios mix varying amounts of the horizontal unsteadiness of the air into the vertical variometer display. The gain of this mixing depends on the square of the TAS so the problem has become far worse as glider performance and cruising speeds increase and the spurious "noise" is now of magnitude comparable to signals you are looking for and occurs at the same frequencies so you cannot simply filter it out.

An analogy would be if your car speedometer had large random (non periodic) fluctuations imposed on the reading so that when driving in a 50 km/hr zone most of the fluctuations average around +/- 12 km/hour but they really are random and some are larger than this. How can you be sure that you are not exceeding the limit at any moment? Driving in a 100km/hour zone the speedo fluctuates by +/- 50 km/hour at random, with some larger and some smaller excursions. How can you tell if you can go faster or are risking a ticket?
This essentially describes all pre Dynamis variometers.

With good information you can make instant decisions about circling or not.
When I was competing I used to find that by the time I decided it was worth pulling up in, slowing down and starting to turn I had flown through the core. Then, complete 180 degree or so turn, fly back for 5 seconds or more and then start circling in the core. Sometimes works out better than that but mostly not. Costs about 20 seconds per thermal. Then, how often do you pull up and try to circle and there is nothing there but sink. You probably didn't just turn the wrong way but had encountered a significant gust on the nose. A wasted circle costs at least 30 seconds and up to a minute depending on the sink you encountered. Add these up over a 3 hour race.
Might be cheaper to buy Dynamis than a new glider!

[Mike Borgelt[_2_]]

I don't know how that video went public. It wasn't meant to. It was at Tocumwal during the Benalla Worlds in January 2017. I was in the back seat. The video editor did a great job cleaning up the commentary.

At the time Dynamis had some offset problems under some flight conditions. These are now eliminated as can be seen in the Quintus video where the LX vario and Dynamis agree on average.

On Monday, 11 March 2019 01:28:50 UTC+10, wrote:
> On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 3:12:38 PM UTC, wrote:
> > On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> > > Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
> > >
> > > Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> > > Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
> > >
> > > Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
> > >
> > > The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> > > (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
> > >
> > > The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
> > >
> > > Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
> > >
> > > Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
> > >
> > > After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
> > >
> > > We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
> > >
> > > I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
> > >
> > > Mike Borgelt
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> > Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
> > I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
> > It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
> > It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
> > It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
> > From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle....
> > I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
> > Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...
>
> This earlier video shows a direct comparison between two B800s, with or without the Dynamis system. The differences are easier for me to see and there is an in flight commentary:
>
> https://vimeo.com/206681292

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 8:56:07 PM UTC, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> I don't know how that video went public. It wasn't meant to. It was at Tocumwal during the Benalla Worlds in January 2017. I was in the back seat. The video editor did a great job cleaning up the commentary.
>
> At the time Dynamis had some offset problems under some flight conditions.. These are now eliminated as can be seen in the Quintus video where the LX vario and Dynamis agree on average.


Sorry if posting that link wasn't appropriate Mike, I just Googled "Borgelt Dynamis video" and found the video at the top of the page. It looks good to me!

Can you reveal some practical installation information? Is there an additional sensor box behind the panel and, if so, what size is it? Is there a compass sensor that would have implications for location and orientation? Is GPS input essential for the Dynamis to operate?

John Galloway

[Charlie Quebec]

No harm done Mike, the video does show the difference in response quite well. Ive been waiting for dynamis, it’s the reason I bought a B800 from you.
Well done mate!

[Gary Wayland]

"It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario."

The best vario sound I ever heard was the ILEC SB-8. It sounded like a Wurlitzer organ.

5 and 6 hours in the cockpit and it would not tire you. These single tone varios are better left on the quiet side...

If Mike is building one, you know it's going to be a great instrument...

Gary

"SQ"
ASW-27b

[[email protected]]

Would a more valid comparison be against the Butterfly/Air Avionics vario? I presume that is what you are intending to compete against.

[[email protected]]

The Butterfly Vario offers mixing in a pilot defined proportion of mems derived airmass input along with the probe pressure derived netto vario indication and displays it as the blue ball. The Dynamis seems to be a large step beyond that in terms of variometry but without the other inbuilt display and Nav functions of the Butterfly.

[[email protected]]

As Mike mentioned, horizontal gusts are usually most disturbing while cruising at higher speeds and entering thermals. The AirGlide S and the ClearNav-Vario are both using ADC derived data to calculate vertical air mass movement. From my experience, it takes some time to find the right setup for these filters. But once that is done, they do a good job in removing horizontal gusts. But they are only working in cruise mode. Perhaps Dynamis uses them in climb mode as well - although the problem of horizontal gusts is most relevant while cruising at high speeds, i.e. in cruise mode.

Mike has every reason to be proud of his new product and it certainly was a great effort to get there. But it is not the first and only vario on the market using such filters.

Cheers
Christoph

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 7:01:23 PM UTC, wrote:
> As Mike mentioned, horizontal gusts are usually most disturbing while cruising at higher speeds and entering thermals. The AirGlide S and the ClearNav-Vario are both using ADC derived data to calculate vertical air mass movement. From my experience, it takes some time to find the right setup for these filters. But once that is done, they do a good job in removing horizontal gusts. But they are only working in cruise mode. Perhaps Dynamis uses them in climb mode as well - although the problem of horizontal gusts is most relevant while cruising at high speeds, i.e. in cruise mode.
>
> Mike has every reason to be proud of his new product and it certainly was a great effort to get there. But it is not the first and only vario on the market using such filters.
>
> Cheers
> Christoph

The only thing I am aware of that MB has said about how the Dynamis works is that it is not by means of filters, specifically, from his Dynamis article:

"It is not a filtering problem as the vertical and horizontal motion occurs on the same time scales and has similar magnitude, making filters useless.."

[2G]

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 12:42:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 7:01:23 PM UTC, wrote:
> > As Mike mentioned, horizontal gusts are usually most disturbing while cruising at higher speeds and entering thermals. The AirGlide S and the ClearNav-Vario are both using ADC derived data to calculate vertical air mass movement. From my experience, it takes some time to find the right setup for these filters. But once that is done, they do a good job in removing horizontal gusts. But they are only working in cruise mode. Perhaps Dynamis uses them in climb mode as well - although the problem of horizontal gusts is most relevant while cruising at high speeds, i.e. in cruise mode.
> >
> > Mike has every reason to be proud of his new product and it certainly was a great effort to get there. But it is not the first and only vario on the market using such filters.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Christoph
>
> The only thing I am aware of that MB has said about how the Dynamis works is that it is not by means of filters, specifically, from his Dynamis article:
>
> "It is not a filtering problem as the vertical and horizontal motion occurs on the same time scales and has similar magnitude, making filters useless."

Don't expect Mike to give you any REAL clues on how his systems works; after all, it is his trade secret. In fact, he may give you false clues to throw you off! One thing I would like to know, however, is the price of the system (that shouldn't be a trade secret).

Tom

[Nick[_5_]]

What is ADC derived data?

On Monday, 18 March 2019 19:01:23 UTC, wrote:
> As Mike mentioned, horizontal gusts are usually most disturbing while cruising at higher speeds and entering thermals. The AirGlide S and the ClearNav-Vario are both using ADC derived data to calculate vertical air mass movement. From my experience, it takes some time to find the right setup for these filters. But once that is done, they do a good job in removing horizontal gusts. But they are only working in cruise mode. Perhaps Dynamis uses them in climb mode as well - although the problem of horizontal gusts is most relevant while cruising at high speeds, i.e. in cruise mode.
>
> Mike has every reason to be proud of his new product and it certainly was a great effort to get there. But it is not the first and only vario on the market using such filters.
>
> Cheers
> Christoph

[Dan Marotta]

Data derived from the Air Data Computer, part of the vario system which
has accelerometers, gps, pitot, static, total energy, and probably other
stuff.

On 3/20/2019 3:10 PM, Nick wrote:
> What is ADC derived data?
>
> On Monday, 18 March 2019 19:01:23 UTC, wrote:
>> As Mike mentioned, horizontal gusts are usually most disturbing while cruising at higher speeds and entering thermals. The AirGlide S and the ClearNav-Vario are both using ADC derived data to calculate vertical air mass movement. From my experience, it takes some time to find the right setup for these filters. But once that is done, they do a good job in removing horizontal gusts. But they are only working in cruise mode. Perhaps Dynamis uses them in climb mode as well - although the problem of horizontal gusts is most relevant while cruising at high speeds, i.e. in cruise mode.
>>
>> Mike has every reason to be proud of his new product and it certainly was a great effort to get there. But it is not the first and only vario on the market using such filters.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Christoph

--
Dan, 5J

[Nick[_5_]]

Thanks.

There are standard algorithms such as Kalman filters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensor_fusion

For example you could dead reckon from ASI, accelerators and gyros. It would drift over time, because its an integration. Combine that however with GPS, altimeter, etc, and you can end up with a system that has lower errors.

Gusts in one way, are just noise, and approaches like Kalman filters work well at eliminating noise. So if you fly into a horizontal gust, you get a change in ASI, but no appreciable longitudinal acceleration.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 8:58:32 PM UTC, Nick wrote:
> Thanks.
>
> There are standard algorithms such as Kalman filters.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensor_fusion
>
> For example you could dead reckon from ASI, accelerators and gyros. It would drift over time, because its an integration. Combine that however with GPS, altimeter, etc, and you can end up with a system that has lower errors..
>
> Gusts in one way, are just noise, and approaches like Kalman filters work well at eliminating noise. So if you fly into a horizontal gust, you get a change in ASI, but no appreciable longitudinal acceleration.

Nick, that approach sounds plausible and is very different from the simple pneumatic or internal electronic signal damping "gust filters" we use now. I can only imagine that the sensor fusion hardware you give a link to would need to be a bit more sophisticated than the MEMS chips in current vario/nav systems.

[Nick[_5_]]

On the mems devices if you have played with them, are pretty standard.

Compasses have errors. The 3 axes are not always at 90 degrees. The center is not necessarily at 50%, and each axis may be scaled differently. It's quite straight forward to turn this ellipsoid into a unit sphere. That's just the calibration.

Same applies for accelerators. You can rotate and hold still to get the calibration.

Gyros are odd. They suffer the same but they drift over time, so you need to adjust for the drift. But over a short period they are good.

GPS is accurate certainly over long periods.

From what I know, TE and ASI, along with altimeters are noisy measuring devices. Noise changes pressure, and hence you get a random change in altimeter. Not sure how they are affected by temperature.

So what do you want to measure?

1. The orientation of the glider - bank, pitch and direction
2. It's velocity
3. It's acceleration
4. The vector of the air. Wind speed + vertical
5. Conceivably, slip.

6. Flaps
7. Conceivably even the control movements.

That should give you a good model, and you should be able to fit from that.

It is what the AHRS systems use anyway, for a subset. See the Madwick system

http://x-io.co.uk/open-source-imu-and-ahrs-algorithms/

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 7:15:55 AM UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 12:42:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 7:01:23 PM UTC, wrote:
> > > As Mike mentioned, horizontal gusts are usually most disturbing while cruising at higher speeds and entering thermals. The AirGlide S and the ClearNav-Vario are both using ADC derived data to calculate vertical air mass movement. From my experience, it takes some time to find the right setup for these filters. But once that is done, they do a good job in removing horizontal gusts. But they are only working in cruise mode. Perhaps Dynamis uses them in climb mode as well - although the problem of horizontal gusts is most relevant while cruising at high speeds, i.e. in cruise mode.
> > >
> > > Mike has every reason to be proud of his new product and it certainly was a great effort to get there. But it is not the first and only vario on the market using such filters.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Christoph
> >
> > The only thing I am aware of that MB has said about how the Dynamis works is that it is not by means of filters, specifically, from his Dynamis article:
> >
> > "It is not a filtering problem as the vertical and horizontal motion occurs on the same time scales and has similar magnitude, making filters useless."
>
> Don't expect Mike to give you any REAL clues on how his systems works; after all, it is his trade secret. In fact, he may give you false clues to throw you off! One thing I would like to know, however, is the price of the system (that shouldn't be a trade secret).
>
> Tom

Why not explain how and why it works?
This makes me a bit sceptical. Is there a patent application pending?
Looking at the videos, I can't see any difference that can't be explained by a longer integration time.

[Charlie Quebec]

Yeh why not give away the fruits of many years of research, so others can copy it, sounds like a great idea to promote your business.

[[email protected]]

Having studied both videos very closely several times I disagree that the Dynamis vario simply shows evidence of a longer integration time - quite the reverse, I see a faster and much more steady response. Watching the ASIs, altimeters and pitch changes at the same time and trying vicariously to "feel" the air suggests to me that the Dynamis Vario is better at showing real lift.

It will be great to have a third party expert flight report eventually. Until then I would tend to think that if MB puts his reputation on the line and says it is a significant advance then it most probably is. I think that it is unlikely that, after decades of development, and having written long ago that time filtering is no help in removing gust induced TE vario errors, he would then offer a longer integration time as a solution.

[Mike the Strike]

Without any technical insight into the product, I am prepared to say that there is a good chance that Mike has done what he says. We corresponded a couple of decades ago about this problem, since we experience sometimes severe gust/shear problems with our strong Arizona thermals. New sensors enable several possible mechanisms to compensate for this problem. Mike has had at least twenty years to figure it out and has a long history of designing good varios.

Mike

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 4:50:50 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Having studied both videos very closely several times I disagree that the Dynamis vario simply shows evidence of a longer integration time - quite the reverse, I see a faster and much more steady response. Watching the ASIs, altimeters and pitch changes at the same time and trying vicariously to "feel" the air suggests to me that the Dynamis Vario is better at showing real lift.
>
> It will be great to have a third party expert flight report eventually. Until then I would tend to think that if MB puts his reputation on the line and says it is a significant advance then it most probably is. I think that it is unlikely that, after decades of development, and having written long ago that time filtering is no help in removing gust induced TE vario errors, he would then offer a longer integration time as a solution.

Just wondering how this new vario compares to Air-Avionics butterfly (air-glide)?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 3:03:22 PM UTC+1, Mike the Strike wrote:
> Without any technical insight into the product, I am prepared to say that there is a good chance that Mike has done what he says. We corresponded a couple of decades ago about this problem, since we experience sometimes severe gust/shear problems with our strong Arizona thermals. New sensors enable several possible mechanisms to compensate for this problem. Mike has had at least twenty years to figure it out and has a long history of designing good varios.
>
> Mike

With all respect, I am sure that there has been a lot of time and effort put into this, but that does not per definition means that it is a good product.

I'd really like to know what sensors are involved, the basic functions should be explained. I don't buy this "i am not gonna tell you" approach.

As an engineer, I like to use facts, not "good chance" or just strong belief. Lets not make this one about religion.

Especially when it is stated Quote: "The most significant advance in sailplane instruments since the invention of Total Energy and maybe the variometer itself".

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
>
> Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
>
> Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
>
> The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
>
> The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
>
> Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
>
> Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
>
> After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
>
> We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
>
> I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
>
> Mike Borgelt

Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest.

After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.

If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.

A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?

Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?

Regards,

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 1:08:29 AM UTC+1, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Yeh why not give away the fruits of many years of research, so others can copy it, sounds like a great idea to promote your business.

Ever heard of a concept called "Patent"?

[Mike C]

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 11:41:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> > Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
> >
> > Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> > Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
> >
> > Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
> >
> > The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> > (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
> >
> > The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
> >
> > Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
> >
> > Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
> >
> > After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
> >
> > We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
> >
> > I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
> >
> > Mike Borgelt
>
> Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest.
>
> After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.
>
> If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.
>
> A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?
>
> Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?
>
> Regards

,

"A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?"


You end up not circling in sink.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 8:52:02 PM UTC+1, Mike C wrote:
> On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 11:41:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> > > Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
> > >
> > > Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> > > Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
> > >
> > > Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
> > >
> > > The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> > > (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
> > >
> > > The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
> > >
> > > Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
> > >
> > > Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
> > >
> > > After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
> > >
> > > We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
> > >
> > > I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
> > >
> > > Mike Borgelt
> >
> > Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest..
> >
> > After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.
> >
> > If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.
> >
> > A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?
> >
> > Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?
> >
> > Regards
>
> ,
>
> "A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?"
>
>
> You end up not circling in sink.

Yes, but I would also end up crusing in tailwind gradients, with a vario saying zero sink.

[Mike C]

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 3:34:18 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 8:52:02 PM UTC+1, Mike C wrote:
> > On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 11:41:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> > > > Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.
> > > >
> > > > Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
> > > > Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.
> > > >
> > > > Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.
> > > >
> > > > The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
> > > > (a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).
> > > >
> > > > The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.
> > > >
> > > > Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.
> > > >
> > > > Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.
> > > >
> > > > After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.
> > > >
> > > > We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.
> > > >
> > > > I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.
> > > >
> > > > Mike Borgelt
> > >
> > > Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest.
> > >
> > > After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.
> > >
> > > If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.
> > >
> > > A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?
> > >
> > > Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?
> > >
> > > Regards
> >
> > ,
> >
> > "A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?"
> >
> >
> > You end up not circling in sink.
>
> Yes, but I would also end up cruising in tailwind gradients, with a vario saying zero sink.

Well, I do not mind you circling in sink, while I cruise through it ;^). Practically, although I am just barely an average pilot, a good TE vario while using the "seat of my pants" logarithm solved most of my problems with horizontal gusts.

Mike

[krasw]

Variometer signal derived from inertial platform is game-changer, especially with modern gliders that regularly cruise at very high speeds. It is simply amazing to see Air GlideS blue netto-ball steadily pointing 2 m/s thermal while blazing trough it at 180 km/h and traditional variometers jumping like crazy. Nice to see at least some other manufacturer finally getting there.

[[email protected]]

When will this marvel be available fo purchase?!?!?

[[email protected]]

When will this marvel be available for purchase!?!?

[Mike Borgelt[_2_]]

On Wednesday, 27 March 2019 02:52:17 UTC+10, wrote:
> When will this marvel be available for purchase!?!?

We're doing a couple more local installations in the next few weeks. After that we should be good to release more widely.

All feasible gusts are removed by the way Dynamis does TE.

The gusts that really matter aren't just the very short term ones. They are annoying, add to workload and make you tired or make the vario useless for a couple of seconds. Also cause you to slow the vario response to remove some of these problems but you then lose timely information about the vertical motion.

The bad ones last for a several seconds or more and lead you to believe there is a thermal there, causing you to turn. A bad 360 turn in what wasn't really a thermal, or one as good as you want, costs 30 to 60 seconds. Not slowing down soon enough in a thermal encounter because you aren't sure it is a core can cause you to fly completely through the core and out the other side, wasting more time.

I believe and know, after looking at the AirGlide vario manual, that Dynamis is very significantly different from that instrument. That vario seems to mix the netto vario with AHRS derived airmass. You'll get reasonable horizontal vector wind but if you know that to within 2 to 3 knots and maybe 10 degrees you'd be happy. You wouldn't be happy with a 2 to 3 knot vario offset.

The wind calculation in Dynamis is fast and super accurate.

Yes Dynamis works in climb mode as well as cruise. That was a bonus. The design criteria were - get it to work in cruising flight seamlessly including in the normal heading changes made in cruise, so we had to cope with turns. Climb was originally intended to be the usual pressure based TE vario but coping with turns in cruise made it work while climbing in thermals. The fast response and lack of sensitivity to the gusts reveals more structure in the vertical motion in thermal turns.

No, Dynamis is not a "longer integration time" or better put, longer time constant low pass filter. You can see in the video a couple of times where real lift is encountered, Dynamis is just as fast as the 1.5 second time constant LX vario. Once again, Dynamis IS NOT a filter, Kalman or otherwise. The video also shows a few times that “g” effects are present on the pressure vario, absent on Dynamis.

We did a LOT of work, flying and logging on the inertial stuff before 2013. Seemed messy and only good for short term gusts with great difficulties in turns, even the usual heading changes to go to a different cloud. You really don't want artifacts on the vario because you turned or to be switching between inertial and pressure based varios when flying straight or turning. We judged it not worth the effort of proceeding with that for what we considered minor performance gains.

Other things Dynamis is not: No Flarm, no moving maps, no AHRS, no logger.
Just a full function honest variometer (vario, netto, relative, speed command, averagers and two channel audio with serial data output).

There are so many compact loggers on the market that the world doesn't need any more. Also a pain to get calibrated every 5 years if built in to the vario, particularly if there are installation issues.
My moving map is Tophat on a A$100 Lenovo Tab 3 7" tablet. Brilliant sunlight readable screen and fast smooth operation. A A$20 trackball and you don't have to touch the screen. Connected to Dynamis and Flarm via our two channel Borgelt Bluetooth mixer to get Flarm targets on the screen.


As for Patents: Some while ago I read a web article on patenting your million dollar idea. The conclusion was that unless it was a $40 million idea you were going to be out of pocket. There are no World patents. You need to patent in various jurisdictions. Some MAY have reciprocal arrangements with each other. This is very expensive and time consuming and doesn't get you any protection except the right to sue anybody infringing in those jurisdictions. I'd rather not spend my time talking to lawyers and in any court you are always rolling the dice. Better to go to Vegas and put your money on the red or the black. Quicker, cheaper, less stressful and you KNOW what the house percentage is. The OTHER problem with patents is that you have to describe your invention and the operating principles. Great way to tell your competitors about it so they can your device works and figure a way around the patent.
There is a reason that SpaceX has few patents - the Chinese would simply copy them and ignore any patent infringements. Imagine trying to sue what are State owned businesses in a dictatorship. Good luck. Elon Musk has said SpaceX has industrial secrets instead.

Mike

[2G]

On Monday, April 8, 2019 at 9:11:36 PM UTC-7, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> On Wednesday, 27 March 2019 02:52:17 UTC+10, wrote:
> > When will this marvel be available for purchase!?!?
>
> We're doing a couple more local installations in the next few weeks. After that we should be good to release more widely.
>
> All feasible gusts are removed by the way Dynamis does TE.
>
> The gusts that really matter aren't just the very short term ones. They are annoying, add to workload and make you tired or make the vario useless for a couple of seconds. Also cause you to slow the vario response to remove some of these problems but you then lose timely information about the vertical motion.
>
> The bad ones last for a several seconds or more and lead you to believe there is a thermal there, causing you to turn. A bad 360 turn in what wasn't really a thermal, or one as good as you want, costs 30 to 60 seconds. Not slowing down soon enough in a thermal encounter because you aren't sure it is a core can cause you to fly completely through the core and out the other side, wasting more time.
>
> I believe and know, after looking at the AirGlide vario manual, that Dynamis is very significantly different from that instrument. That vario seems to mix the netto vario with AHRS derived airmass. You'll get reasonable horizontal vector wind but if you know that to within 2 to 3 knots and maybe 10 degrees you'd be happy. You wouldn't be happy with a 2 to 3 knot vario offset.
>
> The wind calculation in Dynamis is fast and super accurate.
>
> Yes Dynamis works in climb mode as well as cruise. That was a bonus. The design criteria were - get it to work in cruising flight seamlessly including in the normal heading changes made in cruise, so we had to cope with turns. Climb was originally intended to be the usual pressure based TE vario but coping with turns in cruise made it work while climbing in thermals. The fast response and lack of sensitivity to the gusts reveals more structure in the vertical motion in thermal turns.
>
> No, Dynamis is not a "longer integration time" or better put, longer time constant low pass filter. You can see in the video a couple of times where real lift is encountered, Dynamis is just as fast as the 1.5 second time constant LX vario. Once again, Dynamis IS NOT a filter, Kalman or otherwise. The video also shows a few times that “g” effects are present on the pressure vario, absent on Dynamis.
>
> We did a LOT of work, flying and logging on the inertial stuff before 2013. Seemed messy and only good for short term gusts with great difficulties in turns, even the usual heading changes to go to a different cloud. You really don't want artifacts on the vario because you turned or to be switching between inertial and pressure based varios when flying straight or turning. We judged it not worth the effort of proceeding with that for what we considered minor performance gains.
>
> Other things Dynamis is not: No Flarm, no moving maps, no AHRS, no logger..
> Just a full function honest variometer (vario, netto, relative, speed command, averagers and two channel audio with serial data output).
>
> There are so many compact loggers on the market that the world doesn't need any more. Also a pain to get calibrated every 5 years if built in to the vario, particularly if there are installation issues.
> My moving map is Tophat on a A$100 Lenovo Tab 3 7" tablet. Brilliant sunlight readable screen and fast smooth operation. A A$20 trackball and you don't have to touch the screen. Connected to Dynamis and Flarm via our two channel Borgelt Bluetooth mixer to get Flarm targets on the screen.
>
>
> As for Patents: Some while ago I read a web article on patenting your million dollar idea. The conclusion was that unless it was a $40 million idea you were going to be out of pocket. There are no World patents. You need to patent in various jurisdictions. Some MAY have reciprocal arrangements with each other. This is very expensive and time consuming and doesn't get you any protection except the right to sue anybody infringing in those jurisdictions. I'd rather not spend my time talking to lawyers and in any court you are always rolling the dice. Better to go to Vegas and put your money on the red or the black. Quicker, cheaper, less stressful and you KNOW what the house percentage is. The OTHER problem with patents is that you have to describe your invention and the operating principles. Great way to tell your competitors about it so they can your device works and figure a way around the patent.
> There is a reason that SpaceX has few patents - the Chinese would simply copy them and ignore any patent infringements. Imagine trying to sue what are State owned businesses in a dictatorship. Good luck. Elon Musk has said SpaceX has industrial secrets instead.
>
> Mike

Any update on when the Dynamis vario will be available for sale (it wasn't when I ordered by ASH31Mi last year)?

Tom

[[email protected]]

About 3 months ago when I enquired Mike told me he was about to supply a small batch. He replies to emails within a few days.

[[email protected]]

Have there been any updates on this project? Can anyone who has flown with the Dynamis report on its performance?

Patrick

[cjl76]

On Sunday, 11 October 2020 at 10:46:50 am UTC+8, wrote:
> Have there been any updates on this project? Can anyone who has flown with the Dynamis report on its performance?
>
> Patrick

I haven't flown with it myself though I'm yet to hear a bad thing about it (from the 3 people I know that have taken the plunge). If you can handle drilling a hole in your pride and joy for the rear antenna (no differential GPS position without it), it sounds like the goods.

CJ
B3

[John Galloway[_2_]]

On Sunday, 11 October 2020 at 13:54:32 UTC+1, cjl76 wrote:
> On Sunday, 11 October 2020 at 10:46:50 am UTC+8, wrote:
> > Have there been any updates on this project? Can anyone who has flown with the Dynamis report on its performance?
> >
> > Patrick
> I haven't flown with it myself though I'm yet to hear a bad thing about it (from the 3 people I know that have taken the plunge). If you can handle drilling a hole in your pride and joy for the rear antenna (no differential GPS position without it), it sounds like the goods.
>
> CJ
> B3

Does that mean that the Dynamis only works properly within range of a differential GPS station?

[[email protected]]

This things is still an interesting puzzle. No manuals or prices on the web site yet.

If TE = mgh + 1/2mv**2, perhaps one could measure v and/or h with a really good GPS instead of plumbing? (That might measure things with respect to the ground instead of airmass, but given that's where the next waypoint is, I'm still unconvinced that that is bad.)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Galloway wrote on 10/11/2020 7:03 AM:
> On Sunday, 11 October 2020 at 13:54:32 UTC+1, cjl76 wrote:
>> On Sunday, 11 October 2020 at 10:46:50 am UTC+8, wrote:
>>> Have there been any updates on this project? Can anyone who has flown with the Dynamis report on its performance?
>>>
>>> Patrick
>> I haven't flown with it myself though I'm yet to hear a bad thing about it (from the 3 people I know that have taken the plunge). If you can handle drilling a hole in your pride and joy for the rear antenna (no differential GPS position without it), it sounds like the goods.
>>
>> CJ
>> B3
>
> Does that mean that the Dynamis only works properly within range of a differential GPS station?

I'm sure it means with respect to another GPS antenna mounted on the glider, though I don't see
anything on the website discussing Dynamis use of GPS. That would allow pitch measurement.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 07:29:10 -0700, stu857xx wrote:

> This things is still an interesting puzzle. No manuals or prices on the
> web site yet.
>
> If TE = mgh + 1/2mv**2, perhaps one could measure v and/or h with a
> really good GPS instead of plumbing? (That might measure things with
> respect to the ground instead of airmass, but given that's where the
> next waypoint is, I'm still unconvinced that that is bad.)

That's been done. The ALOFT project, which developed a thermal-aware
autopilot for a 5m span carbon RC glider airframe measured air mass
movement using an onboard GPS well enough to locate and center thermals.
They claimed the signal was less noisy then the output from an onboard
vario.

That project was completed in 2007 and got its developer a PHD in aero-
engineering. Details (the thesis, a related paper or two as well as the
story of it taking part in an RC XC competition in California) are
available on the Internet, though you may need to use the Wayback Machine
archive to find all of them.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

> That's been done. The ALOFT project,

Thanks, here's the report link
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA614555.pdf

[mart]

I know the quintus pilot quite well and he is very happy with the vario and obviously still flying with it. So happy that his wife, who flies a 31 , now also has one.
The installation involves 2 rather large ( about 100mm) professional GPS antennas in the glider. One in the cockpit and the other one on top of the fuselage halfway near the tail. You barely notice it.
They work on the normal GPS signals from the US , Galileo and the other ones if available, like car navigation only a lot more accurate and for vertical speed.
Mike has made an amazing innovation for gliding.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 10:15:03 PM UTC-4, mart wrote:
> I know the quintus pilot quite well and he is very happy with the vario and obviously still flying with it. So happy that his wife, who flies a 31 , now also has one.
> The installation involves 2 rather large ( about 100mm) professional GPS antennas in the glider. One in the cockpit and the other one on top of the fuselage halfway near the tail. You barely notice it.
> They work on the normal GPS signals from the US , Galileo and the other ones if available, like car navigation only a lot more accurate and for vertical speed.
> Mike has made an amazing innovation for gliding.
Kind of strange that so far no one who actually flew with the variometer endorsed it publicly. I would expect an article by now in a major soaring magazine.

[Brad Alston[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 4:58:11 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

> Kind of strange that so far no one who actually flew with the variometer endorsed it publicly. I would expect an article by now in a major soaring magazine.

Unless those that have it want to keep it as competitive advantage as long as they can! ;)