Glider cross-country time toward commercial SEL requrements?

[Matt Michael]

I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country time can be
applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical experience
requirements.

FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes".

FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
an appropriate aircraft".

I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma City. All are
saying, "Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to you".

Anyone with experience with this question care to weigh in?

Thanks,
Matt Michael CFIG
Woodstock N20609 "Wanders Wonder"
IS-28B2 Lark N28DG

[Blake Oliver]

A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
Nice try though.

Blake Oliver
44



Matt Michael wrote:

> I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country time can be
> applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical experience
> requirements.
>
> FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
> hours must be in airplanes".
>
> FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
> with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
> an appropriate aircraft".
>
> I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma City. All are
> saying, "Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to you".
>
> Anyone with experience with this question care to weigh in?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Michael CFIG
> Woodstock N20609 "Wanders Wonder"
> IS-28B2 Lark N28DG

[Jack]

Blake Oliver wrote:
> A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.

And this affects the following how?

>> FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
>> hours must be in airplanes".

So, 40 hours could be in a sailplane, or in a gyro-copter for that matter.


>> FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
>> with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
>> an appropriate aircraft".

The only question is whether or not the FAA interpretation which
finally comes down will accept the sailplane as "an _appropriate_
aircraft". IMO, 50+ mile x-c in a sailplane is a more significant (and
demanding) x-c flight than it would be in C-150.



Jack

[Marc Ramsey]

> Matt Michael wrote:
>> FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at
>> least 10 hours must be in airplanes".

Blake Oliver wrote:
> A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
> Nice try though.

Please note that only 10 of the 50 hours must be in an "airplane", the
other 40 must be in an "aircraft". Those 40 hours could be in a
"glider". However, one must land at least 50 nm away from the point of
departure in order for a flight to count as "cross-country. So, if one
has 40 hours worth of cross-country flights where you land at least 50
nm away from home, you'll only need 10 hours of "airplane" cross-country
time to meet the requirements.

For example, I have about 750 hours of cross-country flight time in
gliders (most well over 200 miles), but nearly all ended up back at
home, or less than 25 miles away. So I only have 20 hours or so of
glider cross-country time from the FAA's perspective.

Marc

[Vaughn]

"Blake Oliver" > wrote in message
news:hORod.383895$wV.186005@attbi_s54...
> A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
> Nice try though.

Huh?

1) 61.129 (a) (ii) states that 10 of the 50 hours must be in airplanes, which
clearly implies that the other 40 may be done in some other type of aircraft
other than an "airplane".

2) 61.1 (b) (3) "Cross-country time means-" makes no mention of the word
"airplane".

Did I miss something? I don't see how there could possibly be any question
that glider cross-country time would apply towards the Commercial SEl rating as
long as it otherwise meets the definition (50-mile straight-line distance,
pilotage etc.).

Vaughn

[Tom Seim]

(Matt Michael) wrote in message >...
> I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country time can be
> applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical experience
> requirements.
>
> FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
> hours must be in airplanes".
>
> FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
> with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
> an appropriate aircraft".
>
> I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma City. All are
> saying, "Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to you".
>
> Anyone with experience with this question care to weigh in?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Michael CFIG
> Woodstock N20609 "Wanders Wonder"
> IS-28B2 Lark N28DG

I have done exactly this. The bottom line is that you CAN use your
glider XC time, IF you land more than 50 NM from departure. This saved
me about one half of the flight time. Nowadays, that is 25 times $70
per hour = $1,750.

Tom

[Matt Michael]

"Vaughn" > wrote in message >...
> "Blake Oliver" > wrote in message
> news:hORod.383895$wV.186005@attbi_s54...
> > A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
> > Nice try though.
>
> Huh?
>
> 1) 61.129 (a) (ii) states that 10 of the 50 hours must be in airplanes, which
> clearly implies that the other 40 may be done in some other type of aircraft
> other than an "airplane".
>
> 2) 61.1 (b) (3) "Cross-country time means-" makes no mention of the word
> "airplane".
>
> Did I miss something? I don't see how there could possibly be any question
> that glider cross-country time would apply towards the Commercial SEl rating as
> long as it otherwise meets the definition (50-mile straight-line distance,
> pilotage etc.).
>
> Vaughn


The term "appropriate aircraft" in 61.1 does leave room for
interpretation. Appropriate to the catagory and class of the rating
sought? Appropriate perhaps meaning with an N number?

One examiner I asked said he didn't know but that if I showed up with
40 hours of balloon cross country he'd tell me to take a hike.

I don't want to show up for a checkride and find out I need 40 more
hours with that infernal contraption screaming away up front.

MM

[Stefan]

Matt Michael wrote:

> One examiner I asked said he didn't know but that if I showed up with
> 40 hours of balloon cross country he'd tell me to take a hike.

But is a balloon an aircraft at all? In German, at least, balloons don't
even "fly"!

Stefan

[Ray Lovinggood]

(Regrets if this gets posted twice. The first time,
it seemed to disappear into bit-space.)

I don't know the answer to the original question, but
I'm interestd to learn the answer(s).

Interesting the FAA requires a flight of 50nm and a
landing away from the originating field to be considered
'XC.' In a glider, if you get more than one thermal
away from home field, you're 'XC.'

While I do want to know the answer, I wonder why the
original poster of this thread would want to 'cut short'
his 'training' time. Yes, he will save money on flying
before he gets his rating, but he's going to spend
the money anyway after he gets his rating, so overall,
I don't see a money savings.

It's odd that we do all we can do to fly as many hours
as we can, gaining experience, having fun, and seeing
new sights with each additional moment in the air.
Then, we look for ways to make our flying time shorter.
I read about and hear about pilots complaining about
diversions dictated by Air Traffic Control and I wonder
why the complaint. Yes, I know it's more money, but
heck, we're going to have to pay to fly anyway. On
one VFR flight in a Cezzna 150, the controller vectored
me around the Class C airport I was approaching to
land due to traffic. He apologized for the diversion,
but I thought it was great. I flew over land I hadn't
been over and got some addtional flying time. Didn't
bother me a bit. Yep, some of us want to build time
and some of us complain when we have to fly more than
we think we should.

What does it take to make us happy?
(I'll settle for a 0.5 knot thermal about right now
:-) )

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
(Facing a long winter, and no wise cracks from the
Northern Plains crowd about the 'long' North Carolina
winters...)

At 06:30 24 November 2004, Tom Seim wrote:
(Matt Michael) wrote in message news:...
>> I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country
>>time can be
>> applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical
>>experience
>> requirements.
>>
>> FAR 61.129 says '50 hours of cross-country flight
>>of which at least 10
>> hours must be in airplanes'.
>>
>> FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other
>>things, flight
>> with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure
>>and 'conducted in
>> an appropriate aircraft'.
>>
>> I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma
>>City. All are
>> saying, 'Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to
>>you'.
>>
>> Anyone with experience with this question care to
>>weigh in?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Matt Michael CFIG
>> Woodstock N20609 'Wanders Wonder'
>> IS-28B2 Lark N28DG
>
>I have done exactly this. The bottom line is that you
>CAN use your
>glider XC time, IF you land more than 50 NM from departure.
>This saved
>me about one half of the flight time. Nowadays, that
>is 25 times $70
>per hour = $1,750.
>
>Tom
>

[Brian Case]

If it does not specifically specify an airplane, Helicoptor, Glider,
etc. Then any aircraft will work for the requirement.

So, From the FARs you show below, you can apply 40 hours of glider
cross country to your Commecial SEL Rating. However you must land at
least 50 miles from your original point of departure for it to count
as a cross country.

I know a few glider pilots that have done this. I have also
transitioned a few Helicopter pilots into airplanes that have done
this as well.

I have spent a fair amount of time conversing with Alan Pinkston of
AFS-600 and the Author the Part 61 FAQ. He also in the past has the
done the training for the examiners, and many examiners have met or
been trained in person by him. I have had to show some of his
responses to my inquires to a few examiners to prove various
interpretations of the rules.

One of my more difficult questions for him was How do I log glider
x-country flights where I do not land 50 miles away? The official
answer came back as you may log it as Cross Country time, however it
can not be used as time towards a rating. Since the only rating that
allows you to log x-country time where you do not land 50 nm away from
your departure point is the ATP rating, and it specifies that it must
be done in an airplane.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL





(Matt Michael) wrote in message >...
> I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country time can be
> applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical experience
> requirements.
>
> FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
> hours must be in airplanes".
>
> FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
> with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
> an appropriate aircraft".
>
> I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma City. All are
> saying, "Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to you".
>
> Anyone with experience with this question care to weigh in?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Michael CFIG
> Woodstock N20609 "Wanders Wonder"
> IS-28B2 Lark N28DG

[Vaughn Simon]

"Matt Michael" > wrote in message
om...
>
> One examiner I asked said he didn't know but that if I showed up with
> 40 hours of balloon cross country he'd tell me to take a hike.

And he would be right, simply drifting acros the landscape for 50+
miles would not meet the requirements, unless you could explain how you were
able to manuver the balloon in reference to landmarks and navaids in
according to the language of 61.1 (b) (3). As others have pointed out, a
cross-country glider flight is a whole 'nuther matter and is much more
difficult than making the same flight in an airplane.

Vaughn


>
> I don't want to show up for a checkride and find out I need 40 more
> hours with that infernal contraption screaming away up front.

I don't think that will happen.


Vaughn

[Andy Durbin]

Jack > wrote in message >...
>
> The only question is whether or not the FAA interpretation which
> finally comes down will accept the sailplane as "an _appropriate_
> aircraft". IMO, 50+ mile x-c in a sailplane is a more significant (and
> demanding) x-c flight than it would be in C-150.
>
>
>
> Jack

I used about 25 hours of glider flights that resulted in landouts as
qualifying cross country time for my commercial airplane. I also plan
to use lots of glider time towards my ATP if I go for that. I have
confirmed with AFS 600 that this is acceptable to FAA. I also asked
for clarification of what were "inappropriate" aircraft and was told
there were none.

Andy

[Andy Durbin]

Ray Lovinggood > wrote in message news>

> Interesting the FAA requires a flight of 50nm and a
> landing away from the originating field to be considered
> 'XC.' In a glider, if you get more than one thermal
> away from home field, you're 'XC.'


While that is true for qualifying cross country for commercial
airplane it is not an FAA definition of cross country. Qualifying
cross country for ATP does not require a landing at a remote point.
All our glider flights that have a point further than 50nm from the
takeoff point can be used as qualifying cross country for an ATP
rating.

A check of the regs shows that there are several different definitions
of cross country. You have to use the one that is applicable to the
required aeronautical experience.


Andy

[Andy Durbin]

(Brian Case) wrote in message >...
Since the only rating that
> allows you to log x-country time where you do not land 50 nm away from
> your departure point is the ATP rating, and it specifies that it must
> be done in an airplane.
>
> Brian Case
> CFIIG/ASEL
>


Per Section 61.159: Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
Only 100 of the required 500 cross country hours need to be in an airplane.


Andy

[Mike Stringfellow]

I raised the same question when recently recertifying to overcome
restrictions on my foreign licence.

As far as I can tell, the FAA requires you to log all flights whether
or not these are cross-country flights. Cross-country hours for
glider flights appears on FAA application forms and is obviously
relevant (even though it's not a requirement for a US glider rating).
However, there is no definition of glider cross-country other than
that in 61.1, which requires a landing at a field other than the
departure one.

I pointed out to my local FSDO that glider cross-country flights
normally do not involve a landing at other than the departure point,
so how do we log them? They told me that if I was flying out of
gliding range of my home field, I could consider that a cross-country
flight in a glider and log it that way. However, only cross-country
flights that involve a landing away from home can be used for airplane
or rotorcraft ratings (25 or 50 miles). you need to make sure you log
this too.

This is a gray area open to interpretation, so expect dfferent answers
depending on who you ask.

Mike

ASW 20 (& Cessna 172)

[BTIZ]

Mike.. a good response with only one error..

The FAA does not require you to log any flights...
you are required to log flights to show proof of recent currency... example,
3 landings in last 90 days to carry passengers.. or night landing currency..
and you are required to log any flight time used to accumulate required
hours towards an additional rating..

so in reality.. you could log what you need to show 3 landings in 90 days,
or 6 approaches in 6 months with holding and tracking for an IFR currency..
and that would be it..

you would not be required to log flights even if you flew every day.
FAR 61.51 (a)

BT

"Mike Stringfellow" > wrote in message
om...
>I raised the same question when recently recertifying to overcome
> restrictions on my foreign licence.
>
> As far as I can tell, the FAA requires you to log all flights whether
> or not these are cross-country flights. Cross-country hours for
> glider flights appears on FAA application forms and is obviously
> relevant (even though it's not a requirement for a US glider rating).
> However, there is no definition of glider cross-country other than
> that in 61.1, which requires a landing at a field other than the
> departure one.
>
> I pointed out to my local FSDO that glider cross-country flights
> normally do not involve a landing at other than the departure point,
> so how do we log them? They told me that if I was flying out of
> gliding range of my home field, I could consider that a cross-country
> flight in a glider and log it that way. However, only cross-country
> flights that involve a landing away from home can be used for airplane
> or rotorcraft ratings (25 or 50 miles). you need to make sure you log
> this too.
>
> This is a gray area open to interpretation, so expect dfferent answers
> depending on who you ask.
>
> Mike
>
> ASW 20 (& Cessna 172)

[Tom Seim]

Ray Lovinggood > wrote in message >...
> (Regrets if this gets posted twice. The first time,
> it seemed to disappear into bit-space.)
>
> I don't know the answer to the original question, but
> I'm interestd to learn the answer(s).
>
> Interesting the FAA requires a flight of 50nm and a
> landing away from the originating field to be considered
> 'XC.' In a glider, if you get more than one thermal
> away from home field, you're 'XC.'
>
> While I do want to know the answer, I wonder why the
> original poster of this thread would want to 'cut short'
> his 'training' time. Yes, he will save money on flying
> before he gets his rating, but he's going to spend
> the money anyway after he gets his rating, so overall,
> I don't see a money savings.
>
> It's odd that we do all we can do to fly as many hours
> as we can, gaining experience, having fun, and seeing
> new sights with each additional moment in the air.
> Then, we look for ways to make our flying time shorter.
> I read about and hear about pilots complaining about
> diversions dictated by Air Traffic Control and I wonder
> why the complaint. Yes, I know it's more money, but
> heck, we're going to have to pay to fly anyway. On
> one VFR flight in a Cezzna 150, the controller vectored
> me around the Class C airport I was approaching to
> land due to traffic. He apologized for the diversion,
> but I thought it was great. I flew over land I hadn't
> been over and got some addtional flying time. Didn't
> bother me a bit. Yep, some of us want to build time
> and some of us complain when we have to fly more than
> we think we should.
>
> What does it take to make us happy?
> (I'll settle for a 0.5 knot thermal about right now
> :-) )
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
> (Facing a long winter, and no wise cracks from the
> Northern Plains crowd about the 'long' North Carolina
> winters...)
>
> At 06:30 24 November 2004, Tom Seim wrote:
> (Matt Michael) wrote in message news:...
> >> I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country
> >>time can be
> >> applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical
> >>experience
> >> requirements.
> >>
> >> FAR 61.129 says '50 hours of cross-country flight
> >>of which at least 10
> >> hours must be in airplanes'.
> >>
> >> FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other
> >>things, flight
> >> with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure
> >>and 'conducted in
> >> an appropriate aircraft'.
> >>
> >> I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma
> >>City. All are
> >> saying, 'Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to
> >>you'.
> >>
> >> Anyone with experience with this question care to
> >>weigh in?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Matt Michael CFIG
> >> Woodstock N20609 'Wanders Wonder'
> >> IS-28B2 Lark N28DG
> >
> >I have done exactly this. The bottom line is that you
> >CAN use your
> >glider XC time, IF you land more than 50 NM from departure.
> >This saved
> >me about one half of the flight time. Nowadays, that
> >is 25 times $70
> >per hour = $1,750.
> >
> >Tom
> >

Simple: you can't carry passengers while training.

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Andy Durbin > wrote:
(Brian Case) wrote in message >...
> Since the only rating that
>> allows you to log x-country time where you do not land 50 nm away from
>> your departure point is the ATP rating, and it specifies that it must
>> be done in an airplane.
>
>Per Section 61.159: Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.
>Only 100 of the required 500 cross country hours need to be in an airplane.

It makes sense to me that glider flights which don't involve a landing at
least 50nm away wouldn't count as a X-C towards ASEL. Doing a bunch
of navigation, and then finding the spot, and then landing at a
unknown airport is different from landing at the home field.

I've noticed that there are quite a few (pure) glider pilots I know who have
hundreds of hours but have landed at less than a half-dozen airports.
Obviously this can be safe, and they seem to be enjoying their gliding,
but I have encouraged them to expand their experience by landing out
on purpose at a different airport (and getting an aero-retrieve)
or trailering to different gliderports for launch.

The self-launch guys seem to get the best of both worlds... :O

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd