Wing Bubbles and re-surfacing

[Steve Hill]

After my nice flight last month in Mt. Rainier wave to 24k, my wings have
turned into a blistered nightmare on the DG-400. I probably have 2,000 small
bubbles ranging from .005 to .015" tall...I've been sanding the gelcoat down
in an effort to see if I can break through them, but I am nervous as hell if
what I'm doing is a bad idea...Is there any chemical that will remove
Gelcoat and not hurt the substrate, or is the best method to actually just
sand till ya can't sand no more???


Anyway...my thought is to sand the wings down, but then I'm not really clear
on what's going to keep the moisture from returning for good...it seems like
baking the wings is a decent idea, though for now I'm not exactly sure how
and at what temperature...Anyone's input will be appreciated...again, the
worry is that if you go to all the trouble to sand things down to bare
material, is there a way to assure that the bubbles don't come back in the
future. My plan would be to re-finish with one of the PolyUrethane
systems...So, time, temp, advice or chemicals!!!!

Thanks


Steve.

[John Galloway]

A number of years ago I had a serious dose of blistering
on a Discus fuselage. I asked around several UK repair
shops and the only one who had a repair plan beyond
just sanding and refinishing was Bob McLean (the UK
DG agent) who said what he recommended was to sand
off the gel to the glass cloth, leave the exposed area
to dry off under controlled warming for a few days
until it was bone dry, then paint the surface of the
glass cloth with a thin layer of resin to seal it and
let it dry and then refinish with gelcoat and reweigh.
He did a beatiful job and we never got another single
blister in the repaired area.

John Galloway





At 23:01 02 December 2004, Steve Hill wrote:
>After my nice flight last month in Mt. Rainier wave
>to 24k, my wings have
>turned into a blistered nightmare on the DG-400. I
>probably have 2,000 small
>bubbles ranging from .005 to .015' tall...I've been
>sanding the gelcoat down
>in an effort to see if I can break through them, but
>I am nervous as hell if
>what I'm doing is a bad idea...Is there any chemical
>that will remove
>Gelcoat and not hurt the substrate, or is the best
>method to actually just
>sand till ya can't sand no more???
>
>
>Anyway...my thought is to sand the wings down, but
>then I'm not really clear
>on what's going to keep the moisture from returning
>for good...it seems like
>baking the wings is a decent idea, though for now I'm
>not exactly sure how
>and at what temperature...Anyone's input will be appreciated...aga
>>in, the
>worry is that if you go to all the trouble to sand
>things down to bare
>material, is there a way to assure that the bubbles
>don't come back in the
>future. My plan would be to re-finish with one of the
>PolyUrethane
>systems...So, time, temp, advice or chemicals!!!!
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Steve.
>
>
>
>
>

[Mark Zivley]

The Gelcoat itself is slightly hygroscopic (sp?) and will therefore
absorb and retain some amount of water. If you refinish with Urethane
that issue should go away and you shouldn't need to worry about moisture
permeating the composite structure.

Good luck,

Mark

Steve Hill wrote:
> After my nice flight last month in Mt. Rainier wave to 24k, my wings have
> turned into a blistered nightmare on the DG-400. I probably have 2,000 small
> bubbles ranging from .005 to .015" tall...I've been sanding the gelcoat down
> in an effort to see if I can break through them, but I am nervous as hell if
> what I'm doing is a bad idea...Is there any chemical that will remove
> Gelcoat and not hurt the substrate, or is the best method to actually just
> sand till ya can't sand no more???
>
>
> Anyway...my thought is to sand the wings down, but then I'm not really clear
> on what's going to keep the moisture from returning for good...it seems like
> baking the wings is a decent idea, though for now I'm not exactly sure how
> and at what temperature...Anyone's input will be appreciated...again, the
> worry is that if you go to all the trouble to sand things down to bare
> material, is there a way to assure that the bubbles don't come back in the
> future. My plan would be to re-finish with one of the PolyUrethane
> systems...So, time, temp, advice or chemicals!!!!
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Steve.
>
>
>
>

[Roy Bourgeois]

Steve:

Don't be in a hurry to do anything quick - except get the glider into a
warm dry environment and leave it alone for a while. I saw this problem on
some of the control surfaces of my old ASW-17 (which had been refinished
years earlier with Prestec). By the time I had finished re-doing one
aileron - the bubbles on the other one disappeared!

The problem seems to be related to a combination of cold + moisture - but
the bubbles (at least the tiny ones) are not necessarily permanent.

Good luck

Roy

[F.L. Whiteley]

If Steve normally keeps his DG in Western Washington, be aware that average
annual AM humidity is around 83% and average annual PM humidity is around
62% around Puget Sound. GRP will also accept moisture via osmosis and
there's no gel or moisture barrier inside. Long term I suspect gliders may
achieve some sort of equilibrium with their surroundings WRT to moisture
content. It would be interesting if someone has done an accurate W&B on the
same glider that's been at one of the more arid sites (<=10% average
relative humidity) for say 5 years, then moved to somewhere like western
Washington for 5 years and noted if there's any measurable change.
Depending on the airframe size and contruction type, I wouldn't be surprised
to see variances of 2-10lbs due to moisture content. I found a moisture
detection meter sites that indicate that 3% (not clear whether by mass or
volume) is high moisture content in GRP substrate. GRP type products
typically have a SG range of 1.2-1.9.

FWIW, I've seen a couple of gliders exhibit small localized bumps from
soaking wet trailer pads that vanished within 24 hours when dried, so unless
there's obvious permanent deformation or checking, it may not mean there's
debonding. I'm also aware of gliders that have had the gel severely damaged
by cold soaking followed thermal shock in a humid locale. I suppose if the
moisture goes through rapid phase state changes it could be damaging. I
found this interesting http://www.cerf.org/pdfs/collab/durability/3.pdf

Frank Whiteley

"Mark Zivley" > wrote in message
. com...
> The Gelcoat itself is slightly hygroscopic (sp?) and will therefore
> absorb and retain some amount of water. If you refinish with Urethane
> that issue should go away and you shouldn't need to worry about moisture
> permeating the composite structure.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Mark
>
> Steve Hill wrote:
> > After my nice flight last month in Mt. Rainier wave to 24k, my wings
have
> > turned into a blistered nightmare on the DG-400. I probably have 2,000
small
> > bubbles ranging from .005 to .015" tall...I've been sanding the gelcoat
down
> > in an effort to see if I can break through them, but I am nervous as
hell if
> > what I'm doing is a bad idea...Is there any chemical that will remove
> > Gelcoat and not hurt the substrate, or is the best method to actually
just
> > sand till ya can't sand no more???
> >
> >
> > Anyway...my thought is to sand the wings down, but then I'm not really
clear
> > on what's going to keep the moisture from returning for good...it seems
like
> > baking the wings is a decent idea, though for now I'm not exactly sure
how
> > and at what temperature...Anyone's input will be appreciated...again,
the
> > worry is that if you go to all the trouble to sand things down to bare
> > material, is there a way to assure that the bubbles don't come back in
the
> > future. My plan would be to re-finish with one of the PolyUrethane
> > systems...So, time, temp, advice or chemicals!!!!
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > Steve.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Brad]

I've got the same problem Steve does with my Apis. This is a brand new
glider with a brand new Prestec finish. We sprayed it on during the
winter of 2002, and by the winter of 2003 it had developed a nasty
rash of bubbles all along the LE of the wings and all over the
stabilizer. They mostly dissapeared the following summer, but are
starting to reappear now that the winter is here.

Oh well.......sigh.......!

Brad
199AP





"F.L. Whiteley" > wrote in message >...
> If Steve normally keeps his DG in Western Washington, be aware that average
> annual AM humidity is around 83% and average annual PM humidity is around
> 62% around Puget Sound. GRP will also accept moisture via osmosis and
> there's no gel or moisture barrier inside. Long term I suspect gliders may
> achieve some sort of equilibrium with their surroundings WRT to moisture
> content. It would be interesting if someone has done an accurate W&B on the
> same glider that's been at one of the more arid sites (<=10% average
> relative humidity) for say 5 years, then moved to somewhere like western
> Washington for 5 years and noted if there's any measurable change.
> Depending on the airframe size and contruction type, I wouldn't be surprised
> to see variances of 2-10lbs due to moisture content. I found a moisture
> detection meter sites that indicate that 3% (not clear whether by mass or
> volume) is high moisture content in GRP substrate. GRP type products
> typically have a SG range of 1.2-1.9.
>
> FWIW, I've seen a couple of gliders exhibit small localized bumps from
> soaking wet trailer pads that vanished within 24 hours when dried, so unless
> there's obvious permanent deformation or checking, it may not mean there's
> debonding. I'm also aware of gliders that have had the gel severely damaged
> by cold soaking followed thermal shock in a humid locale. I suppose if the
> moisture goes through rapid phase state changes it could be damaging. I
> found this interesting http://www.cerf.org/pdfs/collab/durability/3.pdf
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
> "Mark Zivley" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > The Gelcoat itself is slightly hygroscopic (sp?) and will therefore
> > absorb and retain some amount of water. If you refinish with Urethane
> > that issue should go away and you shouldn't need to worry about moisture
> > permeating the composite structure.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > Steve Hill wrote:
> > > After my nice flight last month in Mt. Rainier wave to 24k, my wings
> have
> > > turned into a blistered nightmare on the DG-400. I probably have 2,000
> small
> > > bubbles ranging from .005 to .015" tall...I've been sanding the gelcoat
> down
> > > in an effort to see if I can break through them, but I am nervous as
> hell if
> > > what I'm doing is a bad idea...Is there any chemical that will remove
> > > Gelcoat and not hurt the substrate, or is the best method to actually
> just
> > > sand till ya can't sand no more???
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyway...my thought is to sand the wings down, but then I'm not really
> clear
> > > on what's going to keep the moisture from returning for good...it seems
> like
> > > baking the wings is a decent idea, though for now I'm not exactly sure
> how
> > > and at what temperature...Anyone's input will be appreciated...again,
> the
> > > worry is that if you go to all the trouble to sand things down to bare
> > > material, is there a way to assure that the bubbles don't come back in
> the
> > > future. My plan would be to re-finish with one of the PolyUrethane
> > > systems...So, time, temp, advice or chemicals!!!!
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >

[TomnKeyLargo]

I have had a glider that when it got below 32 it developed goose bumps all over
the wings. This was during the early 80's. The factory sent over folks to see
this after they saw the pictures. It was found that when they sprayed the gel
coat into the wing molds that mosture was present in the air compressure and
the filtering system they were using was not getting all the mosture out. They
took the glider back, and I got a brand new one. One of the few times that the
factory stood up for its product. Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, # 711.

[goneill]

The way to fix them down is to drill a tiny hole at each end of the
bubble just big enough to allow a hyperdermic syringe with resin in
,inject resin in one end till it comes out the other ,put a small bag of
sand
over a piece of peel ply cloth (to absorb excess resin )over the bubble.
when set,remove peelply and fine sand any residual resin.
This should permanently adhere the skin surface down to the substrate
gary
"Steve Hill" > wrote in message
...
> After my nice flight last month in Mt. Rainier wave to 24k, my wings have
> turned into a blistered nightmare on the DG-400. I probably have 2,000
> small
> bubbles ranging from .005 to .015" tall...I've been sanding the gelcoat
> down
> in an effort to see if I can break through them, but I am nervous as hell
> if
> what I'm doing is a bad idea...Is there any chemical that will remove
> Gelcoat and not hurt the substrate, or is the best method to actually just
> sand till ya can't sand no more???
>
>
> Anyway...my thought is to sand the wings down, but then I'm not really
> clear
> on what's going to keep the moisture from returning for good...it seems
> like
> baking the wings is a decent idea, though for now I'm not exactly sure how
> and at what temperature...Anyone's input will be appreciated...again, the
> worry is that if you go to all the trouble to sand things down to bare
> material, is there a way to assure that the bubbles don't come back in the
> future. My plan would be to re-finish with one of the PolyUrethane
> systems...So, time, temp, advice or chemicals!!!!
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Steve.
>
>
>
>

[Mark Zivley]

On a slightly different note, it's been seen several times at our club
that it's really BAD to move a glider that's been in a very dry climate
to a very humid climate, particularly if it's older gelcoat. The
absorption of moisture seems to be the key to having the gel coat come
off in LARGE chunks during the year or so after it's been in the moist
environment.

[Robin Birch]

For what it's worth
We have an on going discussion in my club (in the UK where in winter it
is cold and DAMP) about storing aircraft to avoid osmosis and bumps.
One of our club syndicates have kept a discus for some years and are now
keeping a ventus without any trouble by completely sealing a the trailer
vents and installing an industrial grade de-humidifier within the
trailer. This is permanently connected to power, it only uses a few
pounds worth of electric every year and so is well worth the cost.

Regards

Robin

In message >, Steve Hill
> writes
>After my nice flight last month in Mt. Rainier wave to 24k, my wings have
>turned into a blistered nightmare on the DG-400. I probably have 2,000 small
>bubbles ranging from .005 to .015" tall...I've been sanding the gelcoat down
>in an effort to see if I can break through them, but I am nervous as hell if
>what I'm doing is a bad idea...Is there any chemical that will remove
>Gelcoat and not hurt the substrate, or is the best method to actually just
>sand till ya can't sand no more???
>
>
>Anyway...my thought is to sand the wings down, but then I'm not really clear
>on what's going to keep the moisture from returning for good...it seems like
>baking the wings is a decent idea, though for now I'm not exactly sure how
>and at what temperature...Anyone's input will be appreciated...again, the
>worry is that if you go to all the trouble to sand things down to bare
>material, is there a way to assure that the bubbles don't come back in the
>future. My plan would be to re-finish with one of the PolyUrethane
>systems...So, time, temp, advice or chemicals!!!!
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Steve.
>
>
>
>

--
Robin Birch

[Doug Hoffman]

In article >,
Robin Birch > wrote:

> For what it's worth
> We have an on going discussion in my club (in the UK where in winter it
> is cold and DAMP) about storing aircraft to avoid osmosis and bumps.
> One of our club syndicates have kept a discus for some years and are now
> keeping a ventus without any trouble by completely sealing a the trailer
> vents and installing an industrial grade de-humidifier within the
> trailer. This is permanently connected to power, it only uses a few
> pounds worth of electric every year and so is well worth the cost.

Yes. I've been doing that for years. Except I find that a cheap (about
$150 US) standard-issue dehumidifier does the trick. But this is only
for when I bring the glider home to work on. Normally it is in a hangar
(glider in trailer, trailer in hangar) and doesn't seem to require the
dehumidifier there. If I were to keep my glider in the trailer, trailer
outside, during the hot and dry summer months I might be a bit concerned
about inside trailer temps without open vents. Not sure. I agree with
your energy use observation. I couldn't detect an increase looking at
my billing statements. Not that I would care much even if I could.

Regards,

-Doug (in often very wet Michigan)