Cheap sailplanes

[tango4]

The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily halt
the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a few
percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian

[Bill Daniels]

"tango4" > wrote in message
...
> The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
> the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we
> could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline
> in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.
>
> I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry
> into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came
up
> with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily
halt
> the decline.
>
> In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a
> gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.
>
> Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
> dingies.
>
> Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each
> year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest
of
> the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
> just sufficient.
>
> Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
> rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few
> percent.
>
> Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
> dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
> leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
> youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the
> old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
> on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
> wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
> old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.
>
> We need a new approach.
>
> Ian
>

I'll second that.

Maybe take a look at what the Europeans are doing. They seem to attract a
lot of youth to soaring.

Bill Daniels

[Bert Willing]

I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all this
2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and those
"because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts have to
be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
> the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
> we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
> decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.
>
> I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
> entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we
> came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
> temporarily halt the decline.
>
> In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
> a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.
>
> Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
> dingies.
>
> Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
> each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the
> rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
> scholarships, just sufficient.
>
> Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
> rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
> few percent.
>
> Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
> dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
> leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
> youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
> the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
> member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
> baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
> 21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if
> you ask me.
>
> We need a new approach.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
>

[Michel Talon]

Bert Willing > wrote:
> I absolutely agree with you.
> There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all this
> 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
> population.
> And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
> skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
> to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
> any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
> money for anyways.

And you live in a completely unrealistic world. In our world in Europe,
the vast majority of youngsters don't have the money for skiing, horse
riding, etc. Anyways my kids didn't have the money to do anything of
that sort, and still i have a reasonably good job, and so does my wife.
You should stop thinking anyone is a medical doctor or a lawyer earning
several hundred thousand dollars a year. Another thing i can add is that
when i was young myself i could afford flying gliders, and even power
flying. Things have considerably degraded, and your arguments that even
with zero cost, gliding would continue do decline is complete bull****.



--

Michel TALON

[Peter Seddon]

"Bert Willing" > wrote in
message ...
>I absolutely agree with you.
> There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
> this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
> soaring population.
> And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
> skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
> to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
> any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
> the money for anyways.
>
> As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
> time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
> those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
> have to be dumped...
>
> --
> Bert Willing
>
> ASW20 "TW"
>
>
> "tango4" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
>> The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
>> the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
>> we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
>> decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.
>>
>> I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
>> entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
>> we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
>> temporarily halt the decline.
>>
>> In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
>> joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.
>>
>> Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
>> dingies.
>>
>> Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
>> each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the
>> rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
>> scholarships, just sufficient.
>>
>> Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
>> rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
>> few percent.
>>
>> Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
>> dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
>> leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
>> youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
>> the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
>> member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
>> baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
>> 21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if
>> you ask me.
>>
>> We need a new approach.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is VERY
frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last three
years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club so
if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a gliding
club, until you can fly solo!!!

Peter.

Pilatus B4

[Kilo Charlie]

Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

Soaring is not much of a spectator sport but one small part of the
visibility has been taken away in the name of safety (aka liability) in the
US by a push to totally abolish low finishes. It is clear with the sold out
status of the UK Smokin Vids and the fact that the UK Junior Soaring Team
has so much fun with these finishes that it is interesting to young pilots
and spectators. I'm not advocating a "Redbull" type of approach to it but
the safety/liability issue has grown out of control in the US. For some
reason soaring has attracted more than its share of curmudgeons. Sports
like hang gliding with their speed courses for example, have taken the step
to make themselves more visible to the folks on the ground.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[Bill Daniels]

"Peter Seddon" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bert Willing" > wrote in
> message ...
> >I absolutely agree with you.
> > There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
> > this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
> > soaring population.
> > And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
> > skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
fancies
> > to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring,
not
> > any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
> > the money for anyways.
> >
> > As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
> > time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
> > those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
> > have to be dumped...
> >
> > --
> > Bert Willing
> >
> > ASW20 "TW"
> >
> >
> > "tango4" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> > ...
> >> The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some
of
> >> the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that
if
> >> we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
> >> decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.
> >>
> >> I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
> >> entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
> >> we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
> >> temporarily halt the decline.
> >>
> >> In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
> >> joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.
> >>
> >> Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting

> >> dingies.
> >>
> >> Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
> >> each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by
the
> >> rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
> >> scholarships, just sufficient.
> >>
> >> Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the
conversion
> >> rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
> >> few percent.
> >>
> >> Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever
have
> >> dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
> >> leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
> >> youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking
with
> >> the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
> >> member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
> >> baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
> >> 21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
if
> >> you ask me.
> >>
> >> We need a new approach.
> >>
> >> Ian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is
VERY
> frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last
three
> years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club
so
> if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
> precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
> membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
> having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
> you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
> what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a
gliding
> club, until you can fly solo!!!
>
> Peter.
>
> Pilatus B4
>
>

Go watch Hellingvliegen (Dune gliding) by Nistal Wloczysiak a 17 year old
Dutch Videographer. They winch launch an open cockpit T-31b in the dead of
winter to ridge soar the dunes on the Dutch coast. It's one beautiful
video. Weather isn't stopping youth from participating.

I see plenty of young people that LOVE gliding but can't afford it even with
their parents solid support.

We need to offer youth winch launch and other cost reduction avenues.
Wringing our hands and whining that the sky is falling isn't solving the
problem.

We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.

Bill Daniels

[Robert Ehrlich]

Peter Seddon wrote:
> ...
> ... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
> our beck and call.
> ...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

[tango4]

I'll throw something else into the pot here. The golf club I'm a member of
has a golf gaademy on site. Youngsters of 15 to 16 with handicaps of 10 and
under can apply to join the academy for a year. At the end of which the can
acheive 2 'A' Level credits. These are accepted as credit towards a place at
university with a view to careers in sports management. Is this sort of
thing a possible source of future soaring pilots? How about gliding as an
optional high school subject?

Kids are under pressure to gain an education, offering a year of flying and
ground training with a tangible benefit in front of them may prove to be
irresistable and we all know that once the bug bites it bites hard. Flying
does offer benefits in terms of personal development, discipline, decision
making, planning. These could be sold as the foundation pieces to several
careers to education authorities if our controlling bodies were given the
brief to do so.

Ian

[F.L. Whiteley]

"tango4" > wrote in message
...
> The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
> the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we
> could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline
> in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.
>
I think it might well lower the churn rate. Unlike the PW5, I think many
clubs would want one.

> I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry
> into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came
up
> with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily
halt
> the decline.
>
I don't think so either. It's the effort involved. IIRC the economic input
to Maine(?) from snow mobiling activities is $800M/year. A couple of family
snow mobiles on a trailer give nearly instant thrills (and the possibility
of mayhem) without the effort of learning and licensing. In the summer,
substitute jet skis.

> In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a
> gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.
>
I think golfing here runs more than soaring, especially at the local country
clubs. They pay a lot for water.

> Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
> dingies.
>
Memberships on the few lakes we have locally are easily more than I spend on
soaring all year. But this is a desert and lakes are rare. Can't land a
float plane on water in Colorado either.

> Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each
> year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest
of
> the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
> just sufficient.
>
Soaring scholarships. Interesting topic. I know of one glider club that
gave soaring scholarships, it generated several members from the local
school and parents, created animosity, but was, in the end, rather
unsuccessful in achieving the desired goals. It was also the organizational
effort of a single member, with funds from several members. That member was
taken out of soaring by his SO, and the program stagnated. Another club has
a performance based program. Apply, get accepted, work for credits, perform
or get the boot. By perform, get license, get commercial, give rides, get
instructor rating, instruct, be the future. I think this may be the better
way forward, a mentored, value-added approach.

> Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
> rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few
> percent.
>
It's been my experience in two countries that people who take rides also are
likely to have taken a balloon flight, perhaps a dual parachute jump, and a
spin in on a performance race car track. They may have even take a glider
flight 20 years ago, but they are not prospects. Our 3-flight mini-course
acts as sort of a pre-screening process. Those who are really interested
try these. Unlike a power sampler, where a given result is repeatable, you
might need those three flights to set the hook. A single flight is
generally a bit of a blur. Our chief instructor thinks we should just give
the three lessons, but I think one flight should really be an extended
soaring opportunity. That's what brings them back. I'm the only exception
I know for sure. I took a one flight sampler 30 years ago, but the pilot
kept us up for 55mins in very marginal conditions. Had she other customers
waiting, we'd have been back sooner. Had it been a sled ride, I might never
have returned, however I'd already read of Striedeck's flight in NG and
Wolter's Once Upon a Thermal, so I was already a seeker. When I finally got
around to seeking training, I was attracted by a simple black on pink A4
poster in the RAF Mildenhall post office that stated simply, "If you can
drive a car, we reckon you can fly a glider", with a graphic of the SHK I
later flew.

> Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
> dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
> leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
> youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the
> old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
> on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
> wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
> old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.
>
Flying has also been de-mystified in the jet era, as many of these same
youth have flown internationally. Many tune into the movies and never even
look out of the window. However, yes, clubs can be run be, and are, run by
their junior members.

> We need a new approach.
>
Old fart greybeard, with glider on display, jumps out in front of a group of
likely looking college undergrad snowboarders, points, and states
emphatically, "Soaring will change your life". At least one of that group,
after going from ab-initio to switched on glider instructor, has now
completed BPT for the USN and is headed for next school and carrier duty.
He has never forgotten that day, and soaring has changed his life.

Frank Whiteley

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Kilo Charlie" > wrote in message
news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
> Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have
nothing
> to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.
>
> I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
> survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
> nevertheless that alone will not save it.
>
> It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
> countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by
watching
> others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy
and
> go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?
>
> Soaring is not much of a spectator sport but one small part of the
> visibility has been taken away in the name of safety (aka liability) in
the
> US by a push to totally abolish low finishes. It is clear with the sold
out
> status of the UK Smokin Vids and the fact that the UK Junior Soaring Team
> has so much fun with these finishes that it is interesting to young pilots
> and spectators. I'm not advocating a "Redbull" type of approach to it but
> the safety/liability issue has grown out of control in the US. For some
> reason soaring has attracted more than its share of curmudgeons. Sports
> like hang gliding with their speed courses for example, have taken the
step
> to make themselves more visible to the folks on the ground.
>
> Casey Lenox
> KC
> Phoenix
>
I'm not aware that it's had any impact on the growth of HG from all
indications.

[Peter Seddon]

"Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Seddon wrote:
>> ...
>> ... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
>> our beck and call.
>> ...
>
> Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
> and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
> imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
> or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
> satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
> of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
> when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
> which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
> one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
> short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home field,
> until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
> glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
> what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
> sport is declining.

You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been so
bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the two
seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My caravan had
a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we only flew for
three. When I look at my log book for the past four years the number of
flights have decereased each year and I have my own aircraft. Our club is
restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't fly with a 1000ft
ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen snow for a great
number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the 52 flying weekends
last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to familly committments and
about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the reason gliding is declining
for new members, people loose interest through lack of flying weather. The
UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet winters, days like last
Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very few and far between.

Peter.

[Peter Seddon]

"Kilo Charlie" > wrote in message
news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
> Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have
> nothing
> to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.

Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of cheap gliders was
responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in the UK the bad flying
weather over the past three years has put paid to more of our members than
anything else.

> I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
> survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
> nevertheless that alone will not save it.

Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay us £130 for a years
membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how cheap do you want it to
be.

> It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
> countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by
> watching
> others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy
> and
> go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

I can agree with that!!! But I had great fun throwing my B4 about the sky
trying to loose the last 5k feet. You dont get that with an XBox.

Peter.

[Bill Daniels]

"Peter Seddon" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Ehrlich" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Peter Seddon wrote:
> >> ...
> >> ... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
> >> our beck and call.
> >> ...
> >
> > Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
> > and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
> > imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
> > or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
> > satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
> > of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
> > when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
> > which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
> > one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
> > short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home
field,
> > until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
> > glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
> > what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
> > sport is declining.
>
> You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been
so
> bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the
two
> seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My caravan
had
> a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we only flew for
> three. When I look at my log book for the past four years the number of
> flights have decereased each year and I have my own aircraft. Our club is
> restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't fly with a 1000ft
> ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen snow for a great
> number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the 52 flying
weekends
> last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to familly committments and
> about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the reason gliding is declining
> for new members, people loose interest through lack of flying weather. The
> UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet winters, days like last
> Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very few and far between.
>
> Peter.
>
>

OK, I sympathize. Weather in dear old England is dreadful. I think Al
McDonald has been saying that for years. It's been a pretty wet year here
in Colorado, USA too.

OTOH, this Tuesday I towed from a snow covered runway into wave. At 18,000
feet, I had my finger on the mike button to call Denver Center for clearance
into the wave window. Before I transmitted the call, I checked the OAT. It
was -22F - pretty much the limit for gellcoat.

The wings were condensing frost right out of the supersaturated, supercooled
air. The canopy was 50% frosted over. (Yes, there really is such a thing
as clear air icing.) I asked the student to check spoilers and it took three
huge efforts to get them unlocked from the ice. I thought about landing a
spoilerless G103 on a snow covered runway with water hazards and decided
this wasn't the day so I didn't make the radio call. We didn't get rid of
the ice until below 9,000.

Ah well, the sun is shining and tomorrow should be warmer yet.

Bill Daniels

[Kilo Charlie]

> Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of cheap gliders was
> responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in the UK the bad flying
> weather over the past three years has put paid to more of our members than
> anything else.

Mostly my comment was meant for the usual/typical "anti-racing" post another
person made. It seems like there needs to be little provocation for some
folks feeling the need to diss anyone that wants to leave the pattern. To
each his/her own I say.

> Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay us £130 for a years
> membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how cheap do you want it to
> be.

Wow! That is pretty cheap...much cheaper than I had been lead to believe
about UK clubs. Then again with the current exchange rate it may be a bit
more than at first glance! ;-)

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
"tango4" > wrote:

> I'll throw something else into the pot here. The golf club I'm a member of
> has a golf gaademy on site. Youngsters of 15 to 16 with handicaps of 10 and
> under can apply to join the academy for a year. At the end of which the can
> acheive 2 'A' Level credits. These are accepted as credit towards a place at
> university with a view to careers in sports management. Is this sort of
> thing a possible source of future soaring pilots? How about gliding as an
> optional high school subject?

Something like this may now be possible here in New Zealand. The
new(ish) NCEA structure allows credits for activities outside school. I
understand that things such as drama and dance and music are in the
process of being put into the system.

We already have a pretty good and well-organized syllabus in gliding,
with well defined acheivements and goals. It probably wouldn't be a
huge effort to get into the NCEA system.

I have a 14 year old daughter who I've taken gliding a few times --
though not for three or four years (and not because I don't offer). I
ran a straw poll past her and some friends. The response: "We could
learn to fly instead of doing geography? Cooooool!"

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[Steve Hill]

I continue to believe that the answer to building soaring has mainly to do
with making it more convenient. The other thing I believe is that one of the
very best things we, as sailplane pilots do is solve problems...I tend to
agree with some of the commentary on here that we just don't show enough of
how cool our sport is...the low finishes ARE cool...and occasionally someone
will get hurt...but damn are they fun!!! To this day, most of my flights end
in a low pass and quick circuit...one day it might get me...but for now, it
adds to my enjoyment and everyone who sees that sort of finish
goes..."Wow....I want to do that too..."

Not sure that's good or bad, but it definitely happens. The other thought
is, that I don't think it's the cost of the sailplane that's prohibitive, I
think it's the whole package...club fees/dues, tows, insurance, equipment,
etc...You guys can pontificate all day about how a cheap simple glider is
going to build the sport and I for one don't buy it. The first time the guy
with the new low cost glider sets off to try to accomplish some goal and a
buddy follows in a 30 year old "Old" glider and blows the living doors off
the new guy...the whole theory of new=better...starts to sink in...as...BS

If I've seen one consistent thing amongst young new prospective sailplane
types, its that they have a tough time justifying all the expense, for the
limited amount of time they get to participate ....weekends...April till
October...but for a few places in the U.S. that's a fairly common thing. So
we really come down to competing with EVERY other interesting thrill-seeking
venue out there. And quite frankly most of the rest of them are neater to
watch on TV...than ours...There's something quite simple in human nature,
that dictates that if you can watch it on TV...and then participate at any
level...you sorta get to live the experience twice. I watch my growing sons
watch surfing, snowboarding, skiing, golf, tennis...just about
everything...I think we ought to concentrate on finding a venue to air our
sport on TV...somehow. Anyone know anybody involved with WINGS?? Or any of
the extreme sport shows...?? I've got some amazing Video footage that really
looks cool...we just need a venue to get it seen by a bigger audience...

It seems we ought to try to figure out ways to get our sport seen by more
eyeballs...and make sure that what people see...is cool...WAY COOL DUDE!!!!

(imagining the following extreme sport show)

Bitchin Surfer Dude pilot 1: "So there I was dude....going up in this
bitchin wave....and whoa....I was like....this is totally gnarly dude...so I
just put the nose down and flew two hundred miles....It was awesome!!!!!

Bitchin Surfer Dude pilot2: "Whoa....I was like ...right behind him...and
then he was like...gone dude....hair on fire and movin out 140 miles an
hour....I went after him...and WE ROCKED!!!"



Okay...well....perhaps I went too far...suffice to say, we need more
eyeballs more exposure and we definitely need to adjust our view as to who
our target audience is, and define a demographic...for the pursuit of fresh
meat....for our sport...


Methinks.



Steve.

[Mike Lindsay]

>
>Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
>dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
>leisure time and even more money.

Not sure about more leisure time. People seem to have to work harder
than they did 30 years ago.

>Flying has to become something that
>youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
>old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
>on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
>wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
>old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.
>
Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the average age of the
members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70. It may be slightly
younger at weekends, but not by very much.

>We need a new approach.
>
>Ian
>
>
>
>

--
Mike Lindsay

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:22:40 GMT, "Bill Daniels" >
wrote:

>
>
>We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
>interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
>few really love soaring.
>
>We need to stop driving them away.
>
Extremely well said, Bill.

Lennie (Surprised?)

[Peter Seddon]

"Kilo Charlie" > wrote in message
news:2V4sd.19808$KO5.17949@fed1read02...
>
>> Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of cheap gliders was
>> responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in the UK the bad flying
>> weather over the past three years has put paid to more of our members
>> than
>> anything else.
>
> Mostly my comment was meant for the usual/typical "anti-racing" post
> another
> person made. It seems like there needs to be little provocation for some
> folks feeling the need to diss anyone that wants to leave the pattern. To
> each his/her own I say.
>
>> Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay us £130 for a years
>> membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how cheap do you want it
>> to
>> be.
>
> Wow! That is pretty cheap...much cheaper than I had been lead to believe
> about UK clubs. Then again with the current exchange rate it may be a bit
> more than at first glance! ;-)
>
> Casey Lenox
> KC
> Phoenix
>
>
>

Dont get me wrong not all clubs are as inexpensive as ours, some do charge
an arm and a leg, but to be fair the also provide a lot more bang for your
buck.

Peter

[Chris Davison]

Chaps...you're missing the point. Gliding is not in
decline because it is expensive, nor is it the British
weather. Paragliding in the UK costs £125 a day to
learn, and after about 10 days you have your 'club
pilot' rating and can fly solo..you then spend about
£3,000 on harness, wing, reserve and vario etc, and
maybe on average £1000 a year upgrading that kit as
it wears out or becomes unfashionable. The costs above
are easily in line with gliding. This year, despite
the worst weather on record, PG schools are turning
new pupils away. There is only one factor which stops
gliding being as successful as Paragliding....IMAGE.

The image of the average UK gliding club is being full
of old people in wooden gliders...the image of paragliding
is young, daredevils jumping off hills. Neither image
is correct...but it's perception that matters.

If you want gliding to prosper (and I would suggest
many pilots don't actually want the sport to go through
the transformation required) then we need a Red Bull
or Nike or Sky Sports to take gliding, tear up the
reality and change the image...and then we need clubs
to sell that image to the public.

Until people grasp this, all the talk of 'better World
Class gliders' and 'cheap winch launches' is meaningless.


Me? My kids (10, 14 and 18) have no desire to go gliding,
it's what their dad does...but wow, do they want to
do the stuff they see on TV.

Nuff said.

Chris




At 22:00 03 December 2004, Peter Seddon wrote:
>
>'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
>news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
>> Interesting argument. Also interesting responses
>>some of which have
>> nothing
>> to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy
>>winter lurkers.
>
>Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of
>cheap gliders was
>responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in
>the UK the bad flying
>weather over the past three years has put paid to more
>of our members than
>anything else.
>
>> I agree with you. Soaring has to be 'cool' again
>>in order to have it
>> survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat
>>wouldn't help but
>> nevertheless that alone will not save it.
>
>Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay
>us £130 for a years
>membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how
>cheap do you want it to
>be.
>
>> It is an instant gratification world out there. Why
>>should a kid spend
>> countless hours learning how to do something and paying
>>the dues by
>> watching
>> others do it in front of them when they can get out
>>the X-box or Gameboy
>> and
>> go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?
>
>I can agree with that!!! But I had great fun throwing
>my B4 about the sky
>trying to loose the last 5k feet. You dont get that
>with an XBox.
>
>Peter.
>
>
>

[Ralph Jones]

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:28:05 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley"
> wrote:

[snip]
>>
>Old fart greybeard, with glider on display, jumps out in front of a group of
>likely looking college undergrad snowboarders, points, and states
>emphatically, "Soaring will change your life". At least one of that group,
>after going from ab-initio to switched on glider instructor, has now
>completed BPT for the USN and is headed for next school and carrier duty.
>He has never forgotten that day, and soaring has changed his life.
>
How are things going for Dillon? I heard the Navy flight training
bases were shut down by hurricanes.

rj

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:18:36 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
> wrote:


>I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
>what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
>sport is declining.

It's not about putting a ball into a basket or hitting it with a piece
of wood.
It's about the girls watching you do that.

How many girls watched your low saves and wanted your phone number
after you had managed to get home?

;)




Bye
Andreas

[Ventus B]

"Kilo Charlie" > wrote in message news:<yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02>...
> Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have nothing
> to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.
>
> I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
> survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
> nevertheless that alone will not save it.
>
> It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
> countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by watching
> others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy and
> go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?
>
> Soaring is not much of a spectator sport but one small part of the
> visibility has been taken away in the name of safety (aka liability) in the
> US by a push to totally abolish low finishes. It is clear with the sold out
> status of the UK Smokin Vids and the fact that the UK Junior Soaring Team
> has so much fun with these finishes that it is interesting to young pilots
> and spectators. I'm not advocating a "Redbull" type of approach to it but
> the safety/liability issue has grown out of control in the US. For some
> reason soaring has attracted more than its share of curmudgeons. Sports
> like hang gliding with their speed courses for example, have taken the step
> to make themselves more visible to the folks on the ground.
>
> Casey Lenox
> KC
> Phoenix

Mr. Lenox nailed one of the unfortunate aspects of modern American
life: The proliferation of trial lawyers and frivolous lawsuits.
It's a shame that personal liability now factors into every aspect of
our lives, including soaring. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for
sensible and appropriate safety precautions, just against the "tax" on
most goods, services, and leisure activity due to liability lawsuits.
As to Soaring attracting curmudgeons, my guess is that probably those
very same curmudgeons used to be the younger low-finish pilots. They
just got older and more seasoned.
Respectfully,

[Roger Worden]

"Steve Hill" > wrote in message
...
>I think we ought to concentrate on finding a venue to air our
> sport on TV...somehow. Anyone know anybody involved with WINGS??

From AOPA ePilot today:

DISCOVERY CHANNEL TURNS IN ITS WINGS
Discovery Communications will, on January 10, rename its Discovery Wings
Channel the Military Channel. Stories will focus on the troops, their
equipment, the Iraq war, and a behind-the-scenes look at actual military
operations. The channel won't abandon aviation forever, however. It will
still cover topics like military jet fighters (a show scheduled for January
28) and the world-famous Blue Angels flight demonstration team (scheduled
for March 18).

[Roger Worden]

> It seems we ought to try to figure out ways to get our sport seen by more
> eyeballs...and make sure that what people see...is cool...WAY COOL
DUDE!!!!

That seems to be a tough nut to crack. How can we get mass-media exposure
without buying it? Orgs like SSA certainly don't have the funds to buy air
time. Paid ads on popular Internet sites with links to exciting video would
probably attract a lot of eyeballs, but I have no idea what that would cost.

I do NOT recomend trying to go down the path that parachuting is taking.
Have you seen their new competition format - I think it's called
"skimming" - where they negotiate a ground-level course just before landing?
It seems destined to attract the kind of "extreme sports" spectators that
only want to see crashes, and I think that's a terrible image to cultivate
for any branch of aviation.

Roger

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Ralph Jones" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:28:05 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley"
> > wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >>
> >Old fart greybeard, with glider on display, jumps out in front of a group
of
> >likely looking college undergrad snowboarders, points, and states
> >emphatically, "Soaring will change your life". At least one of that
group,
> >after going from ab-initio to switched on glider instructor, has now
> >completed BPT for the USN and is headed for next school and carrier duty.
> >He has never forgotten that day, and soaring has changed his life.
> >
> How are things going for Dillon? I heard the Navy flight training
> bases were shut down by hurricanes.
>
> rj
Graduated 4th (the other CFI-G, Austin 1st) in same class. Headed for E2/C2
school, however, the turboprops are being replaced with jets, so he's likely
headed for jet school first. Last I heard there's a good chance he'll be
around for a visit before
Christmas, then home before returning for the next training phase.

In the meantime, they've been flying the ASW-19 out of Refugio Soaring
Circle.

fw

[Brad]

who would be prouder to hear this Joeseph Goebbles or George Orwell?

Brad



"Roger Worden" > wrote in message >...
> "Steve Hill" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I think we ought to concentrate on finding a venue to air our
> > sport on TV...somehow. Anyone know anybody involved with WINGS??
>
> From AOPA ePilot today:
>
> DISCOVERY CHANNEL TURNS IN ITS WINGS
> Discovery Communications will, on January 10, rename its Discovery Wings
> Channel the Military Channel. Stories will focus on the troops, their
> equipment, the Iraq war, and a behind-the-scenes look at actual military
> operations. The channel won't abandon aviation forever, however. It will
> still cover topics like military jet fighters (a show scheduled for January
> 28) and the world-famous Blue Angels flight demonstration team (scheduled
> for March 18).

[tango4]

>
> I have a 14 year old daughter who I've taken gliding a few times --
> though not for three or four years (and not because I don't offer). I
> ran a straw poll past her and some friends. The response: "We could
> learn to fly instead of doing geography? Cooooool!"
>
> --
> Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
> Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

and what's really cool is that they get to learn some practical geography,
mathematics and physics without even realising it!

Ian

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
"tango4" > wrote:
> > I have a 14 year old daughter who I've taken gliding a few times --
> > though not for three or four years (and not because I don't offer). I
> > ran a straw poll past her and some friends. The response: "We could
> > learn to fly instead of doing geography? Cooooool!"
>
> and what's really cool is that they get to learn some practical geography,
> mathematics and physics without even realising it!

Yes indeed :-)

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[[email protected]]

At the risk of embarrassment, at a college dance I was spouting off
about how I had soloed an Aeronca Champ in 11 hours of dual
during my 11th grade.

Then I found out she had soloed an Aeronca Champ in 7 hours of
dual during high school.

It must have worked a little bit, though. That was 40 years ago,
and she's still here.

Andreas Maurer wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:18:36 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
> wrote:
>
>
>>I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
>>what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
>>sport is declining.
>
>It's not about putting a ball into a basket or hitting it with a piece
>of wood.
>It's about the girls watching you do that.
>
>How many girls watched your low saves and wanted your phone number
>after you had managed to get home?
>
>;)
>
>
>
>
>Bye
>Andreas

[Chris OCallaghan]

Brand,

George wouldn't be proud. Saddened perhaps. Alas, 1984 came and went
and no one's the wiser. Of course, that was the point of book. If you
enjoyed 1984, you might read his short essay... "Shooting an
Elephant." I'm sure you can google it up. We don't give Orwell nearly
enough credit, thinking of him more a sci fi writer than the keen
social observer he was.

I guess what's truly disheartening is that we keep making the same
mistakes. The least we can do is make new ones, if for nothing other
than variety's sake.

What has this to do with gliding? Some of you will get it.

Gotta go. Time to feed the proles.





(Brad) wrote in message >...
> who would be prouder to hear this Joeseph Goebbles or George Orwell?
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> "Roger Worden" > wrote in message >...
> > "Steve Hill" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >I think we ought to concentrate on finding a venue to air our
> > > sport on TV...somehow. Anyone know anybody involved with WINGS??
> >
> > From AOPA ePilot today:
> >
> > DISCOVERY CHANNEL TURNS IN ITS WINGS
> > Discovery Communications will, on January 10, rename its Discovery Wings
> > Channel the Military Channel. Stories will focus on the troops, their
> > equipment, the Iraq war, and a behind-the-scenes look at actual military
> > operations. The channel won't abandon aviation forever, however. It will
> > still cover topics like military jet fighters (a show scheduled for January
> > 28) and the world-famous Blue Angels flight demonstration team (scheduled
> > for March 18).

[Stewart Kissel]

Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
don't know it.

Soaring ain't going to become 'cool' anytime soon,
and I am not so sure it was in its heyday. So rather
then battling the fact that lumpy white old guys in
funny looking clothes are not a marketing tool...why
not examine who might be interested in an 'uncool'
activity.

The hang-glider population is not getting any younger,
and their landing gears continue to wear out...this
group seems to be making their way to sailplanes on
their own.

Software engineers seem to also be finding their way
to the sport...and the reality of the modern instrument
panel probably intrigues many of them.

I don't see young, fit skiers, snowboarders, parachutists,
cyclists as particularly fertile recruiting ground.


And once the vid-game generation comes of age...things
will probably get even quieter at the glider port.




At 15:00 04 December 2004, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:
>Brand,
>
>George wouldn't be proud. Saddened perhaps. Alas, 1984
>came and went
>and no one's the wiser. Of course, that was the point
>of book. If you
>enjoyed 1984, you might read his short essay... 'Shooting
>an
>Elephant.' I'm sure you can google it up. We don't
>give Orwell nearly
>enough credit, thinking of him more a sci fi writer
>than the keen
>social observer he was.
>
>I guess what's truly disheartening is that we keep
>making the same
>mistakes. The least we can do is make new ones, if
>for nothing other
>than variety's sake.
>
>What has this to do with gliding? Some of you will
>get it.
>
>Gotta go. Time to feed the proles.
>
>
>
>
>
(Brad) wrote in message news:...
>> who would be prouder to hear this Joeseph Goebbles
>>or George Orwell?
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>> 'Roger Worden' wrote in message news:...
>> > 'Steve Hill' wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >I think we ought to concentrate on finding a venue
>>>>to air our
>> > > sport on TV...somehow. Anyone know anybody involved
>>>>with WINGS??
>> >
>> > From AOPA ePilot today:
>> >
>> > DISCOVERY CHANNEL TURNS IN ITS WINGS
>> > Discovery Communications will, on January 10, rename
>>>its Discovery Wings
>> > Channel the Military Channel. Stories will focus
>>>on the troops, their
>> > equipment, the Iraq war, and a behind-the-scenes
>>>look at actual military
>> > operations. The channel won't abandon aviation forever,
>>>however. It will
>> > still cover topics like military jet fighters (a
>>>show scheduled for January
>> > 28) and the world-famous Blue Angels flight demonstration
>>>team (scheduled
>> > for March 18).
>

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Mike Lindsay > wrote:
>
>>Flying has to become something that
>>youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
>>old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
>>on the planet over 30

I'll continue to say that some leadership opportunities in gliding clubs
(and all volunteer orginizations, for that matter) should give priority to
the LEAST qualified person. A flight committee headed by the LEAST
experienced CFI (who's willing to do it), the social committee headed by
the NEWEST member of the club. Then all the members agree to give them as
much support as possible. I've found the "leader" then asks for lots of
help, there is lots of interaction, the newer "leader" has more energy
than the more jaded members, and if for some reason things go wrong or
the rules are dumb, there is less entrenchment by the "leader," and
more forgiveness for the "leader."

At Avenal, when I was the newest CFI, I was very surprised when I asked
our operations guy and local DPE, Dan Gudgel, about our syllabus posted
on line and I suggested some changes, including "narrow runway training."
He said that the document could certainly use some updating, and welcomed
me to write an improved one.

Another senior instructor, Harold Gallagher, was talking about standardizing
our training. We talked for a while, and he essentially said "great, we've
discussed this, and you've talked to the other guys, and it'd be great if
you put something together and I bet we'd all love to use it as a guide."

True leadership involves being a good teacher, and a supportive follower
too. Leaders don't always lead from the front; in my experience they often
lead from the middle. The ideas and energy comes from the front, the
support and wisdom comes from the middle. Let the young whippersnappers
provide ideas and energy, while the others give wisdom (only when asked for),
support, and steady lifting.

>>and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
>>wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century.

The wrap around shades are great for the open cockpit (like the
Blanik or PW-2) and the baggy pants come in VERY handy around the
Halloween, thanksgiving, and christmas holidays :P

>>Us
>>old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

One of the best run organizations I've ever seen is the Monterey Bay
99's. This womens' pilot organization gives out scholarships,
some big and some of just a few hundred dollars, to young and entering
women pilots. When these pilots make CFI, they then often give free
instruction to new scholarship winners. Really makes a buck go farther...

Creating this kind of incentive track seems like a real good idea.

>Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the average age of the
>members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70. It may be slightly
>younger at weekends, but not by very much.

Hmmm...ours is 30-40. Maybe the family BBQs, easygoing rules, encouragement
of X-C, "fun" mini-races, etc. is paying off.

Of course having a private gliderport helps...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Roger Worden > wrote:
>> It seems we ought to try to figure out ways to get our sport seen by more
>> eyeballs...and make sure that what people see...is cool...WAY COOL
>DUDE!!!!
>
>That seems to be a tough nut to crack. How can we get mass-media exposure
>without buying it?

I'm writing the Sport Pilot article for Soaring, but EAA also wants one
from me about gliders to go in Sport Pilot magazine.

Another possibility is cross-pollenizing to Hang Gliding magazines.
A few ads in the classifieds, at least. C'mon, a big 'ol Nimbus
picture wouldn't get their attention ;)

>Orgs like SSA certainly don't have the funds to buy air
>time. Paid ads on popular Internet sites with links to exciting video would
>probably attract a lot of eyeballs, but I have no idea what that would cost.
>
>I do NOT recomend trying to go down the path that parachuting is taking.
>Have you seen their new competition format - I think it's called
>"skimming" - where they negotiate a ground-level course just before landing?
>It seems destined to attract the kind of "extreme sports" spectators that
>only want to see crashes, and I think that's a terrible image to cultivate
>for any branch of aviation.
>
>Roger
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Richard Brisbourne]

Peter Seddon wrote:


>
> You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been
> so bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the
> two seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My
> caravan had a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we
> only flew for three. When I look at my log book for the past four years
> the number of flights have decereased each year and I have my own
> aircraft. Our club is restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't
> fly with a 1000ft ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen
> snow for a great number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the
> 52 flying weekends last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to
> familly committments and about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the
> reason gliding is declining for new members, people loose interest through
> lack of flying weather. The UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet
> winters, days like last Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very
> few and far between.
>
> Peter.

Yes, but the point is that support for gliding is getting _worse_. The
weather isn't, in fact (and I speak from about 40 years experience in the
game), if anything it's getting better (remember global warming).

And although I take your point about this year, 2003 was one of the good
ones. (Certainly I managed 80 hours flying at a weekends only from North
Yorkshire, despite 6 weeks lost to health problems).

[Peter Seddon]

Clip
>>Where I live I havn't seen
>> snow for a great number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of
>> the
>> 52 flying weekends last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to
>> familly committments and about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the
>> reason gliding is declining for new members, people loose interest
>> through
>> lack of flying weather. The UK has had three wery wet summers and mild
>> wet
>> winters, days like last Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very
>> few and far between.
>>
>> Peter.
>
> Yes, but the point is that support for gliding is getting _worse_. The
> weather isn't, in fact (and I speak from about 40 years experience in the
> game), if anything it's getting better (remember global warming).
>
> And although I take your point about this year, 2003 was one of the good
> ones. (Certainly I managed 80 hours flying at a weekends only from North
> Yorkshire, despite 6 weeks lost to health problems).
>
>
>
>

Not on the west coast it wasn't, although other thing conspired to keep our
club out of the air.

Peter

[JohnWN in Burke, VA]

I think IMAGE is the key. When I was sailing a dingy, sailing clubs were
having the same problem attracting and keeping young sailors**. On the
other hand, the old salts were ignoring the board sailors whose numbers were
exploding. The sight of a flying board going 25 kts has SEX, and the sex
attracted lots of young men and women.

It may be that gliding clubs and sailing clubs need to expand there
memberships to include board sailors and pargliders. This is because board
sailors and paragliders who reach their mid-20's or 30's (having survived
and/or their knees give out) may want the increased comfort, competition,
and performance of the soaring glider. This would a natural path of
transition from young paraglider to mature glider pilot as well as provide
the key to revitalizing declining club membership rosters.

John in Burke, VA
On the ground.
**The $75K+ boats never seemed to have any problem attracting lots of
pretty young people; however, most $25K+ sailplanes only hold one person,
and there's no overnight parties on board either.

"Chris Davison" > wrote in message
...
> Chaps...you're missing the point. Gliding is not in
> decline because it is expensive, nor is it the British
> weather. Paragliding in the UK costs £125 a day to
> learn, and after about 10 days you have your 'club
> pilot' rating and can fly solo..you then spend about
> £3,000 on harness, wing, reserve and vario etc, and
> maybe on average £1000 a year upgrading that kit as
> it wears out or becomes unfashionable. The costs above
> are easily in line with gliding. This year, despite
> the worst weather on record, PG schools are turning
> new pupils away. There is only one factor which stops
> gliding being as successful as Paragliding....IMAGE.
>
> The image of the average UK gliding club is being full
> of old people in wooden gliders...the image of paragliding
> is young, daredevils jumping off hills. Neither image
> is correct...but it's perception that matters.
>
> If you want gliding to prosper (and I would suggest
> many pilots don't actually want the sport to go through
> the transformation required) then we need a Red Bull
> or Nike or Sky Sports to take gliding, tear up the
> reality and change the image...and then we need clubs
> to sell that image to the public.
>
> Until people grasp this, all the talk of 'better World
> Class gliders' and 'cheap winch launches' is meaningless.
>
>
> Me? My kids (10, 14 and 18) have no desire to go gliding,
> it's what their dad does...but wow, do they want to
> do the stuff they see on TV.
>
> Nuff said.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> At 22:00 03 December 2004, Peter Seddon wrote:
>>
>>'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
>>news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
>>> Interesting argument. Also interesting responses
>>>some of which have
>>> nothing
>>> to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy
>>>winter lurkers.
>>
>>Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of
>>cheap gliders was
>>responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in
>>the UK the bad flying
>>weather over the past three years has put paid to more
>>of our members than
>>anything else.
>>
>>> I agree with you. Soaring has to be 'cool' again
>>>in order to have it
>>> survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat
>>>wouldn't help but
>>> nevertheless that alone will not save it.
>>
>>Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay
>>us £130 for a years
>>membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how
>>cheap do you want it to
>>be.
>>
>>> It is an instant gratification world out there. Why
>>>should a kid spend
>>> countless hours learning how to do something and paying
>>>the dues by
>>> watching
>>> others do it in front of them when they can get out
>>>the X-box or Gameboy
>>> and
>>> go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?
>>
>>I can agree with that!!! But I had great fun throwing
>>my B4 about the sky
>>trying to loose the last 5k feet. You dont get that
>>with an XBox.
>>
>>Peter.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 23:27:30 -0500, "JohnWN in Burke, VA"
> wrote:

>I think IMAGE is the key.

Soaring is in decline for a lot of reasons, some from without, some
from within. Declining real incomes, unsure futures, so called
"global economy" that looks to me like it might go ashcan, these don't
just effect soaring they effect most leisure actibities. Hobby supply
companies are going under daily, US machinery manufacturing is on the
skids, (Which were a lot of the higher paying jobs) more and more of
the auto industry is not in the US. Not much anyone can do about
those, but when you see very old names in the hobby industry
disappear, it's a pretty good sign that the expendable income isn't
there. Another indicator, when a new company does come up in the
hobby industry, it's almost always "high end", aimed at the limited
few that can afford the product, not at any mass market.

There is no one key, you're sitting at a 5 manual organ with AGO
pedalboard and trying to figure out which one will be the "key".
There ain't no magic bullet. Most people get their introduction to
flight today in the passenger compartment of a 747, a lot of them
don't even look out the window. Flying, for them, consists of getting
from one coast to the other before their competitor company does.

Kids, younger people, forget it. The kids might have a few bucks to
play with, but the early 20 to late 30 bracket is more interested in
keeping home and family in the same place. With no chance that you
won't be forced to find another job, don't look for them to jump into
something that's a constant drain on their income, it won't happen.
The three families nearest me, all of them, are having a pretty bad
time keeping going, one halfway down the block is being "relocated",
with the normal cut in income. No stability whatsoever, that's pretty
hard to overcome. But it's still only one reason, and not the only
one.

[F.L. Whiteley]

SSA rejected associating formally with the HG community in the '70's.
Paragliding is currently merging with HG. Not sure much can be done in the
near term. However, I could see the viability of a broader soaring
community at some point.

Frank Whiteley

"JohnWN in Burke, VA" > wrote in message
news:Qcwsd.33$ln.2@lakeread06...
> I think IMAGE is the key. When I was sailing a dingy, sailing clubs were
> having the same problem attracting and keeping young sailors**. On the
> other hand, the old salts were ignoring the board sailors whose numbers
were
> exploding. The sight of a flying board going 25 kts has SEX, and the sex
> attracted lots of young men and women.
>
> It may be that gliding clubs and sailing clubs need to expand there
> memberships to include board sailors and pargliders. This is because
board
> sailors and paragliders who reach their mid-20's or 30's (having survived
> and/or their knees give out) may want the increased comfort, competition,
> and performance of the soaring glider. This would a natural path of
> transition from young paraglider to mature glider pilot as well as provide
> the key to revitalizing declining club membership rosters.
>
> John in Burke, VA
> On the ground.
> **The $75K+ boats never seemed to have any problem attracting lots of
> pretty young people; however, most $25K+ sailplanes only hold one person,
> and there's no overnight parties on board either.
>
> "Chris Davison" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Chaps...you're missing the point. Gliding is not in
> > decline because it is expensive, nor is it the British
> > weather. Paragliding in the UK costs £125 a day to
> > learn, and after about 10 days you have your 'club
> > pilot' rating and can fly solo..you then spend about
> > £3,000 on harness, wing, reserve and vario etc, and
> > maybe on average £1000 a year upgrading that kit as
> > it wears out or becomes unfashionable. The costs above
> > are easily in line with gliding. This year, despite
> > the worst weather on record, PG schools are turning
> > new pupils away. There is only one factor which stops
> > gliding being as successful as Paragliding....IMAGE.
> >
> > The image of the average UK gliding club is being full
> > of old people in wooden gliders...the image of paragliding
> > is young, daredevils jumping off hills. Neither image
> > is correct...but it's perception that matters.
> >
> > If you want gliding to prosper (and I would suggest
> > many pilots don't actually want the sport to go through
> > the transformation required) then we need a Red Bull
> > or Nike or Sky Sports to take gliding, tear up the
> > reality and change the image...and then we need clubs
> > to sell that image to the public.
> >
> > Until people grasp this, all the talk of 'better World
> > Class gliders' and 'cheap winch launches' is meaningless.
> >
> >
> > Me? My kids (10, 14 and 18) have no desire to go gliding,
> > it's what their dad does...but wow, do they want to
> > do the stuff they see on TV.
> >
> > Nuff said.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 22:00 03 December 2004, Peter Seddon wrote:
> >>
> >>'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message
> >>news:yB2sd.19804$KO5.10476@fed1read02...
> >>> Interesting argument. Also interesting responses
> >>>some of which have
> >>> nothing
> >>> to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy
> >>>winter lurkers.
> >>
> >>Sorry but the origional post said that the lack of
> >>cheap gliders was
> >>responsible for the decline in gliding. Not so, in
> >>the UK the bad flying
> >>weather over the past three years has put paid to more
> >>of our members than
> >>anything else.
> >>
> >>> I agree with you. Soaring has to be 'cool' again
> >>>in order to have it
> >>> survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat
> >>>wouldn't help but
> >>> nevertheless that alone will not save it.
> >>
> >>Come fly with us, no waiting time to join just pay
> >>us £130 for a years
> >>membership, £2 /min aerotow and 20p /min hire, how
> >>cheap do you want it to
> >>be.
> >>
> >>> It is an instant gratification world out there. Why
> >>>should a kid spend
> >>> countless hours learning how to do something and paying
> >>>the dues by
> >>> watching
> >>> others do it in front of them when they can get out
> >>>the X-box or Gameboy
> >>> and
> >>> go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?
> >>
> >>I can agree with that!!! But I had great fun throwing
> >>my B4 about the sky
> >>trying to loose the last 5k feet. You dont get that
> >>with an XBox.
> >>
> >>Peter.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Michel Talon]

wrote:
>
> Kids, younger people, forget it. The kids might have a few bucks to
> play with, but the early 20 to late 30 bracket is more interested in
> keeping home and family in the same place. With no chance that you
> won't be forced to find another job, don't look for them to jump into
> something that's a constant drain on their income, it won't happen.
> The three families nearest me, all of them, are having a pretty bad
> time keeping going, one halfway down the block is being "relocated",
> with the normal cut in income. No stability whatsoever, that's pretty
> hard to overcome. But it's still only one reason, and not the only
> one.

I agree 100%. Of course there are other reasons, but this one is
mechanically deterministic. On the other reasons, such as being more
attractive to youngs, trying to waste less time, etc. one can try to do
something.


--

Michel TALON

[Robert Ehrlich]

The parallel with sailing boats came in my mind just a few days ago, when
I heard in the radio a report about the big annual boat exhibition (Salon
Nautique) which was just starting here. lA manufacturer was interviewed, he
was saying that their production is stil growing, no problem with the market
but rather to be able to keep the production at a rate coping with the
demand. He was not speaking of cheap small boats, but of 40 ft and above
sailing boats.

I have some ideas on the subject as I practised sailing before I began
gliding and owned a 8m boat with which I cuised along the french coasts of
Britanny and also made travels to England and Ireland. My reflexion was
that most of the things that were mentionned in these discussions as
things which may discourage people to start or continue gliding are also
present in sailing and sailing is nevertheless growing.

Gliding depends heavily on meteorological conditions, sailing also. It may
be worse for sailing. If you go to your favorite gliding field and it rains,
you have lost your day but not your money. If you hired a sailing boat for
a week (in the size of 40ft, most people don't own a boat but rather hire
it) and the weather don't allow to make the cruise you have planned, you
have lost your time and your money.

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation. For boats, at least in France
the situation may be worse. In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Gliders are expensive, boats also. The thechnology for building them is very
similar and involves a lot of manpower. A former french boat manufacturer
has even built under license a small number of Cirrus and Janus.

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role. I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30 years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century ago.

[Mark James Boyd]

Robert Ehrlich > wrote:
>
>Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation.

Of course you're right. But don't let THE MAN get you down.
When glider pilots ask me why I'm so supprotive of
Sport Pilot, I borrow a quote from the movie "The School of Rock"
"I'm doing like you taught us, I'm stickin' it to THE MAN."
:)

>In fact among things that decided me to stop
>sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
>considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
>from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel from
>Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
>same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
>and I didn't had place for both.

Even seemingly small regulations have huge dampening effects. Alan Greenspan
is famous for (among other things) pointing this out to the U.S. Congress.
The use of more incentives vs. regulation to shape commerce is an example of
his (partial) influence.

Overregulation can really impact an industry. The worst is when it
happens incrementally, in tiny steps that don't quite get a radar
return. Over time, airplane instructors needed a commercial
license, and then an instrument rating. C'mon, all that to instruct
in a Piper Cub? Glider pilots needed a commercial license, then
an instructor license, to instruct. C'mon, if someone passed a private,
why do they need to pay for a commercial checkride too
(with no PTS difference except +/-100 feet for landing vs. +/-200 feet,
and +/- 5 instead of +10/-5 for airspeed and bank angle) before
taking a CFIG test?

These incremental overregulations over time gradually hurt the
aviation industry. It looks like the FAA is slowly moving towards
requiring transponders in all aircraft above 10,000 feet. Yep,
that'll incrementally cut some flying. Then I suspect they'll try to
require transponders in all aircraft at all altitudes, eventually.
And each one will be required to emit a unique ID, for "safety" reasons.
Sounds like THE MAN to me...

That's why I joined AOPA (for a little fee).
As the song goes, "Freedom isn't free, it's a buck-o-five." :)

>I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
>still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
>and nesspapers play some role.

Certainly. Every airplane crash of a Cessna 152 or 172 or Piper is reported
on the evening news. The same number of deaths in a car seldom makes the
news.

Two drunks taxi an airliner from the gate, and it's national news.
Two drunks light a building on fire and maybe it makes the local paper.

The knife cuts both ways.

>I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
>radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
>I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30 years
>ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
>sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as sailing
>boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not aware
>that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century ago.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Lennie the Lurker]

(Michel Talon) wrote in message >...
>
>
> I agree 100%. Of course there are other reasons, but this one is
> mechanically deterministic. On the other reasons, such as being more
> attractive to youngs, trying to waste less time, etc. one can try to do
> something.

Lots of other factors, changing attitudes, the way people look at
their lives has changed, dramatically, the lowered incomes for most
people. The financial matters probably cannot be overcome, there is
no way to reduce the costs to even reasonable. Attitudes, most young
people don't want to be part of a so called "elite" group, they would
rather stay acceptable to their peers. People don't live in one place
for very long now, seven years in the same town is average, and
decreasing, no real "roots" put down anywhere, sense of belonging to
any community is lost, or never existed.

Accessability to gliderports, here in the US, there are probably
gliderports within 100 miles of most places, but with people driving
long distances to work daily, getting them to spend even a little more
time in their car is going to be difficult. FOr 25 years I drove 27
miles to work, then 27 miles back home, you don't get used to it, you
get to hate it.

Consistancy in training, usually doesn't exist. "Instructor of the
day" is the rule, with rare exceptions. Finding the trainer and
instructors booked solid for the next six weeks, common. No such
thing as going to the field hoping to have even one flight squeezed
in, it just doesn't happen. Attitude that if you can't afford to
schedule your time in blocks for the next six weeks, you shouldn't be
doing it anyhow. Most people now have to look at what they have for
expendable income on a week to week basis, trying to schedule on that
basis is almost impossible.

Loss of common courtesies, I've driven 46 miles to the gliderport, to
find that the tug was down, and offered a poor substitute for what I
wanted. One phone call could have avoided me wasting 4 hours and the
$10 in gas that I could have used somewhere else. (Not restricted to
gliderports, but becoming very common everywhere.) I don't tolerate
that anyplace else, can't think of any reason anyone should.

And that's only dragging a pin over the surface, not even making a
scratch.

[Steve Bralla]

In article <41b1fefa$1@darkstar>, (Mark James Boyd)
writes:

>
>I'm writing the Sport Pilot article for Soaring, but EAA also wants one
>from me about gliders to go in Sport Pilot magazine.
>

I have heard (OZ Report) that there is a hang gliding article coming in Soaring
magazine.

Steve

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:41b3545f$1@darkstar...
> Robert Ehrlich > wrote:
> >
> >Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation.
>
> Of course you're right. But don't let THE MAN get you down.
> When glider pilots ask me why I'm so supprotive of
> Sport Pilot, I borrow a quote from the movie "The School of Rock"
> "I'm doing like you taught us, I'm stickin' it to THE MAN."
> :)
>
> >In fact among things that decided me to stop
> >sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
> >considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
> >from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel
from
> >Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
> >same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
> >and I didn't had place for both.
>
> Even seemingly small regulations have huge dampening effects. Alan
Greenspan
> is famous for (among other things) pointing this out to the U.S. Congress.
> The use of more incentives vs. regulation to shape commerce is an example
of
> his (partial) influence.
>
> Overregulation can really impact an industry. The worst is when it
> happens incrementally, in tiny steps that don't quite get a radar
> return. Over time, airplane instructors needed a commercial
> license, and then an instrument rating. C'mon, all that to instruct
> in a Piper Cub? Glider pilots needed a commercial license, then
> an instructor license, to instruct. C'mon, if someone passed a private,
> why do they need to pay for a commercial checkride too
> (with no PTS difference except +/-100 feet for landing vs. +/-200 feet,
> and +/- 5 instead of +10/-5 for airspeed and bank angle) before
> taking a CFIG test?
>
> These incremental overregulations over time gradually hurt the
> aviation industry. It looks like the FAA is slowly moving towards
> requiring transponders in all aircraft above 10,000 feet. Yep,
> that'll incrementally cut some flying. Then I suspect they'll try to
> require transponders in all aircraft at all altitudes, eventually.
> And each one will be required to emit a unique ID, for "safety" reasons.
> Sounds like THE MAN to me...
>
> That's why I joined AOPA (for a little fee).
> As the song goes, "Freedom isn't free, it's a buck-o-five." :)
>
> >I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
> >still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
> >and nesspapers play some role.
>
> Certainly. Every airplane crash of a Cessna 152 or 172 or Piper is
reported
> on the evening news. The same number of deaths in a car seldom makes the
> news.
>
> Two drunks taxi an airliner from the gate, and it's national news.
> Two drunks light a building on fire and maybe it makes the local paper.
>
> The knife cuts both ways.
>
> >I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
> >radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
> >I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30
years
> >ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
> >sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as
sailing
> >boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not
aware
> >that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century
ago.
>
>
Had a interesting chat with someone who posts here infrequently the other
evening. He had some concern about the plain English language of the sport
pilot/LSA tending towards the draconian. IOW, unless specifically
permitted, it's prohibited, unlike the current FARs, where unless
specifically prohibited, it's permitted. The next revisions may be onerous.

Frank Whiteley

[F.L. Whiteley]

"Steve Bralla" > wrote in message
...
> In article <41b1fefa$1@darkstar>, (Mark James Boyd)
> writes:
>
> >
> >I'm writing the Sport Pilot article for Soaring, but EAA also wants one
> >from me about gliders to go in Sport Pilot magazine.
> >
>
> I have heard (OZ Report) that there is a hang gliding article coming in
Soaring
> magazine.
>
> Steve
Makes some sense, since there was the recent meeting in Idaho.
Consolidating some functions has been on the back burner for some years.
There are quite a number of cross-over pilots, several in my club.

Frank

[Bert Willing]

When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24 years
later that club charges haven't changed alot.

It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices in
French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
fairly low, and more so for youngsters.

Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do have
low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.

If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
moving away from Paris... ;-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Bert Willing > wrote:
>> I absolutely agree with you.
>> There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
>> this
>> 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
>> population.
>> And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
>> skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
>> fancies
>> to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
>> any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
>> the
>> money for anyways.
>
> And you live in a completely unrealistic world. In our world in Europe,
> the vast majority of youngsters don't have the money for skiing, horse
> riding, etc. Anyways my kids didn't have the money to do anything of
> that sort, and still i have a reasonably good job, and so does my wife.
> You should stop thinking anyone is a medical doctor or a lawyer earning
> several hundred thousand dollars a year. Another thing i can add is that
> when i was young myself i could afford flying gliders, and even power
> flying. Things have considerably degraded, and your arguments that even
> with zero cost, gliding would continue do decline is complete bull****.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON
>

[Michel Talon]

Bert Willing > wrote:
> When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
> scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24 years
> later that club charges haven't changed alot.

Yes, when i was young, clubs had special prices for young people, and
there were even aids for power flying. I remember that when i began
gliding, launches were 30F, that is around 5$, now they are around 20
euros. Even at that time a lot of "blue collar" people who had been
active in the gliding community were leaving because it was too
expensive.

>
> It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
> their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices in
> French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
> fairly low, and more so for youngsters.
>

Fine, this is what i have heard several times here, but this is clearly
not the case in France. If i look at the fleet of a club i like near
Paris, Buno-Bonnevaux, there is still a large number of Pegases, and
not many expensive gliders. However the prices are very far from what
you describe in Germany. If i look at the fleet at a well known club in
the alps, Sisteron, both the gliders are quite old, and the prices are
outrageous.


> Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
> glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
> little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do have
> low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.
>

Salaries did not go up very much in the last 20 years, or at least in
the last 10 years. In fact they are very close to stationnary in the
last 10 years. So you wonder that a 25 years old glider which is
basically no more performing than a Pegase is still 30k euros?
Personnally i think such a price is absolutely scandalous, it is
basically a one year income for an academic staff, a software engineer,
etc. As i said, you should be conscient that salaries in the 100k
dollars are absolutely exceptional here. People accept to spend
100-200 k$ for something vital and durable, a house, but for nothing
else.

> If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
> moving away from Paris... ;-)
>

Which means that my family income would be divided by two because my
wife would be out of job. I know the story i have lived in Montpellier.
It would be an excellent way to make economies :-(


--

Michel TALON

[Bert Willing]

You can't compare prices in the Southern Alps with regular clubs. One of the
main differences between French clubs and German clubs is that in Germany,
there are no employees in a club, and so no salaries to pay. The drawback is
of course weekend operation only (well I for my part have to work during the
week anyways...).

And if you don't like the second hand prices for an ASW20, you can always go
for an ASW20F :-)) Or get one or two syndicate partners as I do.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Bert Willing > wrote:
>> When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
>> scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24
>> years
>> later that club charges haven't changed alot.
>
> Yes, when i was young, clubs had special prices for young people, and
> there were even aids for power flying. I remember that when i began
> gliding, launches were 30F, that is around 5$, now they are around 20
> euros. Even at that time a lot of "blue collar" people who had been
> active in the gliding community were leaving because it was too
> expensive.
>
>>
>> It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
>> their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices
>> in
>> French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
>> fairly low, and more so for youngsters.
>>
>
> Fine, this is what i have heard several times here, but this is clearly
> not the case in France. If i look at the fleet of a club i like near
> Paris, Buno-Bonnevaux, there is still a large number of Pegases, and
> not many expensive gliders. However the prices are very far from what
> you describe in Germany. If i look at the fleet at a well known club in
> the alps, Sisteron, both the gliders are quite old, and the prices are
> outrageous.
>
>
>> Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
>> glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
>> little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do
>> have
>> low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.
>>
>
> Salaries did not go up very much in the last 20 years, or at least in
> the last 10 years. In fact they are very close to stationnary in the
> last 10 years. So you wonder that a 25 years old glider which is
> basically no more performing than a Pegase is still 30k euros?
> Personnally i think such a price is absolutely scandalous, it is
> basically a one year income for an academic staff, a software engineer,
> etc. As i said, you should be conscient that salaries in the 100k
> dollars are absolutely exceptional here. People accept to spend
> 100-200 k$ for something vital and durable, a house, but for nothing
> else.
>
>> If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
>> moving away from Paris... ;-)
>>
>
> Which means that my family income would be divided by two because my
> wife would be out of job. I know the story i have lived in Montpellier.
> It would be an excellent way to make economies :-(
>
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON
>

[Graeme Cant]

tango4 wrote:
> The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
> the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if we
> could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady decline
> in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.
>
> I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to entry
> into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came up
> with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily halt
> the decline.

Absolutely. The market will work for gliding as it does with most
things. Already, I know of three 25-30 year old glass gliders bought by
young men from deceased estates for trivial prices (a perfectly good
PIK-20B for $12000, for example). Cost isn't/won't be the problem.
Real prices will go on falling as the number of available gliders grows
at a faster rate than the number of buyers.

> In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining a
> gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.
>
> Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
> dingies.
>
> Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots each
> year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest of
> the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
> just sufficient.
>
> Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
> rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a few
> percent.
>
> Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
> dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
> leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
> youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
> old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
> on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
> wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
> old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.
>
> We need a new approach.

No we don't. It won't die with us. There will always be a few young
men who are attracted to soaring. Many will come to it later though
because its attractions are available in other sports as well these days.

Meanwhile old committee members are needed to steward the assets of the
clubs. What the young get for free won't be appreciated and the
embarrassing sight of old farts offering metaphorical boiled lollies to
teenagers is to be avoided at all costs. When they win the fight over
our dead bodies they'll actually care for what they get their hands on.
What will make youngsters want to be part of soaring is us grey heads
refusing to let them have it. The ones it will be worth passing it on
to will be those who care enough to fight us for it.

And we're doing a great job at stewardship. The major threat to the
existence of many clubs is property development attempting to drive us
from our airfields. How useful are teenagers in fighting those battles?
A committe of 20-somethings would lose at the first round and what
would be left then? Give me a bunch of old men who have the patience
and persistence and experience and rat-cunning to win these civic battles.

Certainly the young will take over in the end - but why should I/we make
our sport unpleasant for ourselves by changing all the things about it
which the majority of us enjoy? I'm only here once the same as the
young. Why should their preferences have priority? They can have it
later and remake it any way they like. They can buy my gliders cheaply
too. But not yet.

Graeme Cant

[[email protected]]

http://www.ardice.com/Regional/Oceania/Australia/South_Australia/Localities/A/Adelaide/

[Graeme Cant]

Bert Willing wrote:

> And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
> skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
> to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
> any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
> money for anyways.

Well, I'm one of those catching-up-with-their-dreams folks and I see no
reason why 16 year olds' fickle fancies are worth more to gliding than
my dedication. Is my money a different colour? Do I work less hard for
the club? Why shouldn't gliding be a sport for middle-aged men? We're
too old to steal hubcaps.

And what do you mean by "the future of soaring"? If Eur200,000 gliders
are the future - and they're certainly the present - then sure as hell
16 year olds don't figure much in that future. Yes, there's room for
teenagers in gliding just like there is in ocean racing, and teenagers
are the future of gliding just like they're the future of ocean racing.

> As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
> time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and those
> "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts have to
> be dumped...

Try it.

If the teenagers don't like the effort involved, then 50year olds WILL
be the future of gliding because they WILL make the effort. If
teenagers don't like the way things are done, 50 year olds who DO like
these ways will be the future of gliding.

Why are you concerned about this nebulous "future" anyway? Enjoy your
gliding NOW. Do what you want to do in gliding NOW. When you don't
want to keep doing it, LEAVE. Someone else WILL take your place.

It won't be a teenager.

Gliding's fine (except for the IGC). Leave it alone.

Graeme Cant

[Michel Talon]

Graeme Cant > wrote:
>
> Absolutely. The market will work for gliding as it does with most
> things. Already, I know of three 25-30 year old glass gliders bought by
> young men from deceased estates for trivial prices (a perfectly good
> PIK-20B for $12000, for example). Cost isn't/won't be the problem.
> Real prices will go on falling as the number of available gliders grows
> at a faster rate than the number of buyers.

Corollary when the sport will be almost dying.

--

Michel TALON

[jancsika]

Hmm, now I'm 30 and when I was 14-22 I spent the whole summer at the
airports. Sitting in the winch, pulling the cable, handling gliders,
retrieving sailplanes, working on contests etc-etc. How many people can
afford it once you have to work for your family...?
I do think we should attract young members but we have to optimize our
activity. For example when I started the basic training we were about 35
for only one IS28B2:( It was just impossible to fly for all of us.

/Janos


Graeme Cant wrote:
> Bert Willing wrote:
>
>> And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
>> skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
>> fancies to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of
>> soaring, not any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams
>> folks) and gets the money for anyways.
>
>
> Well, I'm one of those catching-up-with-their-dreams folks and I see no
> reason why 16 year olds' fickle fancies are worth more to gliding than
> my dedication. Is my money a different colour? Do I work less hard for
> the club? Why shouldn't gliding be a sport for middle-aged men? We're
> too old to steal hubcaps.
>
> And what do you mean by "the future of soaring"? If Eur200,000 gliders
> are the future - and they're certainly the present - then sure as hell
> 16 year olds don't figure much in that future. Yes, there's room for
> teenagers in gliding just like there is in ocean racing, and teenagers
> are the future of gliding just like they're the future of ocean racing.
>
>> As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
>> time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
>> those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years"
>> farts have to be dumped...
>
>
> Try it.
>
> If the teenagers don't like the effort involved, then 50year olds WILL
> be the future of gliding because they WILL make the effort. If
> teenagers don't like the way things are done, 50 year olds who DO like
> these ways will be the future of gliding.
>
> Why are you concerned about this nebulous "future" anyway? Enjoy your
> gliding NOW. Do what you want to do in gliding NOW. When you don't
> want to keep doing it, LEAVE. Someone else WILL take your place.
>
> It won't be a teenager.
>
> Gliding's fine (except for the IGC). Leave it alone.
>
> Graeme Cant
>

[Steve Hill]

I really don't get all this paranoia about the sport dying...We have a group
of folks coming along, who absolutely LOVE thrills. The Gen X crowd is on
its way and though it might be a few years, it'll get to us when it's ready.
We just have to be ready to receive them and train them and help them move
along and become part of us...things will change, but that's
inevitable...Why all the worry???

We need to do what we are doing...ask questions, and try to set change in
motion and find ways to do a better job where and when we can. Soaring isn't
going to die now or anytime soon. If clubs fail, new clubs will form.
Different, but there will always be soaring in one way or another. As long
as one guy jumps off a hill with a paraglider, another guy will look for a
better way to go faster and farther...ultimately there will be an
equillibrium attained with regards to sailplane prices and
performance...it's called a free market....it never seems to disappoint.
Hell...at my airport we had to kids show up with hang gliders and a
homebuilt winch contraption, built from an old Roto-tiller...it didn't
work...but they were thinking and trying!!

I guess what is bugging me is how many people start echoing all the "end of
soaring" crap...RELAX...we'll be fine...just let's be positive and work to
bring new enthused young folks...old folks and middle aged folks into our
fold.

Soaring is a thing you either "get"...or "don't get"...the ones who "get it"
will find their way into our sport. We just need to provide more stimulus in
the form of what people can see, in order for it to be better recognized.
When people see it and start wondering about how they can try it, then
growth will occur. Since it's such a topic on here, I think we can all make
the effort to simply start out by taking ONE person for a glider ride next
year...hopefully a person who would have the logical possibility of being
one of those folks who'd have some level of interest...Man...think of
it...what would happen if next year we got say....1,000 new and additional
glider pilots added to our ranks. Over and above our attrition, that would
be a great start.

We....are the solution. Tell your friends...find a person...seek out one
individual and try to hook em!!!!



Steve.

[Jack]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
> Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
> my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
> don't know it.

You have read "1984", have you not?

If not, then run -- do not walk -- to your local library and demand a
copy. It is the prequel to the 21st Century as we are living it.


Jack

[Stewart Kissel]

Well although it may/may not be a 'prequel' to how
we are living...how this applies to soaring still has
me mystified.




At 19:30 06 December 2004, Jack wrote:
>Stewart Kissel wrote:
>> Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
>> my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
>> don't know it.
>
>You have read '1984', have you not?
>
>If not, then run -- do not walk -- to your local library
>and demand a
>copy. It is the prequel to the 21st Century as we
>are living it.
>
>
>Jack
>

[Stewart Kissel]

Snip 1...

At 05:30 05 December 2004, Johnwn In Burke, Va wrote:
There is only one factor which stops
>> gliding being as successful as Paragliding....IMAGE.


Snip 2...
>>
>> The image of the average UK gliding club is being
>>full
>> of old people in wooden gliders...the image of paragliding
>> is young, daredevils jumping off hills. Neither image
>> is correct...but it's perception that matters.
>>



Apologies to those in this picture who may feel slighted...my
intent was to post what I perceive as a fairly accurate
image of our sport...and the challenge of making this
image cool.

http://windpath.ca/news/images/dv_lgpix/2_F1030012.jpg

[Bill Daniels]

Good point.

Now, go to this site and download some videos and see how the European
youngsters see the sport there.
http://www.alpenstreckenflug.de/texte/english/glidingvideos.htm

There couldn't be more contrast.

(The files may be too big for the bandwidth challenged.)

Bill Daniels


"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
> Snip 1...
>
> At 05:30 05 December 2004, Johnwn In Burke, Va wrote:
> There is only one factor which stops
> >> gliding being as successful as Paragliding....IMAGE.
>
>
> Snip 2...
> >>
> >> The image of the average UK gliding club is being
> >>full
> >> of old people in wooden gliders...the image of paragliding
> >> is young, daredevils jumping off hills. Neither image
> >> is correct...but it's perception that matters.
> >>
>
>
>
> Apologies to those in this picture who may feel slighted...my
> intent was to post what I perceive as a fairly accurate
> image of our sport...and the challenge of making this
> image cool.
>
> http://windpath.ca/news/images/dv_lgpix/2_F1030012.jpg
>
>
>

[Brad]

Well this new and "improved" google has me a bit
mystified......anyhow..........my point was the thermals we enjoy could
easily be removed from our enjoyment at the whim of our "elected"
officials, all under the guise of making us "safer". I for one would
rather take my chances with the mountain winds than the capriciousness
of the oligarchy.

Brad


Stewart Kissel wrote:
> Well although it may/may not be a 'prequel' to how
> we are living...how this applies to soaring still has
> me mystified.
>
>
>
>
> At 19:30 06 December 2004, Jack wrote:
> >Stewart Kissel wrote:
> >> Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
> >> my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
> >> don't know it.
> >
> >You have read '1984', have you not?
> >
> >If not, then run -- do not walk -- to your local library
> >and demand a
> >copy. It is the prequel to the 21st Century as we
> >are living it.
> >
> >
> >Jack
> >

[Jack]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

> Apologies to those in this picture who may feel slighted...my
> intent was to post what I perceive as a fairly accurate
> image of our sport...and the challenge of making this
> image cool.
>
> http://windpath.ca/news/images/dv_lgpix/2_F1030012.jpg

Well, our club isn't a bit like that!

We NEVER have our chairs arranged in such orderly rows. ;)



Jack

[Graeme Cant]

Michel Talon wrote:
> Graeme Cant > wrote:
>
>>Absolutely. The market will work for gliding as it does with most
>>things. Already, I know of three 25-30 year old glass gliders bought by
>>young men from deceased estates for trivial prices (a perfectly good
>>PIK-20B for $12000, for example). Cost isn't/won't be the problem.
>>Real prices will go on falling as the number of available gliders grows
>>at a faster rate than the number of buyers.
>
>
> Corollary when the sport will be almost dying.

Prior to its rebirth in a different form - which almost none of the
existing participants will foresee - and certainly won't like.

But it will still be soaring.

Graeme Cant
>

[Bruce]

Jack wrote:
> Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>> Apologies to those in this picture who may feel slighted...my
>> intent was to post what I perceive as a fairly accurate
>> image of our sport...and the challenge of making this
>> image cool.
>>
>> http://windpath.ca/news/images/dv_lgpix/2_F1030012.jpg
>
>
> Well, our club isn't a bit like that!
>
> We NEVER have our chairs arranged in such orderly rows. ;)
>
>
>
> Jack
You guys have CHAIRS?? Sheer luxury!

[Mark James Boyd]

Steve Hill > wrote:
>I continue to believe that the answer to building soaring has mainly to do
>with making it more convenient.

I think licensing is quite inconvenient. This is a huge
hassle that the other sports just don't have.

>I don't think it's the cost of the sailplane that's prohibitive, I
>think it's the whole package...club fees/dues, tows, insurance, equipment,
>etc...

Cost of licensing. A coupla thousand $$$$s? Now that's a huge initial cost.
I'm really excited about Sport Pilot transitions. The airplane guys
and ultralighters are our best shot.

They've already shown strong stomaches for turbulence, have many of the
skills already, and have money.

>We definitely need to adjust our view as to who
>our target audience is, and define a demographic...for the pursuit of fresh
>meat....for our sport...

The newbie pure glider guys I've met are most excited about
acro (in the Fox), nice BBQs/social meetings, and "safaris" to new
gliderports, maybe ground launch?

Variety and social stuff. Y'know, fun! Personally, the stories about
landouts and heavy wings and fighting bulls and there I was at the
competition don't do it for me. I'm not an addict, I'm a soaring consumer.
Easy, reasonably priced, and fun. The ragged edge of performance still
isn't interesting for me.

But stories of water ballon drops, hammocks and BBQs?
Now THAT's a weekend!
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Justin Fielding]

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Steve Hill wrote:

| If I've seen one consistent thing amongst young new prospective sailplane
| types, its that they have a tough time justifying all the expense, for the
| limited amount of time they get to participate ....weekends...April till
| October...but for a few places in the U.S. that's a fairly common
thing. So
| we really come down to competing with EVERY other interesting
thrill-seeking
| venue out there.
| Methinks.
|
|
Yep I think thats a good observation. I always wanted to soar as a kid.
~ I got quite in to R/C gliders and still hold an interest. However when
it came to a point where I could afford to have a more expensive hobby,
I could not take the cost of soaring. Instead I went for paragliding.
I still get to soar, even if it's not as gracefully as in a real soaring
machine. Even if I brought a low cost glider, instead of a new car,
there are too many other costs involved, for the amount of time I would
get to fly.

Justin.
|
| Steve.
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[Justin Fielding]

Yep, I'm 24 and I would much rather do anything associated with flying
(even looking at aerofoils or learning more about weather systems) than
going out and getting drunk etc etc etc. Thats fine now and then, but I
don't know how these other guys don't get bored of it.

Justin.

wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:22:40 GMT, "Bill Daniels" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
>>interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
>>few really love soaring.
>>
>>We need to stop driving them away.
>>
>
> Extremely well said, Bill.
>
> Lennie (Surprised?)

[Justin Fielding]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
> Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
> my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
> don't know it.
>
> Soaring ain't going to become 'cool' anytime soon,
> and I am not so sure it was in its heyday. So rather
> then battling the fact that lumpy white old guys in
> funny looking clothes are not a marketing tool...why
> not examine who might be interested in an 'uncool'
> activity.
>
> The hang-glider population is not getting any younger,
> and their landing gears continue to wear out...this
> group seems to be making their way to sailplanes on
> their own.
>
> Software engineers seem to also be finding their way
> to the sport...and the reality of the modern instrument
> panel probably intrigues many of them.
>
> I don't see young, fit skiers, snowboarders, parachutists,
> cyclists as particularly fertile recruiting ground.
>
Don't be so sure. I paraglide, mostly because of the cost and also
convieniance. You will find the better paraglider pilots all have a
bigger interest in soaring as a whole, and respect and recognise the
skill soaring requires over any other sport (you have to read inivisible
weather systems, learn about areodynamics and so on). By soaring I mean
paragliding/hanggliding/sailplanes. Im sure when I have the money and
stability, I will move in to sailplanes.

Justin
>
> And once the vid-game generation comes of age...things
> will probably get even quieter at the glider port.
>
>

[tango4]

There are several sailplanes for sale in the UK for less than £2000 complete
with trailers ets. There's no time like the present!

Ian


"Justin Fielding" > wrote in message
news:1102698925.a47248e379dbf1a123dc73f01a18448b@t eranews...
> Stewart Kissel wrote:
>> Hmmm, the George Orwell references are a little over
>> my head...but perhaps I am on a parallel track and
>> don't know it.
>>
>> Soaring ain't going to become 'cool' anytime soon,
>> and I am not so sure it was in its heyday. So rather
>> then battling the fact that lumpy white old guys in
>> funny looking clothes are not a marketing tool...why
>> not examine who might be interested in an 'uncool'
>> activity.
>>
>> The hang-glider population is not getting any younger,
>> and their landing gears continue to wear out...this
>> group seems to be making their way to sailplanes on
>> their own.
>>
>> Software engineers seem to also be finding their way
>> to the sport...and the reality of the modern instrument
>> panel probably intrigues many of them.
>>
>> I don't see young, fit skiers, snowboarders, parachutists,
>> cyclists as particularly fertile recruiting ground.
>>
> Don't be so sure. I paraglide, mostly because of the cost and also
> convieniance. You will find the better paraglider pilots all have a
> bigger interest in soaring as a whole, and respect and recognise the skill
> soaring requires over any other sport (you have to read inivisible weather
> systems, learn about areodynamics and so on). By soaring I mean
> paragliding/hanggliding/sailplanes. Im sure when I have the money and
> stability, I will move in to sailplanes.
>
> Justin
>>
>> And once the vid-game generation comes of age...things
>> will probably get even quieter at the glider port.
>>

[Stewart Kissel]

At 18:01 10 December 2004, Justin Fielding wrote:.
>>
>> I don't see young, fit skiers, snowboarders, parachutists,
>> cyclists as particularly fertile recruiting ground.
>>
>Don't be so sure. I paraglide, mostly because of the
>cost and also
>convieniance. You will find the better paraglider
>pilots all have a
>bigger interest in soaring as a whole, and respect
>and recognise the
>skill soaring requires over any other sport (you have
>to read inivisible
>weather systems, learn about areodynamics and so on).
> By soaring I mean
>paragliding/hanggliding/sailplanes. Im sure when I
>have the money and
>stability, I will move in to sailplanes.
>
>Justin

http://www.windlines.net/modules.php?set_albumName=album99&id=PB18
0129&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

HA, I bet this guy just can't wait to jump into a
junky 2-33 with some crusty old-timer in the backseat
yelling at him...rather then what he is doing now :)

[Mark James Boyd]

Stewart Kissel > wrote:
>
>HA, I bet this guy just can't wait to jump into a
>junky 2-33 with some crusty old-timer in the backseat
>yelling at him...rather then what he is doing now :)

Hey, I'm not much older than he is, and we have not one, but
TWO recently recovered, painted, and reupholstered 2-33s
waiting for adoring pilots.

And we have a junky ol' unairworthy 2-22 sitting around that
may just end up getting a makeover soon too...

;PPP
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Don Johnstone]

I have just read through this thread. I don't think
the problem is one single factor but there is a problem
with infrastructure. Just look around your club, what
is the average age of the instructors? Is that average
reducing? Are the numbers of instructors increasing
year on year? The sad truth is that if we were able
to recruit large numbers of new students most clubs
would not have the instructor resources to train them
and sadly if you don't enable people to see they are
progressing at a decent rate they become disallusioned
and find something else 'more exciting'.
We have been seeing (in the UK) a gradually decreasing
instructor pool. I had my first instructor category
at 18 and until this year I had retained it. Over the
years being an instructor has become less and less
of an advantage and the club where I flew even charged
me more membership that someone who did not instruct.
I flew about 5 hours in 2003 in my own glider from
my own club. The only time I could fly it was if I
went away where I could not be the duty instructor.
I don't think my case is unique. It is absolutely
pointless trying to attract new students until we have
put right the decline in the numbers of people qualified
to teach them, and that means attaracting young people
into instructing. With the cost of attaining an instructor
category, where the potential instructor has to spend
large amounts of his own cash, it is perhaps not surprising
that becoming an instructor is less popular. There
is no doubt that it is possible to purchase your own
glider, with a reasonable performance, for less money
than you will spend on getting a full cat rating or
even an Ass Cat. Given that choice which way would
you choose?
Seeing what happens tomorrow is not a plan!!!!!

At 08:30 04 December 2004, Mike Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>Todays youth have more disposable income than most
>>of us could ever have
>>dreamed of at their age and in the future they are
>>likely to have more
>>leisure time and even more money.
>
>Not sure about more leisure time. People seem to have
>to work harder
>than they did 30 years ago.
>
>>Flying has to become something that
>>youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather
>>than sticking with the
>>old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every
>>club committee member
>>on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
>>baseball caps,
>>wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into
>>the 21st century. Us
>>old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
>>if you ask me.
>>
>Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the
>average age of the
>members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70.
>It may be slightly
>younger at weekends, but not by very much.
>
>>We need a new approach.
>>
>>Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Mike Lindsay
>

[Bill Daniels]

"Don Johnstone" > wrote in
message ...
> I have just read through this thread. I don't think
> the problem is one single factor but there is a problem
> with infrastructure. Just look around your club, what
> is the average age of the instructors? Is that average
> reducing? Are the numbers of instructors increasing
> year on year? The sad truth is that if we were able
> to recruit large numbers of new students most clubs
> would not have the instructor resources to train them
> and sadly if you don't enable people to see they are
> progressing at a decent rate they become disallusioned
> and find something else 'more exciting'.
> We have been seeing (in the UK) a gradually decreasing
> instructor pool. I had my first instructor category
> at 18 and until this year I had retained it. Over the
> years being an instructor has become less and less
> of an advantage and the club where I flew even charged
> me more membership that someone who did not instruct.
> I flew about 5 hours in 2003 in my own glider from
> my own club. The only time I could fly it was if I
> went away where I could not be the duty instructor.
> I don't think my case is unique. It is absolutely
> pointless trying to attract new students until we have
> put right the decline in the numbers of people qualified
> to teach them, and that means attaracting young people
> into instructing. With the cost of attaining an instructor
> category, where the potential instructor has to spend
> large amounts of his own cash, it is perhaps not surprising
> that becoming an instructor is less popular. There
> is no doubt that it is possible to purchase your own
> glider, with a reasonable performance, for less money
> than you will spend on getting a full cat rating or
> even an Ass Cat. Given that choice which way would
> you choose?
> Seeing what happens tomorrow is not a plan!!!!!
>

Good point, Don.

I think the 'care and feeding' of instructors is a world wide problem. It
belongs in the top three issues that need to be solved for the sport to
resume growth. Clubs need to start looking at flight operations from the
point of view of the instructors.

Many clubs in the US require that an instructor pay initialization fees and
dues for the "privilege" of instructing for free.

I once asked a club for a simple favor of a bottle of water between student
flights and was told "we don't have bottled water - here's your next
student". I think it's possible that many of the training accidents are, at
least in part, caused by dehydrated instructors.

If you assembled a group of instructors and asked them, "What would make
your job more fun?" one of the answers would surely be, "Get us more
comfortable trainers". Another answer might be, "Get us a mobile office at
the launch point where student records can be stored and where we can sit
down out of the weather and fill out paper work."

Without enthusiastic instructors, there is no sport of soaring.

Bill Daniels

[Mark James Boyd]

Two hindrances here in the USA: not enough instructors and not
enough examiners.

As far as instructors go, until recently, one needed to pass four
exams (private, commercial, instrument, instructor) to become
an airplane flight instructor. All this to fly a Piper J-3 Cub
on a sunny day.

Glider instructors needed a private, commercial, and instructor rating.
The private and commercial standards are identical for all performance
tasks except banks are +/-5 deg, airspeed is +/-5 knots, and landing
spot is +/-100feet (instead of +5/-10 deg, +10/-5knots, and +/-200ft).
The commercial test seems utterly redundant to me; one could acheive
an indistinguishable level of safety by simply applying a second
Private Pilot test.

The newly finalized Sport Pilot rule eliminates the commercial
rating (and the instrument for power) for those wanting to be instructors in
"Light Sport Gliders," something like a SGS 2-33 or Ka-7 or ASK-13.

So part of the problem has been ameliorated. It has also become very easy
for instructors in one category (like airplanes) to become glider
instructors. This just takes the signatures of two glider instructors:
no examiner is involved.

Which brings us to the subject of examiners. There aren't that many.
With over 80,000 instructors and about 1100 examiners, you can figure
out the effects.

When the FAA sort of relieved itself of the responsibility of
giving many flight tests, it gave this over to US "designated pilot
examiners(DPEs)." These are private profiteers, vetted by the FAA for
quality, who give (most of) the FAA flight tests.

As related to me by a longtime examiner, this was his story. He said
when this program began, the FAA granted the DPE to whoever met the
minimum qualifications, and was competent. After the first few years,
there was heavy complaining from the DPEs that they weren't getting enough
business to justify the recurrency and "hassle," and many didn't
renew. Over time, the FAA got sick of the fairly high turnover of DPEs,
and became more selective. The minimums were just a start: beyond that
they took only the best.

DPE quality and consistency improved. Less turnover. The FAA was better
able to manage the DPEs. Standards were developed over longer terms,
and the professional DPEs became more common (although there are
still some low output DPEs who essentially do exams part time).

So cost to the FAA decreased, and quality improved. What's the problem?
Well, a four week wait to get an exam is a problem (for some people).
For some people, paying $250-$500 to have a very overqualified 10,000 hour
pilot watch them do steep turns is a lot of money.
Especially if you already have a pilot license.

Is this necessary? Well, no. The FAA with Sport Pilot has moved
to a point where the FAA or a designee (DPE) gets one look at
you for each level (Private/SP or Instructor). Then the switch to
other cat/class in low(er) performance aircraft is easy (just two
instructors, who outnumber examiners by 75/1).

Win win win for everyone. The examiners may actually get MORE
applicants as airplane pilots get sucked into and hooked on
gliders under the "easy transition" rules, and then want
full privileges (in Grob 103 and Blanik L-13, requiring a checkride).
The FAA is happy, because they get to keep the quality of the
DPEs high.

The instructors get more students, getting the same amount of
training but with a result that is slightly better than
just soloing.

The pilots get relief from some checkride pressures.
For the ones that want to be a Sport Pilot CFI in gliders and
in airplanes, this is only two checkrides. No IFR, no complex,
no commercial time, just two checkrides. Before, this was
SIX checkrides. A huge difference...

So if your country doesn't have something like Sport Pilot,
then I can see issues.

Good luck!

Mark

In article >,
Don Johnstone > wrote:
>I have just read through this thread. I don't think
>the problem is one single factor but there is a problem
>with infrastructure. Just look around your club, what
>is the average age of the instructors? Is that average
>reducing? Are the numbers of instructors increasing
>year on year? The sad truth is that if we were able
>to recruit large numbers of new students most clubs
>would not have the instructor resources to train them
>and sadly if you don't enable people to see they are
>progressing at a decent rate they become disallusioned
>and find something else 'more exciting'.
>We have been seeing (in the UK) a gradually decreasing
>instructor pool. I had my first instructor category
>at 18 and until this year I had retained it. Over the
>years being an instructor has become less and less
>of an advantage and the club where I flew even charged
>me more membership that someone who did not instruct.
>I flew about 5 hours in 2003 in my own glider from
>my own club. The only time I could fly it was if I
>went away where I could not be the duty instructor.
>I don't think my case is unique. It is absolutely
>pointless trying to attract new students until we have
>put right the decline in the numbers of people qualified
>to teach them, and that means attaracting young people
>into instructing. With the cost of attaining an instructor
>category, where the potential instructor has to spend
>large amounts of his own cash, it is perhaps not surprising
>that becoming an instructor is less popular. There
>is no doubt that it is possible to purchase your own
>glider, with a reasonable performance, for less money
>than you will spend on getting a full cat rating or
>even an Ass Cat. Given that choice which way would
>you choose?
>Seeing what happens tomorrow is not a plan!!!!!
>
>At 08:30 04 December 2004, Mike Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>>Todays youth have more disposable income than most
>>>of us could ever have
>>>dreamed of at their age and in the future they are
>>>likely to have more
>>>leisure time and even more money.
>>
>>Not sure about more leisure time. People seem to have
>>to work harder
>>than they did 30 years ago.
>>
>>>Flying has to become something that
>>>youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather
>>>than sticking with the
>>>old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every
>>>club committee member
>>>on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
>>>baseball caps,
>>>wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into
>>>the 21st century. Us
>>>old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
>>>if you ask me.
>>>
>>Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the
>>average age of the
>>members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70.
>>It may be slightly
>>younger at weekends, but not by very much.
>>
>>>We need a new approach.
>>>
>>>Ian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Mike Lindsay
>>
>
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Steve Hill]

Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors, there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where "soaring" is taught. Perhaps in Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and there are far more
places to participate and get trained. And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think we learn the art of
"soaring" by more of an osmosis type approach...?? I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is enough...I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then into racing if they so
desire...as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I always get a little existential about soaring, but I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life Blood of the
SPORT....not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better suit up with the "Flame
Suit" Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but still...it is a point
worth discussing.


Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.



Steve.

[Mark James Boyd]

If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about the problem
with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:

"It's more runways, stupid."

I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same vein, I'll
say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors, plenty
of tugs, plenty of gliderports...

What we need is more PILOTS!

I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at Avenal,
instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork. As I've
harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots at
Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of these
are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the FAA
glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
boosters in our area. One of my other friends with a 182
is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.

So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of pilots.

But where are they?

Steve Hill > wrote:
>Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors, there is no sport of
>soaring.
>
>I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is that I have yet to hear
>of many clubs where "soaring" is taught. Perhaps in Europe, but not in the
>U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full teaching people to
>operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik to their version of
>passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually anyone wanting to fly
>sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply become an ASEL private
>pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to just pursue a Private
>Glider license, I believe.

Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport, and count in the commute
time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from a gliderport,
and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd pay the ASEL CFI,
you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer to pay the FBO
the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane, too. You'll see the
owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.

>You certainly can schedule time much more easily and there are far more
>places to participate and get trained.

Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1. And GA airports are
all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There are about 30
gliderports.

>And really ...honestly...without
>meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think we learn the art of
>"soaring" by more of an osmosis type approach...??

Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about weather.
And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant: it looks
easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and takes a long time.

>I think we teach people
>the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard to pressed to find an
>instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...

Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared course with a
OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring out how to
get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots of black magic
involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of 300km flights
and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and finally said
"What the heck?" The badge rules are utter spaghetti crap.

>or one who loves cross country
>flying...I know there are places where those traits are more common, but I'm
>not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is enough...

First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN you
get the weather :) Enthusiasm and skills are good, fantastic weather
is better. You either live near it, or you travel to it. Ahhhh...
travelling to it, there's a rub...

>I've thought
>for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in any way, what we really
>need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One in which the basic PTS
>is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced instructor for
>taking people into cross country soaring and then into racing if they so
>desire...

True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest flight gets
a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really pushed Hollister soaring
to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying gig to coordinates
of known "elevators", landout charts, graphics of flight paths, some wave
off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout, etc. It was like watching
a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean REALLY sophisticated
stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between HGC for
license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned it up a notch.

This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal. The difference?
20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100 miles away.

>as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from those above
>us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
>Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and Oregon who patiently
>answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the ones who share
>their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring. It
really appeals to the engineering side of me. And the librarians
are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember how many links I've
been pointed to.

>I always get a little existential about soaring, but I think if it's going
>to change, that Instructors have to become the Life Blood of the
>SPORT....

Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors, and then theres
instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't have
no stinkin' license or badges...

>not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but active
>involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport of Cross Country Soaring
>and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities. But be real here:
each requires a more demanding level of endurance. And I mean not
only physically and mentally, but financially and with free time.
It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to get the time
to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot sick days get used...

>I guess for the first time in a long while I better suit up with the "Flame
>Suit" Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but still...it is a point
>worth discussing.

Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let 'er rip! I love
stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the guys in the group to
set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport (you know who).

>Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.

More pilots. Period.

As Dr. Fankenstein said: "Raw materials. I need MORE raw materials!!!"

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Don Johnstone]

A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
not even understand the rudiments of cross country
flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
away.
With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you cannot
find bin Laden.


At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
>If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
>the problem
>with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:
>
>'It's more runways, stupid.'
>
>I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same
>vein, I'll
>say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
>plenty
>of tugs, plenty of gliderports...
>
>What we need is more PILOTS!
>
>I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at
>Avenal,
>instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
> As I've
>harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
>at
>Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
>these
>are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the
>FAA
>glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
>boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
>a 182
>is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.
>
>So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
>pilots.
>
>But where are they?
>
>Steve Hill wrote:
>>Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
>>there is no sport of
>>soaring.
>>
>>I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
>>that I have yet to hear
>>of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
>>Europe, but not in the
>>U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
>>teaching people to
>>operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
>>to their version of
>>passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
>>anyone wanting to fly
>>sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
>>become an ASEL private
>>pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
>>just pursue a Private
>>Glider license, I believe.
>
>Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
>and count in the commute
>time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from
>a gliderport,
>and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
>pay the ASEL CFI,
>you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
>to pay the FBO
>the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
>too. You'll see the
>owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.
>
>>You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
>>there are far more
>>places to participate and get trained.
>
>Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
>And GA airports are
>all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
>are about 30
>gliderports.
>
>>And really ...honestly...without
>>meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think
>>we learn the art of
>>'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??
>>
>
>Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
>weather.
>And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
> it looks
>easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and
>takes a long time.
>
>>I think we teach people
>>the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
>>to pressed to find an
>>instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...
>
>Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
>course with a
>OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
>out how to
>get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
>of black magic
>involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
>300km flights
>and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
>finally said
>'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
>crap.
>
>>or one who loves cross country
>>flying...I know there are places where those traits
>>are more common, but I'm
>>not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
>>enough...
>
>First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
>you
>get the weather :) Enthusiasm and skills are good,
>fantastic weather
>is better. You either live near it, or you travel
>to it. Ahhhh...
>travelling to it, there's a rub...
>
>>I've thought
>>for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in
>>any way, what we really
>>need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
>>in which the basic PTS
>>is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
>>instructor for
>>taking people into cross country soaring and then into
>>racing if they so
>>desire...
>
>True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
>flight gets
>a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
>pushed Hollister soaring
>to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying
>gig to coordinates
>of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of flight
>paths, some wave
>off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
>etc. It was like watching
>a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
>REALLY sophisticated
>stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
>HGC for
>license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
>it up a notch.
>
>This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
> The difference?
>20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
>miles away.
>
>>as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
>>those above
>>us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
>>Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
>>Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
>>Oregon who patiently
>>answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
>>ones who share
>>their knowledge...that's what we need more of...
>
>I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
> It
>really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
>the librarians
>are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
>how many links I've
>been pointed to.
>
>>I always get a little existential about soaring, but
>>I think if it's going
>>to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
>>Blood of the
>>SPORT....
>
>Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
>and then theres
>instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
>have
>no stinkin' license or badges...
>
>>not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
>>active
>>involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
>>of Cross Country Soaring
>>and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...
>
>License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
> But be real here:
>each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
> And I mean not
>only physically and mentally, but financially and with
>free time.
>It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to
>get the time
>to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
>sick days get used...
>
>>I guess for the first time in a long while I better
>>suit up with the 'Flame
>>Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
>>still...it is a point
>>worth discussing.
>
>Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
>'er rip! I love
>stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
>guys in the group to
>set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
>Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
>because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
>(you know who).
>
>>Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.
>
>More pilots. Period.
>
>As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need MORE
>raw materials!!!'
>
>--
>
>------------+
>Mark J. Boyd
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Don Johnstone wrote:
> A very insular view.

I'm not sure which view (Mark's, Steve's, Bill's, or all) you are
referring to. Why not at least hint at the part of the long post you
quoted that concerns you, or better yet, a sentence or two about why
it's a problem?

Please tell me that this person
> is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
> not even understand the rudiments of cross country
> flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
> away.

I can't tell you about their instructor qualifications, but I can assure
that the pilots you quoted do indeed understand the rudiments of cross
country flying!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[[email protected]]

Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...

The next logical step would be to say that if you don't have at least
100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone else the
finer points of field selection and managing poor choices to a safe,
full stop?

Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven bars, of that
I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery of the skill.
And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.



Don Johnstone wrote:
> A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
> is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
> not even understand the rudiments of cross country
> flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
> away.
> With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you cannot
> find bin Laden.
>
>
> At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
> >If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
> >the problem
> >with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:
> >
> >'It's more runways, stupid.'
> >
> >I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same
> >vein, I'll
> >say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
> >plenty
> >of tugs, plenty of gliderports...
> >
> >What we need is more PILOTS!
> >
> >I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at
> >Avenal,
> >instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
> > As I've
> >harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
> >at
> >Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
> >these
> >are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the
> >FAA
> >glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
> >boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
> >a 182
> >is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.
> >
> >So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
> >pilots.
> >
> >But where are they?
> >
> >Steve Hill wrote:
> >>Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
> >>there is no sport of
> >>soaring.
> >>
> >>I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
> >>that I have yet to hear
> >>of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
> >>Europe, but not in the
> >>U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
> >>teaching people to
> >>operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
> >>to their version of
> >>passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
> >>anyone wanting to fly
> >>sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
> >>become an ASEL private
> >>pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
> >>just pursue a Private
> >>Glider license, I believe.
> >
> >Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
> >and count in the commute
> >time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from
> >a gliderport,
> >and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
> >pay the ASEL CFI,
> >you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
> >to pay the FBO
> >the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
> >too. You'll see the
> >owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.
> >
> >>You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
> >>there are far more
> >>places to participate and get trained.
> >
> >Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
> >And GA airports are
> >all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
> >are about 30
> >gliderports.
> >
> >>And really ...honestly...without
> >>meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think
> >>we learn the art of
> >>'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??
> >>
> >
> >Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
> >weather.
> >And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
> > it looks
> >easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and
> >takes a long time.
> >
> >>I think we teach people
> >>the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
> >>to pressed to find an
> >>instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...
> >
> >Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
> >course with a
> >OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
> >out how to
> >get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
> >of black magic
> >involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
> >300km flights
> >and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
> >finally said
> >'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
> >crap.
> >
> >>or one who loves cross country
> >>flying...I know there are places where those traits
> >>are more common, but I'm
> >>not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
> >>enough...
> >
> >First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
> >you
> >get the weather :) Enthusiasm and skills are good,
> >fantastic weather
> >is better. You either live near it, or you travel
> >to it. Ahhhh...
> >travelling to it, there's a rub...
> >
> >>I've thought
> >>for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in
> >>any way, what we really
> >>need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
> >>in which the basic PTS
> >>is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
> >>instructor for
> >>taking people into cross country soaring and then into
> >>racing if they so
> >>desire...
> >
> >True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
> >flight gets
> >a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
> >pushed Hollister soaring
> >to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying
> >gig to coordinates
> >of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of flight
> >paths, some wave
> >off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
> >etc. It was like watching
> >a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
> >REALLY sophisticated
> >stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
> >HGC for
> >license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
> >it up a notch.
> >
> >This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
> > The difference?
> >20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
> >miles away.
> >
> >>as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
> >>those above
> >>us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
> >>Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
> >>Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
> >>Oregon who patiently
> >>answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
> >>ones who share
> >>their knowledge...that's what we need more of...
> >
> >I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
> > It
> >really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
> >the librarians
> >are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
> >how many links I've
> >been pointed to.
> >
> >>I always get a little existential about soaring, but
> >>I think if it's going
> >>to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
> >>Blood of the
> >>SPORT....
> >
> >Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
> >and then theres
> >instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
> >have
> >no stinkin' license or badges...
> >
> >>not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
> >>active
> >>involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
> >>of Cross Country Soaring
> >>and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...
> >
> >License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
> > But be real here:
> >each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
> > And I mean not
> >only physically and mentally, but financially and with
> >free time.
> >It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to
> >get the time
> >to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
> >sick days get used...
> >
> >>I guess for the first time in a long while I better
> >>suit up with the 'Flame
> >>Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
> >>still...it is a point
> >>worth discussing.
> >
> >Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
> >'er rip! I love
> >stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
> >guys in the group to
> >set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
> >Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
> >because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
> >(you know who).
> >
> >>Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.
> >
> >More pilots. Period.
> >
> >As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need MORE
> >raw materials!!!'
> >
> >--
> >
> >------------+
> >Mark J. Boyd
> >

[[email protected]]

Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...

The next logical step would be to say that if you don't have at least
100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone else the
finer points of field selection and managing poor choices to a safe,
full stop?

Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven bars, of that
I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery of the skill.
And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.



Don Johnstone wrote:
> A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
> is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
> not even understand the rudiments of cross country
> flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
> away.
> With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you cannot
> find bin Laden.
>
>
> At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
> >If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
> >the problem
> >with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:
> >
> >'It's more runways, stupid.'
> >
> >I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same
> >vein, I'll
> >say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
> >plenty
> >of tugs, plenty of gliderports...
> >
> >What we need is more PILOTS!
> >
> >I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at
> >Avenal,
> >instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
> > As I've
> >harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
> >at
> >Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
> >these
> >are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the
> >FAA
> >glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
> >boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
> >a 182
> >is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.
> >
> >So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
> >pilots.
> >
> >But where are they?
> >
> >Steve Hill wrote:
> >>Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
> >>there is no sport of
> >>soaring.
> >>
> >>I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
> >>that I have yet to hear
> >>of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
> >>Europe, but not in the
> >>U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
> >>teaching people to
> >>operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
> >>to their version of
> >>passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
> >>anyone wanting to fly
> >>sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
> >>become an ASEL private
> >>pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
> >>just pursue a Private
> >>Glider license, I believe.
> >
> >Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
> >and count in the commute
> >time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from
> >a gliderport,
> >and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
> >pay the ASEL CFI,
> >you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
> >to pay the FBO
> >the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
> >too. You'll see the
> >owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.
> >
> >>You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
> >>there are far more
> >>places to participate and get trained.
> >
> >Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
> >And GA airports are
> >all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
> >are about 30
> >gliderports.
> >
> >>And really ...honestly...without
> >>meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think
> >>we learn the art of
> >>'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??
> >>
> >
> >Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
> >weather.
> >And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
> > it looks
> >easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and
> >takes a long time.
> >
> >>I think we teach people
> >>the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
> >>to pressed to find an
> >>instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...
> >
> >Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
> >course with a
> >OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
> >out how to
> >get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
> >of black magic
> >involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
> >300km flights
> >and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
> >finally said
> >'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
> >crap.
> >
> >>or one who loves cross country
> >>flying...I know there are places where those traits
> >>are more common, but I'm
> >>not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
> >>enough...
> >
> >First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
> >you
> >get the weather :) Enthusiasm and skills are good,
> >fantastic weather
> >is better. You either live near it, or you travel
> >to it. Ahhhh...
> >travelling to it, there's a rub...
> >
> >>I've thought
> >>for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in
> >>any way, what we really
> >>need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
> >>in which the basic PTS
> >>is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
> >>instructor for
> >>taking people into cross country soaring and then into
> >>racing if they so
> >>desire...
> >
> >True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
> >flight gets
> >a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
> >pushed Hollister soaring
> >to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying
> >gig to coordinates
> >of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of flight
> >paths, some wave
> >off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
> >etc. It was like watching
> >a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
> >REALLY sophisticated
> >stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
> >HGC for
> >license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
> >it up a notch.
> >
> >This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
> > The difference?
> >20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
> >miles away.
> >
> >>as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
> >>those above
> >>us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
> >>Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
> >>Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
> >>Oregon who patiently
> >>answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
> >>ones who share
> >>their knowledge...that's what we need more of...
> >
> >I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
> > It
> >really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
> >the librarians
> >are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
> >how many links I've
> >been pointed to.
> >
> >>I always get a little existential about soaring, but
> >>I think if it's going
> >>to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
> >>Blood of the
> >>SPORT....
> >
> >Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
> >and then theres
> >instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
> >have
> >no stinkin' license or badges...
> >
> >>not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
> >>active
> >>involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
> >>of Cross Country Soaring
> >>and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...
> >
> >License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
> > But be real here:
> >each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
> > And I mean not
> >only physically and mentally, but financially and with
> >free time.
> >It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to
> >get the time
> >to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
> >sick days get used...
> >
> >>I guess for the first time in a long while I better
> >>suit up with the 'Flame
> >>Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
> >>still...it is a point
> >>worth discussing.
> >
> >Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
> >'er rip! I love
> >stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
> >guys in the group to
> >set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
> >Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
> >because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
> >(you know who).
> >
> >>Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.
> >
> >More pilots. Period.
> >
> >As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need MORE
> >raw materials!!!'
> >
> >--
> >
> >------------+
> >Mark J. Boyd
> >

[Michel Talon]

wrote:
> Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
> flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
> is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
> experience of his own.
>
> Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
> I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
> hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...
>

I suppose you are an instructor for saying such crap. One of the reasons
why soaring is not going too well is the existence of instructors of
this sort. In my opinion an instructor who is not proficient in XC is
totally disqualified to teach soaring, because he doesn't know squat in
what is the essence of soaring. I had the chance of getting some
lessons with an instructor who was both young and dedicated to XC, this
changed everything in my perception of the sport and i understood i had
completely lost my time with the other guys.



--

Michel TALON

[Don Johnstone]

I apologise, I was in a hurry. My comment about hoping
the writer was not an instructor was meant for Mark.
I have no problem with the view he holds concerning
badges and cross country, but to assume that eveyone
else should have the same view is why we don't attract
people. In my experience people aspire to much more,
cross country and the attaining of badges is important
to them and we have to give them that if we are to
attract people. Of course there are those who don't
want badges and who just want to local soar or circuit
bash and we also have to cater for them. One of the
worst things we can do is assume that others want what
we want. It was that assumtion that I took exception
to. If Mark was an instructor how would his students
feel?

As for teaching cross country you do need the experience
of having done it. To get an instructor rating in the
UK you must have at least a Silver Badge. I had a thousand
hours of teaching students to fly the circuit and local
soar (military category) but it was not until I left
that 6 years ago that I was able to learn and teach
the finer points of cross country. I gave up instructing
because I have lost the most important and essential
attribute that an instructor needs, enthusiasm. Who
wants to be taught by someone who cannot enthuse about
gliding. How long would a person stay.

I am aware the conditions in the USA are totally different
from over here. My original post was based on the problems
we are experiencing in the UK.

At 23:30 15 December 2004,
wrote:
>Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach
>the fundamentals of
>flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated
>to his art, that
>is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without
>any X-C
>experience of his own.
>
>Is he a better instructor for having done it himself?
>Of course, and so
>I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But
>I wouldn't be too
>hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no
>X-C experience...
>
>The next logical step would be to say that if you don't
>have at least
>100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone
>else the
>finer points of field selection and managing poor choices
>to a safe,
>full stop?
>
>Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven
>bars, of that
>I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery
>of the skill.
>And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.
>
>
>
>Don Johnstone wrote:
>> A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
>> is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who
>>does
>> not even understand the rudiments of cross country
>> flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
>> away.
>> With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you
>>cannot
>> find bin Laden.
>>
>>
>> At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
>> >If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
>> >the problem
>> >with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:
>> >
>> >'It's more runways, stupid.'
>> >
>> >I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the
>>>same
>> >vein, I'll
>> >say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
>> >plenty
>> >of tugs, plenty of gliderports...
>> >
>> >What we need is more PILOTS!
>> >
>> >I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots
>>>at
>> >Avenal,
>> >instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
>> > As I've
>> >harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
>> >at
>> >Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
>> >these
>> >are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck,
>>>the
>> >FAA
>> >glider guy in our area has become one of the more
>>>supportive
>> >boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
>> >a 182
>> >is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.
>> >
>> >So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
>> >pilots.
>> >
>> >But where are they?
>> >
>> >Steve Hill wrote:
>> >>Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
>> >>there is no sport of
>> >>soaring.
>> >>
>> >>I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
>> >>that I have yet to hear
>> >>of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
>> >>Europe, but not in the
>> >>U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
>> >>teaching people to
>> >>operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
>> >>to their version of
>> >>passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
>> >>anyone wanting to fly
>> >>sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
>> >>become an ASEL private
>> >>pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
>> >>just pursue a Private
>> >>Glider license, I believe.
>> >
>> >Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
>> >and count in the commute
>> >time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles
>>>from
>> >a gliderport,
>> >and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
>> >pay the ASEL CFI,
>> >you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
>> >to pay the FBO
>> >the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
>> >too. You'll see the
>> >owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.
>> >
>> >>You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
>> >>there are far more
>> >>places to participate and get trained.
>> >
>> >Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
>> >And GA airports are
>> >all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
>> >are about 30
>> >gliderports.
>> >
>> >>And really ...honestly...without
>> >>meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta
>>>>think
>> >>we learn the art of
>> >>'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??
>> >>
>> >
>> >Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
>> >weather.
>> >And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
>> > it looks
>> >easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy,
>>>and
>> >takes a long time.
>> >
>> >>I think we teach people
>> >>the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
>> >>to pressed to find an
>> >>instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...
>> >
>> >Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
>> >course with a
>> >OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
>> >out how to
>> >get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
>> >of black magic
>> >involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
>> >300km flights
>> >and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
>> >finally said
>> >'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
>> >crap.
>> >
>> >>or one who loves cross country
>> >>flying...I know there are places where those traits
>> >>are more common, but I'm
>> >>not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
>> >>enough...
>> >
>> >First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
>> >you
>> >get the weather :) Enthusiasm and skills are good,
>> >fantastic weather
>> >is better. You either live near it, or you travel
>> >to it. Ahhhh...
>> >travelling to it, there's a rub...
>> >
>> >>I've thought
>> >>for some time now, that for the sport to flourish
>>>>in
>> >>any way, what we really
>> >>need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
>> >>in which the basic PTS
>> >>is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
>> >>instructor for
>> >>taking people into cross country soaring and then
>>>>into
>> >>racing if they so
>> >>desire...
>> >
>> >True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
>> >flight gets
>> >a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
>> >pushed Hollister soaring
>> >to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local
>>>flying
>> >gig to coordinates
>> >of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of
>>>flight
>> >paths, some wave
>> >off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
>> >etc. It was like watching
>> >a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
>> >REALLY sophisticated
>> >stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
>> >HGC for
>> >license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
>> >it up a notch.
>> >
>> >This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
>> > The difference?
>> >20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
>> >miles away.
>> >
>> >>as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
>> >>those above
>> >>us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
>> >>Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
>> >>Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
>> >>Oregon who patiently
>> >>answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
>> >>ones who share
>> >>their knowledge...that's what we need more of...
>> >
>> >I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
>> > It
>> >really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
>> >the librarians
>> >are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
>> >how many links I've
>> >been pointed to.
>> >
>> >>I always get a little existential about soaring, but
>> >>I think if it's going
>> >>to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
>> >>Blood of the
>> >>SPORT....
>> >
>> >Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
>> >and then theres
>> >instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
>> >have
>> >no stinkin' license or badges...
>> >
>> >>not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
>> >>active
>> >>involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
>> >>of Cross Country Soaring
>> >>and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...
>> >
>> >License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
>> > But be real here:
>> >each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
>> > And I mean not
>> >only physically and mentally, but financially and
>>>with
>> >free time.
>> >It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot
>>>to
>> >get the time
>> >to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
>> >sick days get used...
>> >
>> >>I guess for the first time in a long while I better
>> >>suit up with the 'Flame
>> >>Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
>> >>still...it is a point
>> >>worth discussing.
>> >
>> >Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
>> >'er rip! I love
>> >stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
>> >guys in the group to
>> >set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
>> >Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
>> >because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
>> >(you know who).
>> >
>> >>Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.
>> >
>> >More pilots. Period.
>> >
>> >As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need
>>>MORE
>> >raw materials!!!'
>> >
>> >--
>> >
>> >------------+
>> >Mark J. Boyd
>> >
>
>

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
> flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
> is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
> experience of his own.
>
> Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
> I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
> hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...
>
> The next logical step would be to say that if you don't have at least
> 100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone else the
> finer points of field selection and managing poor choices to a safe,
> full stop?
>
> Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven bars, of that
> I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery of the skill.
> And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.
>

There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that puts a
completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with perfect
airspeed control.

Bill Daniels

[Nyal Williams]

At 00:00 16 December 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
wrote:
>> Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach
>>the fundamentals of
>> flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated
>>to his art, that
>> is, teaching, he can take most students quite far
>>without any X-C
>> experience of his own.
>>
>> Is he a better instructor for having done it himself?
>>Of course, and so
>> I would encourage him to expand his own horizons.
>>But I wouldn't be too
>> hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no
>>X-C experience...
>>
>
>I suppose you are an instructor for saying such crap.
>One of the reasons
>why soaring is not going too well is the existence
>of instructors of
>this sort. In my opinion an instructor who is not proficient
>in XC is
>totally disqualified to teach soaring, because he doesn't
>know squat in
>what is the essence of soaring. I had the chance of
>getting some
>lessons with an instructor who was both young and dedicated
>to XC, this
>changed everything in my perception of the sport and
>i understood i had
>completely lost my time with the other guys.
>
>Michel TALON
>

But your own experience does not qualify you to make
such a broad generalization. Perhaps you did not get
to the new instructor early enough.

Beginning piano students do not need a teacher from
Juilliard or the French Conservatory. If the teacher
is good and enthusiastic the student will learn the
fundamentals and enjoy the experience. A good teacher
will release a student to learn what the teacher cannot
teach and will suggest further training elsewhere.

The beginner in school does not need a calculus professor
to teach basic arithmetic.

I do agree that the initial instructor must have enthusiasm
for the work and must teach a wider vision than just
the maneuvers being taught.

Your experience may well have been unfortunate but
it does not represent everyone's experience.

We would do well in the USA to have a two-tier instructor
level, but all of aviation is organized differently
here. SSA is attempting to increase the number of
'Master Instructors' who can teach XC flying and it
is very much needed.

Lets not insult all the instructors who are teaching
basic flying techniques. The earliest teaching is
the most significant for attitude and for safe flying.

[Bob Whelan]

Someone wrote <snip>
> wrote:
> > Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
> > flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
> > is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
> > experience of his own.
> >
> > Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
> > I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
> > hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...
> >
>
> I suppose you are an instructor for saying such crap. One of the reasons
> why soaring is not going too well is the existence of instructors of
> this sort. In my opinion an instructor who is not proficient in XC is
> totally disqualified to teach soaring, because he doesn't know squat in
> what is the essence of soaring. <snip>
- - - - - -

I'm sorry, but thanks to technology I was able to dredge up the following
from a thread 4 years ago. I haven't changed any relevant opinions since
writing it then... :-)

Regards,

Bob - not an instructor - W.
- - - - - -
<snip>

A Fractured Fairy Tale

Once upon a time, my instructor sold two 1/3 shares of the ship he built to
two of his recently erstwhile student pilots. Soon afterwards, one weekend
while practicing for a fun 3-day contest the next weekend at COSA (a far
distant gliderport in a far distant state), one of the tyros landed out in a
field, whereupon his partners retrieved him...and brought Our Hero the beer
themselves. (Lo! It was a strange day all around.)

The next weekend Our Hero drew the straw for day #1. He finished 4th in a
field of 12, and only several days behind the 3rd of the 4 finishers. He
judged his final glide so well that after crossing the finish line, he
stayed up to finish his 5 hours.

The next day the Wise Instructor drew the straw. He landed out hardly
halfway around the triangle, in a field too beautiful to describe.
Displaying nerves of steel, our Wise Instructor drove the crew car back to
the airport all by himself. Along the way he revealed that now, he too, had
his first landout under his belt. Our Hero experienced a hot flash. "Who
are YOU to be teaching me how to make off field landings when you hadn't
made one yourself?!?" he spake with ill-concealed heat, while feeling
vaguely shortchanged.

Wise Instructor turned toward the back seat with a twinkle in his eyes.
"What did you need to know last week that you didn't know?" was his
response.

Truly this was a puzzling question to Our Hero, who pondered the question
seriously for the rest of the return to the airport...and for many days
thereafter. Forsooth (for whom?), the answer was "Nothing," both then and
later, even after he continued to add to his landout knowledge firsthand.

Years later, Our Hero learned from rec.aviation.soaring that the 1-26 he
flew for several hundred hours and in which he made his first 4 landouts,
was incapable of cross country flight. This bemused him even more than his
instructor's question.

And he lived happily ever after.


Bob - who still believes in Santa Claus and 1-26's - Whelan


---
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[[email protected]]

On the other hand, the guy with thousands of hours of local
twirlibirding will be much better at teaching you to get the glider
back on the ground before the other guys in the club get mad at you.

[Eric Greenwell]

Bill Daniels wrote:

>
> There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that puts a
> completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
> instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
> without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with perfect
> airspeed control.

I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
(though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
required. There are moments on some cross-country flights when good
coordination and speed control (but not anything like "perfect") are
essentials, but it's not the cross-country part that requires it: it's
the landing, and a good instructor can teach that without XC experience.

As I know it, cross-country flying is rarely about handling the glider,
but instead is mostly about judging the weather, observing likely lift
areas, and keeping a safe landing place in reach.

Sure, a good instructor with cross-country experience is more desirable
than a good instructor without it, but the most important part is very
much the "good instructor". Cross-country experience will not turn a
mediocre instructor into a good instructor. The experience might make it
easier for him to entice students into going cross-country, but I don't
think his students will as good at handling the glider than those of a
good instructor.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bill Daniels]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> >
> > There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that
puts a
> > completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
> > instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
> > without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with
perfect
> > airspeed control.
>
> I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
> (though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
> have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
> required.

It's because with that skill you can climb in a weak thermal a sloppy pilot
can't use. Sooner or later, that will make the difference in getting home.

In addition, every TE probe I have flown with is sensitive to even slight
yaw angles. If the glider is always yawing, the TE vario data isn't
reliable and centering a thermal will be harder.

Bill Daniels

[Eric Greenwell]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that
>
> puts a
>
>>>completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
>>>instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
>>>without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with perfect
>>>airspeed control.
>>
>>I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
>>(though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
>>have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
>>required.
>
>
> It's because with that skill you can climb in a weak thermal a sloppy pilot
> can't use. Sooner or later, that will make the difference in getting home.

THis kind of thing seems so far from the basics, that I never taught it,
nor would I expect a newly licensed glider pilot to be able to work a
weak thermal better than "adequate" (not perfectly, that's for sure). I
did not tolerate "sloppy" flying, however, nor should any instructor.

> In addition, every TE probe I have flown with is sensitive to even slight
> yaw angles. If the glider is always yawing, the TE vario data isn't
> reliable and centering a thermal will be harder.

You need to find a better probe! The ones I've used don't require
perfection, just "good" flying, thank goodness, or I'd be on the ground
a lot more often. In a weak thermal, I think "steady" flying, not
perfect airspeed or coordination, is required to feel the thermal on the
glider and give the vario it's best chance to detect it. Again, these
opportuities to teach flying in weak lift abound in the training
situation, since this is when training is often done.

--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bill Daniels]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >

> THis kind of thing seems so far from the basics, that I never taught it,
> nor would I expect a newly licensed glider pilot to be able to work a
> weak thermal better than "adequate" (not perfectly, that's for sure). I
> did not tolerate "sloppy" flying, however, nor should any instructor.
>
> > In addition, every TE probe I have flown with is sensitive to even
slight
> > yaw angles. If the glider is always yawing, the TE vario data isn't
> > reliable and centering a thermal will be harder.
>
> You need to find a better probe! The ones I've used don't require
> perfection, just "good" flying, thank goodness, or I'd be on the ground
> a lot more often. In a weak thermal, I think "steady" flying, not
> perfect airspeed or coordination, is required to feel the thermal on the
> glider and give the vario it's best chance to detect it. Again, these
> opportuities to teach flying in weak lift abound in the training
> situation, since this is when training is often done.
>

Show me a competitor in any field that says, "I don't need to sweat the
basics" and I'll show you a loser.

I teach that good is good, better is better and the best are those that stay
up and win contests. The best pilots always strive to get as close to
perfection and as their talent will permit. They never stop learning. Just
being "good enough" is not an option.

After all, even extraordinary flying skill weighs nothing, adds no drag and
doesn't consume battery power. In the long run, it's the cheapest thing you
can acquire to improve soaring performance.

I don't need a new TE probe. Mine doesn't fly sideways.

Bill Daniels

[lennie]

<Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,>

To my dogs and daughter, maybe. Not much else counts.

You don't realize how much of what you see as important really isn't
until you've lost that which is really important. You don't appreciate
healthy kids until you've spent fifteen minutes after finding your 34
year old daughter in the bathroom, naked, leaning on the sink with
fecal matter over more than half of herself, and incapable of taking
care of it herself. You don't appreciate being able to spend even a
half hour at the local hobby shop until you're in a position where you
can't be gone that long.

Important? Maybe to one other person, but she's the only one that's
important to me.

>From May to the end of November, she might have spent 40 days not in a
hospital, we're now going on an 18 day stretch with her home. I've
learned to appreciate those things that are important. You'd be
surprised at how few important things there really are. Keeping her
able to stay at home even for one more day is far more important than
all of the hours I've spent at (hobby location of your choice.)

[Eric Greenwell]

Bill Daniels wrote:


> Show me a competitor in any field that says, "I don't need to sweat the
> basics" and I'll show you a loser.

Paul McCready was the most famous of the pilots I know that espoused
that philosophy ("I don't need to sweat the basics"). I don't recall the
details now, but in essence, he said soaring competition wasn't about
keeping the yaw string straight, but being in better lift longer than
your competitors.

>
> I teach that good is good, better is better and the best are those that stay
> up and win contests. The best pilots always strive to get as close to
> perfection and as their talent will permit. They never stop learning. Just
> being "good enough" is not an option.
>
> After all, even extraordinary flying skill weighs nothing, adds no drag and
> doesn't consume battery power. In the long run, it's the cheapest thing you
> can acquire to improve soaring performance.

This is all true, but it's a far cry from the original contention that
cross-country experience makes an instructor better at teaching the
basics. I still maintain a good instructor without cross-country
experience can teach the basics better than a mediocre instructor that
has cross-country experience. I encourage all instructors to try
cross-country because he/she might enjoy it and might be able to instill
that joy in a student, but a good instructor should not feel less valued
because he doesn't have it.


--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Janos Bauer]

I have to agree with Bill and Michel. I prefer instructors (and even
club members) with xc experience (or intention to go xc) because that's
where you have to show your best. I believe xc is an ultimate soaring
exam. You can climb from 150-200m locally but can you repeat it 100km
away under stress of outlanding? Can you afford to make any mistake
(yawing for a while, choose wrong path or speed) when try to make a l/d
max final glide?
You always learn something new and feel as a student again. Hanging
around the airport could be boring and doesn't attract new members. We
shouldn't be lazy to settle down and just telling the 10-20 year old
stories... We should go out again and again and collect new experiences
(and share it at the airport's pub of course;). XC experience valuable
for the soaring community only if you share it.
I don't say that instructors without xc experience can't do basic
training. I just think basic training is not too much, training is
really done if the student made the first 300k... How do you support
your student if you haven't done what she/he is about to try?

/Jancsika (a beginner xc pilot, maybe instructor from next spring)

[Michel Talon]

Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> has cross-country experience. I encourage all instructors to try
> cross-country because he/she might enjoy it and might be able to instill
> that joy in a student, but a good instructor should not feel less valued

Finally you get it! this is the alpha and omega of soaring. If the
student doesn't get the joy of soaring, he will not stay in the game for
long, if he does he may stay for very long. I have known many
instructors who are only able to disgust their student of soaring,
precisely because they never have experimented these sensations and only
invest themselves in trivial technical details. These people take for
granted that the student is very eager to fly and they can do everything
in their power do curb him to their discipline. Don't search long why
youngsters fly away from soaring.

> because he doesn't have it.

--

Michel TALON

[Mark James Boyd]

Michel Talon > wrote:

>I have known many
>instructors who are only able to disgust their student of soaring,
>precisely because they never have experimented these sensations and only
>invest themselves in trivial technical details.

Wow! I've met instructors who want to get someone to license
quickly, but I've never met one who "disgusted a student to soaring."

Flying safely, longer, higher, further and faster is the whole essense
of the joy of the "sport." The first standard (the minimum level of
safety) is the license standard in the USA, but I haven't seen
instructors poo-poo the other steps (the soaring, vs. gliding steps).

I'm surprised, and sorry, to hear that Michel's experience has
been different...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Eric Greenwell]

Janos Bauer wrote:
>
> I have to agree with Bill and Michel. I prefer instructors (and even
> club members) with xc experience (or intention to go xc) because that's
> where you have to show your best.

"All other things being equal", so do I; however, I know good
cross-country pilots that are not good instructors (most of these don't
instruct, fortunately), and frankly, some them have poor flying skills.
But, boy, can they find the lift and use it!

I believe xc is an ultimate soaring
> exam.

The things that make you good at cross-country are not the things you
need to fly safely. Cross-country flying is mainly about figuring out
where the lift is, then using the best of it. It is not about keeping
the yaw string straight, holding your speed to +/- 1 knot while
thermalling, or making coordinated turns. Those things help, but if
that's all it took, I'd be a winning contest pilot instead of an also-ran.

You can climb from 150-200m locally but can you repeat it 100km
> away under stress of outlanding?

Teaching a student to handle stress and distraction is very important,
but it's a difficult job that can only be started with basic training.
Even more important is to teach the student to avoid situations that
cause more stress than he can handle. This is also difficult. My point
is a student can be taught enough of this stress management (by a non-XC
instructor) to qualify for a license and fly safely. It won't be all he
needs to know about it for every flight he might make in the future, but
we all do some "on-the-job" learning, don't we?

> Can you afford to make any mistake
> (yawing for a while, choose wrong path or speed) when try to make a l/d
> max final glide?

Yes, you can. Goodness knows, I've done it many times myself, and I'm
here to tell you about it. It means you aren't as likely to get home and
win the contest, but it's not a safety issue, because you keep a safe
landing area within easy reach. You do, don't you? You don't try that
max l/d final glide across a forest, I hope!

> You always learn something new and feel as a student again. Hanging
> around the airport could be boring and doesn't attract new members. We
> shouldn't be lazy to settle down and just telling the 10-20 year old
> stories... We should go out again and again and collect new experiences
> (and share it at the airport's pub of course;). XC experience valuable
> for the soaring community only if you share it.
> I don't say that instructors without xc experience can't do basic
> training. I just think basic training is not too much, training is
> really done if the student made the first 300k... How do you support
> your student if you haven't done what she/he is about to try?

The instructor doesn't have to do it all. If the club (or a commercial
operation) has cross-country pilots flying from the same airport, these
pilots can guide the student or newly licensed pilot into cross-country
flying. They can do this by example, by flying with the new pilot in one
of the two seaters, by pair flying, by holding ground schools, and so on.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Janos Bauer]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Janos Bauer wrote:
>
>>
>> I have to agree with Bill and Michel. I prefer instructors (and even
>> club members) with xc experience (or intention to go xc) because
>> that's where you have to show your best.
>
>
> "All other things being equal", so do I; however, I know good
> cross-country pilots that are not good instructors (most of these don't
> instruct, fortunately), and frankly, some them have poor flying skills.
> But, boy, can they find the lift and use it!

My point was only about the advantage of xc experience. If we have two
good instructors and if one of them has xc experience that is more
valuable for me. That's all. I don't state that simple xc experience
will make you good instructor. Even an asshole could fly xc. The key is
to teach what you experience on xc. To transfer all those complicated
lessons in an understandable way requires to be really clever.

> I believe xc is an ultimate soaring
>
>> exam.
>
> The things that make you good at cross-country are not the things you
> need to fly safely. Cross-country flying is mainly about figuring out
> where the lift is, then using the best of it. It is not about keeping
> the yaw string straight, holding your speed to +/- 1 knot while
> thermalling, or making coordinated turns. Those things help, but if
> that's all it took, I'd be a winning contest pilot instead of an also-ran.

Hmm, the best instructors who taught me always warned us to pay
attention on details (yaw string, speed, bank angle etc-etc). They were
also successful xc pilots, some of them finished on top several
contests. We fly on flatland only and that makes much difference.
I know that contest is a different issue. XC in club environment, when
only 2-4 pilot is on the task, is more valuable for me.

> You can climb from 150-200m locally but can you repeat it 100km
>
>> away under stress of outlanding?
>
>
> Teaching a student to handle stress and distraction is very important,
> but it's a difficult job that can only be started with basic training.
> Even more important is to teach the student to avoid situations that
> cause more stress than he can handle. This is also difficult. My point
> is a student can be taught enough of this stress management (by a non-XC
> instructor) to qualify for a license and fly safely. It won't be all he
> needs to know about it for every flight he might make in the future, but
> we all do some "on-the-job" learning, don't we?

Around the airport there just much less impact on the pilot. You can
teach about stress better if you experience it. It's just so useful to
sit down with the "old" pilots and listen what they experienced an
his/her xc tasks. Of course several unexpected things could happen
around the airport but on the task there are much more chance to face
something new. And those cases you have to use your brain...

>> Can you afford to make any mistake (yawing for a while, choose wrong
>> path or speed) when try to make a l/d max final glide?
>
>
> Yes, you can. Goodness knows, I've done it many times myself, and I'm
> here to tell you about it. It means you aren't as likely to get home and
> win the contest, but it's not a safety issue, because you keep a safe
> landing area within easy reach. You do, don't you? You don't try that
> max l/d final glide across a forest, I hope!

No, it's not about safety in this case. For example on my first 300km
I started my final glide in a Pirat at 2200m ~60km from the field. I
passed several outlanding places so it was safe but a really long glide
with max l/d speed, yaw string centered. The other pilot outlanded that
day...

>> You always learn something new and feel as a student again. Hanging
>> around the airport could be boring and doesn't attract new members. We
>> shouldn't be lazy to settle down and just telling the 10-20 year old
>> stories... We should go out again and again and collect new
>> experiences (and share it at the airport's pub of course;). XC
>> experience valuable for the soaring community only if you share it.
>> I don't say that instructors without xc experience can't do basic
>> training. I just think basic training is not too much, training is
>> really done if the student made the first 300k... How do you support
>> your student if you haven't done what she/he is about to try?
>
>
> The instructor doesn't have to do it all. If the club (or a commercial
> operation) has cross-country pilots flying from the same airport, these
> pilots can guide the student or newly licensed pilot into cross-country
> flying. They can do this by example, by flying with the new pilot in one
> of the two seaters, by pair flying, by holding ground schools, and so on.

That's why I wrote instructor and club members in my first post. I'm
open to get these lessons from anyone.
In a summary: it's just better if you experience as much as possible
in soaring. Instructors without xc are not bad at all, they could be
just better if they try it again. Unfortunately most of the clubs there
is a tendency to fly less and less xc.:(

/Janos

[Michel Talon]

Mark James Boyd > wrote:
> Michel Talon > wrote:
>
>>I have known many
>>instructors who are only able to disgust their student of soaring,
>>precisely because they never have experimented these sensations and only
>>invest themselves in trivial technical details.
>
> Wow! I've met instructors who want to get someone to license
> quickly, but I've never met one who "disgusted a student to soaring."
>

Well, i have met a lot, and i can say it is not personal bad experience,
since personnally i had luck in this domain. I began with an old
instructor who was very nice, but had extremely strange ideas about
piloting skills (such as flying extremely uncoordinated, etc.), i avoided
carefully a good collection of retired military pilots, and finished
with very skilled and young soaring pilots, but i have certainly
observed that a good proportion of instructors here are completely
inadequate to the job (*), and make people run away. To add to the
point, i have never tried myself to become instructor, since i
don't consider i have the talent and patience to be a good
instructor. Unfortunately a lot of guys become instructor only because
it gives them a sense of being superior, or more simply to fly gratis.


(*) since the job is "gratis" one cannot ask too much, obviously.


--

Michel TALON

[Bruce]

<SNIP>
open to get these lessons from anyone.
> In a summary: it's just better if you experience as much as possible in
> soaring. Instructors without xc are not bad at all, they could be just
> better if they try it again. Unfortunately most of the clubs there is a
> tendency to fly less and less xc.:(
>
> /Janos

Not in South Africa

If I look at the flights being recorded, >1000km is becoming passe.

For what it is worth, my experience is still pretty limited (I am a pretty
inexperienced XC pilot with a longest flight of 250km),however, I only learned
how to really thermal, and a lot about decision making when I flew through a
rain squall in the middle of nowhere and ended up very low and with wet wings
(in a Std Cirrus this is not fun). That time I managed to get back up to FL100
and crawled home. Practicing being low and far from home in a low wingloading
trainer with the airfield in glide range is no substitute for that sudden cold
rush to the heart of realising you are less than two minutes from landing in a
beautifully harrowed field, probably a 2km walk from the farm house, which is
45km from your airfield down the most awful roads. That gets your attention.

Maybe other people learn better from being told, but my experience is that
actually doing it is far more valuable. Now - If I just had someone with similar
performance who flew XC from my club, I might learn faster.

[Eric Greenwell]

Bruce wrote:

> Maybe other people learn better from being told, but my experience is
> that actually doing it is far more valuable. Now - If I just had someone
> with similar performance who flew XC from my club, I might learn faster.

Try to fly with a good XC pilot in a two-seater - even a short two hour
XC flight with a better pilot can be very helpful. Being in the same
glider, instead of separate gliders, can make the learning quicker.

Arrange a lead-and-follow with a better pilot, and offer to pay his tow
(or at least the beer after the flight!). If you get another pilot like
yourself (about the same experience and similar glider) to join you, you
can split the tow fee.

The experienced pilot can have a better glider, and might need it, if
he's trying help two pilots! If he does have a better glider, it's not
necessarily a problem: he can degrade the performance to match yours;
for example, by leaving the flaps in the thermalling position, or the
gear down.

Or deal with the situation by him following you: he can still analyze
your choices of direction, clouds, etc, and thermalling style, but
simply open the spoilers occasionally when he gets above you. This
method is actually easier for the experienced pilot, because he can keep
you in sight; the other way, the less experienced pilot tends to fall
behind (even if the gliders are the same), and lose contact.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[OscarCVox]

We are spoilt rotton at our club. 60+ instructors most of which are current
regular cross country pilots. Running our cross country courses we have an ex
World Champion and current national team member.
I hope that makes you all jealous
merry xmas
Nigel