Re: TMG around San Diego

[Mark James Boyd]

www.lasoaring.com

Don't know anything else about it, but I bet they are
getting a LOT of new (foriegn) customers with this
damn TSA thing shutting down the ASEL foriegn training.

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 03:04:20 +0100, "Ingo Wolf" >
>wrote in >::
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>are TMGs aviable for hire in southern
>>California / San Diego ?
>>I wan't to make my licence this spring
>>in california would like to have TMG
>>Rating too.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>
>The term TMG (Touring Motor Glider) is new to me. Regardless, you're
>question might meet with more response if posted in the
>rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup, so I've crossposted this follow up to
>include that group.
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 03:04:20 +0100, "Ingo Wolf" >
wrote in >::

>Hi,
>
>are TMGs aviable for hire in southern
>California / San Diego ?
>I wan't to make my licence this spring
>in california would like to have TMG
>Rating too.
>
>Regards
>

The term TMG (Touring Motor Glider) is new to me. Regardless, you're
question might meet with more response if posted in the
rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup, so I've crossposted this follow up to
include that group.

[Larry Dighera]

On 7 Dec 2004 10:43:51 -0700, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote in <41b5f9e7$1@darkstar>::

>www.lasoaring.com

That's a terrific idea! Thanks for the link.

[Stefan]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> The term TMG (Touring Motor Glider) is new to me.

In Europe, TMG is a well defined term and a TMG needs a different rating
than just a glider rating with a "mere" self launch endorsement. (It's
even more complex: You can choose between achieving the TMG rating as a
type rating for power pilots and as an additional rating for glider pilots.)

It's well possible that in the USA, a TMG is just another self launching
glider. I don't know. Anyway, I know of one commercial operator of a
Katana Extreme (aka Dimona) in Arizona: http://www.skykingsoaring.com/.
You might find others at http://www.ssa.org

Stefan

[[email protected]]

Sky Sailing (near San Diego) has a Stemme.

[[email protected]]

Sky Sailing (near San Diego) has a Stemme.

[Larry Dighera]

On 7 Dec 2004 10:55:58 -0800, wrote in
. com>::

>Sky Sailing (near San Diego) has a Stemme

In deed they do: http://www.skysailing.com/pages/lessons.html#all

Stemme $130/hr Engine + $60/hr Airframe Dual Only

[Stefan]

wrote:

> Sky Sailing (near San Diego) has a Stemme.

I may be wrong, but I think the Stemme V10 is legally not a TMG.

Stefan

[Marc Ramsey]

Stefan wrote:
> I may be wrong, but I think the Stemme V10 is legally not a TMG.

The type category "Touring Motor Glider" does not exist in the US. The
Stemme, Dimona, G109, DG-800, ASK-14, ASW-24E, etc., are all gliders
with self-launch capability. An FAA Glider rating allows you to fly any
of them as PIC. A self-launch endorsement from a CFIG is required if
(and only if) you make use of the self-launch capability.

Marc

[Stefan]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

>> I may be wrong, but I think the Stemme V10 is legally not a TMG.

> The type category "Touring Motor Glider" does not exist in the US.

I thought so. But the original poster lives in Germany, at least his
name and email address point in this direction. And as he wrote that he
would like to have the TMG rating, I think this question is of interest
to him.

Stefan

[Steve Hill]

I got the self launch endorsement because my insurance required me to for
operating the DG-400...but it sure strikes me as odd that if you have an
ASEL certificate...and a glider rating...that the combination of the two
would not suffice...add to that a high-performance and taildragger sign
off...and I never have understood what the self launch sign off was intended
to accomplish.

Maybe it's me, but it sure seems silly when you have pilots with both power
and glider ratings. I can see the self launch sign-off if you only have a
Glider certificate...


Steve.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:25:01 +0100, Stefan >
wrote in >::

>I may be wrong, but I think the Stemme V10 is legally not a TMG.

But is a remarkable piece of artistic engineering.
http://www.stemme.de/

"The S 10-VT is the easiest to handle and most good-natured open
class sailplane."

The S8 is the TMG: http://www.stemmewest.com/pages/S8_E.pdf

[Mark James Boyd]

It seems like there's really only one thing to train an ASEL pilot
trainsitioning to self launch: if the engine quits on takeoff,
then the extended engine is just a huge airbrake, so your glide
ratio goes to poop and the pitch forces are changed. Recognise this
and make your choice to turn back or
go straight accordingly, not based on regular glide.

I'm not self-launch endorsed, but other than this and the fact your
engine is probably a $10,000 one cylinder chainsaw engine that causes
double vision, I can't figure what is so different...

<flame away>

In article >,
Steve Hill > wrote:
>I got the self launch endorsement because my insurance required me to for
>operating the DG-400...but it sure strikes me as odd that if you have an
>ASEL certificate...and a glider rating...that the combination of the two
>would not suffice...add to that a high-performance and taildragger sign
>off...and I never have understood what the self launch sign off was intended
>to accomplish.
>
>Maybe it's me, but it sure seems silly when you have pilots with both power
>and glider ratings. I can see the self launch sign-off if you only have a
>Glider certificate...
>
>
>Steve.
>
>
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Eric Greenwell]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> It seems like there's really only one thing to train an ASEL pilot
> trainsitioning to self launch: if the engine quits on takeoff,
> then the extended engine is just a huge airbrake, so your glide
> ratio goes to poop

It's worse than having the engine retracted, but nothing like having the
airbrakes extended.

and the pitch forces are changed.

Actually, the pitch forces don't change, but the glider does tend to
pitch up a bit with power loss. Like a rope break, the pilot must put
the nose down to maintain airspeed.

Recognise this
> and make your choice to turn back or
> go straight accordingly, not based on regular glide.

For my glider, and I think for most "engine on a stick" gliders, an
extra 100' is _plenty_ over what the pilot would use for a turn-around
height while towing.

> I'm not self-launch endorsed, but other than this and the fact your
> engine is probably a $10,000 one cylinder chainsaw engine

Most of the self-launchers use a two cylinder engine. The Russia uses a
single cylinder and probably has the most vibration; the ASH 26 E uses a
single rotor wankel, and has the least vibration.

Even the Russia, at about 28 horsepower, would make one heck of a macho
chainsaw!

that causes
> double vision, I can't figure what is so different...

Perhaps the biggest difference is many of them will go up on their nose
if full power is applied right at the start of the roll. Even if they
don't, the reduced weight on the tail wheel can turn a cross-wind
takeoff into a thriller. It only takes once to realize you need to be a
little slower with the throttle at the start.

Taxiing can be a challenge, since your "wheel track" is 25-30 feet wide,
and you don't have differential braking to help you around the corners.

Aside from these, and if the engine keeps running, it's easier than towing.



--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bert Willing]

The Stemme is a TMG under German rules.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Stefan" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
>>> I may be wrong, but I think the Stemme V10 is legally not a TMG.
>
>> The type category "Touring Motor Glider" does not exist in the US.
>
> I thought so. But the original poster lives in Germany, at least his name
> and email address point in this direction. And as he wrote that he would
> like to have the TMG rating, I think this question is of interest to him.
>
> Stefan
>
>

[Steve Hill]

Mark James Boyd Wrote:

" I'm not self-launch endorsed, but other than this and the fact your
> engine is probably a $10,000 one cylinder chainsaw engine"

Well...I'm not sure if this is intended to be flippant or not...but I'll say
my DG uses a two cylinder, dual CDI ignition, dual carburetor Rotax...about
505 cc's. The engine is very nicely mounted on isolation dampeners and
really runs very smoothly, though it does have a slight harmonic in the
4,000rpm range you feel when you shut it down...I think the cost is easily
considered as follows: this years 170 hours of soaring used 4.2 engine hours
( 21 gallons of super unleaded) If I'd average 3 three hours per flight that
would be about 57 tows...say $30 a tow to be safe...around $1700 for the
year...I'll leave out the 8 or 9 retrieves, when I either went straight out
somewhere and landed, or simply got nailed and had to land
somewhere...either way, retrieve costs could easily add up to a substantial
cost, but I just started up and headed home...in my 700 hours of flying the
DG-400 I have only had one very minor engine complication, self remedied,
but trying to be unbiased. I would assert that the dollar per flight hour
vs. freedom from tow lines and the benefit of going when and where I want is
worth the minor investment and I believe it actually pays for itself over a
5 year period.

My Stihl on the other hand..also has CDI igition AND mixes the fuel/oil for
me...I sure wish the DG did that.


Steve

[Gig Giacona]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:25:01 +0100, Stefan >
> wrote in >::
>
>>I may be wrong, but I think the Stemme V10 is legally not a TMG.
>
> But is a remarkable piece of artistic engineering.
> http://www.stemme.de/
>
> "The S 10-VT is the easiest to handle and most good-natured open
> class sailplane."
>
> The S8 is the TMG: http://www.stemmewest.com/pages/S8_E.pdf

I know nothing about Gliders but I went and looked at the PDF document
above. CS prop, retractable gear, 170 knots. That is impressive.

My question. Can it be flown by a PP-SEL or do you have to have a glider
rating?

[Mark James Boyd]

Steve (and others),

I put a tag for "flame suit on" and a winkey face under this comment,
but it didn't make it to the post.

C'mon, you know I love you engine lovers. I have an engine
myself (well, a continental A-75). Sorry if I offended,
Can I be in the club again?

:)

In article >,
Steve Hill > wrote:
>Mark James Boyd Wrote:
>
>" I'm not self-launch endorsed, but other than this and the fact your
>> engine is probably a $10,000 one cylinder chainsaw engine"
>
>Well...I'm not sure if this is intended to be flippant or not...but I'll say
>my DG uses a two cylinder, dual CDI ignition, dual carburetor Rotax...about
>505 cc's. The engine is very nicely mounted on isolation dampeners and
>really runs very smoothly, though it does have a slight harmonic in the
>4,000rpm range you feel when you shut it down...I think the cost is easily
>considered as follows: this years 170 hours of soaring used 4.2 engine hours
>( 21 gallons of super unleaded) If I'd average 3 three hours per flight that
>would be about 57 tows...say $30 a tow to be safe...around $1700 for the
>year...I'll leave out the 8 or 9 retrieves, when I either went straight out
>somewhere and landed, or simply got nailed and had to land
>somewhere...either way, retrieve costs could easily add up to a substantial
>cost, but I just started up and headed home...in my 700 hours of flying the
>DG-400 I have only had one very minor engine complication, self remedied,
>but trying to be unbiased. I would assert that the dollar per flight hour
>vs. freedom from tow lines and the benefit of going when and where I want is
>worth the minor investment and I believe it actually pays for itself over a
>5 year period.
>
>My Stihl on the other hand..also has CDI igition AND mixes the fuel/oil for
>me...I sure wish the DG did that.
>
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Steve Hill]

Offended...?? Me..?? man...I got WAY thicker skin than that....you'd have to
be talking about my mama...to offend me...I know...I know...when she sits
around the house....she REALLY sits around the house....


Nah...I just thought I'd set the record straight about my chainsaw
engine...oops...self launcher...


Ciao for now.


Steve.

[Eric Greenwell]

Gig Giacona wrote:

>>
>> "The S 10-VT is the easiest to handle and most good-natured open
>> class sailplane."
>>
>>The S8 is the TMG: http://www.stemmewest.com/pages/S8_E.pdf
>
>
> I know nothing about Gliders but I went and looked at the PDF document
> above. CS prop, retractable gear, 170 knots. That is impressive.
>
> My question. Can it be flown by a PP-SEL or do you have to have a glider
> rating?

In the USA, you need a glider rating with a self-launch enddorsement.
Other countries treat it quite differently.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA