Any date-related GPS problems seen today?

[kinsell]

The epoc-olypse has arrived.

[Dan Marotta]

Not date related, but I live within the GPS interference testing main
location.Â* It's a real pain in the ass!

I understand that GPS is a military system and it's really irksome that
the FAA and maybe the rest of the ICAO countries rely on it for
navigation and ADS-B.

Oh, my (several) GPS devices were not affected by the epoc.

On 4/6/2019 8:27 PM, kinsell wrote:
> The epoc-olypse has arrived.

--
Dan, 5J

[Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]]

It (probably) won't affect the operation of a Flight Recorder except that
it #may# record the wrong date in the IGC file, and OLC is bound to notice
that.

The recorded date can be found in the second line of any .IGC file.

At 15:43 07 April 2019, Dan Marotta wrote:
>Not date related, but I live within the GPS interference testing main
>location.Â* It's a real pain in the ass!
>
>I understand that GPS is a military system and it's really irksome that
>the FAA and maybe the rest of the ICAO countries rely on it for
>navigation and ADS-B.
>
>Oh, my (several) GPS devices were not affected by the epoc.
>
>On 4/6/2019 8:27 PM, kinsell wrote:
>> The epoc-olypse has arrived.
>
>--
>Dan, 5J
>

[kinsell]

Sounds like you need a receiver with GLONASS capability as a
get-you-home backup.



On 4/7/19 9:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Not date related, but I live within the GPS interference testing main
> location.Â* It's a real pain in the ass!
>
> I understand that GPS is a military system and it's really irksome that
> the FAA and maybe the rest of the ICAO countries rely on it for
> navigation and ADS-B.
>
> Oh, my (several) GPS devices were not affected by the epoc.
>
> On 4/6/2019 8:27 PM, kinsell wrote:
>> The epoc-olypse has arrived.
>

[Dan Marotta]

Bet'cha the Russkys are doing interference testing, too...

On 4/7/2019 5:05 PM, kinsell wrote:
> Sounds like you need a receiver with GLONASS capability as a
> get-you-home backup.
>
>
>
> On 4/7/19 9:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Not date related, but I live within the GPS interference testing main
>> location.Â* It's a real pain in the ass!
>>
>> I understand that GPS is a military system and it's really irksome
>> that the FAA and maybe the rest of the ICAO countries rely on it for
>> navigation and ADS-B.
>>
>> Oh, my (several) GPS devices were not affected by the epoc.
>>
>> On 4/6/2019 8:27 PM, kinsell wrote:
>>> The epoc-olypse has arrived.
>>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[2KA]

I have a pretty good collection of old GPS junk, and so far everything has survived:
- My old Volkslogger still works
- I have an ancient Garmin GPS V that came up no problem
- A bit more modern stuff like the Garmin GPS 296 and 396 had no issues
- PowerFlarm had no problem

I haven't yet been able to test the old mouse-style Garmin GPS 20. I think that one might be the most vulnerable, because of its . I think it also lacks a backup battery to store the date.

Lynn

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I don't think the problem has to do with a particular GPS powering-up and locking-onto satellites. I think the issue has to do with the date logged in a flight log file. Both the filename date and the date in the file would be off if the unit has an issue. So a test would need to include a test drive or flight.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
____________________________

On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 10:19:26 PM UTC-5, 2KA wrote:
> I have a pretty good collection of old GPS junk, and so far everything has survived:
> - My old Volkslogger still works
> - I have an ancient Garmin GPS V that came up no problem
> - A bit more modern stuff like the Garmin GPS 296 and 396 had no issues
> - PowerFlarm had no problem
>
> I haven't yet been able to test the old mouse-style Garmin GPS 20. I think that one might be the most vulnerable, because of its . I think it also lacks a backup battery to store the date.
>
> Lynn

[2KA]

Yes, agreed. I mean on all the GPS's I tested, I have check that the date is correct, either by creating a test log or checking the date on a display (Garmin units).

L.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 07 Apr 2019 19:18:24 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Bet'cha the Russkys are doing interference testing, too...
>
> On 4/7/2019 5:05 PM, kinsell wrote:
>> Sounds like you need a receiver with GLONASS capability as a
>> get-you-home backup.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/7/19 9:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Not date related, but I live within the GPS interference testing main
>>> location.Â* It's a real pain in the ass!
>>>
>>> I understand that GPS is a military system and it's really irksome
>>> that the FAA and maybe the rest of the ICAO countries rely on it for
>>> navigation and ADS-B.
>>>
>>> Oh, my (several) GPS devices were not affected by the epoc.
>>>
>>> On 4/6/2019 8:27 PM, kinsell wrote:
>>>> The epoc-olypse has arrived.
>>>
>>>
My old Garmin GPS2+ still knows where it is.

However, this unit has never been left without good batteries in it. This
model has a soldered-in non-rechargeable coin cell that's intended to
keep its internal memory alive while you change batteries etc. and this
fails within a year or two if you leave the unit with no or dead
batteries. Don't ask me how I know this....

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

I tried my ancient Garmin eMap a couple of weeks ago - before the epoch rollover. I haven't used it in years and it say with no batteries. It figured out where it was quickly enough. But the date it showed was in 1999. Note this was even before this week's rollover - must be a very old GPS! I used to carry this one when flying as a backup navigation device, since it has a built-in database of towns roads etc at the "right" level of detail. But nowadays Tophat on my smartphone is a much better backup.

My Garmin 76s is not quite as old. I had it stored with no batteries for years. Turned it on a couple of weeks ago and it took an hour to figure out where it was. But then it showed the right date. Stored it with batteries until trying it again yesterday, it got a fix in a few seconds and the date was still correct.

Ah, wasn't saving a bit or two in the data packet worth all this trouble? :-)

[kinsell]

I saw several reports of very old Garmin hand-held devices getting their
dates corrupted at this latest epoch, and the owners were able to
correct the problem with a firmware update.

My GPS 12 still has its correct date, but I always leave good AA
batteries installed. I also charge my Cambridge 302 several times over
the winter, for the same reason.


On 4/8/19 3:33 PM, wrote:
> I tried my ancient Garmin eMap a couple of weeks ago - before the epoch rollover. I haven't used it in years and it say with no batteries. It figured out where it was quickly enough. But the date it showed was in 1999. Note this was even before this week's rollover - must be a very old GPS! I used to carry this one when flying as a backup navigation device, since it has a built-in database of towns roads etc at the "right" level of detail. But nowadays Tophat on my smartphone is a much better backup.
>
> My Garmin 76s is not quite as old. I had it stored with no batteries for years. Turned it on a couple of weeks ago and it took an hour to figure out where it was. But then it showed the right date. Stored it with batteries until trying it again yesterday, it got a fix in a few seconds and the date was still correct.
>
> Ah, wasn't saving a bit or two in the data packet worth all this trouble? :-)
>

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 14:33:53 -0700, moshe.braner wrote:

> Ah, wasn't saving a bit or two in the data packet worth all this
> trouble? :-)
>
Newer GPS signal formats have lengthened the epoch to 8192 weeks, so the
next rollover for receivers using CNAV messages should be in 157 years
time, though older receivers should work as long as the Legacy messages
continue to be transmitted using 1024 week epochs and the receiver
remembers (or can be told) the epoch number).

I found this stuff here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals

Its quite an interesting read.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]]

At 23:48 08 April 2019, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 14:33:53 -0700, moshe.braner wrote:
>
>> Ah, wasn't saving a bit or two in the data packet worth all this
>> trouble? :-)
>>
>Newer GPS signal formats have lengthened the epoch to 8192 weeks, so the
>next rollover for receivers using CNAV messages should be in 157 years
>time, though older receivers should work as long as the Legacy messages
>continue to be transmitted using 1024 week epochs and the receiver
>remembers (or can be told) the epoch number).
>
>I found this stuff here:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals
>
>Its quite an interesting read.
>
>
Most flight recorders receive transmissions on the L1 frequency which does
not include the epoch. L2 and L5 frequencies do contain epoch information.

L1 GPS Engines (a bought-in compenent) have a Real-Time clock which is
maintained by a rechargable battery which is part of the GPS Engine (not to
be confused with any other battery in the recorder).

IF this battery becomes discharged the epoch number is lost.

[Darryl Ramm]

Oh Honeybad... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/04/gps-rollover-apparently-cause-of-multiple-flight-delays-groundings

[kinsell]

https://eos.org/articles/noaa-monitoring-stations-are-off-line-from-a-gps-y2k-moment




On 4/9/19 9:51 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Oh Honeybad... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/04/gps-rollover-apparently-cause-of-multiple-flight-delays-groundings
>

[Larry Suter]

Just downloaded a couple of flights I did yesterday that were recorded on our club's old Cambridge box. Yesterday's flights were flown on 4/14/19, eight days after the recent rollover. The date in the files is 8/29/99, eight days after the 1999 rollover.

The time of day looks right.

Larry

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

I had 4 Model 20s updated to fix the dead internal GPS battery a couple of months ago. All handled this latest roll-over properly. Same result for the Model 20s I have that have not yet had the internal GPS battery fail and have functioned and had the correct date since initial purchase.

Steve Leonard
Keeper of the Cambridge Model 20s

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:33:22 PM UTC-4, Steve Leonard wrote:
> I had 4 Model 20s updated to fix the dead internal GPS battery a couple of months ago. All handled this latest roll-over properly. Same result for the Model 20s I have that have not yet had the internal GPS battery fail and have functioned and had the correct date since initial purchase.
>
> Steve Leonard
> Keeper of the Cambridge Model 20s

I have had 2 older Garmin navigators stumble on start up.
Non aviation
UH

[Karl Kunz[_2_]]

My Cambridge 302 is showing some random date in 2099. Is there any fix for this?

[kinsell]

On 4/26/19 9:45 AM, Karl Kunz wrote:
> My Cambridge 302 is showing some random date in 2099. Is there any fix for this?
>

Gary Kammerer works as an independent contractor for Clear Nav, he could
probably hellp you. It might be cheaper to just replace the logger
function with something more modern, however.

[Karl Kunz[_2_]]

Yes, Gary actually worked on my 302 before and one of the things he did was replace the GPS.