View Full Version : Buying a Glider
ripacheco1967
May 3rd 19, 07:25 PM
Stupid question of the day:
Is https://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds the main place to look for gliders for sale?
I am new to gliders.
--robert
kinsell
May 3rd 19, 08:24 PM
On 5/3/19 12:25 PM, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> Stupid question of the day:
>
> Is https://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds the main place to look for gliders for sale?
>
> I am new to gliders.
>
> --robert
>
In the U.S., yes that's many used ones are listed. Soaring Magazine
from the SSA also has classifieds. W&W is also the HpH dealer.
I can get you a hot deal on a Taurus.
If you can deal with the problems of importing from Europe, you might take a look at segelfluge.de in their classified section.
If you can deal with importing from Europe, take a look at segelflug.de in their classified section.
Try segelflug.de classified section.
Frank Whiteley
May 4th 19, 03:25 AM
On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 12:25:37 PM UTC-6, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> Stupid question of the day:
>
> Is https://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds the main place to look for gliders for sale?
>
> I am new to gliders.
>
> --robert
Robert,
W&W is fine. Depending on what you're looking for you might also check barnstormers.com and browse the ads under the Glider& Sailplane. The odd item shows up there and a club member bought a 1-26E that was only listed there..
glidersource.com also lists gliders and other items.
Overseas you might also check gliderpilot.net classified adverts and
segelflug.de (switch to English) and filter the classifieds by category.
You mentioned three clubs. Each probably deserves a visit to check out their fleets and private gliders. When it comes to finally making a buying decision, fit and comfort is a consideration, especially as we age. Some are wider at the hip, others at the shoulders, several are taller with long legs, others long torsos. All are factors when finally deciding. You may get an opportunity to slip on a parachute and try on a glass slipper. You should also watch and learn about rigging and derigging.
The soaring season's a bit different around there, but if you want to see some racing action, there are 25 pilots registered for the 15m Nationals at Bermuda High Soaring in Lancaster, SC. http://bermudahighsoaring.com/15-m-national-championships.html
The contest runs from 5/6-5/15. There's also a contest at Cordele, GA, from 6/1-6/8, with at least 48 pilots flying three classes of glider flying Region 5 South. www.flycordele.com
Contests are an opportunity was watch, learn, and listen. Pilots are engaged, so not as relaxed or open as on a club day.
BTW, welcome to the SSA.
Frank Whiteley
970-330-2050 7am-10pm MDT.
ripacheco1967
May 4th 19, 05:10 PM
Why are some of the gliders listed there say ASW27 marked as “experimental” I thought mainstream factory gliders like the ASW27 were all certified? I am missing something?
Not true, mine is standard ser no 27031 early 27.
John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
May 5th 19, 02:31 PM
It seems, and I am certainly not an expert, that a particular glider being experimental or standard has to do more with the first owner's "preference" when first imported. Or maybe how the local FSDO handles things (or how much they know/care about gliders).
I once owned a DG-101G which was standard. A sister ship on my gliderport a few serial numbers away was experimental. I looked up all the DG-100/101's on the FAA web site and there was zero rhyme or reason on whether they were standard or experimental.
Within the glider community, unlike GA it would seem, there appears to be no prejudice for or against standard versus experimental. Very, very, very few gliders were hand-build by individuals which to many in the non-glider aviation realm is the definition of "experimental".
I will leave it to others to explain their feelings on the pros/cons of standard versus experimental.
John OHM Ω
There a many misunderstandings about expimentals. I'm not the expert either, but I am often amazed by the owners that think they can legally experiment with changes to an experimental glider.
An experimental glider has to be maintained per its operating limitations instructions, which usually says per manufacturers instructions.
Experimental homebuilt is a different animal than experimental aircraft that are manufactured.
I have a PIK 20 with an experimental certificated, and I do an annual for the owner of a standard certificated PIK 20.
As mentioned before, I depends on how it was certified when imported.
"Within the glider community, unlike GA it would seem, there appears to be no prejudice for or against standard versus experimental"
One prejudice could be that an experimental glider should not be used by commercial operators or club training/casual use.
ripacheco1967
May 6th 19, 03:14 PM
You are absolutely right about GA has a "prejudice" when Experimental is seen on an aircraft. Learning now the Glider community sees things. lots to learn.
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 8:31:22 AM UTC-5, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> It seems, and I am certainly not an expert, that a particular glider being experimental or standard has to do more with the first owner's "preference" when first imported. Or maybe how the local FSDO handles things (or how much they know/care about gliders).
>
> I once owned a DG-101G which was standard. A sister ship on my gliderport a few serial numbers away was experimental. I looked up all the DG-100/101's on the FAA web site and there was zero rhyme or reason on whether they were standard or experimental.
>
> Within the glider community, unlike GA it would seem, there appears to be no prejudice for or against standard versus experimental. Very, very, very few gliders were hand-build by individuals which to many in the non-glider aviation realm is the definition of "experimental".
>
> I will leave it to others to explain their feelings on the pros/cons of standard versus experimental.
>
> John OHM Ω
ripacheco1967
May 6th 19, 03:17 PM
BTW a ASW27B is at the top of my list of gliders I want to own. ;)
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 8:31:22 AM UTC-5, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> It seems, and I am certainly not an expert, that a particular glider being experimental or standard has to do more with the first owner's "preference" when first imported. Or maybe how the local FSDO handles things (or how much they know/care about gliders).
>
> I once owned a DG-101G which was standard. A sister ship on my gliderport a few serial numbers away was experimental. I looked up all the DG-100/101's on the FAA web site and there was zero rhyme or reason on whether they were standard or experimental.
>
> Within the glider community, unlike GA it would seem, there appears to be no prejudice for or against standard versus experimental. Very, very, very few gliders were hand-build by individuals which to many in the non-glider aviation realm is the definition of "experimental".
>
> I will leave it to others to explain their feelings on the pros/cons of standard versus experimental.
>
> John OHM Ω
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 10:19:22 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> There a many misunderstandings about expimentals. I'm not the expert either, but I am often amazed by the owners that think they can legally experiment with changes to an experimental glider.
>
> An experimental glider has to be maintained per its operating limitations instructions, which usually says per manufacturers instructions.
>
> Experimental homebuilt is a different animal than experimental aircraft that are manufactured.
>
> I have a PIK 20 with an experimental certificated, and I do an annual for the owner of a standard certificated PIK 20.
> As mentioned before, I depends on how it was certified when imported.
If one is intending to do modifications it is much easier to do in the experimental category. Such changes likely require moving the ship back to Phase 1 flight test until test requirements are flown off, then returning to phase 2 flight ops.
I have moved ships to experimental from standard for this purpose and then left in experimental.
UH
On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 8:17:39 AM UTC-6, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> BTW a ASW27B is at the top of my list of gliders I want to own. ;)
>
The last time I checked about half of the 27's are licensed Standard and it just depends on who imported the glider and how much time and energy they wanted to spend with the FAA or a DAR. Keep in mind most experimental gliders are in the Exhibition and Racing category and not the amateur built category. There is a difference! You can switch from standard to experimental in about one afternoon and 600 bucks to a DAR. In Practical terms most of us maintain out gliders to high standards and the big difference sometimes boils down to your life insurance. Many policies will forbid flying an experimental aircraft.
The 27 is a great and affordable choice!
Good luck
ripacheco1967
May 6th 19, 05:25 PM
Insurance is an issue then.
Reading another thread, a poster indicated his glider was denied insurance despite being "Standard" .. this implies is easier for insurance companies to deny hull insurance on "Experimental" gliders... just as in GA... good to know.
On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 10:37:04 AM UTC-5, K m wrote:
> On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 8:17:39 AM UTC-6, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> > BTW a ASW27B is at the top of my list of gliders I want to own. ;)
> >
> The last time I checked about half of the 27's are licensed Standard and it just depends on who imported the glider and how much time and energy they wanted to spend with the FAA or a DAR. Keep in mind most experimental gliders are in the Exhibition and Racing category and not the amateur built category. There is a difference! You can switch from standard to experimental in about one afternoon and 600 bucks to a DAR. In Practical terms most of us maintain out gliders to high standards and the big difference sometimes boils down to your life insurance. Many policies will forbid flying an experimental aircraft.
>
> The 27 is a great and affordable choice!
>
> Good luck
I've never had them ask if it was standard or experimental.
ripacheco1967
May 6th 19, 09:56 PM
On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 1:38:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I've never had them ask if it was standard or experimental.
That is good to know. And hopefully people from insurance companies are smart enough to get a history of the plane with the N-number.... to verify before purchase.
Bob Kuykendall
May 6th 19, 11:27 PM
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 7:19:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> ...I am often amazed by the owners that think they can legally experiment with changes to an experimental glider...
To expand slightly on this:
It depends entirely on what sort of "experimental" we're talking about, and the operating limitations attached to the airworthiness certificate for the specific glider in question.
First off are experimental amateur-built sailplanes such as the ones I promote, make kits for, and train people to fabricate and assemble. For these, experimentation is definitely baked into the boilerplate text of the operating limitations issued by FAA and designated inspectors. Anybody can legally work on them, and major repairs, modifications, and alterations are relatively straightforward.
As for experimental, exhibition and experimental, racing, the operating limitations are much less uniform than for amateur-built, and much more subject to the discretion of the inspector and context of the issuance. And they are definitely negotiable. For some they say that the aircraft must be maintained per the manufacturer's instructions. But for some others this proviso is omitted, or has actually been removed in an amended re-issuance of the operating limitations.
Thanks, Bob K.
Bob Kuykendall
May 6th 19, 11:32 PM
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 7:23:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> One prejudice could be that an experimental glider should not be used by commercial operators...
That's not prejudice, that's the law spelled out in 14CFR. Aircraft without standard airworthiness certificates can be used for commercial operations only under certain narrowly-defined circumstances.
>...or club training/casual use.
That's a bit murkier. Depending on the structure of the club, it may be possible to make experimental aircraft available for club member use. But it's usually not worth the trouble.
--Bob K.
"That's not prejudice,"
Yep, poor choice of word. I was tired that night.
Commercial operators can offer a single-seat ship for rent when it has a Special - experimental exhibition & racing A/W cert...
On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 7:21:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Commercial operators can offer a single-seat ship for rent when it has a Special - experimental exhibition & racing A/W cert...
I just looked at the limitations on one of my ships. It expressly refers to 91.319 with respect to purposes of operation.
91.319(e) specifically does not allow use for compensation or hire.
FWIW
UH
Charles Longley
May 7th 19, 02:08 AM
It’s pretty common to have experimental gliders in a club. They’re not put out for compensation or hire but owned by the club members with shared expenses.
Common, doesn't make it right.
Are they submitting program letters?
Charles Longley
May 7th 19, 03:22 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but not all experimental gliders need program letters. Guess I’ll find out I am going to be buying my first experimental glider this weekend.
Basic common sense tells me that it would be OK for a club to own a single seat experimental glider and fly it. They’re not letting it out to the public. What would the difference be between a club and a consortium of say 4 pilots owning and flying one?
Charles Longley
May 7th 19, 03:30 AM
So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? I didn’t see any mention of a program letter in the glider I am buying.
I don’t know the answer if any particular club is submitting a program letter. Whenever I do a condition inspection and notice one in the files I remind the owner to submit their yearly letter.
JS[_5_]
May 7th 19, 04:03 AM
On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 7:30:09 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? I didn’t see any mention of a program letter in the glider I am buying.
That depands on how the original operating limitations and program letter were written.
Some have just a few paragraphs and just one program letter. DO NOT let the registration expire on that one.
Some (mostly newer) have several pages of limitations and the requirement of an annual program letter.
If an FSDO is specified in the original and that FSDO is no longer operational, or if the aircraft is moved away from that FSDO's jurisdiction you may have to redo the paperwork. Again, depends on the wording.
But in my experience, it's more difficult to fix the bad title on a glider trailer than comply with the details of an EXP registration.
Jim
On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 10:30:09 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? I didn’t see any mention of a program letter in the glider I am buying.
>
> I don’t know the answer if any particular club is submitting a program letter. Whenever I do a condition inspection and notice one in the files I remind the owner to submit their yearly letter.
I don't recall exactly when the requirement for program letters was added to the operations limitations for Experimental exhibition and air racing category gliders, but it was more than 15 years ago.
When moving to a new operating area, sending a program letter to notify the cognizant FSDO of the change of base will normally suffice.
Some limitations may require issuance of new operating limitations. This is fairly rare has gone away in more recent times with standardization.
Older ships may have no such requirement. Don't lose those operating limitations because you will then have to get new ones to later standards.
Unless otherwise stated in the docs, duration is unlimited.
Change in N number triggers all new stuff when new airworthiness certificate is issued.
The key thing is to review the operating limitations that are part of the airworthiness certificate and comply.
It isn't all that hard but I still find ships that don't have correct paperwork.
UH
" So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? "
No, I didn't say that. I was just pointing out one of the obstacles of useing an experimental glider in a club environment.
----------
I just pulled up a copy of a current "old style" ops limitations.
Paragraph 1 says "no person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose for which the special purpose airworthiness certificate was issued and shall be operated in compliance with applicable FAA general operating and flight rules. "
What's the special purpose airworthiness certificate issued for,
Exhibition and Racing.
Not meandering,training,time building or sight seeing.
Exhibition and racing uses are further defined by the FAA. Club use does not fit.
I guess there's no problem with a club owning one. It's the pilot that is at risk, and in a club environment most pilots have no idea. They probably never even read the ops limitations.
Perhaps we should start a new thread if we are going to continue this communication, rather than drift from the OP,original questions.
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 10:00:51 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> " So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? "
>
> No, I didn't say that. I was just pointing out one of the obstacles of useing an experimental glider in a club environment.
>
> ----------
>
> I just pulled up a copy of a current "old style" ops limitations.
>
> Paragraph 1 says "no person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose for which the special purpose airworthiness certificate was issued and shall be operated in compliance with applicable FAA general operating and flight rules. "
>
> What's the special purpose airworthiness certificate issued for,
> Exhibition and Racing.
>
> Not meandering,training,time building or sight seeing.
>
> Exhibition and racing uses are further defined by the FAA. Club use does not fit.
>
>
> I guess there's no problem with a club owning one. It's the pilot that is at risk, and in a club environment most pilots have no idea. They probably never even read the ops limitations.
>
> Perhaps we should start a new thread if we are going to continue this communication, rather than drift from the OP,original questions.
If you don't ask for clarification from the FAA it will not be a problem. Club members flying around in circles are exhibiting their skills and training for racing, whether they know it or not.
Pretty typical reply, but it's not correct.
Look up the description of Exhibition in the context of special/experiment- racing AW certs with the FAA.
Ignorance is not a good excuse.
It's not a problem, until it's a problem. It's kind of like driving over the speed limit.
Larry Ruggiero
May 8th 19, 02:36 AM
Not to pick nits but most DARs will include in a ship's operating limitations boilerplate that-- with exception of the builder (who receives a repairman's certificate limited to repairs, inspections and mods that specific aircraft only)-- annual condition inspections, repairs or modifications are to be performed by someone holding at least an A&P certificate (standard certificated aircraft require an A&P with Inspection Authorization for annuals and major repairs or mods). The FAA does allow pilot/owners to do some common maintenance items, like lubrication, brake servicing, or tire changes. In case someone else hasn't already pointed it out, the FAR's place responsibility for aircraft airworthiness on the owner, not the maintainer, so keep up with researching service bulletins and airworthiness directives-- your A&P will thank you come annual time.
Larry Ruggiero, pilot/A&P
Charles Longley
May 8th 19, 03:30 AM
You’re a pretty opinionated Sky God aren’t you? Reality is it doesn’t matter what you think.
Bob Kuykendall
May 8th 19, 05:04 AM
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 6:37:00 PM UTC-7, Larry Ruggiero wrote:
> Not to pick nits but most DARs will include in a ship's operating limitations boilerplate that-- with exception of the builder (who receives a repairman's certificate limited to repairs, inspections and mods that specific aircraft only)-- annual condition inspections, repairs or modifications are to be performed by someone holding at least an A&P certificate (standard certificated aircraft require an A&P with Inspection Authorization for annuals and major repairs or mods)...
For amateur-built experimental aircraft, the annual condition inspection must indeed be signed off by the holder of the Repairman Certificate or by an A&P mechanic. But the official FAA guidance for inspectors and DARs is to issue operating limitations with no restrictions on who can do maintenance, modifications, or repairs. Anybody can work on an amateur-built experimental.
The only unique privilege conferred by the Repairman Certificate is the dubious privilege of signing off on the condition inspection. And I say dubious because I think it is better to bring in an impartial (or at least less partial) set of eyes to inspect work in which you have an emotional investment that might cloud your judgement.
--Bob K, EAA Technical Counselor
You’re a pretty opinionated Sky God aren’t you? Reality is it doesn’t matter what you think.
I dont intend to come off that way.
I just try to help spur some thought, possibly reduce some mistakes and identify risk.
Your right, my opinion doesn't matter to you and probably to most, and I'm not always right. Clubs wont make a change because of what I write. But maybe there's a few individuals that will read this thread, that had no idea that as PIC in the club experimental glider, they were supposed to be flying IAW the limitations set in place by the special aiworthness certificate. Maybe some students would like to know or decide that this isn't the ship I should fly. Are the instructors teaching this responsibility to them prior to turning them loose. Even after acquiring their private, they still often dont hear what the experimental - exhibition/racing really means.
FAA order 8130 section 10 gives guidance on what exhibition and racing categories are about. The limitations page is part of the airworthiness certificate and restricts the planes use to those who are flying within the rules set up for that aircraft.
The PIC is the one responsible. If that person is unaware of the situation he has no way to manage his own risk assessment.
When the pot boils dry, the only opinion that would really matter would be the judge or jury, if there were an issue that drives it that far.
In the context of this thread, I just wanted to give the possible buyer the heads up about this aspect of an experimental ship and what it possibly means to him for future use.
All is well.
Joe
On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 7:29:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> You’re a pretty opinionated Sky God aren’t you? Reality is it doesn’t matter what you think.
>
> I dont intend to come off that way.
> I just try to help spur some thought, possibly reduce some mistakes and identify risk.
>
> Your right, my opinion doesn't matter to you and probably to most, and I'm not always right. Clubs wont make a change because of what I write. But maybe there's a few individuals that will read this thread, that had no idea that as PIC in the club experimental glider, they were supposed to be flying IAW the limitations set in place by the special aiworthness certificate. Maybe some students would like to know or decide that this isn't the ship I should fly. Are the instructors teaching this responsibility to them prior to turning them loose. Even after acquiring their private, they still often dont hear what the experimental - exhibition/racing really means.
>
> FAA order 8130 section 10 gives guidance on what exhibition and racing categories are about. The limitations page is part of the airworthiness certificate and restricts the planes use to those who are flying within the rules set up for that aircraft.
>
> The PIC is the one responsible. If that person is unaware of the situation he has no way to manage his own risk assessment.
>
> When the pot boils dry, the only opinion that would really matter would be the judge or jury, if there were an issue that drives it that far.
>
> In the context of this thread, I just wanted to give the possible buyer the heads up about this aspect of an experimental ship and what it possibly means to him for future use.
>
> All is well.
>
> Joe
Std Ops limitations provide for proficiency flying. Program letters commonly include proficiency flights, SSA badge flying, and contests.
This would not preclude club members from flying these ships.
The practical constraints are a 300 mile radius from the specified home base and a requirement to list where the glider will be operated from when not at the home base.
UH
Frank Whiteley
May 8th 19, 06:09 PM
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 8:00:51 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> " So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? "
>
> No, I didn't say that. I was just pointing out one of the obstacles of useing an experimental glider in a club environment.
>
> ----------
>
> I just pulled up a copy of a current "old style" ops limitations.
>
> Paragraph 1 says "no person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose for which the special purpose airworthiness certificate was issued and shall be operated in compliance with applicable FAA general operating and flight rules. "
>
> What's the special purpose airworthiness certificate issued for,
> Exhibition and Racing.
>
> Not meandering,training,time building or sight seeing.
>
> Exhibition and racing uses are further defined by the FAA. Club use does not fit.
>
>
> I guess there's no problem with a club owning one. It's the pilot that is at risk, and in a club environment most pilots have no idea. They probably never even read the ops limitations.
>
> Perhaps we should start a new thread if we are going to continue this communication, rather than drift from the OP,original questions.
Should say something about proficiency flights.
Frank Whiteley
Frank Whiteley
May 8th 19, 06:20 PM
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 6:45:24 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 10:30:09 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > So you’re saying that all experimental gliders need program letters? I didn’t see any mention of a program letter in the glider I am buying.
> >
> > I don’t know the answer if any particular club is submitting a program letter. Whenever I do a condition inspection and notice one in the files I remind the owner to submit their yearly letter.
>
> I don't recall exactly when the requirement for program letters was added to the operations limitations for Experimental exhibition and air racing category gliders, but it was more than 15 years ago.
> When moving to a new operating area, sending a program letter to notify the cognizant FSDO of the change of base will normally suffice.
> Some limitations may require issuance of new operating limitations. This is fairly rare has gone away in more recent times with standardization.
> Older ships may have no such requirement. Don't lose those operating limitations because you will then have to get new ones to later standards.
> Unless otherwise stated in the docs, duration is unlimited.
> Change in N number triggers all new stuff when new airworthiness certificate is issued.
> The key thing is to review the operating limitations that are part of the airworthiness certificate and comply.
> It isn't all that hard but I still find ships that don't have correct paperwork.
> UH
Pre-moratorium imports generally had permanent operating limitations and no annual program letter. Post-moratorium imports had operating limitations that required re-issue when base of operations and FSDO changed and annual program letters. There was some effort to get permanent operating limitations re-authorized through efforts of the Type Club Coalition, but I don't think that got traction. FAA modified FAA Order 8130.2 quite a bit between versions D and J and pre and post moratorium are no longer included.
Frank Whiteley
Larry Ruggiero
May 9th 19, 05:19 PM
Thanks Bob. I’ve assumed many DARs try limiting liability by assigning maintenance and inspections to A&Ps (if not the builder). Experimental-cert’d aircraft (or standard for that matter) can suffer at the hands of untrained/unknowledgeable owners.
Larry Ruggiero
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