Weird Experimental Certificate wording - Normal?

[Noel Luneau]

I have an ASW-17 and the aircraft is registered under
an experimental certificate and has special operating
limitations.
They read, in part, 'All flights shall be conducted
within the geographic area described as follows: Within
300 mile radius of a sanctioned glider meet or contest.
Profficiency flights may be conducted in the vicinity
of fly-ins or airshows.'

Is this common for Experimental Certificates for our
sailplanes?

Thanks,

Noel

[Jim Culp]

Gentlemen & Ladies who fly gliders,
in USA:

You think you got a bad Operating Limitations limit?


Think again.

I bought a 1983 Schleicher ASW-20C, a year ago. Nice
glider!

There was no Ops Limits in file.

I wrote the Charlotte FSDO where glider was handled
for 'Special Airworthiness Certificate - Exhibition'

[Jim Culp]

Gentlemen & Ladies who fly gliders,
in USA:

You think you got a bad Operating Limitations limit?


Think again.

I bought a 1983 Schleicher ASW-20C, a year ago. Nice
glider!

There was no Ops Limits in file.

I wrote the Charlotte FSDO where glider was handled
for 'Special Airworthiness Certificate - Exhibition'

[Jim Culp]

correction: FSDO of my asw-20c glider, N929M,
Special Airworthiness Certificate - Experimental, Exhibition
Purposes,
was
Columbia, South Carolina; Not Charlotte.

[Jim Phoenix]

Jim,

You are entitled (that's what the Order says - entitled) to Operations
Limitations as shownn in the FAA Order 8130.2F. If you go to the FSDO with a
copy of the pertinent section of that Order (posted earlier) that's what
you'll get. Actually, you'll get the entire Ops Limitaitons, but that
section of the boilerplate dealing with gliders is the important part. They
like it if you bring the current revision of th eorder, so don't show up
with a section from the 8130.2D or .2E.

You guys that want to get rid of the program letter please note that you can
change the rule. You just need to get a lobbyist to insert appropriate
legislation in the appropriations bill next year and voila, it's done. Good
luck. Personally, I'd like to see a lobbyist spend your resources to change
some other rules.

I don't have to send in a program letter for my Experimental - Exhibition
and Racing glider because its certificate is pre-1993. For more details, you
can read it in the Order.

Jim

"Jim Culp" > wrote in message
...
>
> Gentlemen & Ladies who fly gliders,
> in USA:
>
> You think you got a bad Operating Limitations limit?
>
>
> Think again.
>
> I bought a 1983 Schleicher ASW-20C, a year ago. Nice
> glider!
>
> There was no Ops Limits in file.
>
> I wrote the Charlotte FSDO where glider was handled
> for 'Special Airworthiness Certificate - Exhibition'
> .
>
> To seek this, I gave FAA FSDO date of issuance of
> SpecAirworthinessCertificate, who signed it for FAA,
>
>
> and asked FSDO to send me the file copy of Operating
> Limitations on N929M, Asw-20C.
>
> They did. Got it in the mail. Good service. They
> keep things in files. Yup.
>
> Know ye,
> that this glider has been flown all over the country
> in the years since 1983
> in many contests and many long long flights here and
> there. Sho nuff. Fine glider.
>
> Yes, indeed, it is a Schleicher Segelflugzeugbau Factory
> German built ASW-20C,
> with german LBA Type Certificate.
> That showed on its German LBA Export Certificate of
> Airworthiness.
>
> Well, got the Operating Limitations from FAA FSDO Charlotte,
> dated when US Certificate of Airworhiness was issued.
>
> No updates had been done.
> No modifications.
>
> Brothers and Sisters, I tell you.
>
> My jaw fell slack. My eyes glased over.
>
> My heart stopped.
>
> N929M is limited to flight within twenty (20) nautical
> mile radius of Chester Municipal Airport, S.C.
>
>
> You got it. That is it.
>
> This was not temporary.
>
> This requirement was not designed nor specified to
> be flown off, as a temporary measure, as is often the
> drill for experimental amateur built aircraft.
>
> As specified by FAA, this 20 NM Flight Radius from
> Chester Municipal Airport is for real, and permanent.
>
>
> Who says we don't get more Government than we pay for?
>
> Those FAA staff were
> Workin' Overtime
> To Regulate this Glider.
>
> Uh. Gee.
>
> Well, since I live in Florida, I must deal with Orlando
> FSDO and shall seek a permissive revision.
> Will do.
> No clue what I shall get.
>
> Now, I am seeking and gathering copies of highly permissive
> ASW-20 Operating Limitations
> to use as evidences
> to support my Letter Seeking Operating Limitations
> Change;
> in that I shall request modification to the FAA.
>
>
> I am further seeking from any of you operating under
> Special Airworthiness Certificate -Experimental, Exhibition
> and or Racing, permissive Operating Limitations specifications.
> Also, I am seeking copies of Operating Limitations
> that are highly permissive of other gliders Special
> Airworthiness Certificated that are Experimental -
> Ex/and or Racing
>
> For those of you who say Operating Limitations are
> not enforced, consider: The only time any enforcement
> of the paperwork or other things comes is when there
> has been an accident, incident, or other cause in their
> minds for FAA to say,
>
> 'Lets start with the paperwork....' Pilot certificate,
> Aircraft Registration, Airworthiness Certificate...ad
> infinitum,,,and then if they dont like ya they have
> the violation fall back of undefined Careless and Wreckless
> Operation of Aircraft. It is not a juried event, and
> no court procedures must be followed.
>
> Dancing on clouds,
>
> Keep it up!
>
> Jim Culp USA
> GatorCity Fla
> Asw-20C
> 17459 Nw 175 Ave
> Alachua, Fla 32615
>
>

[Kevin Christner]

Jim,

When you moved didn't you have to get a new airworthiness certificate
from the local FSDO. Every experimental glider I've had has required a
reissue of the airworthiness.

Kevin

[Jim Phoenix]

No,

My certificate was issued pre-1993. The order grandfathers all certificates
pre-1993 to their originally issued Ops Limitations letter. My letter does
not state I have to get a new one when I move or sell the glider. Later Ops
Limitations state that.

It's important not to lose your pre-1993 certificate or Ops Limitations, a
replacement will probably, most likely, be in accordance with the newer
Order.

Jim

"Kevin Christner" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jim,
>
> When you moved didn't you have to get a new airworthiness certificate
> from the local FSDO. Every experimental glider I've had has required a
> reissue of the airworthiness.
>
> Kevin
>

[Bob C]

In the airshow business, I have to deal with this issue
every weekend. My operating limitations are 250 mile
radius from my home field. It is a simple matter to
include other sites in your annual program letter.
My program letter is a simple one-pager. I just update
it in the spring as my show schedule firms up. You
may also fax a change to FSDO if you decide on a last-minute
trip to another site.

I'm guessing most of us forget all about the program
letter. I'm also guessing that if everyone sent one
annually, with weekly updates, the FAA might get tired
of dealing with it and reduce the requirements.

This requirement came about as a result of the large
number of Russian jets that flooded the market about
20 years ago. They were being registered as experimental-exhibiti
on, but were being flown (at high altitude and high
airspeed) like certified aircraft. There was even
a temporary moratorium on ALL Exp-Exh aircraft (including
gliders) for a few weeks while FAA decided what to
do about the problem. I don't recall for sure, but
I'm guessing this was all the result of an accident
somewhere that made the news.

What, if anything, is SSA doing on this front???

Bob C.



At 04:00 10 January 2005, Jim Phoenix wrote:
>No,
>
>My certificate was issued pre-1993. The order grandfathers
>all certificates
>pre-1993 to their originally issued Ops Limitations
>letter. My letter does
>not state I have to get a new one when I move or sell
>the glider. Later Ops
>Limitations state that.
>
>It's important not to lose your pre-1993 certificate
>or Ops Limitations, a
>replacement will probably, most likely, be in accordance
>with the newer
>Order.
>
>Jim
>
>'Kevin Christner' wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Jim,
>>
>> When you moved didn't you have to get a new airworthiness
>>certificate
>> from the local FSDO. Every experimental glider I've
>>had has required a
>> reissue of the airworthiness.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>
>
>