Nearest near-miss?

[[email protected]]

The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
Let’s hear your story,
JJ

[Dan Marotta]

OK, prior to transponders in gliders, I was flying over South Park, CO
at the highest legal altitude.Â* A Citation jet heading for Buena Vista
descended over me passing just in front.Â* I recall clearly his wheels in
the gear wells.Â* Had I thought of it at the time, I probably could have
read the brand name on the tires.Â* Very unsettling.Â* Still it was quite
some time before I installed a Trig 22.Â* It had not been invented at the
time of my close encounter.

On 5/10/2019 10:47 AM, wrote:
> The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
> Let’s hear your story,
> JJ

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

Me in a DG-303 10+ years ago thermalling a handful of miles south of the Panoche VOR in California. An area of convergence along the local low-ranges that causes some great soaring. Lots of higher-level traffic come in over that VOR heading into KJSC but normally not a lot of lower level stuff.

It's scattered clouds and I'm getting up near cloudbase at 6?k feet or so. As I come around a turn I see a C150/C152 cutting through my thermal circle.. 100' or so away. Going the opposite way to me. Two POB, I think I can make out an instrument hood on the pilot. I expect it is a training flight flight inbound to the VOR. I was looking and had not seen the Cessna at all. How do you not see a lumbering C150? The background pattern of mottled clouds helped make that hard. Who knows how well the instructor was looking out, or monitoring the student.

My DG-303 glider already had a transponder, that incident lead me to get a Zaon PCAS.

Years later I in the Mendocino mountains in Northern CA I had a fire bomber (P2 Neptune ?) fly close to my thermal circle. It was not working any local fires (we are very careful with Fire TFRs and traffic when they are live), it was just transiting the area, nowhere near as close as the C152 I had found the firebomber with a scan after the Xaon went off and watched it pass by. OK a Neptune is a lot larger than a C150 but the Zaon working exactly like I hoped it would was impressive. BTW that Neptune flew right though the start gate area for local contests... had it been a busy day things could have been worse.

And close in different ways...

I was flying out of Minden the day of the ASG-29 (with transponder turned off) / Hawker midair. We were coming back from the north, so not close to the middair, but landed our Duo Discus as the lead search helicopter was leaving to look for the glider pilot. We checked but nothing we could do to help and my grim expectation was the glider pilot was dead--utterly amazing that he survived. That incident and some of the confused reposes to it about UAT technology got me more interested in the technical aspects of transponders, ADS-B and FLARM.

Then there was the day I was going to fly with Hal Chouinard but I could not make it so Hal went to a different glider port, and Hal and Sean Boylan were killed in a glider-towplane middair. We were talking about it at that time, but PowerFLARM became available in the USA some time after that fatal mid-air.

There are many more close encounters and near middair collisions. Be safe out there.

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 12:07:25 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> OK, prior to transponders in gliders, I was flying over South Park, CO
> at the highest legal altitude.Â* A Citation jet heading for Buena Vista
> descended over me passing just in front.Â* I recall clearly his wheels in
> the gear wells.Â* Had I thought of it at the time, I probably could have
> read the brand name on the tires.Â* Very unsettling.Â* Still it was quite
> some time before I installed a Trig 22.Â* It had not been invented at the
> time of my close encounter.
>
> On 5/10/2019 10:47 AM, wrote:
> > The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
> > Let’s hear your story,
> > JJ
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

[ripacheco1967]

When I had less than 10 hours after getting my private pilot rating flying a C-152 into Panama City, landed in the wrong runway, the wrong way and there was a citation trying to take off on the other side of the runway. My "copilot" , another low-time pilot, took over and moved the plane of the runway to the grass... after i apologized to the citation he said they had us in TCAS ...

[Dan Marotta]

And on the other side of that coin...

When I was a First Officer/Instructor Engineer with Braniff back in
1979/80, we were on the second to last leg home from Denver (Stapleton)
to Colorado Springs and then back to Dallas.Â* Our flight clearance was
to fly down the front range at 11,000 feet and I recall the Captain
saying:Â* "Let's see how fast this baby will go." I did not know about
gliders back then but we made 350 KIAS through an area that I later flew
a lot in gliders.Â* I hope there were no gliders about at the time.Â* A
727 would have been very large and loud at max power from the
perspective of a glider.

On 5/10/2019 1:07 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> OK, prior to transponders in gliders, I was flying over South Park, CO
> at the highest legal altitude.Â* A Citation jet heading for Buena Vista
> descended over me passing just in front.Â* I recall clearly his wheels
> in the gear wells.Â* Had I thought of it at the time, I probably could
> have read the brand name on the tires.Â* Very unsettling.Â* Still it was
> quite some time before I installed a Trig 22.Â* It had not been
> invented at the time of my close encounter.
>
> On 5/10/2019 10:47 AM, wrote:
>> The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about
>> who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my
>> incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden
>> sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots
>> when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths
>> were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two
>> seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet,
>> it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too
>> late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I
>> didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had
>> a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I
>> could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they
>> never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake
>> turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened
>> up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below
>> and behind him.Â* How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay
>> claim at 50 Feet!
>> Let’s hear your story,
>> JJ
>

--
Dan, 5J

[James Metcalfe]

Ridge soaring in the French Alps (local to the airfield, waiting for an
improvement in the weather) with a very experienced pupil handling. He
started to turn right; I automatically glanced right, Flarm beeped, I
glanced down and straight back up to find the daylight blocked out by the
underside of X's glider in what appeared to be 60 degrees of bank,
overtaking us and climbing.
Later I discussed it with X on the ground: he had spotted us on his "Flarm

Radar" moving map and thought he would nip over and say hello!
Unannounced, he zoomed from behind and below us, "knowing" that we
"would not do anything stupid" because (he assumed) we would know he
was there. But the first that we knew was that beep, perhaps 2 seconds
before impact by an aircraft that we could not have seen (behind and
below) - but for X's quick evasive reaction.
Interestingly, X explained to me that I shouldn't rely solely on Flarm for

collision avoidance!! Draw your own conclusions!
J.

[RR]

I was flying out of Sterling Mass. We found some wave about 5 miles south of an inbound to Boston airway. At around 13k we could see the inbound traffic to our north. I was next to another glider when I saw him do a mild wingover to the left. Thinking, gee, you don't usually see gliders do acrobatics in wave. I watched him jog to the left when and I turned my gaze back to the west, I was looking right down two engines attached to an RJ. It looked like I might be seeing a bit of the bottom of the fuselage, so I pushed over, and literally closed my eyes. I never heard them, but there could not have been much room. After i gathered my thoughts, I called Boston Center to tell them gliders were flying between 9 and 14,000 ft. The rather terse reply was "We Know"...

I went home and bought a pcas. Now I fly with a transponder and ADS-B out.

[Tango Eight]

Overtaken by another glider in a pre-start thermal. His belly over my canopy about ten feet. Flight logs confirm.

T8

[[email protected]]

The two biggest blind spots are below and in front of you or above and behind you. My closest is the one I didn’t see but was told about it by a rather reputable pilot after the fact. I was flying along in a Nimbus 3 early on a 500 mile task out of Minden during the Open class nationals. We all started pretty much at the same time since it was such along task. This was before we carried transponders, had Flarm, or any of that good stuff. Anyway I zoom up in a thermal and I hear that my tail missed the guy directly behind me by about three feet! He has a cool head and isn’t known to exaggerate.

[George Haeh]

Coming out of my vortex / downburst encounter on final over a gravel pit, I climbed to clear a topsoil pile. My cogitations about where to put the glider were rudely disrupted by seeing the braid of the power cable that I cleared by 5' or so.

Only my equanimity was damaged

[son_of_flubber]

July 5th, 2016 I was flying on a heading at 70 knots and losing altitude. Another glider pilot warned me on CTAF that I have a Cessna on my six. A few seconds later, the Cessna flew directly over my canopy. Seemed like 100 feet away. If I get another warning about traffic on my six in the future, I plan to immediately turn 90 and dive. Thoughts?

October, 2017 I was orbiting over Sugarbush Ski Resort at 6000, slowly climbing in wave, Mode-S transponder, in contact with BTV approach and monitoring frequency. Approach warns a Cirrus that there is a glider 12 o'clock, same altitude. I get a traffic warning on Powerflarm. I spot the Cirrus. Immediate steep 90 turn and dive. I get a good look at the belly of the Cirrus. Cirrus says to Approach. "Okay, I saw the glider".

I figure that more and more power planes will be looking at their ADS-B-in screens and that 'see and avoid' is becoming less reliable. So last year I decided to add TABS on top of my Trig TT21. I have experimental airworthiness, so it's several hundred bucks for the upgrade.

June 2018, one month after deploying TABS, I'm in contact with BTV approach at 6000 and crossing the extended centerline of RW 35. About 25 miles from BTV. Its a little hazy. Approach tells a Piper 'Traffic 2 miles, 1 o'clock, same altitude', pause,'Traffic 1 mile, 1 o'clock, same altitude' The Piper says 'I still don't see the glider... but I've got him on ADS-B'. At this point, I realized why TABS/ADS-B-out is so much better than a vanilla Mode-S transponder. Radar contact let Approach warn the Piper, but TABS let the Piper 'see me'.

[George Haeh]

Recovering from my vortex / downburst encounter on final over a gravel pit I had to climb to clear a topsoil pile. My subsequent urgent cogitations about where to put the glider were rudely disrupted by seeing the braid of the power cable that I cleared by 5' or so.

Only my equanimity was damaged.

[Delta8]

Ka6 Years ago in a booming thermal 1,100' per minute over the Poconos approaching cloud base. When I looked up and estimated 2 more turns and I would be in the cloud . I exited the thermal and heard the 747 before I saw it apox 9,500 msl . I saw it for a brief eternity where I would have been !!!
A good reason to abide by the FARs.

[Phil Jeffery[_2_]]

At 16:47 10 May 2019, wrote:

Don't you really mean 'Nearest near-hit?' ?

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

I'm wondering how many of these have ever been reported (to the authorities, not on r.a.s.). In the pre-transponder days I'd wager not many. The power pilot likely never saw the glider and the glider pilot likely didn't want the FAA up in his/her business.

If you don't have one, get a transponder - at least.

All my near misses are with gliders - many with Flarm screaming like a banshee. Thank goodness for that. Thermal entry - particularly out west where the pull-ups can be huge - is the main scenario for me.

Andy Blackburn
9B

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
> Let’s hear your story,
> JJ

I number of years ago, I was flying a K-8 southbound from Stanton MN to Dodge Center at about 8,000 ft. During the flight there were a couple of C-130s heading south about 3,000 ft below us. The gliders in the area where discussing this on the radio, and the other aircraft were not a factor.

An hour or so later, I was headed northbound back to Stanton, and I could hear the C-130s coming up right behind me. I didn't know what to do. I contemplated doing a sharp 90 degree turn to make myself more visible, but I was concerned that if I did an abrupt maneuver like that, I might actually create a collision. I finally decided just to keep flying straight to minimize my cross section and limit the potential for a collision.

Sure enough, 30 seconds later, I saw the C-130s less than 1,000' banking off my right wing tip at my exact altitude. They apparently saw me and were flying around me.

I now fly a Phoenix Motorglider with ADS-B IN and OUT. It is absolutely amazing how much traffic is out there that you absolutely can not see, even when you know EXACTLY where to look and the other aircraft is less than a mile away. See and avoid does not work reliably in the real world. We need every aircraft to be ADS-B equipped. That's ultimately the solution to get rid of mid-airs.

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 8:33:56 AM UTC-4, Mike Schumann wrote:
> We need every aircraft to be ADS-B equipped.

We need an FAA that works for us, instead of against us.

T8

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 8:33:56 AM UTC-4, Mike Schumann wrote:
> See and avoid does not work reliably in the real world.

Absolutely. That's why all gliders need FLARM.

[Dan Marotta]

Back in the 90s I was leading my partner's brother on a cross country
flight out of Black Forest in Colorado.Â* As we neared Pike's Peak we
heard a roar and saw an A-7 pass close by on our right.Â* I told him to
hang on as they always travel in pairs.Â* Sure enough, a couple of
seconds later, his wing man passed on our left...Â* They were in route
formation but I like to think they saw us and split up to pass us on
either side.

On 5/11/2019 6:33 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>> The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
>> Let’s hear your story,
>> JJ
> I number of years ago, I was flying a K-8 southbound from Stanton MN to Dodge Center at about 8,000 ft. During the flight there were a couple of C-130s heading south about 3,000 ft below us. The gliders in the area where discussing this on the radio, and the other aircraft were not a factor.
>
> An hour or so later, I was headed northbound back to Stanton, and I could hear the C-130s coming up right behind me. I didn't know what to do. I contemplated doing a sharp 90 degree turn to make myself more visible, but I was concerned that if I did an abrupt maneuver like that, I might actually create a collision. I finally decided just to keep flying straight to minimize my cross section and limit the potential for a collision.
>
> Sure enough, 30 seconds later, I saw the C-130s less than 1,000' banking off my right wing tip at my exact altitude. They apparently saw me and were flying around me.
>
> I now fly a Phoenix Motorglider with ADS-B IN and OUT. It is absolutely amazing how much traffic is out there that you absolutely can not see, even when you know EXACTLY where to look and the other aircraft is less than a mile away. See and avoid does not work reliably in the real world. We need every aircraft to be ADS-B equipped. That's ultimately the solution to get rid of mid-airs.

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

"Hi, I'm from the government, I'm here to help!".

I have seen the stereotypical government type, and I have found some VERY reasonable types.

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 12:47:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> ..who’s got the closest near-miss?

I was flying out of Bayreuth in the BavariaGlide Pre-Worlds in 1999,
on a task leg heading east (sun to my back) over an large area with no lift,
kinda final-glide to the next area with lift. Suddenly the cockpit got quite
dark. I instinctively pushed the stick forward and looked up, to clearly see
the tape weave on the gear doors of the Nimbus 3D passing directly overhead..
Probably less than 5 feet to the gear, which means my tail was *really* close.
IIRC there were around 80+ gliders in that contest. We had one fatal mid-air.

[Tom BravoMike]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 12:26:02 PM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 12:47:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > ..who’s got the closest near-miss?
>
> I was flying out of Bayreuth in the BavariaGlide Pre-Worlds in 1999,
> on a task leg heading east (sun to my back) over an large area with no lift,
> kinda final-glide to the next area with lift. Suddenly the cockpit got quite
> dark. I instinctively pushed the stick forward and looked up, to clearly see
> the tape weave on the gear doors of the Nimbus 3D passing directly overhead.
> Probably less than 5 feet to the gear, which means my tail was *really* close.
> IIRC there were around 80+ gliders in that contest. We had one fatal mid-air.
>
> I've had many close ones with errant gliders in and especially entering gaggles.
>
> A few scares with oncoming gliders under streets as well.
>
> All these strongly motivated my work on FLARM!
>
> Another scary one wasn't quite as close as the Nimbus:
> In Vermont decades ago, the glider above and ahead
> of me in the gaggle hit a tree and pitched down a bit...
>
> Be careful out there,
> Best Regards, Dave

Dave, if I understand it correctly, he passed over your glider from behind. He was passing because he flew faster. So if you "instinctively pushed the stick forward", you actually accelerated, while obviously losing some height. Do you remember what happened with the distance between the two of you? I'm asking because I was in a similar situation (it was done intentionally 'for fun' by the other pilot - we spoke on the ground and he apologized for his dangerous stunt), and it was scary exactly because I couldn't get away from him. I guess opening the airbrakes would have been a better solution, but it all happened in a second and there was no time to think what was best.

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 8:02:17 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> Dave, if I understand it correctly, he passed over your glider from behind.
> He was passing because he flew faster. So if you "instinctively pushed the
> stick forward", you actually accelerated, while obviously losing some height.
> Do you remember what happened with the distance between the two of you?
> I'm asking because I was in a similar situation (it was done intentionally
> 'for fun' by the other pilot - we spoke on the ground and he apologized for
> his dangerous stunt), and it was scary exactly because I couldn't get away
> from him. I guess opening the airbrakes would have been a better solution,
> but it all happened in a second and there was no time to think what was best.

Spoilers would be better, except it takes another second to move your hand...
Pushing the stick forward raised the tail which could have made things worse.
He passed ahead as higher performance and wingloading allowed faster cruise
while still arriving high enough at the area with lift.

Be careful out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: The incident in Vermont required evasive action but not so close!

[WB]

Had a close one out on task some years ago at Cordele. Beautiful classic strong day. Lots of marker clouds, all working. I was coming up under a lovely flat bottomed cu and just starting to feel the surge. Suddenly my forward view is completely full of Ventus. Got a brief but close look at the top of a bucket hat. The “senior� pilot never saw me. He was bombing along with all his control levers hard forward and had yanked on the middle one when he felt the lift. Had he pulled up half a second sooner, he would have speared me right in the belly. He completed his ballistic arc and dove for mach out the other side. Don’t forget to look up before you pull!

WB

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:26:02 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> (sun to my back)

Correction - Sun mostly overhead (early afternoon, start of task).

[[email protected]]

I was "shot down" by a B-17! The B-17 was operating from ALB, about 20 miles away from our gliding home plate, Saratoga County Airport, NY (5B2). The B-17 was taking well heeled passengers, who were willing to shell out several hundred bucks, for a ride. I was recently licensed in gliders and was struggling in a weak thermal near 5B2 at 2200'. The B-17 came on the CTAF and and announced he was doing a pass over 5B2 at 2000'. Before I could respond on the radio, someone else replied and told the B-17 "gliders in the area". The B-17 replied "glider in sight, no factor". I thought I was safe, but apparently the B-17 had another glider in sight and passed directly below me. The roar of those four big radials was deafening, and I remember looking right into the eyes of the passenger riding in the top turret. The close encounter had me so shook that I lost my thermal and ended up having to land soon thereafter - thus the "shoot down". I now have a transponder in my newer glider.

[[email protected]]

Cruising down the ridge in central Pa. late afternoon in the fall and looking into the lowering sun. It wasn't blinding yet but still a factor. Suddenly, there was a another glider coming at me head-on and quite near my altitude. I instinctively buried the stick. There was no thinking involved. He passed over me with maybe 50'(or less) separating us vertically. There was no lateral separation. Had we been at the same altitude our wings would have hit, maybe even striking each other fuselages. I don't know who it was and no one reported anything like this once all were back on the ground. Either he never saw me or maybe was flying from another field. It scared the crap out of me. That we didn't collide was simply a matter of luck.

[C-FFKQ (42)]

1981, during PPL training (I already had a GPL) at a military base in Canada that also did commercial and GA traffic.

ATC had given me clearance to land and I was about 50' above the tarmac in a C-152 when ATC called and said, "You are being overtaken by a Douglas 9, many knots". Looked out the back window to see that I was about to become a hood ornament. Instructor took over, firewalled the throttle and shifted to the side of the runway while trying to climb away. The DC-9 passed us about 10 seconds later on his rollout.

[[email protected]]

Head to head with an F18c, by probably 50 to 100 feet in the Austin MOA about 10 years ago. I could easily see his helmet and mask and he was looking up at me. Amazing sight since I enjoy seeing military aviation hardware but with closure rates that high, not much a glider can do to get out of the way.
Darren

[[email protected]]

On final glide back home, 6000 ft,I was passing by an active field that produces alot of biz jet traffic, about 6 miles to my right. I was watch that area to my right pretty consistently as I was passing by the departure runways path. When I took a look to my left there was an Airbus bearing down on me. He went into a left roll just as I saw him. I rolled right and down. If he hadn't seen me it probably wouldn't have worked out.

I am now equipped with both Flarm and a transponder.

[[email protected]]

20 years ago we had an "aircombat" school/experience based near us using Marchettis. I was in a thermal still a ways from cloud base when I heard a pair of engines unwinding and I saw the pair in a desending streak passing my cloud vertically.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 9:47:45 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
> Let’s hear your story,
> JJ

I heard tell of a pilot flying a MD520N off the end of the map and through a jump zone. He looked up from trying to fold maps and recover from unusual attitude, to see a chute above the disk, on either side of aircraft and in chin bubble. Flew right through the middle of a load of jumpers.

[AS]

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 12:47:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
> Let’s hear your story,
> JJ

Many moons ago, I was flying my light, unballasted Libelle out of Ridge Soaring, PA. The ridge wasn't super strong that day but strong enough to allow for good speed. Flying from Altona, PA back north-east towards Julian, I was just at the ridge level and coming up on Karl's field, when I spotted a glider's silhouette up ahead. It is hard to tell, if the glider is coming at you or going away from you. Anyways, I had the right wing on the ridge, so I had the right-of-way. The other guy wasn't budging, so I dove just a tad down when 'the glider' passed maybe 20 ft above. What I thought was a big glider far away was in reality a RC-glider close up! Passing by Karl's fire tower, I spotted a long RC-antenna sticking out of the window. Made all sense then and luckily, we didn't hit each other. A large model could do some serious damage.

Uli
'AS'

[danlj]

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> The Transponder chatter on other threads got me to thinking about who’s got the closest near-miss? Thought I’d kick it off with my incident over 40 years ago. I was flying my homebuilt wooden sailplane over Mono Lake, Ca. Cursing south at 16000’ and 60 knots when I spotted a 4 engine jet below and to my left. Our flight paths were going to intersect, but he was a good 500 feet below me. Two seconds later it became crystal clear that it wasn’t a 4 engine jet, it was a 4 pod jet with 8 engines and the B-52 was climbing fast! Too late for me to maneuver,I’m doing 60 and he’s doing maybe 360, and I didn’t want to throw my belly to him. I just sat there thinking I had a front row seat to my demise! As he passed just under my nose, I could clearly see the copilot reading his checklist! I’m sure they never saw me, but I sure as hell saw them! I figured the wake turbulence was going to tear my little Duster to bits, so I tightened up my parachute straps. Nothing! Guess the turbulence all went below and behind him. How far can you see a man reading a book? I’ll lay claim at 50 Feet!
> Let’s hear your story,
> JJ

About 5 years ago, I was gliding along at 5000 msl, in cruise to the south, near KRNH airport on a lovely sunny afternoon. A piston twin suddenly flashed past about a quarter mile in front of me at 5000. I'd just settled down from that excitement when another did the same thing. I did have a transponder, but it was in 'off' mode due to excessive power consumption and low battery.

I mentioned this to a pilot, during a flight physical, who was also a controller at ZMP. She said, "Oh, you were near AGUDE intersection -- we bring all the IFR traffic from the east into the MSP Class A across AGUDE."

That winter John DeRosa re-did my panel, including ADS-B, and he got the total power consumption under 1000mA (not including transmission). It is satisfying inflight, and I've now got battery power to spare.

DrDan Johnson

[son_of_flubber]

These anecdotes make me wonder. Has anyone ever installed ADS-B-out or TABS in gliders BEFORE having a near-collision? What were your reasons for taking the plunge?

I know that it is not uncommon to install transponders as a precaution before having a close call, but there seems to be more reluctance to install ADS-B-out and TABS even amongst people have ample disposable income. This is just my impression.

[Dan Marotta]

For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
documentation correct and approved.Â* There's no provision for gliders in
the STC provided for the TN70.Â* It was also very expensive and the WAAS
GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the TT22 remote box.Â*
Fortunately, there's plenty of room behind the Stemme's panel for the
hardware.Â* I haven't had a "close encounter" since installing a
transponder about 7 years ago.Â* The TN70 install was in Nov 2018, IIRC.

On 5/15/2019 11:17 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> These anecdotes make me wonder. Has anyone ever installed ADS-B-out or TABS in gliders BEFORE having a near-collision? What were your reasons for taking the plunge?
>
> I know that it is not uncommon to install transponders as a precaution before having a close call, but there seems to be more reluctance to install ADS-B-out and TABS even amongst people have ample disposable income. This is just my impression.

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

Dan

Why are you raising STCs here? We've been over this many times. It does not matter there was no glider mention in the STC.

There was not *approval* for your install. Your A&P just submitted a 337 to the FAA following a simple set of instructions.

Again, for an ADS-B Out install in a type certified glider an STC is not be needed *as an STC* for to get approval for an install, it does not matter the STC does not cover a glider. It's only used to show that a particular pairing of an ADS-B Out GPS and Transponder have been previously approved.

You don't need or want an STC giving any more details for any install in a glider. What would that achieve? And no manufacturer is going to pay to develop one.

Forget ADS-B Out, there are no stupid STCs for any transponder install in any glider. Oh my God... how can we possibly have all those transponders installed without STCs?

If your A&P every says he/she needs an STC to install any avionics in a type certified glider run the **** away.


On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 4:49:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
> documentation correct and approved.Â* There's no provision for gliders in
> the STC provided for the TN70.Â* It was also very expensive and the WAAS
> GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the TT22 remote box.Â*
> Fortunately, there's plenty of room behind the Stemme's panel for the
> hardware.Â* I haven't had a "close encounter" since installing a
> transponder about 7 years ago.Â* The TN70 install was in Nov 2018, IIRC.
>
> On 5/15/2019 11:17 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > These anecdotes make me wonder. Has anyone ever installed ADS-B-out or TABS in gliders BEFORE having a near-collision? What were your reasons for taking the plunge?
> >
> > I know that it is not uncommon to install transponders as a precaution before having a close call, but there seems to be more reluctance to install ADS-B-out and TABS even amongst people have ample disposable income. This is just my impression.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:49:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
> documentation correct and approved.Â*

For me, the documentation was trivial. I made a logbook entry and got a PAPR https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx (recommended but not required) The TT22 antenna got moved to a more optimal position further back in the fuselage, so I had got a fresh transponder compliance check (which was due anyways). My avionics tech looked over the installation that I did..


> It was also very expensive

The TN72 including an interior mount antenna cost ~$400. I also bought a custom length antenna wire for the XPND for a few bucks. Craggy made the interconnect cable for me. I had a fun 5-6 hours doing the install. The transponder was installed by the previous owner.


>WAAS GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the XPND remote box.

The TN72 GPS box is smaller than the XPND remote box.Â*


> Fortunately, there's plenty of room behind the Stemme's panel for the
> hardware.Â*

No room left behind my panel, so I mounted a piece of plywood vertically behind my headrest on the turtle deck, and mounted the boxes to it. Provisions made to ensure air circulation. Space occupied is 2.5 inches front to back, 4" vertical, and full width of the turtle deck. Radio & vario speakers and a 'dashcam' are mounted to the same piece of plywood. I still have room on the turtledeck for a compression stuffsack of rain/cold/etc. gear, food, water for landouts.


> I haven't had a "close encounter" since installing a
> transponder about 7 years ago.Â*

As noted in my post above, one month after my install, I had one confirmed 'problem averted' with a GA airplane that could only 'see me' on their ADS-B-in screen. Better visibility to GA airplanes is the big win.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 8:20:19 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:49:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
> > documentation correct and approved.Â*
>
> For me, the documentation was trivial. I made a logbook entry and got a PAPR https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx (recommended but not required) The TT22 antenna got moved to a more optimal position further back in the fuselage, so I had got a fresh transponder compliance check (which was due anyways). My avionics tech looked over the installation that I did.
>
>
> > It was also very expensive
>
> The TN72 including an interior mount antenna cost ~$400. I also bought a custom length antenna wire for the XPND for a few bucks. Craggy made the interconnect cable for me. I had a fun 5-6 hours doing the install. The transponder was installed by the previous owner.
>
>
> >WAAS GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the XPND remote box.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 10:17:51 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> These anecdotes make me wonder. Has anyone ever installed ADS-B-out or TABS in gliders BEFORE having a near-collision? What were your reasons for taking the plunge?
>
> I know that it is not uncommon to install transponders as a precaution before having a close call, but there seems to be more reluctance to install ADS-B-out and TABS even amongst people have ample disposable income. This is just my impression.

I installed a Trig22 and TN72 as SIL=3 in an experimental ASW27b PRIOR to a close call (that I know of...) I want to give myself every advantage to see and be sen by other aircraft. I also have FLARM and a dedicated traffic display, and an AH if things should suddenly go white...

[Dan Marotta]

Darryl,

You're right, of course.

On 5/15/2019 7:29 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Dan
>
> Why are you raising STCs here? We've been over this many times. It does not matter there was no glider mention in the STC.
>
> There was not *approval* for your install. Your A&P just submitted a 337 to the FAA following a simple set of instructions.
>
> Again, for an ADS-B Out install in a type certified glider an STC is not be needed *as an STC* for to get approval for an install, it does not matter the STC does not cover a glider. It's only used to show that a particular pairing of an ADS-B Out GPS and Transponder have been previously approved.
>
> You don't need or want an STC giving any more details for any install in a glider. What would that achieve? And no manufacturer is going to pay to develop one.
>
> Forget ADS-B Out, there are no stupid STCs for any transponder install in any glider. Oh my God... how can we possibly have all those transponders installed without STCs?
>
> If your A&P every says he/she needs an STC to install any avionics in a type certified glider run the **** away.
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 4:49:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
>> documentation correct and approved.Â* There's no provision for gliders in
>> the STC provided for the TN70.Â* It was also very expensive and the WAAS
>> GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the TT22 remote box.
>> Fortunately, there's plenty of room behind the Stemme's panel for the
>> hardware.Â* I haven't had a "close encounter" since installing a
>> transponder about 7 years ago.Â* The TN70 install was in Nov 2018, IIRC.
>>
>> On 5/15/2019 11:17 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>> These anecdotes make me wonder. Has anyone ever installed ADS-B-out or TABS in gliders BEFORE having a near-collision? What were your reasons for taking the plunge?
>>>
>>> I know that it is not uncommon to install transponders as a precaution before having a close call, but there seems to be more reluctance to install ADS-B-out and TABS even amongst people have ample disposable income. This is just my impression.
>> --
>> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 8:20:19 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:49:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
> > > documentation correct and approved.Â*
> >
> > For me, the documentation was trivial. I made a logbook entry and got a PAPR https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx (recommended but not required) The TT22 antenna got moved to a more optimal position further back in the fuselage, so I had got a fresh transponder compliance check (which was due anyways). My avionics tech looked over the installation that I did.
> >
> >
> > > It was also very expensive
> >
> > The TN72 including an interior mount antenna cost ~$400. I also bought a custom length antenna wire for the XPND for a few bucks. Craggy made the interconnect cable for me. I had a fun 5-6 hours doing the install. The transponder was installed by the previous owner.
> >
> >
> > >WAAS GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the XPND remote box.
> >
> > The TN72 GPS box is smaller than the XPND remote box.Â*
> >
> >
> > > Fortunately, there's plenty of room behind the Stemme's panel for the
> > > hardware.Â*
> >
> > No room left behind my panel, so I mounted a piece of plywood vertically behind my headrest on the turtle deck, and mounted the boxes to it. Provisions made to ensure air circulation. Space occupied is 2.5 inches front to back, 4" vertical, and full width of the turtle deck. Radio & vario speakers and a 'dashcam' are mounted to the same piece of plywood. I still have room on the turtledeck for a compression stuffsack of rain/cold/etc. gear, food, water for landouts.
> >
> >
> > > I haven't had a "close encounter" since installing a
> > > transponder about 7 years ago.Â*
> >
> > As noted in my post above, one month after my install, I had one confirmed 'problem averted' with a GA airplane that could only 'see me' on their ADS-B-in screen. Better visibility to GA airplanes is the big win.
>
> It's fantastic you both installed 1090ES out, and the point that a TN72 install is pretty easy is a great one... if anybody has a Trig transponder adding a TN72 should be easy.
>
> But now what are you guys comparing? Dan was talking about a 2020 Compliant (aka SIL=3) ADS-B Out install in a type certificated glider, so the need for the fancier TSO-C145c TN70 GPS with it's extra space and cost (compared to a TN72 GPS).
>
> Now that's being compared to a 2020 Compliant install in an experimental glider right? Hence the TN72, smaller size, lower cost and slightly easier process (no 337 submitted).
>
> It's unfortunate that the ADS-B out install is different between a type certified and experimental glider, frustrating, it makes no justifiable sense and the extra cost/small hassle increase may affect adoption and overall safety. But that is how it is. We know it's more expensive, but the process to do this has some extra paperwork but should just not be daunting, and the install should not be technically challenging. Any A&P should be able to do that (should not need to be an IA)... obviously you want somebody who you trust to work on a gliders.
>
> And a reminder you can use a TN72 in a type certified glider to do TABS (aka SIL=1) but not 2020 Compliance (SIL=3), that gets you everything except visibility to ATC via ADS-B (they still see you via SSR within SSR coverage) and does not get you any 2020 Airspace flight privileges (the remaining airspace that the glider/engine powered generator... exemption does not cover). You can also use the TN72 to do TABS if you have a TT21 but not TT22 in an experiential glider (2020 compliance requires a TT22).

Has anyone tried to get AOPA to do some advocacy for saner requirements for VFR only aircraft in general and standard airworthiness gliders in particular? There's no downside... even the FAA might have to admit that.

Evan Ludeman

[Dan Marotta]

In the aftermath, the paperwork was the easiest part of the installation
in the Stemme.Â* Initially there was concern as there's no mention of the
Stemme on the Approved Model List.Â* Further investigation lead me to the
simple 337 route and my IA was good at accomplishing that.

The biggest difficulties were with the wiring.Â* The purchased interface
cable was not built to satisfy the requirements of the installation
manual.Â* The cable provided power to the TN70 from the TT22, whereas the
installation manual required that the TN70 be powered through a
dedicated circuit breaker.Â* Nor did the kit include a pneumatic
air/ground switch and the specified switch was much more expensive (of
course) than what could be had for experimental aircraft.Â* To get around
these hurdles I had to modify the cable by breaking the power circuit
and adding a ground wire to the air/ground switch.Â* In an airplane one
could use GPS ground speed to determine takeoff but, in a glider flying
wave, the glider could "land" at high altitude if its ground speed
dropped below the threshold.

My installation took me 3-4 days (in the winter) because I wanted it to
pass inspection and test, first time, with no "gotchas".Â* I'm glad it's
done!


On 5/15/2019 10:49 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 8:20:19 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:49:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
>>> documentation correct and approved.
>> For me, the documentation was trivial. I made a logbook entry and got a PAPR https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx (recommended but not required) The TT22 antenna got moved to a more optimal position further back in the fuselage, so I had got a fresh transponder compliance check (which was due anyways). My avionics tech looked over the installation that I did.
>>
>>
>>> It was also very expensive
>> The TN72 including an interior mount antenna cost ~$400. I also bought a custom length antenna wire for the XPND for a few bucks. Craggy made the interconnect cable for me. I had a fun 5-6 hours doing the install. The transponder was installed by the previous owner.
>>
>>
>>> WAAS GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the XPND remote box.
>> The TN72 GPS box is smaller than the XPND remote box.
>>
>>
>>> Fortunately, there's plenty of room behind the Stemme's panel for the
>>> hardware.
>> No room left behind my panel, so I mounted a piece of plywood vertically behind my headrest on the turtle deck, and mounted the boxes to it. Provisions made to ensure air circulation. Space occupied is 2.5 inches front to back, 4" vertical, and full width of the turtle deck. Radio & vario speakers and a 'dashcam' are mounted to the same piece of plywood. I still have room on the turtledeck for a compression stuffsack of rain/cold/etc. gear, food, water for landouts.
>>
>>
>>> I haven't had a "close encounter" since installing a
>>> transponder about 7 years ago.
>> As noted in my post above, one month after my install, I had one confirmed 'problem averted' with a GA airplane that could only 'see me' on their ADS-B-in screen. Better visibility to GA airplanes is the big win.
> It's fantastic you both installed 1090ES out, and the point that a TN72 install is pretty easy is a great one... if anybody has a Trig transponder adding a TN72 should be easy.
>
> But now what are you guys comparing? Dan was talking about a 2020 Compliant (aka SIL=3) ADS-B Out install in a type certificated glider, so the need for the fancier TSO-C145c TN70 GPS with it's extra space and cost (compared to a TN72 GPS).
>
> Now that's being compared to a 2020 Compliant install in an experimental glider right? Hence the TN72, smaller size, lower cost and slightly easier process (no 337 submitted).
>
> It's unfortunate that the ADS-B out install is different between a type certified and experimental glider, frustrating, it makes no justifiable sense and the extra cost/small hassle increase may affect adoption and overall safety. But that is how it is. We know it's more expensive, but the process to do this has some extra paperwork but should just not be daunting, and the install should not be technically challenging. Any A&P should be able to do that (should not need to be an IA)... obviously you want somebody who you trust to work on a gliders.
>
> And a reminder you can use a TN72 in a type certified glider to do TABS (aka SIL=1) but not 2020 Compliance (SIL=3), that gets you everything except visibility to ATC via ADS-B (they still see you via SSR within SSR coverage) and does not get you any 2020 Airspace flight privileges (the remaining airspace that the glider/engine powered generator... exemption does not cover). You can also use the TN72 to do TABS if you have a TT21 but not TT22 in an experiential glider (2020 compliance requires a TT22).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 7:58:33 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 8:20:19 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:49:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > For a Standard category glider it was a big pain to install and get the
> > > > documentation correct and approved.Â*
> > >
> > > For me, the documentation was trivial. I made a logbook entry and got a PAPR https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx (recommended but not required) The TT22 antenna got moved to a more optimal position further back in the fuselage, so I had got a fresh transponder compliance check (which was due anyways). My avionics tech looked over the installation that I did.
> > >
> > >
> > > > It was also very expensive
> > >
> > > The TN72 including an interior mount antenna cost ~$400. I also bought a custom length antenna wire for the XPND for a few bucks. Craggy made the interconnect cable for me. I had a fun 5-6 hours doing the install. The transponder was installed by the previous owner.
> > >
> > >
> > > >WAAS GPS box is very large, nearly double the size of the XPND remote box.
> > >
> > > The TN72 GPS box is smaller than the XPND remote box.Â*
> > >
> > >
> > > > Fortunately, there's plenty of room behind the Stemme's panel for the
> > > > hardware.Â*
> > >
> > > No room left behind my panel, so I mounted a piece of plywood vertically behind my headrest on the turtle deck, and mounted the boxes to it. Provisions made to ensure air circulation. Space occupied is 2.5 inches front to back, 4" vertical, and full width of the turtle deck. Radio & vario speakers and a 'dashcam' are mounted to the same piece of plywood. I still have room on the turtledeck for a compression stuffsack of rain/cold/etc. gear, food, water for landouts.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I haven't had a "close encounter" since installing a
> > > > transponder about 7 years ago.Â*
> > >
> > > As noted in my post above, one month after my install, I had one confirmed 'problem averted' with a GA airplane that could only 'see me' on their ADS-B-in screen. Better visibility to GA airplanes is the big win.
> >
> > It's fantastic you both installed 1090ES out, and the point that a TN72 install is pretty easy is a great one... if anybody has a Trig transponder adding a TN72 should be easy.
> >
> > But now what are you guys comparing? Dan was talking about a 2020 Compliant (aka SIL=3) ADS-B Out install in a type certificated glider, so the need for the fancier TSO-C145c TN70 GPS with it's extra space and cost (compared to a TN72 GPS).
> >
> > Now that's being compared to a 2020 Compliant install in an experimental glider right? Hence the TN72, smaller size, lower cost and slightly easier process (no 337 submitted).
> >
> > It's unfortunate that the ADS-B out install is different between a type certified and experimental glider, frustrating, it makes no justifiable sense and the extra cost/small hassle increase may affect adoption and overall safety. But that is how it is. We know it's more expensive, but the process to do this has some extra paperwork but should just not be daunting, and the install should not be technically challenging. Any A&P should be able to do that (should not need to be an IA)... obviously you want somebody who you trust to work on a gliders.
> >
> > And a reminder you can use a TN72 in a type certified glider to do TABS (aka SIL=1) but not 2020 Compliance (SIL=3), that gets you everything except visibility to ATC via ADS-B (they still see you via SSR within SSR coverage) and does not get you any 2020 Airspace flight privileges (the remaining airspace that the glider/engine powered generator... exemption does not cover). You can also use the TN72 to do TABS if you have a TT21 but not TT22 in an experiential glider (2020 compliance requires a TT22).
>
> Has anyone tried to get AOPA to do some advocacy for saner requirements for VFR only aircraft in general and standard airworthiness gliders in particular? There's no downside... even the FAA might have to admit that.
>
> Evan Ludeman

The fat lady may have left the barn already, with 2020 being so close.

I had hoped that some organizations might look at this with an STC approach similar to the STC that use non-TSO instruments flight instruments in type certified aircraft. Both AOPA and EAA have been involved in those efforts..

e.g. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/july/28/non-tso-possibilities-abound

https://www.flyingmag.com/non-certified-avionics-coming-to-certified-airplanes (asks does not answer the ADS-B Question)

Larger avionics manufactures who manufacture existing TSO-C145c GPS sources may have a financially disincentive to not help here. It is 2020 regulations driving ADS-B Out demand, not a free market. Avionics manufacturers in the flight instruments and autopilot upgrade market are more incented to jump onto the non-TSO STCs and compete to win panel upgrade business in a more competitive open market environment. The glider community is pretty lucky that Trig has been focused where they are, and been just nice folks like helping the FAA develop the TABS TSO-C199 standard on one hand, working with Peregrine to get the TN70 STC available to glider A&Ps etc. Maybe being an OEM customer (not OEM) of GPS technology and a desire to sell more of their transponders provided some financial alignment for them.

In the parallel universe of UAT even uAvionix has gone the TSO route for their devices for install in type certified aircraft, and that's with having to develop STCs for actual installs anyhow. (they brag about how many aircraft are on their AML STC list for devices... actually being on the AML list becomes more of an issue once you get to more complex GA installs and IFR aircraft panels, and may be in part to placate GA repair shop concerns about say replacing a wing-tip or tail-light with a non-OEM device). I suspect it was quicker for uAvionix to just comply, develop the TSO and install STC than to try to develop a whole new STC approach for a non-TSO-C145c GPS source.

[Jj]

"Further investigation lead me to the
simple 337 route and my IA was good at accomplishing that."

So I'm curious. Unless a 337 is used for a field approval, it is just a documentation of work and inspection form for major repair and/or alteration. It still needs the documentation of the approval to perform said work.

Can you share what was on your 337?
What approved documents or was it a field approval, aproved by your local FSDO?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 11:44:36 AM UTC-7, Jj wrote:
> "Further investigation lead me to the
> simple 337 route and my IA was good at accomplishing that."
>
> So I'm curious. Unless a 337 is used for a field approval, it is just a documentation of work and inspection form for major repair and/or alteration. It still needs the documentation of the approval to perform said work.
>
> Can you share what was on your 337?
> What approved documents or was it a field approval, aproved by your local FSDO?

Why does an ADS-B Out install need a field approval? It should be a minor alteration. This has been covered on r.a.s so many times, you can search the previous posts here.

The FAA describes very clearly exactly what is needed for an ADS-B Out install, including use of the 337: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/installation/media/ADS-B_Out-In_Installation_Tech_Paper(9-25-17).pdf. Read it and follow the steps.

[Jj]

I agree completely, thats why I dont understand the use of a 337.

[Jj]

"Dan Marotta
In the aftermath, the paperwork was the easiest part of the installation
in the Stemme. Initially there was concern as there's no mention of the
Stemme on the Approved Model List. Further investigation lead me to the
simple 337 route and my IA was good at accomplishing that. "

This is what I am curious about. Why the use of a 337?
It does nothing but document work. The use of a 337 is not an reference or approval to accomplish the work.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 12:11:07 PM UTC-7, Jj wrote:
> I agree completely, thats why I dont understand the use of a 337.

I gave you the FAA document that directs A&P on what to do, **you need to read it**. It tell you exactly what you are asking, and even includes instruction on how to complete the 337. Dan's A&P did exactly that after I pointed them at this policy.

The practical use of the 337 here where it's not a major alteration is so the FAA can track ADS-B Out installations. The ADS-B Out hardware does not transmit information about what it is, or what GPS is attached to it, and I expect the FAA wants to know.. especially to look for what hardware installs have problems or what A&P installers are creating problems.

The FAA has evolved ADS-B out installs significantly, initially they all required approval in type certified aircraft, now it's just a 337 notice to record the install unless it otherwise requires approval. The other thing that was found/obvious was the tight dependency between GPS source, ADS-B Out hardware and the ability to only pair some devices, and the need to follow precise instructions for that pairing. That is why the FAA requires use of STC to justify that pairing (and provide the installer with relevant setup instructions). That STC is not otherwise required.. which is how it can be used here if the aircraft is not in the AML.

With an experimental install there is no need to follow this policy, so don't provide the 337 to the FAA. And the "meets blah blah..." wording in 14 CFR 91.227 allows use of a lower cost TN72 instead of an actual TSO-C145c TN70. But I hope the FAA is able to capture lots of similar information about installed hardware in the public ADS-B performance report request form.

[Dan Marotta]

It documented the work.Â* The 337 was sent to the FAA by the IA and he
provided me with a sticker to place in the glider's logbook.

On 5/16/2019 1:56 PM, Jj wrote:
> "Dan Marotta
> In the aftermath, the paperwork was the easiest part of the installation
> in the Stemme. Initially there was concern as there's no mention of the
> Stemme on the Approved Model List. Further investigation lead me to the
> simple 337 route and my IA was good at accomplishing that. "
>
> This is what I am curious about. Why the use of a 337?
> It does nothing but document work. The use of a 337 is not an reference or approval to accomplish the work.

--
Dan, 5J

[Jj]

Ok, my bad, I guess.

As I read Dan's message it appeared to me that he said the "installation" paperwork was the easiest part. They did a 337.
That implied to me that a 337 was used as the reference to accomplish the install.
I didnt mean to get you twisted up, I just wanted to understand.

[Dan Marotta]

Now I understand what you were saying.Â* The STC package came with a
complete installation manual which I followed to the letter.Â* Darryl
also provided me with some configuration tips which have been
beneficial.Â* The 337 was simply documentation.

Sorry if I clouded the waters.

On 5/16/2019 3:10 PM, Jj wrote:
> Ok, my bad, I guess.
>
> As I read Dan's message it appeared to me that he said the "installation" paperwork was the easiest part. They did a 337.
> That implied to me that a 337 was used as the reference to accomplish the install.
> I didnt mean to get you twisted up, I just wanted to understand.

--
Dan, 5J