Battery for gliders

[Udo Rumpf]

I bought two Panasonic 7,2a/h batteries and I am very disappointed.
Lucky for me I had two Yuasa 7.0 a/h units, one of which was still in good
working order. I was able to get a direct comparison between the two.
Both Panasonic batteries show at least a 25% less performance compared to
Yuasa. This is the usable time everything being equal.

Also after "identical charge" of all three batteries the two Panasonic's
always
show the same 12.52 volt with the surface charge removed.
While the Yuasa always shows 12.76 volts.

Was I mislead by the Panasonic spec sheet?
How come the old Yuasa outperforms the two new Panasonic,
despite the fact the Panasonic is rated higher by .2 a/h ?
How am I to select the battery if I can not trust the spec sheet?
Is it all reputation. Please advise

Regards
Udo

[Ken Kochanski (KK)]

I have also had low/bad performance from my Panasonics ... as did my
partner ... this is too much of a coincidence ... I like powersonic
.... yuasa seems fine also ... www.ragebattery.com has great prices ...
even when you include shipping.

KK


Was I mislead by the Panasonic spec sheet?
How come the old Yuasa outperforms the two new Panasonic,
despite the fact the Panasonic is rated higher by .2 a/h ?
How am I to select the battery if I can not trust the spec sheet?
Is it all reputation. Please advise

[Papa3]

Udo,

I don't know anything about process and quality controls in battery
manufacturing, so I can't make an authoritative comment. But, I've
seen a similar complaint levelled against another supposedly
high-quality brand. In that case, annecdotal evidence from people I
trust (ie. several methodical and careful glider pilots) kept me away
from that brand. I then spoke with the guy at the local electronics
supply house, and he said he had "never, ever had a single problem"
with that brand, and he claimed to sell "hundreds of them per month."
Go figure.

However, this retailer did mention that he had seen problems caused by
incorrect storage. High temperature and long term storage without
charging can apparently cause permanent loss of capacity. His
professional opinion was that this was more likely to be the problem
with "bad cells", especially if several were purchased from the same
place.

In any event, I've had very good luck with Powersonic cells. Their
claimed discharge curves are available on the Web, so you can see if
they meet your needs.

P3

[Jim Vincent]

>I have also had low/bad performance from my Panasonics ... as did my
>partner .

I think much of that has to do with the charger you use. The best one I've
found is configured by the factory to the specific charging requirements of
your battery model. Check out:

http://www.xenotronix.com/products/leadacid/hpx-10.htm




Jim Vincent
N483SZ

[keithw]

Powersonic has a 8 ah battery that is the same size as a 7 ah.


--
keithw
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

[Bob Fidler]

EaglePicher has a 9A same sixe as a 7A, cost me about $20.

Bob Fidler
"keithw" > wrote in message
...
>
> Powersonic has a 8 ah battery that is the same size as a 7 ah.
>
>
> --
> keithw
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
> - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they
> fly -
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Bob Fidler wrote:

> EaglePicher has a 9A same sixe as a 7A, cost me about $20.

Can you give the model number and where you bought it? The only Eagle
Picher I can find that is the same size as the usual 7 AH is also 7.2 AH.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[[email protected]]

Nobody has mentioned the obvious. Not everybody is using the same discharge
time.
Some are 10 hr, some are 20 hr rates. It makes a difference. Easily enough
to
change the ads. Longer times (lower discharge rates) make their advertising
look better.

The other technique is to change the discharged voltage, or the charged
voltage.

If you want a better comparison, find the curves and compare them. And the
weights.
And the size. You might be surprised to find that there is little difference
in the
capacities. Chemistry is chemistry.

The other item is to pick a bingo voltage that is correct for the
application, not the
battery. Compare the curves down to that point. If the radio or other
electronics start
to go south at 11 volts, while loaded, the curve below 11 volts will not
take care of
everything that you want to do.

Hence twice the batteries so that the amp-hours are way up there, cause you
can
only use a part of them.

Dennis

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
>Bob Fidler wrote:
>
>> EaglePicher has a 9A same sixe as a 7A, cost me about $20.
>
>Can you give the model number and where you bought it? The only Eagle
>Picher I can find that is the same size as the usual 7 AH is also 7.2 AH.
>
>--
>Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA

[Andy Blackburn]

These 8Ah batteries have worked well for me.

http://www.zbattery.com/zbattery/hr9-12b1.html

They are 'High Rate' batteries, which appear to work
better under the ~1A that my panel draws. Even so,
each battery last about 5 hours.

9B

At 23:30 12 January 2005, wrote:
>Nobody has mentioned the obvious. Not everybody is
>using the same discharge
>time.
>Some are 10 hr, some are 20 hr rates. It makes a difference.
>Easily enough
>to
>change the ads. Longer times (lower discharge rates)
>make their advertising
>look better.
>
>The other technique is to change the discharged voltage,
>or the charged
>voltage.
>
>If you want a better comparison, find the curves and
>compare them. And the
>weights.
>And the size. You might be surprised to find that there
>is little difference
>in the
>capacities. Chemistry is chemistry.
>
>The other item is to pick a bingo voltage that is correct
>for the
>application, not the
>battery. Compare the curves down to that point. If
>the radio or other
>electronics start
>to go south at 11 volts, while loaded, the curve below
>11 volts will not
>take care of
>everything that you want to do.
>
>Hence twice the batteries so that the amp-hours are
>way up there, cause you
>can
>only use a part of them.
>
>Dennis
>
>Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
>>Bob Fidler wrote:
>>
>>> EaglePicher has a 9A same sixe as a 7A, cost me about
>>>$20.
>>
>>Can you give the model number and where you bought
>>it? The only Eagle
>>Picher I can find that is the same size as the usual
>>7 AH is also 7.2 AH.
>>
>>--
>>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>>
>>Eric Greenwell
>>Washington State
>>USA
>
>
>

[Paul M. Cordell]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Bob Fidler wrote:
>
>> EaglePicher has a 9A same sixe as a 7A, cost me about $20.
>
>
> Can you give the model number and where you bought it? The only Eagle
> Picher I can find that is the same size as the usual 7 AH is also 7.2 AH.
>
Even @ 7 ah, we should support our own. The President of Eagle Picher
flies a Discus 2!

[Michael McNulty]

" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> If you want a better comparison, find the curves and compare them. And the
> weights.
> And the size. You might be surprised to find that there is little
> difference
> in the
> capacities. Chemistry is chemistry.
>
Chemistry determines the voltage, but the capacity is set by geometry and
design details. I know that Eagle-Picher has been working on inovative
woven mat designs to increase the capactiy of SLA batteries; perhaps the
unusually high capacity battery (for its size) cited earlier in this thread
uses this technology.

<snip>

[[email protected]]

Udo,

After 20 years on a 12-volt system, I've returned to 14 volts,
completely eliminating all problems with battery life. I'm using the PS
12/8 with a 2 volt piggy back. I am very happy with the results. Like
Ken, I purchase my batteries from ragebattery.

[Nyal Williams]

Several questions about this thread.

1. How does one piggyback (physical sense) a 2 volt
batter on top of the twelve in a well (i.e. Discus)
that clamps securely around the 12v battery?

2. How does one identify the dimensions of all the
various 12v. batteries offered by ragebatteries? (I
just looked at the site suggested two posts back on
this thread.)

3. Has anyone ever manufactured a 14v. battery that
would be usable?



At 01:00 14 January 2005, wrote:
>Udo,
>
>After 20 years on a 12-volt system, I've returned to
>14 volts,
>completely eliminating all problems with battery life.
>I'm using the PS
>12/8 with a 2 volt piggy back. I am very happy with
>the results. Like
>Ken, I purchase my batteries from ragebattery.
>
>

[Ken Kochanski (KK)]

The rage site has a physical data sheet for each battery ... or you
could go to the manufacturers site to see dimensions of the entire
line.

2. How does one identify the dimensions of all the
various 12v. batteries offered by ragebatteries? (I
just looked at the site suggested two posts back on
this thread.)

[Bob Fidler]

Eagle Picher Model No. CF-12V9
1-800-201-0215 or


I purchased from a local battery store in Michigan:
Batteries Plus 248-644-0666

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Fidler wrote:
>
>> EaglePicher has a 9A same sixe as a 7A, cost me about $20.
>
> Can you give the model number and where you bought it? The only Eagle
> Picher I can find that is the same size as the usual 7 AH is also 7.2 AH.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State
> USA

[Tim Mara]

I used to offer Eagle Picher batteries.......the spec's looked impressive
but honestly I had more complaints with these than all other types I offered
and ended up replacing more and more often than others....finally elected
not to continue with this brand and offer now just Powersonic
batteries.......these are low cost and have proven to be excellent.
tim
www.wingsandwheels.com

"Bob Fidler" > wrote in message
...
> Eagle Picher Model No. CF-12V9
> 1-800-201-0215 or
>
>
> I purchased from a local battery store in Michigan:
> Batteries Plus 248-644-0666
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Bob Fidler wrote:
> >
> >> EaglePicher has a 9A same sixe as a 7A, cost me about $20.
> >
> > Can you give the model number and where you bought it? The only Eagle
> > Picher I can find that is the same size as the usual 7 AH is also 7.2
AH.
> >
> > --
> > Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> >
> > Eric Greenwell
> > Washington State
> > USA
>
>

[[email protected]]

Nyal,

A picture would be best, but here's the narrative. I use hook locks (a
substantial step up from velcro) to mate the batteries. I place the
back (based on brand position) of the 2V against the terminal end of
the 12V about 1 inch above the bottom. This provides clearance at the
front of the battery tray and puts the 2V terminals slightly above the
12V terminals. I then use strapping tape to secure the attachment
between the hook and lock pads. I tested this arrangement by placing
both batteries in the tray of my Ventus 2 while trailering several
hundred miles. It has proven more than adequate. I inspect the bond
regularly and have found no weakening. Wiring is in series. Be sure to
include a fuse. If you have a strong interest, I'll be happy to forward
a photo. My wife uses the same set up in her LS-8. The 14V system has
dramatically improved the transmission quality and strength of her
Microair radio.

I am finding I can fly about 7 hours per 14V battery before I'm seeing
14.3V. I generally start the flight around 15.1V. I run an SN-10 with
one analog, Dittel FSG-2T, Cambridge Model 25 Data logger and read out,
a flap position LED, and gear warning.

With a 12V system, my SN-10 would start giving me voltage warning
around 4 hours and my radio would become discerably less reliable.

The PowerSonic model numbers are PS-1280 (12V) and PS-260 (2V). Rage
doesn't appear to carry the 1280 anymore. Try W&W.

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Several questions about this thread.
>
> 1. How does one piggyback (physical sense) a 2 volt
> batter on top of the twelve in a well (i.e. Discus)
> that clamps securely around the 12v battery?
>
> 2. How does one identify the dimensions of all the
> various 12v. batteries offered by ragebatteries? (I
> just looked at the site suggested two posts back on
> this thread.)
>
> 3. Has anyone ever manufactured a 14v. battery that
> would be usable?
>
>
>
> At 01:00 14 January 2005, wrote:
> >Udo,
> >
> >After 20 years on a 12-volt system, I've returned to
> >14 volts,
> >completely eliminating all problems with battery life.
> >I'm using the PS
> >12/8 with a 2 volt piggy back. I am very happy with
> >the results. Like
> >Ken, I purchase my batteries from ragebattery.
> >
> >

[Nyal Williams]

I would appreciate the photo very much. There are
no gimmicks in my address. .

One further concern is whether 15.1v be too much for
my Volkslogger? I believe the L-Nav and the Dittel
radio would take it ok. I'll check that out, but I
believe the specs say that it will handle up to 20v.

Thanks!

Nyal
At 21:00 14 January 2005, wrote:
>Nyal,
>
>A picture would be best, but here's the narrative.
>I use hook locks (a
>substantial step up from velcro) to mate the batteries.
>I place the
>back (based on brand position) of the 2V against the
>terminal end of
>the 12V about 1 inch above the bottom. This provides
>clearance at the
>front of the battery tray and puts the 2V terminals
>slightly above the
>12V terminals. I then use strapping tape to secure
>the attachment


>between the hook and lock pads. I tested this arrangement
>by placing
>both batteries in the tray of my Ventus 2 while trailering
>several
>hundred miles. It has proven more than adequate. I
>inspect the bond
>regularly and have found no weakening. Wiring is in
>series. Be sure to
>include a fuse. If you have a strong interest, I'll
>be happy to forward
>a photo. My wife uses the same set up in her LS-8.
>The 14V system has
>dramatically improved the transmission quality and
>strength of her
>Microair radio.
>
>I am finding I can fly about 7 hours per 14V battery
>before I'm seeing
>14.3V. I generally start the flight around 15.1V. I
>run an SN-10 with
>one analog, Dittel FSG-2T, Cambridge Model 25 Data
>logger and read out,
>a flap position LED, and gear warning.
>
>With a 12V system, my SN-10 would start giving me voltage
>warning
>around 4 hours and my radio would become discerably
>less reliable.
>
>The PowerSonic model numbers are PS-1280 (12V) and
>PS-260 (2V). Rage
>doesn't appear to carry the 1280 anymore. Try W&W.
>
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>> Several questions about this thread.
>>
>> 1. How does one piggyback (physical sense) a 2 volt
>> batter on top of the twelve in a well (i.e. Discus)
>> that clamps securely around the 12v battery?
>>
>> 2. How does one identify the dimensions of all the
>> various 12v. batteries offered by ragebatteries?
>>(I
>> just looked at the site suggested two posts back on
>> this thread.)
>>
>> 3. Has anyone ever manufactured a 14v. battery that
>> would be usable?
>>
>>
>>
>> At 01:00 14 January 2005,
>>wrote:
>> >Udo,
>> >
>> >After 20 years on a 12-volt system, I've returned
>>>to
>> >14 volts,
>> >completely eliminating all problems with battery life.
>> >I'm using the PS
>> >12/8 with a 2 volt piggy back. I am very happy with
>> >the results. Like
>> >Ken, I purchase my batteries from ragebattery.
>> >
>> >
>
>

[Z Goudie]

At 23:30 14 January 2005, Nyal Williams wrote:
>One further concern is whether 15.1v be too much for
>my Volkslogger? I believe the L-Nav and the Dittel
>radio would take it ok. I'll check that out, but I
>believe the specs say that it will handle up to 20v.

The power supply to my Volkslogger when downloading/uploading
it at home shows 16+ volts without any apparent problem.

[tango4]

Colibri Loggers and LX vario avionics get very unpredictable over 16 volts
( in spite of what the original manuals said - up to 24v iirc ) I had a
Colibri reading over 75000 feet amsl whilst on the runway.

Ian

[Michael McNulty]

"tango4" > wrote in message
...
> Colibri Loggers and LX vario avionics get very unpredictable over 16 volts
> ( in spite of what the original manuals said - up to 24v iirc ) I had a
> Colibri reading over 75000 feet amsl whilst on the runway.
>
> Ian
>
My Colibri manual, dated Feb. 2001, gives the operating voltage as 10-15
volts.

[David Kinsell]

Papa3 wrote:
> Udo,
>
> I don't know anything about process and quality controls in battery
> manufacturing, so I can't make an authoritative comment. But, I've
> seen a similar complaint levelled against another supposedly
> high-quality brand. In that case, annecdotal evidence from people I
> trust (ie. several methodical and careful glider pilots) kept me away
> from that brand. I then spoke with the guy at the local electronics
> supply house, and he said he had "never, ever had a single problem"
> with that brand, and he claimed to sell "hundreds of them per month."
> Go figure.
>

Perhaps the people buying hundreds of these per month aren't trying
to run 14 volt instruments on 12 volt batteries, like so many glider
pilots do???

[unt]

Hi Udo

As far as I know there is (theoretical) 2.6 V per cell in these batteries.
Though (practical) 6 cells a 2.45V gives 14.7 V.
Which charging utility do you own? Constant current or constant voltage?
These sort of batterie NEED ca constant voltage to charge of 14.7V. The
loading current is decreasing with the charging time.
Mabe you should invest in a better charging utility.
The batterie lifetime is also dependent to the current your are taking out
of it. Some are better with high current and lasting longer. Today we need
quite a lot of current for radio,GPS,Logger,PDA et. al.
There was a good paper about that in the German Aerokurier.

Check that you can charge them up to 13.6 V or more and then compare them
again with the same voltage after charge.
We had very good experience with Sonnenschein. The say to charge them with
2.4V to 2.45V per cell and 2.3V - 2.35 per cell if you charge it the whole
week until next flight. Check these things at Panasonic.

One thing I don't understand is that we own plane for 100'000$ but we want
to buy cheap batterie?

Cheers FW.

"Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
. ..
> I bought two Panasonic 7,2a/h batteries and I am very disappointed.
> Lucky for me I had two Yuasa 7.0 a/h units, one of which was still in
good
> working order. I was able to get a direct comparison between the two.
> Both Panasonic batteries show at least a 25% less performance compared to
> Yuasa. This is the usable time everything being equal.
>
> Also after "identical charge" of all three batteries the two Panasonic's
> always
> show the same 12.52 volt with the surface charge removed.
> While the Yuasa always shows 12.76 volts.
>
> Was I mislead by the Panasonic spec sheet?
> How come the old Yuasa outperforms the two new Panasonic,
> despite the fact the Panasonic is rated higher by .2 a/h ?
> How am I to select the battery if I can not trust the spec sheet?
> Is it all reputation. Please advise
>
> Regards
> Udo
>

[[email protected]]

On their way. Is the ellipses in your email address intended?