ASH25 out to kill you?

[ripacheco1967]

I know I’m just learning about all this but reading this about the ASH 25 really made me pause.
(I have a lot of ours on GA aircraft and moving into gliders.)

http://gliding.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Flying%20ASH25%20by%20Stan%20Nelson.pdf

«...The consequence of moving the stick forward with force or aggressively in an Open Class glider is that you may achieve a nose down attitude from which there is no recovery...»

Even a piper meridian wouldn’t be that mean to a pilot.

Is this common place in the glider world?

[[email protected][_2_]]

I disagree, all aircrafts in the GA world have stress limitations. Excluding aerobatic types and perhaps a few others, where pilot physical limitations might be achieved first. Respect the designers limitations and live.
I seriously doubt when you fly your turboprop within 20% of its Vne you push full forward on the controls. If you do, you’ll either run out of altitude or wings.
I recommend a refresher read Wolfgang book of aeronautics. The answers you seek are all there.

R

[Charlie Quebec]

Ive had about 30 hours in a 25. It’s certainly a ponderous beast, and it lets you know very clearly that it must be flown with a great deal of caution and respect. It successor, the 30 is nicer to fly
but needs similar respect. Ive never felt that either was trying to kill me, only that if mishandled, they could.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 7:52:01 AM UTC-5, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> I know I’m just learning about all this but reading this about the ASH 25 really made me pause.
> (I have a lot of ours on GA aircraft and moving into gliders.)
>
> http://gliding.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Flying%20ASH25%20by%20Stan%20Nelson.pdf
>
> «...The consequence of moving the stick forward with force or aggressively in an Open Class glider is that you may achieve a nose down attitude from which there is no recovery...»
>
> Even a piper meridian wouldn’t be that mean to a pilot.
>
> Is this common place in the glider world?

Yes, they are incredibly dangerous. Please give me your ASH-25 so that you can live a long life. :-)

Steve Leonard

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 25 May 2019 05:51:58 -0700, ripacheco1967 wrote:

> I know I’m just learning about all this but reading this about the ASH
> 25 really made me pause.
> (I have a lot of ours on GA aircraft and moving into gliders.)
>
> http://gliding.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/
Flying%20ASH25%20by%20Stan%20Nelson.pdf
>
Thanks for posting that. I only fly a (15m) Standard Libelle, but learned
stuff from the careful explanations in this piece. I've saved a copy for
future reference.

> Is this common place in the glider world?
>
I think its a logical extension of experience flying powered aircraft,
simply because all composite gliders have much less drag, much longer
spans and higher aspect ratios. As a result, they may accelerate faster
in a dive, exhibit much stronger adverse yaw effects, and may flutter
more easily than a typical powered plane that operated in a similar speed
range.

But what do I know? I've only flown two powered plane, my club's Scheibe
SF-25 TMG and a DH Tiger Moth, since I've been a glider pilot. I found
both very easy to fly, especially the Tiger.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[ripacheco1967]

Clearly the article talks about unusual attitude recoveries. Not normal flying.

Totally learning a lot from this article. Learning to fly a glider makes you a way better pilot than just flying Cessnas and pipers around.

Keeping that article in my library. Lots very good information there.

[ripacheco1967]

Oh I wish that 25 was mine. Was considering but not as a first glider by any means
Leaning towards a 27

>>Yes, they are incredibly dangerous. Please give me your ASH-25 so that you can live a long life. :-)
>
> Steve Leonard

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 9:35:29 AM UTC-7, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> Oh I wish that 25 was mine. Was considering but not as a first glider by any means
> Leaning towards a 27
>
> >>Yes, they are incredibly dangerous. Please give me your ASH-25 so that you can live a long life. :-)
> >
> > Steve Leonard

I have maybe 500 hours in open ships, there is just nothing like them. They might be slower in the run on a great day than a 15 meter bird, but when you cross mountain ranges they can reach much further or arrive in the lift band. They will stay in the air when nothing else will and perhaps a bit more care is required when flying but the legs and the ability to dolphin fly for miles and miles..... I miss my N4.

[[email protected][_2_]]

Disagree again......the point raise has nothing to do with recoveries but was written for Lawyers that all attempt is being made to educate dumb pilots not to perform ABRUPT maneuvers or flight control movement in the high speed regime. I say dumb because any airmen worth his salt knows this.
Case in point American Airlines co-pilot full rudder deflection leads to vertical stab failure killing all on board and most recently the loss of an Amazon 767 due to
excessive elevator deflection.
Vo....Maximum Operating Maneuvering Speed...the speed at which if exceeded structural failure could occur with abrupt control movement.
Vne...Never Exceed
This is basic airmen knowledge as important as blue side up and what does the rudder do. Basic

Long wing (open class) sailplanes have additional considerations, but lets hold off on that for now.
A 27 ... enjoy....read the AOM.

R

[ripacheco1967]

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 1:29:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Disagree again......the point raise has nothing to do with recoveries but was written for Lawyers that all attempt is being made to educate dumb pilots not to perform ABRUPT maneuvers or flight control movement in the high speed regime. I say dumb because any airmen worth his salt knows this.
> Case in point American Airlines co-pilot full rudder deflection leads to vertical stab failure killing all on board and most recently the loss of an Amazon 767 due to
> excessive elevator deflection.
> Vo....Maximum Operating Maneuvering Speed...the speed at which if exceeded structural failure could occur with abrupt control movement.
> Vne...Never Exceed
> This is basic airmen knowledge as important as blue side up and what does the rudder do. Basic
>
> Long wing (open class) sailplanes have additional considerations, but lets hold off on that for now.
> A 27 ... enjoy....read the AOM.
>
> R

I like the fact is a two seater, So I can have a qualified instructor saving my behind ;-)

[ripacheco1967]

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 4:38:10 PM UTC-5, ripacheco1967 wrote:
> On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 1:29:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Disagree again......the point raise has nothing to do with recoveries but was written for Lawyers that all attempt is being made to educate dumb pilots not to perform ABRUPT maneuvers or flight control movement in the high speed regime. I say dumb because any airmen worth his salt knows this.
> > Case in point American Airlines co-pilot full rudder deflection leads to vertical stab failure killing all on board and most recently the loss of an Amazon 767 due to
> > excessive elevator deflection.
> > Vo....Maximum Operating Maneuvering Speed...the speed at which if exceeded structural failure could occur with abrupt control movement.
> > Vne...Never Exceed
> > This is basic airmen knowledge as important as blue side up and what does the rudder do. Basic
> >
> > Long wing (open class) sailplanes have additional considerations, but lets hold off on that for now.
> > A 27 ... enjoy....read the AOM.
> >
> > R
>
> I like the fact is a two seater, So I can have a qualified instructor saving my behind ;-)

I am not familiar about issues with the AWS 27, care to enlighten a beginner ?

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 25 May 2019 14:38:46 -0700, ripacheco1967 wrote:

> I am not familiar about issues with the AWS 27, care to enlighten a
> beginner ?
>
ASW-27 is a 15 m flapped single seater - replaced the well-regarded
ASW-20.

Unflapped 15m gliders are generally easy to fly, i.e. little harder to
fly than a training two seater such as an ASK-21, G-103 or Puchacz once
you've engrained the undercarriage retract lever into your pre-landing
checks. Flapped gliders are a bit different especially as, unlike power,
the flap lever tends to be your prime speed control throughout the flight
and not just for launch and landing.

A straight-forward web search for the type name such as ASW-27, LAK-17,
ASK-21 or Puchacz generally gives several hits on any glider that is
flown currently. Try 'Perlan 2' if you want to see something thats really
extreme or SG-38 for a blast from the past.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Ventus_a]

;990724']Disagree again......the point raise has nothing to do with recoveries but was written for Lawyers that all attempt is being made to educate dumb pilots not to perform ABRUPT maneuvers or flight control movement in the high speed regime. I say dumb because any airmen worth his salt knows this.
Case in point American Airlines co-pilot full rudder deflection leads to vertical stab failure killing all on board and most recently the loss of an Amazon 767 due to
excessive elevator deflection.
Vo....Maximum Operating Maneuvering Speed...the speed at which if exceeded structural failure could occur with abrupt control movement.
Vne...Never Exceed
This is basic airmen knowledge as important as blue side up and what does the rudder do. Basic

Long wing (open class) sailplanes have additional considerations, but lets hold off on that for now.
A 27 ... enjoy....read the AOM.

R

Hi. Just curious as to how much open class time you have.

[Charlie Quebec]

Having just started flying a flapped glider, I have found very little difference in ease of flying. The flaps are used in much the same way as elevator trim.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 25 May 2019 18:35:02 -0700, Charlie Quebec wrote:

> Having just started flying a flapped glider, I have found very little
> difference in ease of flying. The flaps are used in much the same way as
> elevator trim.

Yes, I agree with you - once you've made that transition. It did take me
a bit longer to be in the right flap setting at all times (ASW-20) than
it did to 'get' correct trimmer use in unflapped gliders (ASK-21/SZD
Junior/Discus 1/Pegase 90).

What I was getting at is the learning curve in both switching from from a
more or less infinitely variable trim control to using flaps with only
four or so settings and in getting used to the smaller attitude change
you generally see with flaps as you change flying speed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Interesting read in the link......longest span I have flown is ASK-21 and ASG-29.

[JS[_5_]]

Towing behind the car, yes... But in the air don't let it intimidate you.
To me the ASH25 handles just like an ASW20.
Never spun one, but haven't tried in a 20 either.

Will gladly accept the give-away ASH25 after the one Steve gets.
Jim

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 26 May 2019 07:53:58 -0700, JS wrote:

> To me the ASH25 handles just like an ASW20.
> Never spun one, but haven't tried in a 20 either.
>
I have and recovery is quite benign - recovery in 1/4 turn though 300 ft
lower and doing 80 kts from a 45-50 kt thermal turn with zero flaps
(position 3).

I don't know whether this was specific to my early example (s/n 34), but
it twice departed without warning from a 40 degree banked thermal term at
around 45 kts with zero flap selected. I suspect in-thermal turbulence
had a hand in that because the 2nd time it happened, I tried and failed
to provoke a similar departure in late afternoon air after I finished the
task.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

Martin,
Why are you thermalling in zero flaps? I always went to first positive flap position when thermalling the ASH-25 and never had a departure or even drop a wing.
JJ

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 26 May 2019 11:52:26 -0700, johnsinclair210 wrote:

> Martin,
> Why are you thermalling in zero flaps? I always went to first positive
> flap position when thermalling the ASH-25 and never had a departure or
> even drop a wing.
>
I did that primarily because I preferred the glider's feel in position 3.
It always felt too stately in thermal flap (4) and didn't seem to climb
that much better, except in very weak conditions.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org