Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

[Charles Ethridge]

Hi all.

First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.

I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.

The question has two parts:

1. Are off-airport landouts common?

I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests.. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?

The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?

The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):

"During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"

But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

Charles "Ben" Ethridge

[Tim Taylor]

Ben,

As with most things it depends. I tend to fall in the same camp as Garret. Landing out should be a normal and regular thing. It does depend on your location and fields available. Some sites have plentiful fields and landing out is a non-event. Some areas have limited fields and more caution is required. Damage on a off-field landing should be extremely rare, otherwise the field was not a good one to begin with.

It is important for xc pilots to get comfortable landing off-field. Many pilots have damaged gliders or hurt themselves trying to stretch a glide into an airport when there where good fields they have passed up.

In cross country we often land in fields we have never seen before. As you fly and even drive it is good to start looking at fields to assess if you could land in them. The type of crop, height, irrigation systems, normal fencing, etc. With this your mental map of can develop so that you can have the spatial awareness of potential fields in reach at all times. Even when we are racing we are scanning around us to ensure that there are fields that meet our criteria within reach.

Landing out should not be something to fear, but should be respected. I encourage you to talk with local xc pilots about the fields in your area. A good exercise is to pick on close to home while you are high enough to have options and land in it.

[Charlie Quebec]

Outlanding training is mandatory before XC here, how can you get to,be a CFI and not be well versed in field landings.
A well conducted outlanding is quite safe.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:00:05 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?
>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

In 46 years of soaring, 42 of which have included contest flying, I have had one bad experience when my ego pushed me into a bad situation that required an infamous water landing. I estimate I have done more than 100 field landings with only a few scratches.
Can it be done safely? Yes
Can bad luck , like gopher hole happen? Yes
Do you have to fly to only land on airports? I don't think so.
The most important skill is being able to habitually put the glider where you want it at low energy.
The most important judgement is knowing when to stop soaring and start landing.
Being afraid to land out eventually can lead to taking a big risk to get on an airport, or being so risk averse that you miss a lot of what cross country flying is all about.
Good Luck
UH

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Hmmmm.....great thoughts .

I have landed "off airport" more times than I want to count (likely pushing 3 digits.....sigh....).
Worst damage, pulled a gear door hinge off a ship. Fixed that night, flew next day.
Quite a few "grass stains" or gelcoat scratches from imbedded rocks in a field.

Part of the decades long rules for the Thanksgiving "contest" at HHSC called the Snowbird.
Precision time, touchdown, "parking" to a cone. All get scored in one flight over 2 days.
Goal????
Energy management putting the ship where you want when you want.
Amazing peeps that need to "practice" for this, to me and others.....basic skill for XC. You should do reasonably well if you're current.....

As to off airport landings.....first rule.....DON'T hurt the ship!!! Ship OK, pilot OK (other than pride....).

Yes, I have made bad decisions and successfully landed in places others said impossible. I am running out of luck.....I try to avoid luck.....looking for better decisions.....

As to original question.....not being sharp on putting the ship where you want when you want, not knowing what to look for, "hoping" things will work out, sometimes just bad luck......the better prepped you are (plan every landing to a spot....no exceptions....!!!)....and no "land wherever, others will move it back".....wrong....put it where you want it, deal with issues when they arise....they WILL arise....

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 3:05:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:00:05 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
[snip]

>... when my ego pushed me into a bad situation that required an infamous water landing. I estimate I have done more than 100 field landings with only a few scratches.

Uh could we *please* have the water landing story there. Purely for educational purposes :-)

We keep recycling the same few landout stories out West, Ramy landing in the not dry dry lake, various folks who were "low following Peter Deane and then...", or glassholes who could not start their motorglider engine.

[[email protected]]

Wasn’t the water landing detailed in “A Fine Week of Soaring�?

[[email protected]]

"If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price."


Ben, already a lot of good answers below. Two points, one is raise the hull value of your glider so it would be replaceable. It is YOUR DECLARED VALUE, not what you bought it for. An increase in hull value will probably not cost you as much as you think, and damage to your glider where the hull value is too low will certainly cost you more than you want.

On landing out, Wind, Wires, Slope, Surface. Slope almost always trumps wind. If you can see it from the air, land up slope.

Kevin Anderson
92

[Brian[_1_]]

Yes definitely educate yourself on perils of underinsuring. Short version is that the insurance company may total it and take the glider for something that should really repaired.

Brian

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

This TOTALLY depends on where you fly. In MN south of the Twin Cities, at this time of year there are lots of freshly plowed fields and landing out is no problem at all if you pick a good field. Later in the summer when the corn gets tall, it's a little dicier.

In South Florida landing out is dangerous. You either have orange groves, plowed fields with very deep ditches, everglades that may look pretty benign from the air, but have waves of grass hiding serious coral heads, and absolutely no way to get access to retrieve the glider, or pasture land that has significant obstacles that are hard to see from the air, but which are the reason they are not plowed fields or orchards.

[Charles Ethridge]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:54:23 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Outlanding training is mandatory before XC here, how can you get to,be a CFI and not be well versed in field landings.
> A well conducted outlanding is quite safe.

I was a CFII/MEI, not a CFIG. The closest we ever came to "landout" practice in powered planes was about 500 ft AGL.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

In New Zealand landouts are very common. I'd say something like one a week at my club, on average, and a lot more during a contest.

In the summer when most of the cross country flying is done it's pretty safe. Fields from which a crop of hay has been taken within the last month or so are common, extremely easy to spot from the air, and unlikely to have any nasty surprises.

While simply looking for something when you need it usually works out, it's a good idea to scout out some known-good fields in advance. If you have somewhere you know is ok every 20 or 30 km then it's hard to get caught short.. Other local pilots will already have their own list, and many clubs publish consolidated lists, complete with GPS coordinates, notes, and maybe even photos. Driving around and looking at them from ground level (or grabbing a Cessna or motor glider and making some low approaches) before you start flying cross country in a new area is not a stupid idea.

Where a field is big enough to aero-tow out of and the landowner is cooperative, my club from time to time takes early solo and near solo pilots and a couple of gliders there for a day away from the landmarks of the home field.

You can see a couple of practice approaches into one such field (an aerial topdresing strip, as is common in NZ) in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 8:38:10 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> While simply looking for something when you need it usually works out, it's a good idea to scout out some known-good fields in advance. If you have somewhere you know is ok every 20 or 30 km then it's hard to get caught short. Other local pilots will already have their own list, and many clubs publish consolidated lists, complete with GPS coordinates, notes, and maybe even photos. Driving around and looking at them from ground level (or grabbing a Cessna or motor glider and making some low approaches) before you start flying cross country in a new area is not a stupid idea.
>

+1 on scouting fields ahead of time. Know what the crops are and what they look like from the air. I failed to do this at one contest and it cost me a broken tail boom - my only serious outlanding damage in 40 years of racing..

At a western US contest site I fly frequently the task area is huge and there are lots of dodgy spots. I've scouted and marked in my waypoint database 45-50 fields, dry lakes, and roads (without highway markers). Some based on Google maps and street view, but many of the more important ones by driving up to several hourt out of the way to scout on foot. I also try to scout as many fields in the database as I can from the air when flying, regardless of whether I'm in imminent danger of landing.

It comes in handy. I remember one contest day in particular where I glided through pretty dead air for 70 miles before catching a 7-knot thermal 500' above a a little ridge. The last 20-25 miles of the glide was unlandable terrain. I had marked in the database the first group of cultivated fields in a valley 1500' or so below the ridge that generated the thermal. I never would've gone for it without that knowledge and the field programmed into the glide computer.

Fields can have surprises so it's important to know the local environment, particularly in terms of cultivation, but also in terms of meadows and roadways. Some places the options are pretty good and some places are no-go.

Definitely don't land with the gators. ;-)

Andy Blackburn
9B

[Dan Marotta]

If you're not willing to fly cross country, you really shouldn't buy a
glider.Â* Renting a club or commercial glider will cost far less in the
long run because, if you just hang out around the airport, you'll
quickly become bored and leave the sport.

On 5/26/2019 7:34 PM, wrote:
> "If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price."
>
>
> Ben, already a lot of good answers below. Two points, one is raise the hull value of your glider so it would be replaceable. It is YOUR DECLARED VALUE, not what you bought it for. An increase in hull value will probably not cost you as much as you think, and damage to your glider where the hull value is too low will certainly cost you more than you want.
>
> On landing out, Wind, Wires, Slope, Surface. Slope almost always trumps wind. If you can see it from the air, land up slope.
>
> Kevin Anderson
> 92

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Air Sailing has a Cross-Country camp each Spring, with lectures and field trips addressing this risk. Well worth flying it. You can potentially secure a ship for the week by joining the Nevada Soaring Association, or get a rental from Minden (more expensive).

If you fly conservatively, you will always have some place you'd be happy to land on in range. For me this included the Miccosukee HQ parking lot for the 1-26 - didn't need it, flew past LaBelle. I have taken many roadtrips to look for good fields and stretches of wide, quiet roads without powerlines. Some of my landouts have been in fields that were nicer than airports.

Landing out will not win the day, so the quote you bring up needs massaging..

[6PK]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?
>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

As a rule areas with plenty of farm fields offer plenty of "safer" choices. Also as a rule landing on a public airport should always be the first choice as we must assume that they are kept to a standard and are safe. Private airports not so. The east coast tends to have plenty of safer farm fields where the west coat primarily the desert - has few. We had spent a tremendous amount of time out here (the desert) to identify safe, safer or barely safe alternates to airports. Just landing out in the desert Willie-Nellie may reduce your glider to the equalent of matchsticks and who knows what to your body. Just my nickel's worth....

[Steve Koerner]

Roads are to be avoided unless you have specifically surveyed some particular stretch in advance. Besides cars, problems are signs and posts and wires and berms and parallel wire fencing that can easily become deadly if you ground loop into it.

[BobW]

On 5/27/2019 10:21 AM, 6PK wrote:
> On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
>> Hi all.
>>
<Snip...>
>>
>> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in
>> South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency,
>> of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is
>> quite rare.
>>
>> The question has two parts:
>>
>> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>>
>> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from
>> Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are
>> not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in
>> your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at
>> known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>>
>> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great
>> webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports
>> and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a
>> KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>>
>> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little
>> bit?
>>
<Snip...>
>>
>> Charles "Ben" Ethridge
>
<Snip...>
> Also as a rule landing on a public airport should always be the first
> choice as we must assume that they are kept to a standard and are safe.
Lotsa sensible info/food-for-thought aheada my post. Arguably, it can all be
boiled down to: "YMMV!"

Some years ago my club had a (slightly) busted G-103 due to a landing on a
(public) A/P 9 miles away from the club's (public) A/P. Ye helpful glider
pilot, wanting to be a polite sort, opted to land in the grass beside the
(long, wide) runway...but made the (further?) mistake of opting for a
high-speed taxi across a taxiway "for convenience's sake." It mighta been OK,
but for the 2" lip marking the transition from grass to concrete taxiway...

Point being, that *every* landing (and site) has potential plane-threatening
risks, and it's up to Joe Pilot to sensibly assess them *before* assuming all
is well...e.g. I've seen lighted (public) airports of narrow pavement and
15-meter-narrow-ship-threatening lights. I've also eyeballs-on experience with
WAY too many 15-meter-span ships after tangling with runway edge lights (most
NOT adjacent narrow runways) for various reasons. In much - not all - of the
general region of the Rocky Mountain west in which most of my glider time was
gathered, plowed/disked fields generally offer fewer overt risks than even
most public airports.

> Private airports not so. The east coast tends to have plenty of safer farm
> fields where the west coat primarily the desert - has few. We had spent a
> tremendous amount of time out here (the desert) to identify safe, safer or
> barely safe alternates to airports. Just landing out in the desert
> Willie-Nellie may reduce your glider to the equalent of matchsticks and
> who knows what to your body. Just my nickel's worth....
Bob W.

P.S. The worst damages I've inflicted while landing gliders happened on paved
runways: 1) a collapsed gear on rollout (No! Really! Weak gas strut,
apparently...ultimately enhanced my "practical fiberglass skills"); and 2) a
weed-induced ground loop (pilot stupidity...did minor tailwheel damage to a
G-103; further-exercised previously-gained fiberglass skills).

P.P.S. +1000 on others' previous "Kids, don't do this!" warnings relative to
landing on roads. The idea of doing so is (apparently) strongly seductive to
pilots in general, despite years-of evidence/beaucoup-examples that bad
outcomes are the norm.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[George Haeh]

I know two glider pilots who spotted a hangar, windsock and adjacent runway. On short final the runway looked a little short necessitating good speed control and spot landing skills.

They landed on RC strips.

[WB]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 4:00:05 PM UTC-5, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?
>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

In over 30 years of cross country soaring, I have probably 40 off airport landings. Never a scratch on me or the glider. However, nothing beats seeing for yourself: Do a search on Youtube for "glider outlanding". Lots of videos of gliders landing in farm fields. You will see that most glider landings away from the airport are absolutely no big deal at all. You will find a couple of videos of landings that did not go so well due to poor field selection or a lack of fields to select from. The lesson is that off-airport landings need be no more hazardous than on-airport landings. It's all in having reasonable fields within reach and knowing how to choose an appropriate field.

[ProfJ]

On Sunday, 26 May 2019 15:00:05 UTC-6, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?
>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

I recall someone saying that the stats were (roughly, obviously) major damage to the glider every 100 outlandings; damage to the pilot every 500 outlandings. I'm guessing this is very region dependent.

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 4:00:05 PM UTC-5, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?
>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

My only comment is that as you grow in soaring you will in all probability landout at some point in time. I have hand many. The old adage is "It isn't 'if' you will landout, it is 'when' will you landout". It is "common" but isn't necessarily dangerous.

Your training and studying should prepare you for this eventuality. There is Bob Wander (thin) book dedicated to the subject. You might landout at an airport (best) or a farmer's field (second best) or someplace else. Your GPS navigation device will point the way to available airports based on position, altitude, terrain, and winds aloft.

Every glider pilot has a minimum safety altitude "mind shift" below which they stop trying to thermal (as it becomes VERY difficult to do so low to the ground) and take the time left in the air to prepare to land safely with a pattern just like you were taught. My minimum altitude is around 1,000 ft AGL. After about 2,000 ft AGL I have already begun keeping an eye out for some good spots.

Best of luck in this wonderful sport.

[Brian[_1_]]

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 10:03:14 AM UTC-6, wrote:
<snip>
> Landing out will not win the day, so the quote you bring up needs massaging.

Not always. My story could either make your point or dispute it.

My 1st contest day win was when I followed the contest leader over an airport in still (overcast) air on course. He was trying to get every point he could to stay in the lead. I was not in the running for a contest win, so at the appropriate point I turned around and landed at at the airport. The two leaders continued on and landed in fields, the contest was close enough that the one that did a couple extra miles won the contest. However this was the 1st year that the 25 point airport bonus was implemented and I ended up winning the day by landing at an airport. I landed there just because it was safer and more convenient, I was not aware of the airport bonus, or at least wasn't considering it when I landed there.

Brian

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

BTW....people still break ships landing at their local home field on decent days.... you fly the ship until things stop moving...

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 9:30:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
> Roads are to be avoided unless you have specifically surveyed some particular stretch in advance. Besides cars, problems are signs and posts and wires and berms and parallel wire fencing that can easily become deadly if you ground loop into it.

Yes - roads are the worst place to land...unless the alternatives are worse still. Careful scouting can help but won't solve every problem. For instance, there are a couple of places around Nephi, UT where there are pretty long gaps between airports and no cultivation so you are left with trackless desert (often filled with ravines and boulders - I'm told this is where they filmed "The Martian") or roads. Scouting some spots with enough width that markers and high shoulders aren't a problem still leaves you with the chance of traffic if you get flushed in the wrong spot, but it beats landing in a ravine. Many of these roads are lightly travelled - but others aren't - and you can always run into bad timing I suppose.

I would never head out over such terrain without a glide to an airport, but strong conditions can generate strong sink and you can end up running out of altitude and ideas at the same time in pretty short order.

Emergency landing spots are best not planned in the cockpit if you can help it and best not used if you can avoid it, but I get some comfort out of having at least some hip-pocket spots picked out just in case.

Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.

Andy Blackburn
9B

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:31:15 -0700, Andy Blackburn wrote:

> Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.
>
I've only flown once in the Great Basin and that was only local soaring
from Minden when nothing but weak thermals were on offer, but I have
driven from Denver to Lost Hills, CA (US70, US15 then Lost Hills via
Bakersfield and Wasco) and back via Sacramento on both US50 and US80, so
I have some idea of the area. Your advics seems highly sensible to me,
but I have one question: wouldn't exactly the same advice about landout
planning for flights in that area also apply to all single-engine and
light twin GA aircraft?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[BobW]

On 5/28/2019 3:50 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:31:15 -0700, Andy Blackburn wrote:
>
>> Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.
>>
> I've only flown once in the Great Basin and that was only local soaring
> from Minden when nothing but weak thermals were on offer, but I have driven
> from Denver to Lost Hills, CA (US70, US15 then Lost Hills via Bakersfield
> and Wasco) and back via Sacramento on both US50 and US80, so I have some
> idea of the area. Your advics seems highly sensible to me, but I have one
> question: wouldn't exactly the same advice about landout planning for
> flights in that area also apply to all single-engine and light twin GA
> aircraft?
>

Well - IMO - yes...but from what I can tell few power-only pilots think that
way. There was a recent (two fatalities) ditching of an SEL plane in Lake
Michigan (no trace of plane/people found) which - if one is to believe
comments from folks familiar with the area/FlightAware-inspection - could have
been avoided by either flying higher, or another 12 miles (at their cruising
height) out of their way.

As with much in aviation, things are often "just fine" until they're not. I
was never a fan (bumming rides in GA) cruising over unlandable terrain
presuming the engine was going to continue running.

YMMV, of course.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Roy B.]

Ben:
I fly a lot of cross country kilometers each year and usually with a couple of land outs each season. Historically my biggest problem in landing off airport has been guard dogs. About 3 times now I have encountered some big mean dog who has been waiting all his life for this moment when he will save his farm & family from the big white thing that just arrived from the sky and from the guy who is walking toward the house. Seriously - I've no history of damaging anything (including my gliders) but the unchained guard dog can be a major crisis. So my advice is to enjoy flying XC, accept that off airport landings are an expected risk in the sport, follow all of the wise advice from others in this string - and put some Milkbones in your land out kit.
ROY

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
> <snipped> so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
Ben:
Welcome to soaring, ownership and the adventure/dilemma of determining your OWN risk.


> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?

For owners, often, yes. For US renters and many US club pilots, not so much..
In other countries, depending on terrain and training, often yes for all.

> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles,

Garret's talking about US event RACING ! Not US recreational XC. And yes, many posters in r.a.s. think racing IS recreational soaring. For them, it is..


>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

You DID hear that, a little bit. Personally, I wish that part came through a little more clearly. Great ship, great site, great weather --and expecting to run around "at cloudbase" with no clear grip on the flip side..... when it OD's or you trip/stumble and 'can't get home'. David had no pre-launch plan for "I can't get home". That was his first mental stumble. When faced with that situation, he didn't process quickly enough to devolve to 'let's land somewhere safe'. Really - that's our Number 1 job. The soaring is incidental.
(What? Did she really Say that? Yep.)

Some Where Safe !!
You decide.
That's most frequently an airport.
It might be seasonally appropriate farm fields.
It might be dry lake beds, only rarely is it a road.
XC Pilots can minimize risk by scouting landout sites prior to using
a course line. You can minimize risk by adding safety margins to your calculations of performance,and arrival altitudes. You should minimize
risk by practicing precision landing skills before leaving glide from home.

Don't expect to load a landing site database from some source and march off 'safely'. There are changes over time, different spans, database authors might expect better skill-sets by landers. Not every place is Grade A.

I appreciate a pilot who's aspirations include making zero insurance claims while enjoying soaring as fully as they wish. It helps keep my costs lower by lowering losses from a tiny pool of premium payers.

>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
> <huge snip>

Yes, TOO often.
Sometimes from poor field assessment skills, sometimes poor landing skills.
(The most insurance claims are landouts at home on local flights. Those pilots weren't expecting to landout.)

>I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

My view? You crash, you remove one sailplane permanently from the inventory..
I don't care if you get your cash back. Soaring never gets the glider back....
(well-sometimes some talented, dedicated human rebuilds one).

> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training <snip>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

There is training available. Many places don't have enough customers willing to pay for XC training coupled with many glider CFIs not having XC skills in the US. The AirSailing Camp is one good suggestion. Grabbing a ride along with Hank Nixon, Sara Arnold, John Good, Doug Jacobs, Rich at Seminole, Jason at Estrella, Burt at Marfa. Me. We all love that level of teaching.

I plan to offer my Site Selection - Visual Tools talk in the Webinar series soon. Then it will continue to be on the SSA's web site into the future.

Soaring doesn't have to be a rich man's sport. I have been fortunate to have many chances to fly gorgeous equipment. But I am teaching in 20 to 30 to 1 gliders. Either way, I planned to bring the equipment to a known safe place to land, when local and XC. And over more than 40 years, I have regrettably done a little rash along the way. Thankfully, given self discipline over impulsivity,
all the machinery still flies.

Seek training,
Cindy B
Mojave, CA

>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Tuesday, May 28, 2019 at 2:50:45 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 28 May 2019 13:31:15 -0700, Andy Blackburn wrote:
>
> > Know terrain where you are headed before you head there.
> >
> I've only flown once in the Great Basin and

> but I have one question: wouldn't exactly the same advice about landout
> planning for flights in that area also apply to all single-engine and
> light twin GA aircraft?
>

> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Of course it does.
But the airplane folks think that the engine will always run,
the the fueler kid filled the tanks,
that the wx forecast is always correct,
that ATC always tracks them,
that ATC sweeps their paths clean,
that ELT's always work,
that Search & Rescue will appear instantly after pushing a button,
that cell phones work everywhere,
that landout supply kits are not essential.
That keeping glide altitude to a flat place or a road is prudish.
(I'm being only a little tongue in cheek.)

Wait..... a road? Yep. ASEL span is only 36 feet or less,
and they fit on two lane roads. The gear print on even a light twin is
only <12 feet and fits in a lane.
If they wreck on a road, it makes it easy to find the debris field.

Typically, the suggestion is to follow the interstate highways.
Now with GPS direct, that is less often the practice.

Cindy B
Mojave, CA

[Rich Owen[_2_]]

Charles "Ben" Ethridge

Ben,

As in everything in aviation, if you use good judgement at the right time you will be fine. Your inquiries into out landings is the first step. Many on the forum have provided excellent ideas and options. There are training opportunities every year to get better in our sport and safely challenge your aviation skill set. Next week we will the Region 5 South contest in Cordele Georgia. This is a learning evolution where we review your flight each night, provide short presentations on contest rules, strategy, and information to improve the specific skills you need to fly XC safely. At Seminole-Lake gliderport in Clermont Florida we love to have pilots improve their comfort in sailplanes. We do XC and racing training. Give me a call, we will be happy to help. I’ll also come to your club to do ground school if enough pilots are interested.

Sincerely,
Rich Owen

[Charles Ethridge]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 2:17:05 AM UTC-4, CindyB wrote:
> > 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
> Yes, TOO often.
> Sometimes from poor field assessment skills, sometimes poor landing skills.
> There is training available. Many places don't have enough customers willing to pay for XC training coupled with many glider CFIs not having XC skills in the US. The AirSailing Camp is one good suggestion. Grabbing a ride along with Hank Nixon, Sara Arnold, John Good, Doug Jacobs, Rich at Seminole, Jason at Estrella, Burt at Marfa. Me. We all love that level of teaching..
> Seek training,

Thanks for the tips, Cindy. There appears to be some training available, but it is either incomplete or informal. For example, I checked out the AirSailing Camp website, but it appears to be all solo, not dual, and not specifically designed to teach landouts.

In airplanes, no student pilot is allowed to do crosscountries solo until they have proven that they can do crosscountries dual with an instructor in the airplane. As a former CFI this make sense to me for gliders as well, for pretty much the same reasons. Apparently Tom Knauff would agree.

He used to teach a 3 hour landout course in a motorglider (and maybe still does?). From his After Solo book, starting on page 121:

"We take the motorglider and fly a 150km triangle course the pilot has planned. During the flight, you will make about 10 simulated off-field landings as well as navigation skills....After the second turnpoint is reached, the student navigates along the final leg until it is obvious the home gliderport will be found. More off field landings are performed into more difficult areas."

"The typical glider pilot learns off field landings quite differently. Even if the pilot doesn't have an accident, there is no one to critique the performance and suggest different or better ways to handle each situation."

"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor glider. {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots would have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing. (Remember we begin with easy fields.)"

If there were such a course available in my area, I would be happy to pay for it. Confidence in my ability to do safe solo crosscountry would go up immensely. Without such, it just doesn't seem worth the risk of accident, at least not in this area of the country, which is the only area in which I've ever flown gliders.

Ben

[Roy B.]

"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor glider. {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots would have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing. (Remember we begin with easy fields.)"



Let's not lose sight of the fact that each one of those students likely had very limited prior experience in the 2-place motor glider being used and were likely doing one of their first motorglider landings of any type in that exercise. It should be obvious that one does not attempt an off field landing in a glider they are not fully competent to land at an airport. I don't see this "statistic" (if that is what it is) to be meaningful and it seems more designed to alarm.
ROY

[Tango Eight]

Hi Ben,

Go see Rich. He's the real deal and SLG offers a good environment (not too far from you) in which to train. You'll have to adapt the things you learn to whatever your local flying environment happens to be.

best,
Evan Ludeman

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 8:41:51 AM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge
>
> Ben,
>
> As in everything in aviation, if you use good judgement at the right time you will be fine. Your inquiries into out landings is the first step. Many on the forum have provided excellent ideas and options. There are training opportunities every year to get better in our sport and safely challenge your aviation skill set. Next week we will the Region 5 South contest in Cordele Georgia. This is a learning evolution where we review your flight each night, provide short presentations on contest rules, strategy, and information to improve the specific skills you need to fly XC safely. At Seminole-Lake gliderport in Clermont Florida we love to have pilots improve their comfort in sailplanes. We do XC and racing training. Give me a call, we will be happy to help. I’ll also come to your club to do ground school if enough pilots are interested.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?
>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

I'll add my two-bits. It depends, where you fly, what you fly and how you fly. I have a few hours under 1700hr of glider time, mostly XC, and mostly in the 1990's and early 2000's. Ninety-five percent of my flights have been out of a western mountain site, Warner Springs, Tehachapi, Lone pine, Bishop, Minden, or Truckee. Not a lot of fields in those places, but I have managed to land just once in a field, 5 times on dry lakes and I can't count the amount of time I have landed at an airport other than where I had planned. Best when you can get an aero tow home. When I started to fly a Nimbus 4, 26.5 meters of wing, I made a conscience decision to use airports as alternates, although a couple of times I did get a pretty close look at a chosen field. I know at least one former US world team member and former National champ, current top tier competitor who flies 18 meter out of TX, just switch to 21 meter who also only uses airports as alternates. The guys flying the ridges in the east have much different conditions and I understand landing out in fields is just part of eastern ridge running. In the West we are on O2 flying over tiger country and someplaces like over the Great Basin, you can be 6K AGL and in sink and not within glide of a landing spot. If you are flying a 1-26 xc, you will be outlining in all sorts of places.

[Jonathon May]

At 13:48 29 May 2019, Roy B. wrote:
>"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor
>glider.=
> {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots
>wou=
>ld have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing.
>(Reme=
>mber we begin with easy fields.)"=20
>
>
>
>Let's not lose sight of the fact that each one of those students likely
>had=
> very limited prior experience in the 2-place motor glider being used and
>w=
>ere likely doing one of their first motorglider landings of any type in
>tha=
>t exercise. It should be obvious that one does not attempt an off field
>la=
>nding in a glider they are not fully competent to land at an airport. I
>do=
>n't see this "statistic" (if that is what it is) to be meaningful and it
>se=
>ems more designed to alarm.
>ROY
>

Simulated field landings in a motor glider are not ideal.
But they are a lot better than no advance practice.
I remember my first landout,my heart was in my mouth and my pulse going
like a jack hammer.When I came to a stop I only had 1/2 a mile left in
front.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-7, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 13:48 29 May 2019, Roy B. wrote:
> >"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor
> >glider.=
> > {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots
> >wou=
> >ld have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing.
> >(Reme=
> >mber we begin with easy fields.)"=20
> >
> >
> >
> >Let's not lose sight of the fact that each one of those students likely
> >had=
> > very limited prior experience in the 2-place motor glider being used and
> >w=
> >ere likely doing one of their first motorglider landings of any type in
> >tha=
> >t exercise. It should be obvious that one does not attempt an off field
> >la=
> >nding in a glider they are not fully competent to land at an airport. I
> >do=
> >n't see this "statistic" (if that is what it is) to be meaningful and it
> >se=
> >ems more designed to alarm.
> >ROY
> >
>
> Simulated field landings in a motor glider are not ideal.
> But they are a lot better than no advance practice.
> I remember my first landout,my heart was in my mouth and my pulse going
> like a jack hammer.When I came to a stop I only had 1/2 a mile left in
> front.

My only early xc training was a couple of flights in a Grob 109. I thought it was invaluable Training!! We planned a triangle, flew it and made simulated landing on a bunch of landout spots, flying the approach to perhaps 20 ft AGL adding power and flying away. These powered flights taught me how know to think and plan safely as I started to fly my own XC flights. I have never had a high heart rate in an unplanned landing. Few years ago I did my first damage to a glider scraping the nose while landing on a somewhat dry lake, with lots of debris on roll out. Frankly I was too low when I arrived and too slow, turned final at 78 ft agl and 51 knots. Still have not had an insurance claim though, knock on wood.

[Dan Marotta]

On 5/29/2019 6:57 AM, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> "Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor glider. {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots would have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing. (Remember we begin with easy fields.)"

Really?Â* Four hundred actual off field landings?Â* Or low approaches with
the engine running?Â* There's a big difference (unless the engine quits
during the go-around).

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

As a former CFI-G......as well as later alomg SEL student.....best ANY flight instructor can do is.....
Train to think things out.
Practice in controlled situations.
Then.....(when student is at least sorta ready), drop the boom on them and see if they keep thinking. Goal is.....keep flying until everything stops. Hopefully you made decent decisions.
Stress (the whole, "drop the boom on them.....in a controlled situation......which NEVER covers all situations....") and see if they sorta keep thinking and adjusting.

Yes, I disagreed with a SEL CFI during simulated power loss. I picked a place, he gave me power back at about 200' AGL.
We discussed.
My comment, "how many times have you landed off an airport"?
I had many, had decent reasons for my field selection.


Go back to my earlier posts.......
Pick a place to land at home field EVERY time.....do it!
Try opposite patterns if traffic allows.
Ignore altimeter....basically useless in "Farmer Browns back forty" where ground level is unknown....what does it look like, what does it feel like (I unknowingly landed with full water in a ASW-20.....listed speeds to fly dry would have wrecked the ship....but it felt wrong....I flew faster until it felt right...) how to make better?

As stated, peeps trash ships at home......definition of XC....."beyond glide of airport"..... so 2 miles out but low.....you're XC.....

This is a sport that can be major fun......flying is unforgiving......gravity (or as I say, "no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks....") ALWAYS wins eventually....

Train, plan, think.......have fun.....

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 29 May 2019 08:51:26 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Really?Â* Four hundred actual off field landings?Â* Or low approaches with
> the engine running?Â* There's a big difference (unless the engine quits
> during the go-around).
>
UK rules: no solo XC without a cross country endorsement on your bronze
badge, so the Bronze is the first prerequisite. This requires 50 solo
flights of which at least two must be soaring flights of 30 mins or
longer, two written papers + flying tests.

XC endorsement requires instructed flights covering navigation, field
selection and field landings plus a 1 hour and a two hour soaring flight.
In my club we do everything except the two soaring flights in a Scheibe
SF-25 TMG flown normally for navication and field selection exercises
and with enough power on to approximate a 30:1 glide for the landing
practise - the student picks the field, flys the circuit, base and finals
and the instructor takes over and climbs away at around 100 ft or so as
soon as its obvious the is well placed in the field and (obviously) takes
over somewhat earlier if the student has got it wrong. All three
exercises are repeated until both instructor and student are happy.

FWIW in my club new solo pilots are encouraged to start work on their
Bronze as soon as they've converted to an SZD Junior. We have two,
primarily for early solo flying. The Junior pilots are also encouraged to
work on their two Bronze duration flights plus the Silver height and
duration tasks as part of their pre-Bronze flying because all these can
be done while staying local to our field.

Like all my peers, I'd done the Bronze duration flights as well as Silver
height and duration before I got the Bronze XC Endorsement and then flew
Silver Distance in a Junior on the next day that the duty instructor
thought conditions were suitable. This all happened within two weeks of
me completing the field landing exercises, so they were reinforced nicely
because the task I was set was to fly to another gliding club 60km away,
which I'd never previously seen, and land there.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[George Haeh]

I know one club where a landout is required before solo. The field happens to be adjacent and the farmer leaves a landing lane when he bales hay.

I was working on my second duration flight for my bronze badge when the radio announced a runway change. Not too long after, the quarry thermals packed it in and I belatedly realized I was now downwind of the field. But there were lots of freshly seeded long fields with furrows crosswind as I headed back. Then I found a field with furrows into the wind and worked out a landing lane clear of slope, power lines and tree. Continued looking for a thermal at high key until at circuit height and landed.

A private owner squeaked it back over the woods about the same time and admitted he would have been wiser to have landed out.

There's a significant number of gliders crunched in poor terrain near the home field after they had passed over landable fields. Sadder are the cases where the pilot spins in making a dodgy approach at the home field after arriving low.

[2G]

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.
>
> I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.
>
> The question has two parts:
>
> 1. Are off-airport landouts common?
>
> I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?
>
> The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.
>
> 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
>
> The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.
>
> Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):
>
> "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"
>
> But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?
>
> Charles "Ben" Ethridge

David Lessnick's excellent webinar revealed two glaring weaknesses:
1. Lessnick had only one actual off-airport landing prior to going to flying in tiger country (eastern Nevada).
2. He passed up a perfectly good dry lake bed (the gold standard for off-airport landings in this country) to land on the worst possible choice: a road.

People need to get plenty of experience landing off-airport prior to heading into tiger country because they simply don't know how they will react when confronted with this situation.

As already mentioned, you need to go scout out these fields IN ADVANCE; fields that look great from 5kft+ will look totally different from the ground.

I also know of fatalities involving gliders that attempted to (unsuccessfully) glide into an airport (as recommended in this thread) rather than landing on a perfectly safe field that they passed by.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

That sounds like great preparation for cross country for club members
using club equipment.Â* Private owners, on the other hand, have much more
flexibility to explore on their own and, possibly, to break their
ships.Â* I was fortunate in that another club member with the same type
of glider took me by the hand and led me around a cross country course.Â*
Then it was a matter of going further away and testing my new found skills.

And yes, I landed out a few times.

On 5/29/2019 3:00 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2019 08:51:26 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> Really?Â* Four hundred actual off field landings?Â* Or low approaches with
>> the engine running?Â* There's a big difference (unless the engine quits
>> during the go-around).
>>
> UK rules: no solo XC without a cross country endorsement on your bronze
> badge, so the Bronze is the first prerequisite. This requires 50 solo
> flights of which at least two must be soaring flights of 30 mins or
> longer, two written papers + flying tests.
>
> XC endorsement requires instructed flights covering navigation, field
> selection and field landings plus a 1 hour and a two hour soaring flight.
> In my club we do everything except the two soaring flights in a Scheibe
> SF-25 TMG flown normally for navication and field selection exercises
> and with enough power on to approximate a 30:1 glide for the landing
> practise - the student picks the field, flys the circuit, base and finals
> and the instructor takes over and climbs away at around 100 ft or so as
> soon as its obvious the is well placed in the field and (obviously) takes
> over somewhat earlier if the student has got it wrong. All three
> exercises are repeated until both instructor and student are happy.
>
> FWIW in my club new solo pilots are encouraged to start work on their
> Bronze as soon as they've converted to an SZD Junior. We have two,
> primarily for early solo flying. The Junior pilots are also encouraged to
> work on their two Bronze duration flights plus the Silver height and
> duration tasks as part of their pre-Bronze flying because all these can
> be done while staying local to our field.
>
> Like all my peers, I'd done the Bronze duration flights as well as Silver
> height and duration before I got the Bronze XC Endorsement and then flew
> Silver Distance in a Junior on the next day that the duty instructor
> thought conditions were suitable. This all happened within two weeks of
> me completing the field landing exercises, so they were reinforced nicely
> because the task I was set was to fly to another gliding club 60km away,
> which I'd never previously seen, and land there.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Ramy[_2_]]

Lots of great answers, so no much for me to add, and I’ll probably repeat some of what was already said.
Known airports are of course the safest option, but if you stick to only known airports, you will significantly handicap yourself and will actually land out more often.
Known fields are somewhat less safe since the field condition changes through the season, but are usually good options.
Unknown but good looking fields are almost as safe if you know what to look for, especially power lines, fences, slope, surface type etc.
The last in the list are unknown fields which looks like they will probably be landable, with risk of ground loop. These could be sonsidered only when the likelihood of landout is low (chances of finding lift are very high). As a rule of thumb, the less the chances to find lift the more conservative your options should be.

In David’s case, he found himself very low over unlandable terrain (4WD dirt roads in the mountains are unlandable) with no plan B, and nearly zero chance to find lift, and had to crash land. He now owns a glider with an FES :)

In 20 years of aggressive XC soaring I have well over hundred landouts, but less than 10 in fields, and less than 5 in unknowns fields. The worst damage I had was a gear collapse in a rough field (in an LS4 which are notorious for gear collapse) and very recently some belly scratches due to landing in a plowed field.
Well there was that winnemucca dry lake landing which wasn’t completely dry, but this is another story for another time, and over 20 years ago so don’t count, but yeah, beware of dry lakes which may not be dry....

Ramy

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 29 May 2019 21:13:38 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> That sounds like great preparation for cross country for club members
> using club equipment.
>
That's BGA rules I was quoting, so applies to all gliding operations in
the UK, with added stuff showing how my club implements them.

All civilian gliding activity I'm aware of is club-based and, since all
civilian gliding clubs clubs are BGA clubs, it follows that the BGA
Bronze training syllibus and requirements for XC covers all civilian
gliding.

AFAIK only other gliding activity in the UK is handled by the RAFGSA
clubs, and the RAF's Air Training Corps, which gives air experience
flying and training to solo, but no XC experience.

> I was fortunate in that another club member with the same type
> of glider took me by the hand and led me around a cross country course.
> Then it was a matter of going further away and testing my new found
> skills.
>
Our instructors do that fairly regularly - they're all XC pilots and will
be miles away if its a soarable day and they're not rostered to instruct.
Our ASK-21s are used on good days to take pre-solo students on XC flights
and we recently bought a Perkoz with exactly that sort of training in
mind.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Charles Ethridge]

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 4:17:59 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> In 20 years of aggressive XC soaring I have well over hundred landouts, but less than 10 in fields, and less than 5 in unknowns fields. The worst damage I had was a gear collapse in a rough field (in an LS4 which are notorious for gear collapse) and very recently some belly scratches due to landing in a plowed field.
> Well there was that winnemucca dry lake landing which wasn’t completely dry, but this is another story for another time, and over 20 years ago so don’t count, but yeah, beware of dry lakes which may not be dry...
>
> Ramy

Ramy (et al): How did you get your INITIAL crosscountry/landout training? Was it formal, in-flight and required before doing your first crosscountry, like Martin Gregorie details above? or did you mostly just figure it out yourself as you went along, and stayed lucky? or something in between those two extremes, like what CindyB says about AirSailing Camp? (Note that I don't consider formal, required in-flight landout training to be "extreme", just apparently uncommon in the USA).

When I was listening to David Lessnick's great webinar, I kept thinking "There, but for the grace of God, go I." David seems like an intelligent, thoughtful, trainable guy, who just got unlucky. He was very brave to do that webinar. It is what prompted me to start this post.

Ben

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 30 May 2019 10:27:22 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> That's BGA rules I was quoting, so applies to all gliding operations in
> the UK, with added stuff showing how my club implements them.
>
I should have added that, since EASA is the overall controlling body for
aviation in Europe and the European Gliding Union, among its other
activities, coordinates communication between national gliding
associations and EASA, its very likely that similar requirements apply to
all XC glider flying in all European countries.

I can't say more than that because The only places I've flown (apart from
here, NZ and the USA) are Germany and Austria, where the way things are
done felt very familiar: when I rocked up at the Wasserkuppe the other
year I got sent out for a check-ride and site familiarisation in an
ASK-21 and was then sent solo in an ASK-23 - just what I'd expect if I
visited a UK or NZ club without taking my own glider there.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[BobW]

On 5/30/2019 4:37 AM, Charles Ethridge wrote:
<Snip...>
>
> Ramy (et al): How did you get your INITIAL crosscountry/landout training?
> Was it formal, in-flight and required before doing your first crosscountry,
> like Martin Gregorie details above? or did you mostly just figure it out
> yourself as you went along, and stayed lucky? or something in between those
> two extremes, like what CindyB says about AirSailing Camp? (Note that I
> don't consider formal, required in-flight landout training to be "extreme",
> just apparently uncommon in the USA).

Since my jury dooty call got canceled...

My initial XC/landout training consisted of my instructor covering the basics
(i.e. "How not to be stupid...") when fearful-young-me asked about off-field
landings (this was in the Alleghenies, Cumberland, MD). And the weekend before
the 3 of us (him/me/fellow-newbie/now-1/3-owners of instructor's formerly
home-built 1-26) I was sufficiently un-stupid to (dismayedly/din-wanna)
land-out maybe 2 air miles from the gliderport. A week later, fellow newbie
1/3-owner and I retrieved instructor from a plowed field on a contest
flight...and soon learned it was his *first* (!).

When I (somewhat heatedly) challenged him on his qualifications for "teaching
me the basics" (which worked just fine, in a river-bottom pasture), he simply
laughed and asked, "What did you need to know that you didn't know?" He had a
point...

>
> When I was listening to David Lessnick's great webinar, I kept thinking
> "There, but for the grace of God, go I." David seems like an intelligent,
> thoughtful, trainable guy, who just got unlucky. He was very brave to do
> that webinar. It is what prompted me to start this post.
>
> Ben

Inre your thought, that's what learning from others' mistakes is all about!!!
:-) You appear to be on a sensible track...

Have fun and best of luck!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Dan Marotta]

Thirty-odd years ago a friend told me:Â* "Land in dirt, you won't get
hurt."Â* The idea being that a plowed farm field will most likely not
have rocks, holes, etc.Â* "Dry lakes" on the other hand, not so much
unless you're sure of the surface condition.Â* Refer back to the Soaring
calendar cover shot a couple of years back for the JS-1 bogged down on
the "dry lake".Â* That was about 15-20 miles south of Moriarty and
there's a good dirt/gravel runway within about 5 miles of that.

Flying the Stemme, I personally have to limit my XC flying to having a
paved runway within gliding distance at all times.Â* Sure I could land in
a lot of places safely, but I would not attempt (or at least would not
want) to take off from them.Â* The tips of the $10K carbon prop are too
close to the ground to risk gravel damage and there's no option to air
tow.Â* Oh yeah...Â* I don't have a trailer.

On 5/30/2019 2:17 AM, Ramy wrote:
> Lots of great answers, so no much for me to add, and I’ll probably repeat some of what was already said.
> Known airports are of course the safest option, but if you stick to only known airports, you will significantly handicap yourself and will actually land out more often.
> Known fields are somewhat less safe since the field condition changes through the season, but are usually good options.
> Unknown but good looking fields are almost as safe if you know what to look for, especially power lines, fences, slope, surface type etc.
> The last in the list are unknown fields which looks like they will probably be landable, with risk of ground loop. These could be sonsidered only when the likelihood of landout is low (chances of finding lift are very high). As a rule of thumb, the less the chances to find lift the more conservative your options should be.
>
> In David’s case, he found himself very low over unlandable terrain (4WD dirt roads in the mountains are unlandable) with no plan B, and nearly zero chance to find lift, and had to crash land. He now owns a glider with an FES :)
>
> In 20 years of aggressive XC soaring I have well over hundred landouts, but less than 10 in fields, and less than 5 in unknowns fields. The worst damage I had was a gear collapse in a rough field (in an LS4 which are notorious for gear collapse) and very recently some belly scratches due to landing in a plowed field.
> Well there was that winnemucca dry lake landing which wasn’t completely dry, but this is another story for another time, and over 20 years ago so don’t count, but yeah, beware of dry lakes which may not be dry...
>
> Ramy
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Sadly it's not the same in the USA.Â* I only personally know one CFI-G
who regularly flies XC and he doesn't instruct.

On 5/30/2019 4:27 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2019 21:13:38 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> Tha<snip>
>>
> Our instructors do that fairly regularly - they're all XC pilots and will
> be miles away if its a soarable day and they're not rostered to instruct.
> Our ASK-21s are used on good days to take pre-solo students on XC flights
> and we recently bought a Perkoz with exactly that sort of training in
> mind.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Starting a new thread:Â* Your First Land Out

On 5/30/2019 4:37 AM, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 4:17:59 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
>> In 20 years of aggressive XC soaring I have well over hundred landouts, but less than 10 in fields, and less than 5 in unknowns fields. The worst damage I had was a gear collapse in a rough field (in an LS4 which are notorious for gear collapse) and very recently some belly scratches due to landing in a plowed field.
>> Well there was that winnemucca dry lake landing which wasn’t completely dry, but this is another story for another time, and over 20 years ago so don’t count, but yeah, beware of dry lakes which may not be dry...
>>
>> Ramy
> Ramy (et al): How did you get your INITIAL crosscountry/landout training? Was it formal, in-flight and required before doing your first crosscountry, like Martin Gregorie details above? or did you mostly just figure it out yourself as you went along, and stayed lucky? or something in between those two extremes, like what CindyB says about AirSailing Camp? (Note that I don't consider formal, required in-flight landout training to be "extreme", just apparently uncommon in the USA).
>
> When I was listening to David Lessnick's great webinar, I kept thinking "There, but for the grace of God, go I." David seems like an intelligent, thoughtful, trainable guy, who just got unlucky. He was very brave to do that webinar. It is what prompted me to start this post.
>
> Ben

--
Dan, 5J

[Ramy[_2_]]

Ben, I didn’t have any formal XC and landouts training at the time. I read books (Reichman) and participated in a couple unofficial lead and follow type flying but my main XC training was the prior 15 years of flying XC in hang gliders, so flying XC and landing out felt natural to me from day one when I started flying gliders.

Ramy

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 30 May 2019 08:23:56 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Sadly it's not the same in the USA.Â* I only personally know one CFI-G
> who regularly flies XC and he doesn't instruct.
>
Yes, I know its quite different in the USA. About the nearest I've found
to the UK style of club was a day I spent at Avenal back in 2001, which
was a great experience, including getting airborne there for my only
flight in a 2-33 - I'd love to have a flight in a 1-26. Avenal is still
on my list of places to go, but I haven't crossed the pond since 2003
(The Maxmen Free Flight comp at Lost Hills in February and then Kitty
Hawk in December).

Elmira also sounds as it it may have a similar atmosphere.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[2G]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 8:13:42 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> That sounds like great preparation for cross country for club members
> using club equipment.Â* Private owners, on the other hand, have much more
> flexibility to explore on their own and, possibly, to break their
> ships.Â* I was fortunate in that another club member with the same type
> of glider took me by the hand and led me around a cross country course.Â*
> Then it was a matter of going further away and testing my new found skills.
>
> And yes, I landed out a few times.
>
> On 5/29/2019 3:00 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Wed, 29 May 2019 08:51:26 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >
> >> Really?Â* Four hundred actual off field landings?Â* Or low approaches with
> >> the engine running?Â* There's a big difference (unless the engine quits
> >> during the go-around).
> >>
> > UK rules: no solo XC without a cross country endorsement on your bronze
> > badge, so the Bronze is the first prerequisite. This requires 50 solo
> > flights of which at least two must be soaring flights of 30 mins or
> > longer, two written papers + flying tests.
> >
> > XC endorsement requires instructed flights covering navigation, field
> > selection and field landings plus a 1 hour and a two hour soaring flight.

[Charles Ethridge]

Thanks for your comments everyone!

I'm hoping that SSA (via David Lessnick and the gang) will do a webinar on this subject.

I will also speak with Rich Owens (per your suggestions) up at Seminole Lake Gliderport and hopefully get some inflight dual XC instruction with him. I've taken training there before and it's only a few hours drive from here.

Ben

[George Haeh]

The top most important skill is being able to think for yourself.

I stay OFF the radio until landed.

Last year at a regional, well provincial, contest the downwind drift proved too much for a certain thick headed pilot in his 27 who landed in the same quadrant as the club - much too visible to the flightline peanut gallery.

After landing the radio went nuts and a towplane made a low pass - fortunately after I had stopped, but made it hard to relieve myself in peace.

After I finished my business, I got on the radio to let them know that I would phone in after writing down the GPS on my landing card.