The Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association Needs Your Help!

[[email protected]]

M-ASA Needs Your Help

Bob Jackson
1/18/2005

Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association (M-ASA) Needs Your Help

Last week the Airport Manager at Frederick Municipal Airport (FDK)
closed down the turf strip which has been used by M-ASA for the past 40
years. The claim is that the grass strip does not meet FAA standards,
but thus far there is no clear cut definition of those standards. Bob
Jackson, President of M-ASA would appreciate hearing from the SSA
Membership about any other locations around the country where there is
a turf runway parallel and adjacent to a paved runway. Currently,
similar situations are known to exist at Elmira, NY, Poughkeepsie, NY,
and Dansville, VA. Bob feels that if he could learn more about these
and similar situations, he could then follow up to determine if the
circumstances are similar and, if so, what sort of arrangement they
have with the FAA. In addition, these examples will help when M-ASA
officials have meetings with the Airport Commission, the City, and the
FAA. Please e-mail your comments to or phone
717-642-9886. Thanks for your help.

(You may also respond through the thread. I'll make sure relevant
information makes it to Bob. M-ASA's approximately 170 members operate
out of facilities at FDK and a club-owned airport in Fairfield, PA
(W73). Between the two airports, we maintain a fleet of approximately
100 club and privately owned aircraft.)

[Mark James Boyd]

Jeez, Bob, this is terrible news.

How about getting membership dues from all 170 members and
presenting AOPA with a big check to sign them up all
at once?

Beyond that, Salinas (SNS) has a turf strip used for cropdusters.
I'll look into it...


In article om>,
> wrote:
>M-ASA Needs Your Help
>
>Bob Jackson
>1/18/2005
>
>Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association (M-ASA) Needs Your Help
>
>Last week the Airport Manager at Frederick Municipal Airport (FDK)
>closed down the turf strip which has been used by M-ASA for the past 40
>years. The claim is that the grass strip does not meet FAA standards,
>but thus far there is no clear cut definition of those standards. Bob
>Jackson, President of M-ASA would appreciate hearing from the SSA
>Membership about any other locations around the country where there is
>a turf runway parallel and adjacent to a paved runway. Currently,
>similar situations are known to exist at Elmira, NY, Poughkeepsie, NY,
>and Dansville, VA. Bob feels that if he could learn more about these
>and similar situations, he could then follow up to determine if the
>circumstances are similar and, if so, what sort of arrangement they
>have with the FAA. In addition, these examples will help when M-ASA
>officials have meetings with the Airport Commission, the City, and the
>FAA. Please e-mail your comments to or phone
>717-642-9886. Thanks for your help.
>
>(You may also respond through the thread. I'll make sure relevant
>information makes it to Bob. M-ASA's approximately 170 members operate
>out of facilities at FDK and a club-owned airport in Fairfield, PA
>(W73). Between the two airports, we maintain a fleet of approximately
>100 club and privately owned aircraft.)
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[F.L. Whiteley]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> M-ASA Needs Your Help
>
> Bob Jackson
> 1/18/2005
>
> Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association (M-ASA) Needs Your Help
>
> Last week the Airport Manager at Frederick Municipal Airport (FDK)
> closed down the turf strip which has been used by M-ASA for the past 40
> years. The claim is that the grass strip does not meet FAA standards,
> but thus far there is no clear cut definition of those standards. Bob
> Jackson, President of M-ASA would appreciate hearing from the SSA
> Membership about any other locations around the country where there is
> a turf runway parallel and adjacent to a paved runway. Currently,
> similar situations are known to exist at Elmira, NY, Poughkeepsie, NY,
> and Dansville, VA. Bob feels that if he could learn more about these
> and similar situations, he could then follow up to determine if the
> circumstances are similar and, if so, what sort of arrangement they
> have with the FAA. In addition, these examples will help when M-ASA
> officials have meetings with the Airport Commission, the City, and the
> FAA. Please e-mail your comments to or phone
> 717-642-9886. Thanks for your help.
>
> (You may also respond through the thread. I'll make sure relevant
> information makes it to Bob. M-ASA's approximately 170 members operate
> out of facilities at FDK and a club-owned airport in Fairfield, PA
> (W73). Between the two airports, we maintain a fleet of approximately
> 100 club and privately owned aircraft.)
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59829-2005Jan8.html

I really hate to say it, but they are setting the tone and lobbying for the
FAA funds to change the operational profile of this airport. In the long
run you may have already lost this battle and when they get the longer
runway and tower they may eventually pull the safety card and glider
operations will no longer be welcomed. It appears it's already inconvenient
to M-ASA not to operate from the turf strip. So will it become such a
nuisance that your members won't want to operate there anyway? Or it that
the case already? How do glider operations fit into the master plan?
Clearly continued use of the turf strip wasn't in it. Has M-ASA ever
participated on the airport board? These are often voluntarily civic
positions.

It doesn't appear the decision was taken in a vacuum, but this is the normal
airport manager on a career path climb. I've seen it locally. We don't
even have a tower and the local airport manager told the CAP glider ops no.
They asked permission. IMVHO they should have shown up, hooked up and towed
away. (Greeley/Weld County Airport) We don't have the tower yet, but we
have a new 10000ft runway and the airport manager's been lobbying for FAA
tower funds for three years. Part of the improvement was to shut down the
short UL runway.

Another local airport has built up so much that I personally consider
continued operation of the jump school to be hazardous. A lot of the open
space is now hangars, and residential and industrial developmen(Vance Brand,
Longmont).

A small downtown airport that we've used occassionally for rides and our
maintainers operate out of is going away completely as the land values now
out weigh its value as an airport. (Fort Collins Downtown) A small group is
trying to find a spot to open a new airport in an area where organized
property owners recently shot down efforts to build a bypass road. Think an
airport will fly there?

I believe I also heard recently that the manager of another local airport
(Loveland-Fort Collins) had shut down use of the taxiway/'runway' that the
ultralights had been using.

Where will you get the best long term results for your efforts?

Good luck,

Frank Whiteley

[Eric Greenwell]

The Cascade Soaring Society operates a parallel turf runway at Pangborn
Airport in Wenatchee, WA.

http://www.nwinternet.com/~blanikam/css/

One of the members (and a CFIG) is Arnie Clarke is/was the airport
manager, so they've had excellent support for the club and it's
operations over the last 20 years. If Frank's right about the goal of
the manager at your airport, someone like Arnie may be able to give you
useful insight into the situation and how to deal with it.


F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>M-ASA Needs Your Help
>>
>>Bob Jackson
>>1/18/2005
>>
>>Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association (M-ASA) Needs Your Help
>>
>>Last week the Airport Manager at Frederick Municipal Airport (FDK)
>>closed down the turf strip which has been used by M-ASA for the past 40
>>years. The claim is that the grass strip does not meet FAA standards,

snip

> I really hate to say it, but they are setting the tone and lobbying for the
> FAA funds to change the operational profile of this airport. In the long
> run you may have already lost this battle and when they get the longer
> runway and tower they may eventually pull the safety card and glider
> operations will no longer be welcomed. It appears it's already inconvenient

snip

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Jeffrey Banks]

Bob,



There are gravel/ski strips next to many runways here in Alaska. The gravel
and asphalt are considered the same runway so everyone still has to sequence
in the usual way.



Jeff Banks

Alaska Mountain Soaring Association

[Lorry]

Jeffrey Banks wrote:
> Bob,
>
>
>
> There are gravel/ski strips next to many runways here in Alaska. The
gravel
> and asphalt are considered the same runway so everyone still has to
sequence
> in the usual way.
>
>
>
> Jeff Banks
>
> Alaska Mountain Soaring Association

[Lorry]

Hi Bob,

I believe that the club at Adrian, Mi still uses grass runnways that
parallel runway 5/23. Good Luck!

Lorry Charchian

[Bruce]

Hi Bob

Sorry to hear you are being harassed.

Visited your club in 2003 with Kolie. Did not get to fly, although we met you
and played nicely with the toys. What I saw was very safe , and certainly not
inconveniencing the power pilots.Not sure what the airport manager's leeway is
in the USA, but it sounds too much like a dictatorship for me. (or at least a
case of extreme over regulation with deficient oversight of the operational
application of regulations)

With this kind of attitude it is no wonder that the news groups are full of the
decline of soaring , inconvenience and cost of soaring.

We are fortunate to have very little "control" over our recreational airfields,
pilots are expected to know the regulations and act sensibly. Funny part is they
generally do. Air traffic control, and the airport management is helpful
whenever possible. They seem to have the strange view that they are there to
provide a service to the community, rather than that the community is there to
pay their salary, be abused and satisfy their whims. Given the location + Camp
David airspace restrictions, I assume FDK is not a great candidate as a regional
hub. The GA ramp did not look that active that the airport would want to lose
70-80 aircraft, and all their related activity.

For what it is worth - the operations I am familiar with, where there are
parallel turf and tar, differentiate on distance between centerline from the tar
runway. If the verge of the turf is over 40m from the centerline of the tar it
is a separate runway (e.g. 31L and 31R) if less they are regarded as one strip,
with pilots exercising their judgment as to what part of the surface is
appropriate for their use. If the tar runway has boundary lights, then the turf
strip must be > 40m separation.

My recollection of MASA is of a well organised operation that any GA airfield in
my part of the world would work hard to attract and retain. Apparently your
airport manger is less ambitious, or too limited to appreciate that.

One thought, gliding in the USA is regulated very closely by the FAA. That means
you work under a fairly different regime from us in South Africa. However, to
the best of my knowledge a glider is given the same rights and responsibilities
as a power aircraft, if you choose to operate as an aircraft. I am sure you
could arrange enough people to file flight plans to fly circuits from the tar.
If you had the pawnee doing a planned departure and landing once every ten
minutes, on the main runway, all day, THAT could be inconvenient. Would be an
excellent way to get everyone current after winter, and would certainly generate
some workload. As a last resort you could use the rules to exercise your
privileges.

[Fred]

Bad news, Bob. Hope you can sort this out. Central Ohio Soaring
Association (COSA), flying out of Marion, Ohio (MNN) uses turf strips
beside hard surface. They also use the hard surface when the turf is
too wet or snow-covered. MNN is not a very busy A/P (yet), so this is
not a particular problem.
Fred LaSor
Athens, OH/Alexandria, VA

[Roy Bourgeois]

I have had a little experience with this issue (both as a lawyer and as a
former SSA Director) and would be happy to help. There are many glider
operations that run on parallel turf or gravel strips next to paved
runways. Examples of big operations doing so include GBSC at Sterling
Massachusetts, and all of the several glider operations at Boulder
Colorado. Many operations land on the grass "islands" between the taxiway
and runways.

The "trick" here is to NOT designate or claim the turf or grass strip as a
separate runway from the paved portion - if you do that you run afoul of
an obscure FAA airport dimensional requirement that mandates minimum
spacing between "parallel runways" (500' as I recall). Rather, you
position should be that it's all the same runway - except that one side of
it is not paved. That is the approach that the FAA Airports people have
used when these operations have been questioned. There is no FAR that
requires a pilot to "use" a paved runway - simply because on is there. The
issue is simply one of airport dimensions.

Sadly - this may be more a "local airport political" issue - but let me
know if I can help.

Good luck

Roy A. Bourgeois, President
Greater Boston Soaring Club

[Tony Verhulst]

> The "trick" here is to NOT designate or claim the turf or grass strip as a
> separate runway from the paved portion - if you do that you run afoul of
> an obscure FAA airport dimensional requirement that mandates minimum
> spacing between "parallel runways" (500' as I recall). Rather, you
> position should be that it's all the same runway - except that one side of
> it is not paved.

Yes, that's what we do at Nashua, NH (KASH). We operate some tail
draggers on the grass adjacent to the 5000 ft paved rwy. The tower
treats both as a single rwy for spacing purposes. I love it when they
clear me for the grass and tell me that it's at my own risk. Like,
landing on the pavement isn't either :-).

Tony V.

[[email protected]]

Many thanks to all who have participated in this thread. I have
forwarded the thread in whole and private email response to Bob. I
suspect he'll be in touch with a few of you for more information during
the next few weeks.

Again, Thanks.

Chris O'Callaghan (OC)
Task Day Chair, Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association.

wrote:
> M-ASA Needs Your Help
>
> Bob Jackson
> 1/18/2005
>
> Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association (M-ASA) Needs Your Help
>
> Last week the Airport Manager at Frederick Municipal Airport (FDK)
> closed down the turf strip which has been used by M-ASA for the past
40
> years. The claim is that the grass strip does not meet FAA standards,
> but thus far there is no clear cut definition of those standards. Bob
> Jackson, President of M-ASA would appreciate hearing from the SSA
> Membership about any other locations around the country where there
is
> a turf runway parallel and adjacent to a paved runway. Currently,
> similar situations are known to exist at Elmira, NY, Poughkeepsie,
NY,
> and Dansville, VA. Bob feels that if he could learn more about these
> and similar situations, he could then follow up to determine if the
> circumstances are similar and, if so, what sort of arrangement they
> have with the FAA. In addition, these examples will help when M-ASA
> officials have meetings with the Airport Commission, the City, and
the
> FAA. Please e-mail your comments to or phone
> 717-642-9886. Thanks for your help.
>
> (You may also respond through the thread. I'll make sure relevant
> information makes it to Bob. M-ASA's approximately 170 members
operate
> out of facilities at FDK and a club-owned airport in Fairfield, PA
> (W73). Between the two airports, we maintain a fleet of approximately
> 100 club and privately owned aircraft.)

[Al Eddie]

The Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association.

What a wonderful concept...

Would that be Bermuda? The Azores? Madiera? Canaries?

;-)

[Papa3]

Chris,

Practically every soaring site in Region II that I can think of fits
this description:

- Blairstown NJ (1N7)
- Middletown NY
- Kutztown PA
- New Garden PA
- Forrestal NJ (no longer an airport)

For what it's worth, there are several other "interesting"
configurations involving intersecting runways, overlapping approaches,
etc. If there's a "standard", I sure haven't seen it.
Erik Mann
SSA Governor NJ