One-man rigging aids - is the electric up/down control worth it?

[Paul Kaye]

My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.

Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!

Thanks in advance.

[Paul Kaye]

Oh - the glider is an LS8 and it's in a Cobra trailer, if that helps.

[[email protected]]

My homemade one has a manual tongue jack incorporated...shouldn't cost a tenth of that.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!

For your LS-8, electric will speed things up a bit.
Because the wings aren't that heavy, its not really necessary like big gliders.

Put the first wing in, while you're at the root adjust height
until just right, then go put wing-stand under tip.
If you're experienced rigging the ship you can do this by feel at tip.
Less experienced, electric will save a trip or two out to the rigger.
Put the second wing in, and adjust until holes are perfectly lined up.
If you're experienced and the wing height is already close,
you can do this by adjusting the fuselage height with the cobra fuselage jack.
Less experienced and needing bigger adjustment, electric helps a lot.

Hope that helps!
Best Regards, Dave (previous owner of 4 different self-rigger styles,
instigator/contributor for IMI electric design)

[jfitch]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 7:44:34 AM UTC-7, Paul Kaye wrote:
> My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
>
> Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
>
> Thanks in advance.

The electric jack is a convenience, but has downside as well. With practice, and especially if rigging in the same place several times, you can get the height set and leave it alone. The electric sideways adjustment is actually more useful. I have both on my Cobra rig.

For height, if you are close simply use the fuselage ramp jack to adjust fuselage height instead of adjusting wing height. You are right there and can see what you are doing and how much.

The downside of electric is it must be kept charged, and it adds significant weight to the one man rig dolly. On the Cobra, it's almost a tossup whether the dolly or the wing is harder to lift out of the trailer.

[Paul Kaye]

On Sunday, 2 June 2019 16:22:03 UTC+1, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
>
> For your LS-8, electric will speed things up a bit.
> Because the wings aren't that heavy, its not really necessary like big gliders.
>
> Put the first wing in, while you're at the root adjust height
> until just right, then go put wing-stand under tip.
> If you're experienced rigging the ship you can do this by feel at tip.
> Less experienced, electric will save a trip or two out to the rigger.
> Put the second wing in, and adjust until holes are perfectly lined up.
> If you're experienced and the wing height is already close,
> you can do this by adjusting the fuselage height with the cobra fuselage jack.
> Less experienced and needing bigger adjustment, electric helps a lot.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Best Regards, Dave (previous owner of 4 different self-rigger styles,
> instigator/contributor for IMI electric design)

Thanks for the quick reply Dave. I'm pretty experienced in rigging and de-rigging LS gliders and reckon with someone who knows what they're doing on the tips I can get the main panels on in just a few minutes.

I thinking that if I get a manual rigger and normally use it in the same place then I can probably get the rigger setup to the right height without the need to fiddle with it each time. And as you say, I can use the jack on the ramp for height adjustment too. So, I'm leaning to the manual version - €1500 is a bot crazy really!

[Paul Kaye]

On Sunday, 2 June 2019 16:27:04 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 7:44:34 AM UTC-7, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
> >
> > Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> The electric jack is a convenience, but has downside as well. With practice, and especially if rigging in the same place several times, you can get the height set and leave it alone. The electric sideways adjustment is actually more useful. I have both on my Cobra rig.
>
> For height, if you are close simply use the fuselage ramp jack to adjust fuselage height instead of adjusting wing height. You are right there and can see what you are doing and how much.
>
> The downside of electric is it must be kept charged, and it adds significant weight to the one man rig dolly. On the Cobra, it's almost a tossup whether the dolly or the wing is harder to lift out of the trailer.

It's funny you mention the weight of the dolly. I did my back in many years ago helping someone rig their Lak 12. It wasn't the wing-panel that caused the issue - it was dreadful one-man rigger he had acquired that weighed an absolute ton!

[Paul Kaye]

On Sunday, 2 June 2019 16:20:36 UTC+1, wrote:
> My homemade one has a manual tongue jack incorporated...shouldn't cost a tenth of that.

Do you have any pictures? I've not got extensive workshop facilities but I'm not averse to a bit of DIY. I don't have any welding equipment (or skills!) so that might be a challenge.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:29:07 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> Thanks for the quick reply Dave.

No problem. Note the electric isn't that much heavier;
IMI doesn't use lead-acid batteries like some older electric units, and
frame is all aluminum - it's quite nice (though non-electric is certainly lighter)
Regarding battery charging: In case of oops, best to have a long
lead on the electric rigger, with the same connector as your ship's
battery. That way you can use ship's battery when you forget ;-)

Always using same height on rigger works great if you always rig on a
nice even surface, however...

See ya, Dave

[Steve Bralla]

What happens when you are in the middle of rigging with no one else around and the battery dies? Does the battery have the same connectors as your glider battery?

Steve

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:34:47 AM UTC-4, Steve Bralla wrote:
> What happens when you are in the middle of rigging with no one else
> around and the battery dies?
> Does the battery have the same connectors as your glider battery?

See above ;-)

[Dan Marotta]

I've rigged my Mosquito with nothing at all (never de-rigged it that
way) and there are videos online to show you how.Â* But that's not what
you asked.

My take is that it's nice, but not worth the extra cost.Â* With my
LAK-17a (many years later), I had a home made rigging tool that was
manually adjustable for height and fore/aft movement and I found that it
was tedious to run back and forth making minor adjustments. What I
learned after a few times rigging the ship was that the wings needed to
be at a specific height to push them in and at another specific height
to insert the pins.Â* I simply made marks on my wing stands for those two
heights and bolted the rigging tool to the height required to slip the
spar ends into the fuselage tunnel.

It was then simple to adjust the wing stands to the "insert" position
and slide the wings home, re-adjust the stands to the "pins" position
and insert the pins.

If age or strength are the driving reasons, the powered lift might be
just the ticket.Â* Last week my Stemme was used to demonstrate one of
Mark Mocho's electric riggers for a customer.Â* It was surprisingly easy
how it was to install the outer wing panel.

On 6/2/2019 8:45 AM, Paul Kaye wrote:
> Oh - the glider is an LS8 and it's in a Cobra trailer, if that helps.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Dear Paul:
I do have a photo, just e-mail me directly.
The tongue jack section, sans wheel, is inserted in between the wing cuff and axles. It all breaks down by pulling clevis pins, so the individual sections aren't so heavy. It's steel, which gives it a lower cg, very hard to drop a wing. Almost re-did it aluminium before the light bulb came on!

[[email protected]]

There’s two ways to go about this, raise the wing or raise the fuselage! I put the tool all the way down and leave it there. The key is the height of the wing stand and where you put it, i use a 4 leg step ladder (cut down to height with wings level)I put it at the tip. Fuselage is set at 25 foot pumps up.This makes Second wing just about right to slide all the way in, then I raise or lower fuselage with the foot pump as I feel the spar holes come together. Disassembly, i I put the tool on one wing and pick up the other wing tip to get my wing stand in place. This usually allows the pins to come out without any raising or lowering needed.
Hope this helps,
JJ

[Tango Eight]

Sometimes, there's a better way :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcRipsiPgdk

See also: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/jJheTqvVZkg

best,
Evan

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 8:34:47 AM UTC-7, Steve Bralla wrote:
> What happens when you are in the middle of rigging with no one else around and the battery dies? Does the battery have the same connectors as your glider battery?
>
> Steve

Two batteries, one active and one in car for such occurrence.

[JS[_5_]]

I've used a few riggers. My favourite for single seaters was the Udo Rumpf - with the lateral adjustment option. He pased away and nobody bought his tooling (even though it was offered pretty cheap).
For the Duo we've used the Cobra electric and now have the IMI electric.
The IMI is fantastic, and not very heavy. The battery lasts longer than the larger battery in the much heavier worm-drive Cobra.
I own a Cobra manually adjusted rigger, used it on LS4, LS6, ASW27 and G29. Like the Udo, I like the crank.
Have used the WingRigger, it's nice and light. The three-wheel setup is nice in most situations, but am not a fan of the gas strut type, especially rigging on uneven ground. The (original) plastic wheels can fail if used on heavy wings. Believe Mark changed that.
In the grass or dirt you need to adjust more than on paved surfaces.
Adjustment is also a bit of a hiccup with old the style (even JS3 mwent back to it) spars with a single pin and spar-end spiggots. At least with the Libelle (we had a WingRigger for that) you can see wht is misaligned and there is "the tool".
The Duo often needs a bit of a wiggle. Rigging aids don't wiggle well.
With any solo rigger, an alignment device (cam or pry bar type) is very handy.
The cam type that MM Fabrication has is perhaps the best. Cobra second best I've used.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

That's quicker than I can rig the Stemme!Â* It takes me around 9 minutes,
but I have a lot farther to walk to the wing tips and I have to manually
connect the outer sections of the flaperons! :-D

On 6/2/2019 10:08 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
> Sometimes, there's a better way :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcRipsiPgdk
>
> See also: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/jJheTqvVZkg
>
> best,
> Evan

--
Dan, 5J

[Paul Kaye]

On Sunday, 2 June 2019 17:08:28 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
> Sometimes, there's a better way :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcRipsiPgdk
>
> See also: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/jJheTqvVZkg
>
> best,
> Evan

Wow - I wonder if I could make that work? I've never tried rotating the wings whilst the roots are still on the trailer dollies, but if it works that I can see that this method would be an option.
Thanks!

[Paul Kaye]

On Sunday, 2 June 2019 17:51:04 UTC+1, Paul Kaye wrote:
> On Sunday, 2 June 2019 17:08:28 UTC+1, Tango Eight wrote:
> > Sometimes, there's a better way :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcRipsiPgdk
> >
> > See also: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/jJheTqvVZkg
> >
> > best,
> > Evan
>
> Wow - I wonder if I could make that work? I've never tried rotating the wings whilst the roots are still on the trailer dollies, but if it works that I can see that this method would be an option.
> Thanks!

Although, on second thoughts, de-rigging with that system would present a challenge. I think it would need a sturdy tressle-style wing support rather than the little tripod stand.

[Phil Jeffery[_2_]]

At 16:08 02 June 2019, Tango Eight wrote:
>Sometimes, there's a better way :-)
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcRipsiPgdk
>
>See also:
>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/jJheTqvVZkg
>
>best,
>Evan
>


I recommend not lowering the wheel until the wings are on. If the
hydraulic jack lowers itself, and I know it happens, there's nothing to
prevent the fuselage rolling over.


Also, with a suitable bar in the wing-pin hole they can easily be fully
engaged once they're close. It seriously reduces the number of trips to
the wing tips.

Phil

[Giaco]

I build a homemade one based roughly on UDO's designs back when I had an HP-14. I nearly lost all my glider friends at wave camp asking for help rigging! We used an electric actuator that made use of the remote control unit from a $40 Harbor Freight winch and a small 12V LIPO battery. The system was a bit heavy, but was very helpful when you don't have a ship where everything doesn't line up perfectly every time. I think we spent a little under $500 total in parts. happy to share photos if interested
cxgiacomo-at-gmail

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 6:45:04 PM UTC-4, Phil Jeffery wrote:
> ... with a suitable bar in the wing-pin hole they can easily be fully
> engaged once they're close. It seriously reduces the number of trips to
> the wing tips.

Depends entirely on the glider type; shouldn't ever be required with LS.

[Dan Marotta]

A couple of days ago I witnessed an attempt to rig a 1-36 (I think it
was), and the owner was using a crow bar!Â* Try that with FRP structures.

On 6/2/2019 4:36 PM, Phil Jeffery wrote:
> At 16:08 02 June 2019, Tango Eight wrote:
>> Sometimes, there's a better way :-)
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcRipsiPgdk
>>
>> See also:
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/jJheTqvVZkg
>>
>> best,
>> Evan
>>
>
> I recommend not lowering the wheel until the wings are on. If the
> hydraulic jack lowers itself, and I know it happens, there's nothing to
> prevent the fuselage rolling over.
>
>
> Also, with a suitable bar in the wing-pin hole they can easily be fully
> engaged once they're close. It seriously reduces the number of trips to
> the wing tips.
>
> Phil
>

--
Dan, 5J

[danlj]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 9:44:34 AM UTC-5, Paul Kaye wrote:
....it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. ...if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!

When I bought my Ventus in 2000, I bought a bespoke one-man assembly tool from the late Joe Schneider, a machinist and glider guy, that is sturdy, heavy, and remotely operated for up-down movement and manually adjustable for wing tilt. Fore-aft movement is done at the wingtip. I have learned many lessons from 19 years of solo rigging my Ventus.
1: The second wing pushes the first wing out of alignment unless fixed in place. My latest and fastest solution is to align the first wing almost perfectly and then tape the root. (I also put the main spar pin in halfway and brace it with a folded card, but that's not quite adequate.)
2: When working alone, the tilt of the wing chord is important.
3: I have 3 pins to align. The tilt of the fuselage, the height of the fuselage, the tilt and height of the wing are all important. This is a 3-dimensional challenge that can be solved with thoughtful care.
4: The best design I've seen for sale is
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/soaringxx.htm
I saw it demonstrated at the last SSA convention, and it moves the wing in all axes remotely, perfect for the challenges of truly solo rigging. It's out of your budget, but is exactly what I'd thought of designing for myself and, after inflation, less expensive that the one I have. Amortized over the 2 decades I've used it, it's been a bargain.
5: The wind is very important in solo rigging.
A: I always point the trailer into the wind *gusts*, bearing in mind that the wind will change somewhat during a long soaring day.
B: If it's windy, solo rigging may not be safe for the wing. I've been able to solo-assemble in winds up 20 knots with GREAT care. Being in the lee of a big building is helpful, but beware turbulence.
C: In windy conditions, you need to be able to turn the wing flat as soon as possible after removing from the trailer and as late as possible when de-rigging.
D: A solo-rig device is very helpful even when help is available because it reduces risk and strain.
DrDan

[Gary Wayland]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
>
> Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
>
> Thanks in advance.

I have a Fonz-Mobile one man rigger... No Motors! Use the cradle carriage pump to do the up and down when adjusting for the final pin in the spar...

Gary

"SQ"

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 3:06:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
> >
> > Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> I have a Fonz-Mobile one man rigger... No Motors! Use the cradle carriage pump to do the up and down when adjusting for the final pin in the spar...
>
> Gary
>
> "SQ"

Looks like we have a bunch of girly luddites on this topic. Two points: the linear actuators are dirt-cheap and easy to fit even to existing riggers. I built my own. Second, remote control of those actuators cost you a whopping $10-20 and makes it super easy to get the pins in. Here is my rigger whirring away in my basement (no wing saddle fitted).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43YMoq2h7s&t=3s
Now watch it in action, ~7 min for the inside wings. Try to beat that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnmaUsPtvSI&t=1s

[ripacheco1967]

you built that rigger yourself? that is nice... looks awesome
When you know... you know! ;)

[[email protected]]

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> A couple of days ago I witnessed an attempt to rig a 1-36 (I think it
> was), and the owner was using a crow bar!Â* Try that with FRP structures.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Once when I was rigging my HP14 years ago a "helpful" bystander wanted to apply a hammer to the balky spar pins.

That said, some FRP gliders come with a sort of crowbar from the factory, to draw the wings together that last inch - applying the forces to suitably engineered points.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Older GRP maybe....I haven't seen a tool like that in anything made in 30+ years.
I have seen SGS-1-35, and older glass ships, but I usually deal with "AWx" ships, so, I am not an expert.
Most "newer" ships can use a longer tapered pin to align the first hole (assuming 2 root pins) to get one started, then fiddle the 2nd one in......

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Older GRP maybe....I haven't seen a tool like that in anything made in 30+ years.
> I have seen SGS-1-35, and older glass ships, but I usually deal with "AWx" ships, so, I am not an expert.
> Most "newer" ships can use a longer tapered pin to align the first hole (assuming 2 root pins) to get one started, then fiddle the 2nd one in......

I know of at least two Nimbus 4's delivered with the "crowbar tool". I put rubber hose over mine, but I have seen another one used on someone's glider without any covering :(

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 9:12:09 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Older GRP maybe....I haven't seen a tool like that in anything made in 30+ years.
> > I have seen SGS-1-35, and older glass ships, but I usually deal with "AWx" ships, so, I am not an expert.
> > Most "newer" ships can use a longer tapered pin to align the first hole (assuming 2 root pins) to get one started, then fiddle the 2nd one in......
>
> I know of at least two Nimbus 4's delivered with the "crowbar tool". I put rubber hose over mine, but I have seen another one used on someone's glider without any covering :(

Factory graunch bars were pretty common, but sometimes the lift pins showed some wear of using muscle over mind. Alignment is worth the time spent on it, so good rigging aids really help.

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 1:12:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 3:06:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > > My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
> > >
> > > Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > I have a Fonz-Mobile one man rigger... No Motors! Use the cradle carriage pump to do the up and down when adjusting for the final pin in the spar....
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > "SQ"
>
> Looks like we have a bunch of girly luddites on this topic. Two points: the linear actuators are dirt-cheap and easy to fit even to existing riggers.. I built my own. Second, remote control of those actuators cost you a whopping $10-20 and makes it super easy to get the pins in. Here is my rigger whirring away in my basement (no wing saddle fitted).
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43YMoq2h7s&t=3s
> Now watch it in action, ~7 min for the inside wings. Try to beat that.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnmaUsPtvSI&t=1s

That looks pretty sweet Herb. What's the mode of failure if the reduction gears break? Does the lead screw unwind under load and drop your wing to minimum height?

best,
Evan Ludeman

[[email protected]]

Hi Evan, no the failure mode is wherever it left off. I have one, Glider-Rigger, I demoed at Perry this year that uses the same actuators as Herb's wireless remote and breaks down small and packs up in a nice padded covers and softcase all designed to go in the front of the trailer. he is working on revision 3.2 now. It comes with wireless remote and uses 1.5 amp hour cordless drill batteries about 10 or so rigging before charging. It will ship with 2 batteries and charger identical to the Milwaukee 18 volt cordless drill batteries. Website is still under construction but will be:
Glider-Rigger.com email is ventureflight (at) gmail (dot) com

CH ASW27

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 5:59:17 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 1:12:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 3:06:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> > > On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > > > My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
> > > >
> > > > Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > I have a Fonz-Mobile one man rigger... No Motors! Use the cradle carriage pump to do the up and down when adjusting for the final pin in the spar...
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > > "SQ"
> >
> > Looks like we have a bunch of girly luddites on this topic. Two points: the linear actuators are dirt-cheap and easy to fit even to existing riggers. I built my own. Second, remote control of those actuators cost you a whopping $10-20 and makes it super easy to get the pins in. Here is my rigger whirring away in my basement (no wing saddle fitted).
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43YMoq2h7s&t=3s
> > Now watch it in action, ~7 min for the inside wings. Try to beat that.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnmaUsPtvSI&t=1s
>
> That looks pretty sweet Herb. What's the mode of failure if the reduction gears break? Does the lead screw unwind under load and drop your wing to minimum height?
>
> best,
> Evan Ludeman

Not sure what you mean by 'failure mode', Evan. There is no brake mechanism in the actuator as far as I know. It just stops and locks due to the small pitch of the spindle/screw system. A short push on the remote button will give you a rather constant 3-5mm travel so you can finely adjust the position.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 6:23:36 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Older GRP maybe....I haven't seen a tool like that in anything made in 30+ years.
> I have seen SGS-1-35, and older glass ships, but I usually deal with "AWx" ships, so, I am not an expert.
> Most "newer" ships can use a longer tapered pin to align the first hole (assuming 2 root pins) to get one started, then fiddle the 2nd one in......

304CZ has such, not that old.

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 10:13:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 5:59:17 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 1:12:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 3:06:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > > > > My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > >
> > > > I have a Fonz-Mobile one man rigger... No Motors! Use the cradle carriage pump to do the up and down when adjusting for the final pin in the spar...
> > > >
> > > > Gary
> > > >
> > > > "SQ"
> > >
> > > Looks like we have a bunch of girly luddites on this topic. Two points: the linear actuators are dirt-cheap and easy to fit even to existing riggers. I built my own. Second, remote control of those actuators cost you a whopping $10-20 and makes it super easy to get the pins in. Here is my rigger whirring away in my basement (no wing saddle fitted).
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43YMoq2h7s&t=3s
> > > Now watch it in action, ~7 min for the inside wings. Try to beat that..
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnmaUsPtvSI&t=1s
> >
> > That looks pretty sweet Herb. What's the mode of failure if the reduction gears break? Does the lead screw unwind under load and drop your wing to minimum height?
> >
> > best,
> > Evan Ludeman
>
> Not sure what you mean by 'failure mode', Evan. There is no brake mechanism in the actuator as far as I know. It just stops and locks due to the small pitch of the spindle/screw system. A short push on the remote button will give you a rather constant 3-5mm travel so you can finely adjust the position.

Gear failures in these low cost actuators are not unknown. If the gears break, but the motor is the only brake, can you see the potential problem?

Sorry -- it's my job to think about crap like this.

best,
Evan

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 10:13:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 5:59:17 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 1:12:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 3:06:03 AM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:44:34 AM UTC-4, Paul Kaye wrote:
> > > > > > My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks in advance.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a Fonz-Mobile one man rigger... No Motors! Use the cradle carriage pump to do the up and down when adjusting for the final pin in the spar...
> > > > >
> > > > > Gary
> > > > >
> > > > > "SQ"
> > > >
> > > > Looks like we have a bunch of girly luddites on this topic. Two points: the linear actuators are dirt-cheap and easy to fit even to existing riggers. I built my own. Second, remote control of those actuators cost you a whopping $10-20 and makes it super easy to get the pins in. Here is my rigger whirring away in my basement (no wing saddle fitted).
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43YMoq2h7s&t=3s
> > > > Now watch it in action, ~7 min for the inside wings. Try to beat that.
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnmaUsPtvSI&t=1s
> > >
> > > That looks pretty sweet Herb. What's the mode of failure if the reduction gears break? Does the lead screw unwind under load and drop your wing to minimum height?
> > >
> > > best,
> > > Evan Ludeman
> >
> > Not sure what you mean by 'failure mode', Evan. There is no brake mechanism in the actuator as far as I know. It just stops and locks due to the small pitch of the spindle/screw system. A short push on the remote button will give you a rather constant 3-5mm travel so you can finely adjust the position.
>
> Gear failures in these low cost actuators are not unknown. If the gears break, but the motor is the only brake, can you see the potential problem?
>
> Sorry -- it's my job to think about crap like this.
>
> best,
> Evan

Evan,
If I get really bored some day, I will take out the gears from the motor to the spindle (or maybe it's the nut that is being turned) and see how the system reacts to compression. I strongly assume that the pitch of the screw is so low, that it is self arresting - just like in all our fasteners.

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:05:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> A couple of days ago I witnessed an attempt to rig a 1-36 (I think it
>> was), and the owner was using a crow bar!* Try that with FRP structures.
>>
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
>
>Once when I was rigging my HP14 years ago a "helpful" bystander wanted to apply a hammer to the balky spar pins.
>
>That said, some FRP gliders come with a sort of crowbar from the factory, to draw the wings together that last inch -
>applying the forces to suitably engineered points.

An indelible memory for me, shortly after starting my flight training
in 1970, was the sight of the late Dick Johnson driving home the main
pin into his HP-13 with a 5 lb sledge hammer. Apparently normal
procedure for Dick and this particular ship.

Bob

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Herb, I think Evan asked a valid question, seems like you gave a valid answer. I see no need to "remove gears" to test a geartrain failure issue.
If a fine pitch (as you indicated), likely basically no issue.
Thick grease may negate an issue on a coarser pitch.

Unless, of course, a major earthquake that rattles bits around......then, what a wing rigger when it fails is doing is likely a moot point.... ;-)

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 1:35:52 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Herb, I think Evan asked a valid question, seems like you gave a valid answer. I see no need to "remove gears" to test a geartrain failure issue.
> If a fine pitch (as you indicated), likely basically no issue.
> Thick grease may negate an issue on a coarser pitch.
>
> Unless, of course, a major earthquake that rattles bits around......then, what a wing rigger when it fails is doing is likely a moot point.... ;-)

I've seen wing stands that would do more damage in failure mode, and nobody cares.
Jim

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 8:26:38 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 1:35:52 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Herb, I think Evan asked a valid question, seems like you gave a valid answer. I see no need to "remove gears" to test a geartrain failure issue.
> > If a fine pitch (as you indicated), likely basically no issue.
> > Thick grease may negate an issue on a coarser pitch.
> >
> > Unless, of course, a major earthquake that rattles bits around......then, what a wing rigger when it fails is doing is likely a moot point.... ;-)
>
> I've seen wing stands that would do more damage in failure mode, and nobody cares.
> Jim

You can care before you have a problem, or after. It's less aggravation to care beforehand.

Herb: right -- would simply like to confirm that the thread pitch is something reasonable, no more than 3mm or so.

T8

[Jonathan Foster]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 8:44:34 AM UTC-6, Paul Kaye wrote:
> My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
>
> Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
>
> Thanks in advance.

I bought a used electric Cobra Rigger and I have to say it has been great. I can now put my glider together and disassemble without help. In all honesty, I now actually prefer rigging without help.

Originally I was going to make one of Herb's rigger's but between family activities, civic duties, and flying I realized I simply didn't have time. Herb is a wealth of knowledge and I used his plans/advice to modify my rigger to be wirelessly operated. I can now make fine adjustments without running all over the place.

The relay module I used is the Sonoff 4CH Pro R2 Smart Switch. It has options to use a 433mhz remote or even an app on your phone if you lose the remote (like I have several times). The bonus is the sonoff with remote was only $40.

If you get an electric rigger and want to convert it to wireless operation here is a link to the Amazon page: https://amzn.to/2I02OKT

[[email protected]]

Lotta discussion about solo rigging. When I started doing it (with my LS-3) in 1981, I was usually the only pilot there with it. "Why?" was the puzzled question, "There's always someone around to help." Today, it seems the majority of pilots have some kind of self-rigging wingstand even though they don't always use it.

I had people around, too, but they weren't always thrilled about my 175 lbs.. LS-3 wings. Nor did my crews then (my younger sister and mother) stand up well to a nationals. I built a much refined version (called the "WingMate", which I sold for a few years until I ran out of time--maybe someday I'll pick it up again). I've been using it for my ASW-24 to solo rig since 1992.

As with any other decision, it helps to define what you want, including:

1. Do you want to be independent, or just take the load off your crewperson? (truly independent for me; I'm crewless at contests)
2. Can you keep the rigging equipment assembled, or do you have to store it in the trailer and set it up each time (each time for me, which is why mine folds in about 10 sec.)
3. Will you be rigging on a smooth, flat surface each time? (for me, often on uneven grass, almost never in the same spot, and even derigging in plowed fields occasionally, which is why mine doesn't really roll)
4. Is the goal to eliminate heavy lifting (spars) or just to allow solo rigging? (the latter for me; I don't have a problem lifting the spar end of the '24 wing. Mine isn't what many pilots want: i.e., a way to avoid picking up the spar. I do, however, have a problem lifting the early Cobra solo rigger when it's assembled--which is often the case since there are some clevis pins and safety pins required; I took one in trade on a WingMate and hurt my back lifting it out of my van)
5. Is it often windy when you rig/derig? (mine is a bit vulnerable to gusty winds so I will ask someone to stand by it just in case if the wind is up near 15 or 20 knots)
6. Do you have a typical Cobra/Komet-style trailer with a fuselage jack and spar butts that roll out on dollies? (as many have noted, adjusting the fuselage up/down eliminates much, though not all, of the fiddling to get the wingtip height correct)
7. Is speed of assembly a factor? (you can solo rig pretty well with some simple supports, including a foam roller and some wingstands; it just takes a longer. Setting up some of the complex riggers can take almost as long as it take me to self rig)
8. Do you really need it all the time, or is this just for the occasional "last pilot down" or "assembling first thing in the morning" situation? (I normally use mine every time because it's easier and doesn't usually take any longer)
9. Do you really need it at all? If you have an active club and/or a dedicated crew, you may not need/want to add the complexity.

Etc. The "powered vs. unpowered" argument is only relevant for a few of these requirements, including the requirement to show up with the most complex, innovative gadgets, whether or not they actually work. :)

Once you have your requirements fairly well defined, and some "edge cases" (e.g., you want to be able to hitch a ride back to the airport, then drive your trailer out to the plowed field and self retrieve yourself--which I've done), then you're ready to design/build/modify or buy a wingstand. Until then, you're just comparing gadgets and gee-whiz features. Make sure you know what you need. I see a lot of expensive solo wingstands that never seem to get used.

Chip Bearden
JB

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 3:44:34 PM UTC+1, Paul Kaye wrote:
> My new club seems to have a culture of rig in April and derig in October! Personally I prefer to rig and derig for each flight, unless I know that there is a run of several days good weather and I'm available to fly. I have covers (Cloud-dancers) but I really don't think they offer the protection against UV that is needed for leaving it outdoors for long periods.
>
> Anyhow, as a consequence, it's not always easy to get help to rig/de-rig so I'm thinking of getting a on-man rigging aid. It seems that I can get one from IMI for about €900 that is manually-adjustable for height and sideways alignment, or I could pay around €1500 for an electrically-adjustable version. I'm happy to pay for the more expensive one, if it's worth it. So, if any of you have any experiences/opinions, I'd be happy to hear them!
>
> Thanks in advance.

With a Cobra-style trailer a one man rigger can make the difference between being able to solo rig safely or not. Adding electrically adjustment simply takes a few minutes off the time taken and saves a few yards of walking. I would say that your first 900 euros buys at least 90% of the functionality and the additional 600 euros for the electrics would only add 10% at most.

The major variable in my rigging times are figuring out when, how much and in what direction to raise or lower the wing tips to get the pin/s in and not the actual doing of it. Also, it may well be the other wing that will need adjusted rather than the one with the electric rigger on it.

[Paul Kaye]

Thank you to everyone for all your replies! I appreciate the time you've all taken.

I'm leaning towards the cheaper non-electric version. Not only is it cheaper, but it's lighter, simpler and less likely to fail on me at the wrong time.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 2:49:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Lotta discussion about solo rigging. When I started doing it (with my LS-3) in 1981, I was usually the only pilot there with it. "Why?" was the puzzled question, "There's always someone around to help." Today, it seems the majority of pilots have some kind of self-rigging wingstand even though they don't always use it.
>
> I had people around, too, but they weren't always thrilled about my 175 lbs. LS-3 wings. Nor did my crews then (my younger sister and mother) stand up well to a nationals. I built a much refined version (called the "WingMate", which I sold for a few years until I ran out of time--maybe someday I'll pick it up again). I've been using it for my ASW-24 to solo rig since 1992.
>
> As with any other decision, it helps to define what you want, including:
>
> 1. Do you want to be independent, or just take the load off your crewperson? (truly independent for me; I'm crewless at contests)
> 2. Can you keep the rigging equipment assembled, or do you have to store it in the trailer and set it up each time (each time for me, which is why mine folds in about 10 sec.)
> 3. Will you be rigging on a smooth, flat surface each time? (for me, often on uneven grass, almost never in the same spot, and even derigging in plowed fields occasionally, which is why mine doesn't really roll)
> 4. Is the goal to eliminate heavy lifting (spars) or just to allow solo rigging? (the latter for me; I don't have a problem lifting the spar end of the '24 wing. Mine isn't what many pilots want: i.e., a way to avoid picking up the spar. I do, however, have a problem lifting the early Cobra solo rigger when it's assembled--which is often the case since there are some clevis pins and safety pins required; I took one in trade on a WingMate and hurt my back lifting it out of my van)
> 5. Is it often windy when you rig/derig? (mine is a bit vulnerable to gusty winds so I will ask someone to stand by it just in case if the wind is up near 15 or 20 knots)
> 6. Do you have a typical Cobra/Komet-style trailer with a fuselage jack and spar butts that roll out on dollies? (as many have noted, adjusting the fuselage up/down eliminates much, though not all, of the fiddling to get the wingtip height correct)
> 7. Is speed of assembly a factor? (you can solo rig pretty well with some simple supports, including a foam roller and some wingstands; it just takes a longer. Setting up some of the complex riggers can take almost as long as it take me to self rig)
> 8. Do you really need it all the time, or is this just for the occasional "last pilot down" or "assembling first thing in the morning" situation? (I normally use mine every time because it's easier and doesn't usually take any longer)
> 9. Do you really need it at all? If you have an active club and/or a dedicated crew, you may not need/want to add the complexity.
>
> Etc. The "powered vs. unpowered" argument is only relevant for a few of these requirements, including the requirement to show up with the most complex, innovative gadgets, whether or not they actually work. :)
>
> Once you have your requirements fairly well defined, and some "edge cases" (e.g., you want to be able to hitch a ride back to the airport, then drive your trailer out to the plowed field and self retrieve yourself--which I've done), then you're ready to design/build/modify or buy a wingstand. Until then, you're just comparing gadgets and gee-whiz features. Make sure you know what you need. I see a lot of expensive solo wingstands that never seem to get used.
>
> Chip Bearden
> JB

Chip, not sure why you trash the powered wingriggers without any knowledge how much time, effort, bending over etc. they save? Just keep your quiet and and let people choose for themselves. I for one wouldn't want to go back to the old style and manual adjustments. As they say, to each his own and your mileage may vary.
Think positive, flaps negative! Herb

[[email protected]]

> Chip, not sure why you trash the powered wingriggers without any knowledge how much time, effort, bending over etc. they save? Just keep your quiet and and let people choose for themselves. I for one wouldn't want to go back to the old style and manual adjustments. As they say, to each his own and your mileage may vary.
> Think positive, flaps negative! Herb

Herb, Herb, it was a joke. Just like your referring to those of us who aren't gaga over electric wing riggers as "girly luddites." You were joking, right? :)

I just wanted to encourage people to examine what they wanted to accomplish with a solo wingstand--and then buy/build what they need, not necessarily the most complex gadget out there. I designed my first solo rigger in 1982 and have assembled/disassembled nearly every time I've flow since then. I don't have my logbooks handy but I suspect that's around 1200 times. I've seen most of the riggers out there, including some of the powered ones. I even watched your YouTube film debut. Very nice, but let me know if you want to race for pink slips for real: i.e., drive up to wings and tail on. I regularly do that in 10 minutes, including the set up time for my wingstand (10 seconds).

But my wingstand isn't for everyone, just like yours isn't, because pilots have different requirements. Mine have changed over the years as I've used mine, as the glider changed (from an LS-3 to an ASW 24), and as I've aged. Again, that was the point of my posting: know what you hope to accomplish and then make your decision.

Frankly, another device with motors, batteries, and remote controllers is the last thing I want to add to my soaring kit these days. But as you say, to each his (or her) own. Even us girly Luddites. :)

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 9:19:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Chip, not sure why you trash the powered wingriggers without any knowledge how much time, effort, bending over etc. they save? Just keep your quiet and and let people choose for themselves. I for one wouldn't want to go back to the old style and manual adjustments. As they say, to each his own and your mileage may vary.
> > Think positive, flaps negative! Herb
>
> Herb, Herb, it was a joke. Just like your referring to those of us who aren't gaga over electric wing riggers as "girly luddites." You were joking, right? :)
>
> I just wanted to encourage people to examine what they wanted to accomplish with a solo wingstand--and then buy/build what they need, not necessarily the most complex gadget out there. I designed my first solo rigger in 1982 and have assembled/disassembled nearly every time I've flow since then. I don't have my logbooks handy but I suspect that's around 1200 times. I've seen most of the riggers out there, including some of the powered ones. I even watched your YouTube film debut. Very nice, but let me know if you want to race for pink slips for real: i.e., drive up to wings and tail on. I regularly do that in 10 minutes, including the set up time for my wingstand (10 seconds).
>
> But my wingstand isn't for everyone, just like yours isn't, because pilots have different requirements. Mine have changed over the years as I've used mine, as the glider changed (from an LS-3 to an ASW 24), and as I've aged.. Again, that was the point of my posting: know what you hope to accomplish and then make your decision.
>
> Frankly, another device with motors, batteries, and remote controllers is the last thing I want to add to my soaring kit these days. But as you say, to each his (or her) own. Even us girly Luddites. :)
>
> Chip Bearden

Yes, I missed the irony in your post, sorry about that, Chip. Also, I had never used 'girly luddites' in a note before and although it has a sexist streak, I thought it's too good to pass up. To each his own, as you say.