Real Costs of operation

[Mike]

I'm trying to get a good objective reading on what the actual hourly
cost is to operate a Kitfox, Avid, or RANS type aircraft with a Rotax
912/14 and 582. I know what it is to overhaul the engines, but I need
feedback from someone who has actually recorded the information and
can give me imperical information. Any takers???

[Roger Halstead]

On 19 Aug 2004 16:09:22 -0700, (Mike) wrote:

>I'm trying to get a good objective reading on what the actual hourly
>cost is to operate a Kitfox, Avid, or RANS type aircraft with a Rotax
>912/14 and 582. I know what it is to overhaul the engines, but I need
>feedback from someone who has actually recorded the information and
>can give me imperical information. Any takers???

I can't give you the figures for the Kitfox, but I can tell you that
you should figure the cost the way the FBO does and not rationalize
away part of the costs. Use everything, insurance, hanger,
maintenance, overhaul (averaged per hours), as well as gas and oil.
IOW take the *entire* cost of owning per year and then divide by the
hours you fly or plan to fly.

Quite a few do not figure hanger, insurance, and payments (or at least
interest), but if you didn't have the plane you wouldn't have the
costs.

Only when you sell it can you figure the difference between the
acquisition cost and what you get back In some cases it's a positive
figure.

I didn't have any interest so I can take the increase in value (if
any) when I sell the plane and then average it over the number of
hours flown and hopefully subtract it. To get the actual hourly cost
for owning and flying the plane for however many years I have kept it.

So, if I flew 1000 hours and sold the plane for 20,000 over what I
paid I could subtract $20 per hours from the flying cost. OTOH that is
not realistic while you are flying the plane. If you keep it for 10
years and fly 100 hours per year that extra $20 per hour subtracted at
the end really has no effect while you are flying.

As a "Wild Assed Guess" (WAG), I'd guess the Kitfox would run between
$20 to $30 per hours. We were flying a Cherokee 180 at $37 per hour
with 5 people flying it. Flying 130 hours per year the Deb was costing
me $79 per hour.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Barnyard BOb -]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:32:43 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:

>On 19 Aug 2004 16:09:22 -0700, (Mike) wrote:
>
>>I'm trying to get a good objective reading on what the actual hourly
>>cost is to operate a Kitfox, Avid, or RANS type aircraft with a Rotax
>>912/14 and 582. I know what it is to overhaul the engines, but I need
>>feedback from someone who has actually recorded the information and
>>can give me imperical information. Any takers???
>

>As a "Wild Assed Guess" (WAG), I'd guess the Kitfox would run between
>$20 to $30 per hours. We were flying a Cherokee 180 at $37 per hour
>with 5 people flying it. Flying 130 hours per year the Deb was costing
>me $79 per hour.
>
>Roger Halstead
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WAG is right.
Not enuff specific info from mike, because...

If the annual total costs are $2000 and you fly one (1) hour...
That COULD be $2000 an hour.

Flying my RV-3 under my specific circumstances...
I never have had the hourly cost below $55 an hour
and I fly more than 100 hours a year. If I fly less hours
a year, have the hangar rent, insurance and the time
value of money increase, the hourly cost can rise....
DRAMATICALLY.


Barnyard BOb - over 50 years of flight

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:36:15 -0500, Barnyard BOb -
> wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:32:43 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:
>
>>On 19 Aug 2004 16:09:22 -0700, (Mike) wrote:
>>
>>>I'm trying to get a good objective reading on what the actual hourly
>>>cost is to operate a Kitfox, Avid, or RANS type aircraft with a Rotax
>>>912/14 and 582. I know what it is to overhaul the engines, but I need
>>>feedback from someone who has actually recorded the information and
>>>can give me imperical information. Any takers???
>>
>
>>As a "Wild Assed Guess" (WAG), I'd guess the Kitfox would run between
>>$20 to $30 per hours. We were flying a Cherokee 180 at $37 per hour
>>with 5 people flying it. Flying 130 hours per year the Deb was costing
>>me $79 per hour.
>>
>>Roger Halstead
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>WAG is right.
>Not enuff specific info from mike, because...
>
>If the annual total costs are $2000 and you fly one (1) hour...
>That COULD be $2000 an hour.

Amen!

As you say below, add insurance, hanger, interest... Of course for one
hour the gas and oil *should* be almost negligible compared tot he
other expenses.

Actual figures: Let's see. Insurance $1700, hanger 140/month=
1680/year and the annual ran $1750 this year, for $5130 fixed costs.
14 GPH at $2.80 = $39.2
So one hour would run me $5169.20.
10 hours drops the cost 5522/10=$552.20/hour
and 100 hours = $9050/100= $90.50 per hour.
If I could manage to get 130 hours as I flew for most years that is
10,539.6/130=$81.07

I did neglect the oil changes in there, or any likely incidental
maintenance AND the $10 per hour I add for the major. Yearly interest
if any should also be added as it's an expense that you never get
back.

As it costs me nearly $40 per hour for gas and a minimum of $10 per
hour toward the major and an oil change every 25 hours, The variable
cost per hour is a minimum of roughly $55.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Flying my RV-3 under my specific circumstances...
>I never have had the hourly cost below $55 an hour
>and I fly more than 100 hours a year. If I fly less hours
>a year, have the hangar rent, insurance and the time
>value of money increase, the hourly cost can rise....
>DRAMATICALLY.
>
>
>Barnyard BOb - over 50 years of flight

[Ernest Christley]

Roger Halstead wrote:

> Amen!
>
> As you say below, add insurance, hanger, interest... Of course for one
> hour the gas and oil *should* be almost negligible compared tot he
> other expenses.
>
> Actual figures: Let's see. Insurance $1700, hanger 140/month=
> 1680/year and the annual ran $1750 this year, for $5130 fixed costs.
> 14 GPH at $2.80 = $39.2
> So one hour would run me $5169.20.
> 10 hours drops the cost 5522/10=$552.20/hour
> and 100 hours = $9050/100= $90.50 per hour.
> If I could manage to get 130 hours as I flew for most years that is
> 10,539.6/130=$81.07
>
> I did neglect the oil changes in there, or any likely incidental
> maintenance AND the $10 per hour I add for the major. Yearly interest
> if any should also be added as it's an expense that you never get
> back.
>
> As it costs me nearly $40 per hour for gas and a minimum of $10 per
> hour toward the major and an oil change every 25 hours, The variable
> cost per hour is a minimum of roughly $55.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>

They type of airplane you have can make a lot of difference. This WAG
is slightly bigger than the other, since I haven't finished building
yet, but....

No insurance. It's a plans built aircraft. No loan, no need for hull
coverage. If I trash the plane, then I'm just back to where I started.

No annual. I'll have the repairman's certificate.

No hanger. The Delta folds up and you take it home with you (No. I'm
not making that up.)

I'm installing a rotary engine. Mogas is cheaper, but still around
$2/gal. My burn rate will be about the same, 8-14gph depending on how
fast I want to go on any particular day.

Overhauls will run between $200 and $5000, depending on what must be
replaced (changing seals to a whole new engine). I'm only counting on
1000hrs TBO. At 100hrs/yr, it'll take 10yrs to to reach TBO. The seals
need to come out then regardless of how well the engine seems to be running.

These numbers will probably be way off. Just a back-of-envelope data point.


--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
"Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
alleviated by information and experience."
Veeduber

[Mike]

I guess I wasn't quite specific enough. I have accounted for the
annuals, overhauls, repairmans certificate, hanger (NOT, I'm going to
fold wings and go home). What I'm really after is actual fuel costs,
oil changes, and a SWAG on repair parts and consumables cost for an
average year. I'm specifically focusing on Rotax four strokes vs
Rotax two strokes. Based on 100 hrs/yr, anyone want to SWAG?
Mike


Ernest Christley > wrote in message >...
> Roger Halstead wrote:
>
> > Amen!
> >
> > As you say below, add insurance, hanger, interest... Of course for one
> > hour the gas and oil *should* be almost negligible compared tot he
> > other expenses.
> >
> > Actual figures: Let's see. Insurance $1700, hanger 140/month=
> > 1680/year and the annual ran $1750 this year, for $5130 fixed costs.
> > 14 GPH at $2.80 = $39.2
> > So one hour would run me $5169.20.
> > 10 hours drops the cost 5522/10=$552.20/hour
> > and 100 hours = $9050/100= $90.50 per hour.
> > If I could manage to get 130 hours as I flew for most years that is
> > 10,539.6/130=$81.07
> >
> > I did neglect the oil changes in there, or any likely incidental
> > maintenance AND the $10 per hour I add for the major. Yearly interest
> > if any should also be added as it's an expense that you never get
> > back.
> >
> > As it costs me nearly $40 per hour for gas and a minimum of $10 per
> > hour toward the major and an oil change every 25 hours, The variable
> > cost per hour is a minimum of roughly $55.
> >
> > Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> > (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> > www.rogerhalstead.com
> >
>
> They type of airplane you have can make a lot of difference. This WAG
> is slightly bigger than the other, since I haven't finished building
> yet, but....
>
> No insurance. It's a plans built aircraft. No loan, no need for hull
> coverage. If I trash the plane, then I'm just back to where I started.
>
> No annual. I'll have the repairman's certificate.
>
> No hanger. The Delta folds up and you take it home with you (No. I'm
> not making that up.)
>
> I'm installing a rotary engine. Mogas is cheaper, but still around
> $2/gal. My burn rate will be about the same, 8-14gph depending on how
> fast I want to go on any particular day.
>
> Overhauls will run between $200 and $5000, depending on what must be
> replaced (changing seals to a whole new engine). I'm only counting on
> 1000hrs TBO. At 100hrs/yr, it'll take 10yrs to to reach TBO. The seals
> need to come out then regardless of how well the engine seems to be running.
>
> These numbers will probably be way off. Just a back-of-envelope data point.

[ET]

(Mike) wrote in
om:

> I guess I wasn't quite specific enough. I have accounted for the
> annuals, overhauls, repairmans certificate, hanger (NOT, I'm going to
> fold wings and go home). What I'm really after is actual fuel costs,
> oil changes, and a SWAG on repair parts and consumables cost for an
> average year. I'm specifically focusing on Rotax four strokes vs
> Rotax two strokes. Based on 100 hrs/yr, anyone want to SWAG?
> Mike
>
>
> Ernest Christley > wrote in message
> >...
>> Roger Halstead wrote:
>>
>> > Amen!
>> >
>> > As you say below, add insurance, hanger, interest... Of course for
>> > one hour the gas and oil *should* be almost negligible compared tot
>> > he other expenses.
>> >
>> > Actual figures: Let's see. Insurance $1700, hanger 140/month=
>> > 1680/year and the annual ran $1750 this year, for $5130 fixed
>> > costs. 14 GPH at $2.80 = $39.2
>> > So one hour would run me $5169.20.
>> > 10 hours drops the cost 5522/10=$552.20/hour
>> > and 100 hours = $9050/100= $90.50 per hour.
>> > If I could manage to get 130 hours as I flew for most years that is
>> > 10,539.6/130=$81.07
>> >
>> > I did neglect the oil changes in there, or any likely incidental
>> > maintenance AND the $10 per hour I add for the major. Yearly
>> > interest if any should also be added as it's an expense that you
>> > never get back.
>> >
>> > As it costs me nearly $40 per hour for gas and a minimum of $10 per
>> > hour toward the major and an oil change every 25 hours, The
>> > variable cost per hour is a minimum of roughly $55.
>> >
>> > Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> > (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>> > www.rogerhalstead.com
>> >
>>
>> They type of airplane you have can make a lot of difference. This
>> WAG is slightly bigger than the other, since I haven't finished
>> building yet, but....
>>
>> No insurance. It's a plans built aircraft. No loan, no need for
>> hull coverage. If I trash the plane, then I'm just back to where I
>> started.
>>
>> No annual. I'll have the repairman's certificate.
>>
>> No hanger. The Delta folds up and you take it home with you (No.
>> I'm not making that up.)
>>
>> I'm installing a rotary engine. Mogas is cheaper, but still around
>> $2/gal. My burn rate will be about the same, 8-14gph depending on
>> how fast I want to go on any particular day.
>>
>> Overhauls will run between $200 and $5000, depending on what must be
>> replaced (changing seals to a whole new engine). I'm only counting
>> on 1000hrs TBO. At 100hrs/yr, it'll take 10yrs to to reach TBO. The
>> seals need to come out then regardless of how well the engine seems
>> to be running.
>>
>> These numbers will probably be way off. Just a back-of-envelope data
>> point.
>

I think you need BOTH numbers.

You need the "what did this cost me last year per hour to fly" for the
decision to keep the plane or sell it...

But you also need to know the "what is this going to cost me to fly 2 hrs
to grandma's house and 2 hrs back" for the decision to go see grandma or
just fly an hour around the pattern


Bruce - Aviation wannabe

--
ET >:)


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