THEMI and WinPilot thermal centering reviews?

[Stewart Kissel]

I googled this topic and found a few threads...but
nothing to recent. Anyone out in cyberspace want to
provide input from *actual* use? I am not intersted
in started a flame war over the 'purity' of using these
devices. Just curious as to how they have worked out.
I drop waypoints into my GPS on occasion when I work
a blue thermal that is on my return course...but other
then that I use the conditions outside the cockpit
to hunt thermals. I noticed where WinPilot now has
a means of evaluating multiple flights to determine
ahead of time where thermals may be...sort of a refinement
of CH's project.

[Steve Hill]

I have used the WinPilot thermal centering feature since I first plugged the
unit into my 302...I would have to say that it works...I find that it's just
one more little beep in the cockpit,that I really don't pay much attention
to, but on the weird western washington days, when thermals rapidly cycle
and the day is drying out very quickly, I have many times found myself
confirming my decisions by the reassuring little beep the thermal centering
feature makes. I have never allowed it to drive me, and in most cases feel
that it lags just enough that you tend to analyze the thermal yourself and
make your own decision and then the instrument backs you up...there of
course are the odd times, when you get distracted by it, as it gets a little
confused when you are working thermals that have multiple "cores" or perhaps
two or three thermals all culminating under one large cloud...but in those
cases you just fly and do what you think is right. I have never found it to
be a detriment in the cockpit and I think in some ways it might make you pay
more attention subliminally to analyzing your thermals better...If you are
doing things well...it never squawks...

As with most technology...it suits some and doesn't suit other is my best
guess.


Steve.

[Paul Remde]

Hi Stewart,

My friends Fred Hewitt owns a DG-1000 which has a Themi installed. He says
he really like it a lot. That is the only direct feedback I've received on
the Themi.

I sell the Themi.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
>I googled this topic and found a few threads...but
> nothing to recent. Anyone out in cyberspace want to
> provide input from *actual* use? I am not intersted
> in started a flame war over the 'purity' of using these
> devices. Just curious as to how they have worked out.
> I drop waypoints into my GPS on occasion when I work
> a blue thermal that is on my return course...but other
> then that I use the conditions outside the cockpit
> to hunt thermals. I noticed where WinPilot now has
> a means of evaluating multiple flights to determine
> ahead of time where thermals may be...sort of a refinement
> of CH's project.
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Not flown with Themi but have used climb maximizer for a few years now.

It works pretty well especially if conditions are light and you are
tired at the end of a flight. It helps take the guess work out of
centering.

I get more value however in zooming in so I can see in the circle the
lift dot sizes relative to turn. Just steer for the bigger lift dots.
Al

[Thomas Knauff]

First of all, I am a dealer for Themi in the USA.

Bernd Scheffel, the designer of Themi, came to our gliderport several years
ago with his Themi device and installed it in our Duo Discus. We flew
together for an hour or so, and I considered the device as "interesting."

With my vast hours of thermalling experience, I had developed certain
Pavlovian responses to bumps in the air and beeps of the audio. I considered
my thermalling methods to be at least above average, fully understanding the
typical turmoil of the thermal air-flow. I doubted if Themi would be a
useful tool - at least for me or any experienced pilot.

One day, I decided to find out just what Themi was capable of. I doggedly
followed the blinking lights and discovered to my amazement that it was
unerringly correct. Often, my resposnes to bumps and beeps would have been
different than Themi indicated.

One must understand Themi does not look out the window. Using simple
variometer and GPS signals, it only tells the pilot where the center of the
lift was as experienced during the last turn.

For this reason, I find Themi most valuable when there are no clouds, or
iwhen low and disassociated from the clouds. At these times, Themi is
invaluable.

Themi uses two bright LED lights to signal when to steepen, shallow turns or
fly straight to the better lift. When the pilot is centering correctly,
there are no light signals. No distracting audio, nothing to distract the
pilot. There is no reason to look anywhere except outside the glider,
observing conditions outside for visual clues and collision avoidance.

The trend towards devices inside the cockpit which can be distracting, and
often provide lots of "interesting" information rather than the few things a
pilot really needs to know is an important issue when considering adding any
device to your cockpit.

More information about Themi can be found on our web site.

Tom Knauff
Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
www.eglider.org

[[email protected]]

Stewart,

I sell WinPilot and have used WinPilot for about 7 years. I flew with
the climb maximizer for the first time last season and was pleasantly
surprised. I thought we all knew how to center a thermal. WinPilot
gets its data from the vario and GPS Input. The display shows the
thermal with an arrow that points at the strongest lift the arrow gets
smaller and is a dot when the thermal is centered. It also has the
additional feature of lift dots on the main flying screen. WinPilot
also has a beep when you are in the strongest part of the thermal.

Please see my website and give me a call if you want more info.

Richard
Craggy Aero
www.craggyaero.com


Stewart Kissel wrote:
> I googled this topic and found a few threads...but
> nothing to recent. Anyone out in cyberspace want to
> provide input from *actual* use? I am not intersted
> in started a flame war over the 'purity' of using these
> devices. Just curious as to how they have worked out.
> I drop waypoints into my GPS on occasion when I work
> a blue thermal that is on my return course...but other
> then that I use the conditions outside the cockpit
> to hunt thermals. I noticed where WinPilot now has
> a means of evaluating multiple flights to determine
> ahead of time where thermals may be...sort of a refinement
> of CH's project.

[Andy Blackburn]

I find Climb Maximizer to be pretty useful. It appers
to work on the same basic principle as Tom describes
for Themi though I suspect each uses its own algorithm.
Having looked at the Themi, I personally find the blinking
lights to be a bit non-intuitive compared to the 'cut
soda can' display Winpilot uses to depict climb rate
around each turn, the arrow pointing to the strongest
lift and the beep when it's time to shallow your bank.
The beep is great because you can be looking in any
direction and still make use of the advice.

I know one person who installed a Themi and took it
out after finding it too hard to decipher. That's only
one example, so don't draw too much from it. Other
pilots seem to like theirs. It certainly doen't take
up any space if your panel is already full. On the
other hand WinPilot is also a full flight computer,
so if you're setting up a new panel there may be some
cost benefit.

One shortcoming for me is that you need to fly a complete
circle before climb maximizer can give any advice.
The first turn is often the most critical in terms
of centering - or leaving - a thermal. For that decision
you're on your own.

9B

At 14:30 27 January 2005, Thomas Knauff wrote:
>First of all, I am a dealer for Themi in the USA.
>
>Bernd Scheffel, the designer of Themi, came to our
>gliderport several years
>ago with his Themi device and installed it in our Duo
>Discus. We flew
>together for an hour or so, and I considered the device
>as 'interesting.'
>
>With my vast hours of thermalling experience, I had
>developed certain
>Pavlovian responses to bumps in the air and beeps of
>the audio. I considered
>my thermalling methods to be at least above average,
>fully understanding the
>typical turmoil of the thermal air-flow. I doubted
>if Themi would be a
>useful tool - at least for me or any experienced pilot.
>
>One day, I decided to find out just what Themi was
>capable of. I doggedly
>followed the blinking lights and discovered to my amazement
>that it was
>unerringly correct. Often, my resposnes to bumps and
>beeps would have been
>different than Themi indicated.
>
>One must understand Themi does not look out the window.
>Using simple
>variometer and GPS signals, it only tells the pilot
>where the center of the
>lift was as experienced during the last turn.
>
>For this reason, I find Themi most valuable when there
>are no clouds, or
>iwhen low and disassociated from the clouds. At these
>times, Themi is
>invaluable.
>
>Themi uses two bright LED lights to signal when to
>steepen, shallow turns or
>fly straight to the better lift. When the pilot is
>centering correctly,
>there are no light signals. No distracting audio, nothing
>to distract the
>pilot. There is no reason to look anywhere except outside
>the glider,
>observing conditions outside for visual clues and collision
>avoidance.
>
>The trend towards devices inside the cockpit which
>can be distracting, and
>often provide lots of 'interesting' information rather
>than the few things a
>pilot really needs to know is an important issue when
>considering adding any
>device to your cockpit.
>
>More information about Themi can be found on our web
>site.
>
>Tom Knauff
>Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
>www.eglider.org
>
>
>

[Stewart Kissel]

Thanks for the input and also private emails on this
subject...

I would offer this as sort of a summary from what I
have read, far from it for me to be any sort of expert,
just my two cents.

It appears most pilots using either device are experienced
at thermalling...so these devices are used to aid,
rather then driving the effort. In particular the
idea to keep eyes-out of the cockpit, obviously (I
think) the idea of using these in a gaggle is unwise.
Other gliders make better indicators of the core.

As far a cost and logistics...one is just an upgrade
of software. So those already running WinPilot probably
have the less-painless option.

However, it appears the THEMI device is also an IGC
approved logger...so if true this may give an option
for non-Winpilot types.

I will wait and watch how these products are used,
if I wait long enough, I can usually upgrade my panel
using the leftovers from the 1V5 mob :)

[Eric Greenwell]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

> As far a cost and logistics...one is just an upgrade
> of software. So those already running WinPilot probably
> have the less-painless option.
>
> However, it appears the THEMI device is also an IGC
> approved logger...so if true this may give an option
> for non-Winpilot types.

What would be really interesting is use the Themi as your IGC logger and
drive WinPilot with it. The two could be compared directly - that would
be an interesting article for Soaring, or a presentation at a convention.

If someone will loan me a Themi, and someone loan me Winpilot, I'd be
glad to do the testing and write the article. I'm serious, but I'm not
holding my breath, either!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[John Galloway]

It seems odd to me that the THEMI has no Means of Propulsion
sensor.

John Galloway

At 19:30 28 January 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>> As far a cost and logistics...one is just an upgrade
>> of software. So those already running WinPilot probably
>> have the less-painless option.
>>
>> However, it appears the THEMI device is also an IGC
>> approved logger...so if true this may give an option
>> for non-Winpilot types.
>
>What would be really interesting is use the Themi as
>your IGC logger and
>drive WinPilot with it. The two could be compared directly
>- that would
>be an interesting article for Soaring, or a presentation
>at a convention.
>
>If someone will loan me a Themi, and someone loan me
>Winpilot, I'd be
>glad to do the testing and write the article. I'm serious,
>but I'm not
>holding my breath, either!
>
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>

[Eric Greenwell]

John Galloway wrote:
> It seems odd to me that the THEMI has no Means of Propulsion
> sensor.

That is unfortunate for me, since I could not use it for an IGC logger,
and it's only value would be as thermalling aid.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[John Galloway]

At 00:00 30 January 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>John Galloway wrote:
>> It seems odd to me that the THEMI has no Means of
>>Propulsion
>> sensor.
>
>That is unfortunate for me, since I could not use it
>for an IGC logger,
>and it's only value would be as thermalling aid.
>
>Eric Greenwell

Me too. Many motor/ turbo gliders will already have
hardware and functions similar to that in the THEMI
box already. The THEMI cost is quite high and the
extra value to MGs is just for the centering software.
You would think that other computer/GPS systems such
as LX7000, Borgelt B50/B2000/Volklogger, Cambridge
302 etc could include a thermal centering algorithm
and 2 LEDs as an option that would be less expensive
and also save extra installation and behind panel space
compared with the THEMI.

Having spent some time looking at the THEMI site the
use of the 2 LEDS seems quite simple and I wouldn't
mind trying one if it either gave me an extra noise-sensor-equippe
d IGC logger or cost a lot less.

John Galloway

[bumper]

I have WinPilot Pro *and* a Themi. I can find thermals even when there
aren't any!

Okay, maybe not, but I'll offer this:

Both work as advertised and usually, but not always, agree with each other.
When first encountering lift, the Themi gives useful centering info before
WinPilot.

The Themi also remembers where previous thermals are, and even appears to
compensate for thermal wind drift with altitude when calculating this. As
you are approaching a previously used thermal, even at a different altitude,
the Themi will direct you towards it with remarkable accuracy.

I find both easy to use and intuitive, but the nod goes to Themi for
requiring almost zero in-cockpit looking.

All that said, if I already had Winpilot Pro, purchasing a Themi wouldn't
make much sense (I had the Themi first).

bumper

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> John Galloway wrote:
>> It seems odd to me that the THEMI has no Means of Propulsion
>> sensor.
>
> That is unfortunate for me, since I could not use it for an IGC logger,
> and it's only value would be as thermalling aid.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State
> USA