"Flying" your glider on the ground after a landout during athunderstorm or alternatives?

[Charles Ethridge]

Hi, everyone.

I searched but couldn't find the posts just now, but I think I remember reading posts from some of you who said that you have successfully "flown" your glider on the ground in a thunderstorm after a landout.

Having been a CFI and charter pilot in Nebraska, I'm quite familiar with landing and taxiing in very high winds (50-60 mph one day in Wichita in a Cessna 150 - basically flying the plane on the ground)

Since I haven't read about this technique in any of my glidering books, I got curious about what exactly is your technique.

In powered planes, one can use the engine to stay in place, but with a glider, assuming that you do not have a hammer and a "claw" ground tie-down to tie down the nose of the glider, wouldn't the strong wind move you backwards, perhaps breaking the tail assembly?

And if you get lifted off by a gust, couldn't that technique prove deadly?

But then if that technique is inherently dangerous, what is a less dangerous technique? Quartering the glider into the wind and sitting on the upwind wing? I don't remember reading that one either in any of my glidering books. For that matter, I don't remember reading about ANY approaching thunderstorm landout techniques in any of my glidering books.

What have you done in this situation that has worked out well...and not?

Ben

[Steve Koerner]

Since gliders have much less drag than airplanes you have better odds of staying put with just the wheel brake. You need to maintain sufficient stick forward contact with the ground. Wind at ground level is especially turbulent and tumbly so this is certainly not a safe thing to be doing; it's easy to visualize that stick and rudder could be overwhelmed with dire consequences if conditions get bad enough. The problem is that if you land in very strong wind, it can be your only option until things settle down. Thankfully, I haven't been in this situation in several decades. Wave flying can get you there too.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 7:58:43 AM UTC-6, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi, everyone.
>
> I searched but couldn't find the posts just now, but I think I remember reading posts from some of you who said that you have successfully "flown" your glider on the ground in a thunderstorm after a landout.
>
> Having been a CFI and charter pilot in Nebraska, I'm quite familiar with landing and taxiing in very high winds (50-60 mph one day in Wichita in a Cessna 150 - basically flying the plane on the ground)
>
> Since I haven't read about this technique in any of my glidering books, I got curious about what exactly is your technique.
>
> In powered planes, one can use the engine to stay in place, but with a glider, assuming that you do not have a hammer and a "claw" ground tie-down to tie down the nose of the glider, wouldn't the strong wind move you backwards, perhaps breaking the tail assembly?
>
> And if you get lifted off by a gust, couldn't that technique prove deadly?
>
> But then if that technique is inherently dangerous, what is a less dangerous technique? Quartering the glider into the wind and sitting on the upwind wing? I don't remember reading that one either in any of my glidering books. For that matter, I don't remember reading about ANY approaching thunderstorm landout techniques in any of my glidering books.
>
> What have you done in this situation that has worked out well...and not?
>
> Ben

Several years ago, we had quite a spectacular front roar out of Wyoming into Colorado. The winds were 90mph near the glider port and dropped gradually to farther east to 65mph were I was in Greeley, CO, playing baseball with the Boy Scout troop on a father/son outing. I got a call on my cell. A club member in the 1-34 had been at 14,000 MSL (~8500 AGL) near Fort Collins and attempted to get back to Owl Canyon before the front arrived. He landed about four miles south in a field. He didn't have the club's number in his phone. I got his location and called the club and gave them his number.. He stayed in the glider as it probably would have been much worse, and surely more dangerous, to try and exit it rather than to 'ground fly' it. The winds were dropping as a crew from the club hooked up a trailer and went to get him. The property owner did walk out of the glider and asked if he needed help and I think helped the crew get into the field. Back in Greeley, we kept everyone under the shelter as a lot of large limbs were departing the mature trees.

Frank Whiteley

[JS[_5_]]

Had to do that once in Australia.
Visible downburst the other side of Keepit. Threw the flight computer info out the window.
Landed the Nimbus 3 in a big paddock (field), Hoped for an aero retrieve when it calmed down. Gave that idea up when another thunderstorm changed course.
Flew the glider through the storm, canopy completely fogged.
The main gear dug quite a hole while rotating like a weather vane.
It wasn't difficult or particularly scary. Call it interesting.
We carried the wing tips, outer panels and horizontal to the trailer, but with less weight we still couldn't move the fuselage / inner panels. Left it on wing stands (plastic bags over the exposed parts) and got it out the next morning.
A mud guard / fender on the main wheel is counterproductive in a muddy field!
Jim


On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 6:58:43 AM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi, everyone.
>
> I searched but couldn't find the posts just now, but I think I remember reading posts from some of you who said that you have successfully "flown" your glider on the ground in a thunderstorm after a landout.
>
> Having been a CFI and charter pilot in Nebraska, I'm quite familiar with landing and taxiing in very high winds (50-60 mph one day in Wichita in a Cessna 150 - basically flying the plane on the ground)
>
> Since I haven't read about this technique in any of my glidering books, I got curious about what exactly is your technique.
>
> In powered planes, one can use the engine to stay in place, but with a glider, assuming that you do not have a hammer and a "claw" ground tie-down to tie down the nose of the glider, wouldn't the strong wind move you backwards, perhaps breaking the tail assembly?
>
> And if you get lifted off by a gust, couldn't that technique prove deadly?
>
> But then if that technique is inherently dangerous, what is a less dangerous technique? Quartering the glider into the wind and sitting on the upwind wing? I don't remember reading that one either in any of my glidering books. For that matter, I don't remember reading about ANY approaching thunderstorm landout techniques in any of my glidering books.
>
> What have you done in this situation that has worked out well...and not?
>
> Ben

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 03 Jun 2019 06:58:40 -0700, Charles Ethridge wrote:

> What have you done in this situation that has worked out well...and not?
>
I landed out in a Pegase on a local airfield 19 km from home, shortly
before a strongish rain squall blew through, so turned the glider
crosswind, with the upwind wing tip on the ground and sat on the tip
until it had all blown through.

Got wet, but had no problems at all with the Peg trying to rotate or blow
away. In that attitude the tailplane may even have given some extra down-
force on the (rubber) tailskid.

After the squall had gone our tug came in and towed me out.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[son_of_flubber]

For the few folks that've not seen it, here's how the gliders and towplanes handled 55 knot gusts at the US Air Force Academy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_WmjWAGkLI

I'd like to hear what they plan to do the next time this happens (if they're unable to avoid the situation).

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Never been there....hope I am never am......
Closest was racing a storm to home field in a sailplane.
Had a treeline about 45* to surface wind.
Landed, "taxied" towards trees (near trailers), sat in cockpit until storm passed.
I was sorta in tree windshadow, waited until cell passed.

If I was stuck in a worse spot, I would likely do......

Stick full forward.
Full wheel brake (may be covered by next on the list)....
Full dive brakes.
If flapped, full negative flaps......
Hope I am sorta pointed into the wind......

Hope for the best.......

If wrong heading.....use "cross wind controls" from the AIM to make the best of it.....

[[email protected]]

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 9:58:43 AM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi, everyone.
>
> I searched but couldn't find the posts just now, but I think I remember reading posts from some of you who said that you have successfully "flown" your glider on the ground in a thunderstorm after a landout.
>
> Having been a CFI and charter pilot in Nebraska, I'm quite familiar with landing and taxiing in very high winds (50-60 mph one day in Wichita in a Cessna 150 - basically flying the plane on the ground)
>
> Since I haven't read about this technique in any of my glidering books, I got curious about what exactly is your technique.
>
> In powered planes, one can use the engine to stay in place, but with a glider, assuming that you do not have a hammer and a "claw" ground tie-down to tie down the nose of the glider, wouldn't the strong wind move you backwards, perhaps breaking the tail assembly?
>
> And if you get lifted off by a gust, couldn't that technique prove deadly?
>
> But then if that technique is inherently dangerous, what is a less dangerous technique? Quartering the glider into the wind and sitting on the upwind wing? I don't remember reading that one either in any of my glidering books. For that matter, I don't remember reading about ANY approaching thunderstorm landout techniques in any of my glidering books.
>
> What have you done in this situation that has worked out well...and not?
>
> Ben

My 2 worst ones were handled in different ways:
#1 at Littlefield TX involved running along the storm until it was hopeless, then turning downwind to get away and pick a field. On final I had about 20MPH ground speed. The gust front hit less than a minute after touchdown. I stayed in with full brakes and hoped not to get blown over. I resolved not to do that again.
#2 at Mifflin. I got on the ground with about 3 minutes before the gust front. I turned the glider 90 degrees to the wind with the brakes tied open and laid on the upwind wing. The rain that came was the coldest rain I think I ever felt. Gusts were over 50 in that one. It was uncomfortable, but I'm convinced it was safer. My other ship, flown by one of the juniors I was sponsoring, ended up about 30 miles away with an uneventful landing and easy retrieve. He did it best.
FWIW
UH

[Waveguru]

I landed my open Jantar on a paved runway in 60mph winds after a wave flight. I didn't dare get out of the glider until help arrived. With that much wind, there was no other traffic trying to land. I held wings level, held the brake, and called my crew. On my landing, I had rolled past the taxiway I needed to take to get behind the hangars where we might have a chance to disassemble. The wind was right down the runway and while I waited, I wondered if I could back taxi to the desired taxiway. Sure enough, I let off the brake and slowly backed up to the taxiway. I was able to steer the glider easily. I kept the flaps negative, and the spoilers open with the stick forward enough to keep from lifting off the ground. Has anybody else back taxied in their glider?

Boggs

[RR]

First a story that provides some background for my decision to fly through the storm on the ground.

I was sailing before I was a glider pilot. I was in Plymouth Ma, and was about the take a launch out to our boat, but the approaching weather look realy bad. Very dark, and as it got closer a viable green color in the clouds.. No wind yet, but we could hear thunder and see lightning. As we were about to step onto the launch, a told the captain of the open launch, we would wait this out on shore. As we got back to the club house it hit with a vengeance. One inch hail, 50kt winds, but most important for this story, the flag held straight out, slowly wrapped once around the flag pole over the course of the 5 to 10min event. So at full strength the wind rotated a full 360 deg.

Fast forward 15 years, and I am returning to Mifflin from the west, dodging thunder storms. I was almost home, but had 7 miles of unlandable terrain between me and home. I decided better to land now. That is when I found the airport looked like all the other perfect 4000 foot long fields. Anyway, found it, and whether it offered any protection or not, I did not want to be out side in the plentiful lightning. Also I knew the wind direction could change. So I stayed in the glider. I kept on the brakes, reflexed the flaps (304cz) did not put on the dive breaks (in the 304 full dive breaks.. puts landing flap in) and mostly kept the nose down with the stick. Over the course of the event, the wind rotated about 120 deg. I could keep it into the wind easly. It worked out well, but I would never want to repeat it.

Shifting back to the sailing story, we went out to our boat right after the storm to check for damage. We were greated with an inch of hail accumulation the deck, but all else was fine. I went below and turned on the radio, to hear some poor soul in the Cape cod canal wanting to know if there was traffic (read BIG trafic) as his viability was near zero.

"Cape cod canal traffic... ouch... this is sailing vessel... ouh... bla bla, please... ouch ... advise of any traffic... ****..." as he tried to dodge the hail on deck...

[BobW]

On 6/3/2019 7:58 AM, Charles Ethridge wrote:

<Snip...>

> In powered planes, one can use the engine to stay in place, but with a
> glider, assuming that you do not have a hammer and a "claw" ground tie-down
> to tie down the nose of the glider, wouldn't the strong wind move you
> backwards, perhaps breaking the tail assembly?
>
> And if you get lifted off by a gust, couldn't that technique prove deadly?
>
> But then if that technique is inherently dangerous, what is a less
> dangerous technique? Quartering the glider into the wind and sitting on
> the upwind wing? I don't remember reading that one either in any of my
> glidering books. For that matter, I don't remember reading about ANY
> approaching thunderstorm landout techniques in any of my glidering books.
>
> What have you done in this situation that has worked out well...and not?
Lotta good questions, lotta sortsa winds/sailplanes, & lotta useful techniques...

I distinguish between strong *shifty* (in a directional sense) winds, and
'merely' strong, directionally-steady, winds. In the absence of being tied
down, the latter are less problematic in my experience.

The short-form answer is: "What's best to do depends on the (ship) details."
(The devil is ALWAYS in the details!) F'r'example, 15-meter tail-dragging
glass is quite different from (say) a 1-26, or a 2-33, or a nose-dragging G-103.

In the inter-mountain west, shifty/gusty ground winds are common...as are
wingtips banging against the ground of unaccompanied, untied-down ships, at
every gliderport from which I've flown. In every case I've watched or known
the details of, the wingtip banging has been of ships whose upwind wing was
"held down" by a parachute or old tire. The early advice given to me was to
*always* weight the upwind wing. Well, when the upwind wing belongs to a 2-33
that decides to change wingtips, it's an attention-getting,
seriously-alarming, proposition! Less so for ships with higher wingloadings
and lower spars...but stil (IMO) ugly to watch/listen-to.

Having hopped into another club's 'tire-held-down' 2-33 and ground-flown-it
(for ~20 minutes) just before a gust front arrived, it proved no big
deal...though 'genuinely interesting' as the nose rotated against the skid
through an arc exceeding 30-degrees. Without someone in it, it would've almost
surely been transformed into the proverbial 'ball,' but I never felt there was
any risk of it ever being lifted into the air with me inside; I didn't use
spoilers continuously...tired arm muscles.

Eventually I came to believe it was better - for 15 meter glass, anyway - to
place the DOWNwind wingtip on the ground those times I opted to walk away from
my unattended ship, because - in a wingtip-rocking sense - the ship was more
stable. For the record I've never seen a ship in that configuration alter its
'baseline resting configuration.'

In any event, I put my thinking to the acid test for several hours after a
landout in straightline winds from a steady direction, varying from (maybe) 10
knots to (estimated) 35+ knots...strong enough to cause dust blizzards and a
fatal chain-reaction accident on a nearby interstate while I waited for my
crew. How strong were the winds? It was the only time I actually imagined it
might be possible to die from hypothermia in 90+ degree temperatures!

I'd landed (far from a phone in a pre-cell world) at a people-free airport.
Eventually deciding my choices were likely either to wait all night for the
winds to subside, or to attempt to initiate a retrieve before sunset, hunger
(and the fact it was Sunday afternoon and the home field was likely 'moving
toward desertion!') won out so I spent quality cockpit time planning my
cockpit exit and subsequent walk-away, the task spiced somewhat by the ship's
6-foot-long removable canopy. Exit-mission soon-enough accomplished without
unwanted excitement). I then turned the ship 90-degrees to the wind with the
upwind wing UP, flaps negative, left everything in the cockpit, found a nifty,
thru-wall-on-a-rotating-dealybob phone, called home and happily crawled into
the cab of a fuel truck to get out of the wind while awaiting rescue.

Subsequently, the hardest part of the derig wasn't the auto-tow the quarter
mile or so into the lee of some hangars, but the swirling gusts in said 'lee.'
The ship in the winds? Never budged, while I was comforted by fuel truck cab
and the Alfred E. Neuman philosophy of life ("What, me worry?").

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[[email protected]]

Back in the mid-1960s, we took a 1-26 over to the Cumberland, MD wave camp one weekend. The wind was fairly strong but I don't recall it swirling around that much. At lunchtime, we turned the glider so the wingtip pointed into the wind and tied it down securely. We were almost at the hut about 50 m away when I heard someone yell. When I spun around, the 1-26 was standing vertically on that wingtip. The swirling wind had picked it up and then laid it down on its back. I suspect the rotor was working that day.

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

So there I was, sitting in the old lobby at Cal City waiting for my little brother, Ken, to come back with our 1-26. Only, I was hoping he wouldn’t come back. In fact, I was making radio announcements, in the blind every 20 minutes or so, to warn him that the runway was IFR in blowing sand with 50-60 knot winds and that he needed to land somewhere else.
Just then a Mission Airlines employee runs into the lobby and says there’s a sailplane in their parking lot.
Mission airlines operated out of the big yellow hangar at Cal City. It sounds like a religious organization, and in a sense, I guess it was. Their business was flying explosives around.
Anyway, my little brother was the only one up flying that day, so I figured it must be him and followed airline employee back.
It was Ken, but he wasn’t in their parking lot. He was at the end of the street that leads to their parking lot, which was amazing considering the obstacles along the street and power lines above it. It was clear that he had helicoptered in vertically.
Apparently, he had been on the ground quite some time, with the brakes on and the stick forward, before someone stepped out of the back of the yellow hangar and noticed him. When I got there, he was still in the plane with half a dozen people holding on to it. While he remained in the cockpit (a stupid idea to be sure) the group of us walked the plane forward then lifted it up over the fence (a short fence, long before the words “airport” and “security” had ever been uttered in the same sentence) and onto the airport proper. We tied it down on the cable there before my brother got out.
It ends up, Ken never got my warnings about the wind because his radio quit working. When he got back to the airport and couldn’t see the runway, he decided to land along a perpendicular tiedown strip which was outside the main mass of blowing sand. Boy was that a dumb plan. You can’t land crosswind in those conditions.
The saving grace was that he picked a touchdown point and stuck to it. So, as he blew downwind, he ended up rotating into the wind. Hence the vertical approach to the street 100 yards east.
He had flown up to Bishop and back that day, but the radio wasn’t his only problem. When I asked how high he got, he said he got up to 27,000 feet passing Inyokern on his way north, but every time he checked the altimeter after that it still showed 27,000!
Mike Koerner

[[email protected]]

This is what you can do with a 70 km/h mistral:

https://youtu.be/fmVZodl5e6A

[AS]

On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 12:46:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> This is what you can do with a 70 km/h mistral:
>
> https://youtu.be/fmVZodl5e6A

No, sir - I swear, I have no idea how that flat spot got on that tire! ;-)

Uli
'AS'