SZD-56-2 Diana

[Yurek]

Hi Michel,

Concerning the pricing, it is obvious that a Ferrari performance can
not be sold with a Fiat price.
For details you should take a look on the site of US-dealer of Diana,
Jerry Zieba -> http://www.dianasailplanes.com/ or write to :


You will find the Diana-2 datas & performances, following the
constructors calculation, here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yankee-romeo/y-r/images/perfo.jpg
At this time they are in French, sorry ! But you can already have an
idea of it.

We can speak however about some performances, which were already
confirmed by first test flights.
The behavior at low speed was confirmed as being very well, Diana-2
proved that it may be hold until 60 km/h (32 knots). Seeing the images
from Bielsko, you can easily understand that with this full-size test
pilot, the glider was not at its minimal flying weight... (here a
short thought of those who seem to be obsessed with the small size of
cockpit, and the place which could eventually take theirs behind in
it).
The excellent maneuvrability was confirmed as well.

[Michel Talon]

Yurek > wrote:
> Hi Michel,
>
> Concerning the pricing, it is obvious that a Ferrari performance can
> not be sold with a Fiat price.

Sorry, but the main attraction of a glider built in Poland is that
the work force is much cheaper. I understand that the Diana uses high tech
materials, but this doesn't grant the privilege of charging Ferrari's prices.

> For details you should take a look on the site of US-dealer of Diana,
> Jerry Zieba -> http://www.dianasailplanes.com/ or write to :
>
>
> You will find the Diana-2 datas & performances, following the
> constructors calculation, here:
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yankee-romeo/y-r/images/perfo.jpg
> At this time they are in French, sorry ! But you can already have an
> idea of it.

I am French so i can read that. I had understood that the Diana 2 was able to
do 50/1 and perhaps 52/1 which is around 10 points better than the Discus,
hence so incredibly wonderful that i cannot even beleive it!

>
> We can speak however about some performances, which were already
> confirmed by first test flights.
> The behavior at low speed was confirmed as being very well, Diana-2
> proved that it may be hold until 60 km/h (32 knots). Seeing the images
> from Bielsko, you can easily understand that with this full-size test
> pilot, the glider was not at its minimal flying weight... (here a
> short thought of those who seem to be obsessed with the small size of
> cockpit, and the place which could eventually take theirs behind in
> it).
> The excellent maneuvrability was confirmed as well.

Yes, this says nothing about the propension to spin. People have discussed
thoroughly this subject here, let me say that if a glider has a confirmed
propension to spin, first people will be killed, and second, clubs will not
buy it, whatever its qualities in other domains. Clubs don't want to kill
their members, and lose their gliders. If the Diana happens to be both
expensive and dangerous, it will not sell, period.


--

Michel TALON

[Gary Evans]

Performance claims for a sailplane (all manufactures)
that has not been independently tested would best always
be taken with a grain of salt. I can recall none that
have lived up to factory claims when tested in real
conditions by a third party.

[Nolaminar]

There are variations, but I think you will find that many of the Polish
sailplanes tested pretty much as advertised. The Polish factories seem to be a
bit less caught up in brochuremanship.
GA

[André Somers]

Michel Talon wrote:

> Yes, this says nothing about the propension to spin. People have discussed
> thoroughly this subject here, let me say that if a glider has a confirmed
> propension to spin, first people will be killed, and second, clubs will
> not buy it, whatever its qualities in other domains. Clubs don't want to
> kill their members, and lose their gliders. If the Diana happens to be
> both expensive and dangerous, it will not sell, period.

Sure, like that is the only aspect clubs evaluate. How many clubs fly
Puchacz, Junior, DG-300? A lot. Do they spin? Yes, they do. And these are
only some gliders I have spun personally. I don't think they are dangerous
because they can spin, and considdering the number of clubs that fly these
gliders, neither do "the" clubs. If you do, why don't you buy yourself an
ASK21 and leave it at that?

André

[Michel Talon]

André Somers > wrote:
> Michel Talon wrote:
>
> > Yes, this says nothing about the propension to spin. People have discussed
> > thoroughly this subject here, let me say that if a glider has a confirmed
> > propension to spin, first people will be killed, and second, clubs will
> > not buy it, whatever its qualities in other domains. Clubs don't want to
> > kill their members, and lose their gliders. If the Diana happens to be
> > both expensive and dangerous, it will not sell, period.
>
> Sure, like that is the only aspect clubs evaluate. How many clubs fly
> Puchacz, Junior, DG-300? A lot. Do they spin? Yes, they do. And these are

I haven't seen a single one in the clubs i know, which are not small clubs.

> only some gliders I have spun personally. I don't think they are dangerous
> because they can spin, and considdering the number of clubs that fly these
> gliders, neither do "the" clubs. If you do, why don't you buy yourself an
> ASK21 and leave it at that?

Precisely what these clubs buy, ASK21, TwinAstirs and the like for the
beginners, Janus and DuoDiscus for cross country. Now it seems that you
haven't read the tons of posts about spin exercises in this same newsgroup,
or perhaps the DG300 video, somewhere in Germany that was floating around.
You are above that, this is for dummies and whimps, fine for you.

>
> André

--

Michel TALON

[John Doe]

At 12:30 29 January 2005, Michel Talon wrote:
>I haven't seen a single one in the clubs i know, which
>are not small clubs.

Well in the UK,

Puchaz : Booker, Hus Bos, Aboyne, Trent Valley, Kent
(Challock)

DG 300 : Sutton bank, Crown Service (Lasham based)

Junior : Booker, Hus Bos, Aboyne, Portmoak, Talgarth

And that's only the ones I'm aware of at the big(and
maybe one or two smaller) clubs.

[Andy Melville]

Camphill(home of the 1954 World Championships) 3 puchaz
and one Junior, wolds gliding 1 Puch and 1 Junior..etc
etc ...there are lots out there(including BGA Puch
At 16:00 29 January 2005, John Doe wrote:
>At 12:30 29 January 2005, Michel Talon wrote:
>>I haven't seen a single one in the clubs i know, which
>>are not small clubs.
>
>Well in the UK,
>
>Puchaz : Booker, Hus Bos, Aboyne, Trent Valley, Kent
>(Challock)
>
>DG 300 : Sutton bank, Crown Service (Lasham based)
>
>Junior : Booker, Hus Bos, Aboyne, Portmoak, Talgarth
>
>And that's only the ones I'm aware of at the big(and
>maybe one or two smaller) clubs.
>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

All SZD Bielsko gliders are very good. Since the factory became
privatized they are even better. Bottom line. And anybody who has any
doubts about it need to educate themselves. The German sailplane
industry is simply riding on their good reputation. And whoever is
comparing BMW to Honda they need to pause and think for a second....or
maybe 2....or whatever amount of time it takes. At the same time the
German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple. Do
you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros? Maybe in
Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this type of prices but
here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000 U.S. Dollars a
year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even less....and just
because of the income does this make those guys or gals less qualified
pilots? No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and adjust
the prices to the world level maybe we would have more pilots and those
factories could sell more sailplanes....and then maybe we could see
that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what they
fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
skills...in the mean time the SZD Bielsko is doing excellent job
keeping the prices of their sailplanes on more reasonable level and
anybody who has a problem with that should take golfing..not flying.

[Jancsika]

Maybe I'm wrong but SZD55's price is at the same level as a DG303 or
Discus CS.
LS8, Discus2 and ASW28 is almost a different class again.

/Jancsika

wrote:
> All SZD Bielsko gliders are very good. Since the factory became
> privatized they are even better. Bottom line. And anybody who has any
> doubts about it need to educate themselves. The German sailplane
> industry is simply riding on their good reputation. And whoever is
> comparing BMW to Honda they need to pause and think for a second....or
> maybe 2....or whatever amount of time it takes. At the same time the
> German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple. Do
> you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros? Maybe in
> Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this type of prices but
> here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000 U.S. Dollars a
> year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even less....and just
> because of the income does this make those guys or gals less qualified
> pilots? No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and adjust
> the prices to the world level maybe we would have more pilots and those
> factories could sell more sailplanes....and then maybe we could see
> that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what they
> fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
> skills...in the mean time the SZD Bielsko is doing excellent job
> keeping the prices of their sailplanes on more reasonable level and
> anybody who has a problem with that should take golfing..not flying.
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On 31 Jan 2005 09:24:22 -0800, wrote:


> At the same time the
>German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple. Do
>you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros?

How many 65.000 Euro gliders have been sold and how many 25.000$
(PW-5, Russia, et cetera)? The low-priced gliders are a very minor
fraction.

If raw prices of the gliders were what was killing the sport,
low-priced gliders would be selling a lot more units than they
actually do. But they don't.


>Maybe in
>Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this type of prices but
>here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000 U.S. Dollars a
>year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even less....and just
>because of the income does this make those guys or gals less qualified
>pilots?

The explanation has been mentioned a lot of times now:
CLUBS. WINCH LAUNCHING.

It's very hard to spend more than $1.000 in Germany per year for
gliding if you choose to stick to club gliders. In fact, in my club
(and most other clubs in Germany) it's a lot cheaper.

Not to mention that usually you are buying used gliders here if you
decided to have an own one. An ASW-15 costs 15.000 Euros including a
re-finishing that makes it as good as new. There is absolutely no need
to buy a new 65.000 Euros glider - for 20.000 you get an ASW-20, for
example.


>No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and adjust
>the prices to the world level maybe we would have more pilots and those
>factories could sell more sailplanes...
It's not a question of being realistic - it's a question of sheer
production cost and quality.


>and then maybe we could see
>that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what they
>fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
>skills...

Fly club class - and look which gliders are dominating there. The hot
gliders for club class due to their Index are Libelles... 8.000 Euros
per piece here. Any questions left? :)


BTW: Most of the really active members in German clubs are students
with really low income.



Bye
Andreas

[Ray Lovinggood]

Andreas has a point. Of course, I'm biased, since
I used to belong to his club.

The winch should make soaring more affordable. But
a problem I see for clubs such as ours is that we operate
from a public use airport. We are guests on the field
and have been there for over 18 years now. But I doubt
if we would be allowed to perform any type of ground
launch method. Plus, not using a tow plane would reduce
the amount of fuel we buy from the FBO to nothing.
I think our relations with the FBO are enhanced by
us buying fuel, renting ramp space, getting some maintainence,
etc.

But to have a rope or cable up in the airspace is probably
something our airport folks wouldn't want to contend
with.

Sure, our own private field would be nice and would
be even nicer if there were enough room for safe ground
launches. But I don't see that happening with our
club.

Andreas points to the youth in his club. It was the
same way in the mid Eighties when I was a member there.
At least the field wasn't too far out in the boonies
and those too young to have driver's licenses could
ride their bikes there or get a ride with friends or
parents.

In America, it seems the glider fields are out in the
boonies and getting to them requires a car. Club members
come from all over and sometimes, getting a ride isn't
so easy. Parents have to come out and they might not
be willing to spend all day at the field.

Also, the youth members (me too) enjoyed driving the
Lepo when it wasn't our turn to fly. They were too
young to drive on the road, but that didn't prevent
them from driving the Lepo.

(Bonus points to those who know 'Lepo.')

Yea, I enjoyed the winch launching at Andreas' club.
Always a blast! And it was very inexpensive.

Ray Lovinggood
Winchless in Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


At 17:31 01 February 2005, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On 31 Jan 2005 09:24:22 -0800,
>wrote:
>
>
>> At the same time the
>>German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain
>>and simple. Do
>>you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros?
>>
>
>How many 65.000 Euro gliders have been sold and how
>many 25.000$
>(PW-5, Russia, et cetera)? The low-priced gliders are
>a very minor
>fraction.
>
>If raw prices of the gliders were what was killing
>the sport,
>low-priced gliders would be selling a lot more units
>than they
>actually do. But they don't.
>
>
>>Maybe in
>>Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this
>>type of prices but
>>here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000
>>U.S. Dollars a
>>year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even
>>less....and just
>>because of the income does this make those guys or
>>gals less qualified
>>pilots?
>
>The explanation has been mentioned a lot of times now:
>CLUBS. WINCH LAUNCHING.
>
>It's very hard to spend more than $1.000 in Germany
>per year for
>gliding if you choose to stick to club gliders. In
>fact, in my club
>(and most other clubs in Germany) it's a lot cheaper.
>
>Not to mention that usually you are buying used gliders
>here if you
>decided to have an own one. An ASW-15 costs 15.000
>Euros including a
>re-finishing that makes it as good as new. There is
>absolutely no need
>to buy a new 65.000 Euros glider - for 20.000 you get
>an ASW-20, for
>example.
>
>
>>No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and
>>adjust
>>the prices to the world level maybe we would have more
>>pilots and those
>>factories could sell more sailplanes...
>It's not a question of being realistic - it's a question
>of sheer
>production cost and quality.
>
>
>>and then maybe we could see
>>that pilots with lower income, which translates directly
>>to what they
>>fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but
>>the pilot
>>skills...
>
>Fly club class - and look which gliders are dominating
>there. The hot
>gliders for club class due to their Index are Libelles...
>8.000 Euros
>per piece here. Any questions left? :)
>
>
>BTW: Most of the really active members in German clubs
>are students
>with really low income.
>
>
>
>Bye
>Andreas
>

[Andreas Maurer]

Hi Ray,

On 1 Feb 2005 17:34:41 GMT, Ray Lovinggood
> wrote:


>In America, it seems the glider fields are out in the
>boonies and getting to them requires a car. Club members
>come from all over and sometimes, getting a ride isn't
>so easy. Parents have to come out and they might not
>be willing to spend all day at the field.

I guess THIS is the point why soaring is an old-mens' sport especially
in the US - the distances.

Even in Germany some clubs don't have a field close at hand - and
these clubs usually have significant trouble to find new young
members. I certainly would not spend four hours per weekend in the car
to go gliding.

A couple of years ago I stll used to think that all you US guys had to
do was to start a gliding club similar to Germany examples, but
nowadays I have learned that structures in the US are on most places
too different from Europe to allow such a club to be run successfully
on the long term.


>Also, the youth members (me too) enjoyed driving the
>Lepo when it wasn't our turn to fly. They were too
>young to drive on the road, but that didn't prevent
>them from driving the Lepo.
>
>(Bonus points to those who know 'Lepo.')

You should have mentionend that some of these kids actually started to
prefer driving (and crashing) the Lepo over flying... <vbg>




Bye
Andreas

[[email protected]]

No, that is not case. LS8, Discus 2 and ASW28 are standard class
gliders just like the SZD55.
Jancsika wrote:
> Maybe I'm wrong but SZD55's price is at the same level as a DG303 or
> Discus CS.
> LS8, Discus2 and ASW28 is almost a different class again.
>
> /Jancsika
>
> wrote:
> > All SZD Bielsko gliders are very good. Since the factory became
> > privatized they are even better. Bottom line. And anybody who has
any
> > doubts about it need to educate themselves. The German sailplane
> > industry is simply riding on their good reputation. And whoever is
> > comparing BMW to Honda they need to pause and think for a
second....or
> > maybe 2....or whatever amount of time it takes. At the same time
the
> > German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple.
Do
> > you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros? Maybe in
> > Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this type of prices
but
> > here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000 U.S.
Dollars a
> > year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even less....and
just
> > because of the income does this make those guys or gals less
qualified
> > pilots? No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and
adjust
> > the prices to the world level maybe we would have more pilots and
those
> > factories could sell more sailplanes....and then maybe we could see
> > that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what
they
> > fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
> > skills...in the mean time the SZD Bielsko is doing excellent job
> > keeping the prices of their sailplanes on more reasonable level and
> > anybody who has a problem with that should take golfing..not
flying.
> >

[Jancsika]

Just fly one and you will see what I mean...

/Jancsika

wrote:
> No, that is not case. LS8, Discus 2 and ASW28 are standard class
> gliders just like the SZD55.
> Jancsika wrote:
>
>>Maybe I'm wrong but SZD55's price is at the same level as a DG303 or
>>Discus CS.
>> LS8, Discus2 and ASW28 is almost a different class again.
>>
>>/Jancsika

[Bert Willing]

I've flown for years on a public airport (Braunschweig) in Germany with a
CTR, jet aircrafts, parachuters and 4 double-drum winches operated by 5
clubs. Winch launch was the standard method, aerotow something we did once
in a while.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ray Lovinggood" > a écrit dans le message
de news: ...
> Andreas has a point. Of course, I'm biased, since
> I used to belong to his club.
>
> The winch should make soaring more affordable. But
> a problem I see for clubs such as ours is that we operate
> from a public use airport. We are guests on the field
> and have been there for over 18 years now. But I doubt
> if we would be allowed to perform any type of ground
> launch method. Plus, not using a tow plane would reduce
> the amount of fuel we buy from the FBO to nothing.
> I think our relations with the FBO are enhanced by
> us buying fuel, renting ramp space, getting some maintainence,
> etc.
>
> But to have a rope or cable up in the airspace is probably
> something our airport folks wouldn't want to contend
> with.
>
> Sure, our own private field would be nice and would
> be even nicer if there were enough room for safe ground
> launches. But I don't see that happening with our
> club.
>
> Andreas points to the youth in his club. It was the
> same way in the mid Eighties when I was a member there.
> At least the field wasn't too far out in the boonies
> and those too young to have driver's licenses could
> ride their bikes there or get a ride with friends or
> parents.
>
> In America, it seems the glider fields are out in the
> boonies and getting to them requires a car. Club members
> come from all over and sometimes, getting a ride isn't
> so easy. Parents have to come out and they might not
> be willing to spend all day at the field.
>
> Also, the youth members (me too) enjoyed driving the
> Lepo when it wasn't our turn to fly. They were too
> young to drive on the road, but that didn't prevent
> them from driving the Lepo.
>
> (Bonus points to those who know 'Lepo.')
>
> Yea, I enjoyed the winch launching at Andreas' club.
> Always a blast! And it was very inexpensive.
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Winchless in Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
>
> At 17:31 01 February 2005, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>On 31 Jan 2005 09:24:22 -0800,
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>> At the same time the
>>>German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain
>>>and simple. Do
>>>you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros?
>>>
>>
>>How many 65.000 Euro gliders have been sold and how
>>many 25.000$
>>(PW-5, Russia, et cetera)? The low-priced gliders are
>>a very minor
>>fraction.
>>
>>If raw prices of the gliders were what was killing
>>the sport,
>>low-priced gliders would be selling a lot more units
>>than they
>>actually do. But they don't.
>>
>>
>>>Maybe in
>>>Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this
>>>type of prices but
>>>here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000
>>>U.S. Dollars a
>>>year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even
>>>less....and just
>>>because of the income does this make those guys or
>>>gals less qualified
>>>pilots?
>>
>>The explanation has been mentioned a lot of times now:
>>CLUBS. WINCH LAUNCHING.
>>
>>It's very hard to spend more than $1.000 in Germany
>>per year for
>>gliding if you choose to stick to club gliders. In
>>fact, in my club
>>(and most other clubs in Germany) it's a lot cheaper.
>>
>>Not to mention that usually you are buying used gliders
>>here if you
>>decided to have an own one. An ASW-15 costs 15.000
>>Euros including a
>>re-finishing that makes it as good as new. There is
>>absolutely no need
>>to buy a new 65.000 Euros glider - for 20.000 you get
>>an ASW-20, for
>>example.
>>
>>
>>>No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and
>>>adjust
>>>the prices to the world level maybe we would have more
>>>pilots and those
>>>factories could sell more sailplanes...
>>It's not a question of being realistic - it's a question
>>of sheer
>>production cost and quality.
>>
>>
>>>and then maybe we could see
>>>that pilots with lower income, which translates directly
>>>to what they
>>>fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but
>>>the pilot
>>>skills...
>>
>>Fly club class - and look which gliders are dominating
>>there. The hot
>>gliders for club class due to their Index are Libelles...
>>8.000 Euros
>>per piece here. Any questions left? :)
>>
>>
>>BTW: Most of the really active members in German clubs
>>are students
>>with really low income.
>>
>>
>>
>>Bye
>>Andreas
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

I have flown all of them.
Jancsika wrote:
> Just fly one and you will see what I mean...
>
> /Jancsika
>
> wrote:
> > No, that is not case. LS8, Discus 2 and ASW28 are standard class
> > gliders just like the SZD55.
> > Jancsika wrote:
> >
> >>Maybe I'm wrong but SZD55's price is at the same level as a DG303
or
> >>Discus CS.
> >> LS8, Discus2 and ASW28 is almost a different class again.
> >>
> >>/Jancsika

[Dieter Kleinschmidt]

Bert Willing wrote:
> I've flown for years on a public airport (Braunschweig) in Germany with a
> CTR, jet aircrafts, parachuters and 4 double-drum winches operated by 5
> clubs. Winch launch was the standard method, aerotow something we did once
> in a while.
>
But Braunschweig has a wide grass area parallel to the paved runway.
This does not apply to most public airfields in the US.

[Bert Willing]

Right - putting a winch cable onto a concrete runway which is used by
commercial traffic would push the limits a little bit.

But I rather was commenting on winch launch from controlled airfield.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Dieter Kleinschmidt" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Bert Willing wrote:
>> I've flown for years on a public airport (Braunschweig) in Germany with a
>> CTR, jet aircrafts, parachuters and 4 double-drum winches operated by 5
>> clubs. Winch launch was the standard method, aerotow something we did
>> once in a while.
>>
> But Braunschweig has a wide grass area parallel to the paved runway. This
> does not apply to most public airfields in the US.

[Robert Ehrlich]

Bert Willing wrote:
>
> Right - putting a winch cable onto a concrete runway which is used by
> commercial traffic would push the limits a little bit.
>

But the winch cable doesn't need to be on the runway except a very
short length at the glider end, the cable may be at some angle from
the runway so that most of it and the winch itself are out of the
runway. Of course runway lights if present would the be a problem,
but it should work fine for unlighted runways.

[VHZ]

;247963]I have flown all of them.
Jancsika wrote:[color=blue][i]
Just fly one and you will see what I mean...


Hello Jacek,
Have been flying both of them too - means Diana 1 and Diana 2

VHZ

[VHZ]

All SZD Bielsko gliders are very good. Since the factory became
privatized they are even better. Bottom line. And anybody who has any
doubts about it need to educate themselves. The German sailplane
industry is simply riding on their good reputation. And whoever is
comparing BMW to Honda they need to pause and think for a second....or
maybe 2....or whatever amount of time it takes. At the same time the
German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple. Do
you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros? Maybe in
Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this type of prices but
here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000 U.S. Dollars a
year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even less....and just
because of the income does this make those guys or gals less qualified
pilots? No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and adjust
the prices to the world level maybe we would have more pilots and those
factories could sell more sailplanes....and then maybe we could see
that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what they
fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
skills...in the mean time the SZD Bielsko is doing excellent job
keeping the prices of their sailplanes on more reasonable level and
anybody who has a problem with that should take golfing..not flying.



- Sorry Jacek, your PROPAGANDA is not valid...

you wrote:
"SZD Bielsko gliders are very good. Since the factory became
privatized they are even better. Bottom line. And anybody who has any
doubts about it need to educate themselves."

Education for you Jacek:

New SZD = past Diana designer + past SZD PZL director + past SZD PZL workers
Why they should be better? Not idea from this above. Only personal experience... They are not better. The some thinking as in past.
Customer is important till this moment when he pay for product....

You wrote:
"The German sailplane
industry is simply riding on their good reputation. And whoever is
comparing BMW to Honda they need to pause and think for a second....or
maybe 2....or whatever amount of time it takes. At the same time the
German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple.

- Who is keeping prices where? Where will be Ferrari without factory reputation? I think on standard price...
- Who and why is killing gliding sport? I don't think that it should be price. It is only producer's responsibility building not only product price. It is valid not only for gliding producers and products. Good product means also responsible producer and it can means corresponding price...
- A producer can kill only him self or pilot - not gliding sport.

Diana 2 cost:

____________with trailer
(you can get also one very special with producer's design)

____________and instruments

____________ PRICE is 120 thousands Euro with Polish VAT (22%), because only Polish seller
(May be it included bonus of customers' fun with it? So suggest put up this price for customer's wasting time and financial worse)


REALITY:
new ventus 2 costs less
new asw27 costs less


Product Diana 2 is not well hand made with a lot of "green banana" design and flying characteristic syndromes.

No warranty claim possible.
(producer is deaf to hear about production faults, according him they are customer's faults. - May be it means customer's fault that he was buying it)

No EASA Certificate till yet if promised by producer form start 2006 year.
SZD product is without producer's responsibility - only experimental category

- But may be you can still decide to buy a "Ferrari"


You are Jacek writing:
"...and then maybe we could see
that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what they
fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
skills...in the mean time the SZD Bielsko is doing excellent job
keeping the prices of their sailplanes on more reasonable level and
anybody who has a problem with that should take golfing..not flying."

- Jacek. It means if a customer spend all his money and will find out that glider is not flying (because can't fly his glider before payment is done and have chance to find out production faults when he is owner) have to put glider on the store and start golfing? Or have to accept offer from producer's financial director and sell back to producer glider for second hand price and keep producer from customer's harm payment reminiscent gliding on golf course?

Are you not only Polish with tape on your eyes who is proudly prising Polish product?

Please, jump on the ground, put tape out...

_____________________________________________

Few pictures here http://picasaweb.google.com/diana2.szd56.2.vh.vhz
and will put more and more

Some discussion at
http://www.szybowce.com/news/article.php?id=29136&group=ava.szybowce#29136

http://www.szybowce.com/news/article.php?id=28729&group=ava.szybowce#28729

Forum is working back in correct link only with changes of the date ;)
http://www.szybowce.com/news/article.php?id=28050&group=ava.szybowce#28050

From here all ready
http://www.aviationbanter.com/tags/diana2/
http://www.aviationbanter.com/tags/diana/

_______________________________________________

I don't wish to anyone experience with this product and his producer/designer.

Hana

[VHZ]

Hello to all,

starting blog about Diana 2 s/n3 VH-VHZ case at http://diana2-vhvhz.blogspot.com/

Sorry for my not best English.... hope main thinks will be understandably.

[VHZ]

Here is Pik-20 measurement by Dick Johnson from past.

The some factory,
the some technical control,
the some workers, the some design,
the some...
...and differences

Gliding production is not inwardness serial production if with serial numbers "operate".

http://www.appledor.net/tsillas/soaring/pikt7/pikt7.htm

Prototype was excellent,
s/n 8 was abortive,
s/n 145 was great
later model excellent...

VHZ