SZD-56-2 Diana

[Yurek]

Sorry Michel, but I have to disagree completely with you. Polish
products (gliders as well, as other stuff) HAS NOT to be cheap,
because they are Polish ! They only have to be competitive...
That's why, there are some not expensive Polish gliders, like Junior
or Puchacz, which have an unbeatable price-to-quality ratio. And that
is why, German or English clubs are buying these gliders...
But with Diana it is an other story. IT IS a Ferrari of the air, and
the only reason for pilots to buy it, will be its performance ! That
is its competitiveness. You have some difficulty to belive this
performance, but you do require already Diana to be cheap ! You're
joking, I guess !
I am not sure that clubs will buy it, they will be rather the private
owners, which will have a strong interest.
A simple question, Michel : why do you want Diana to kill somebody ?
The first model didn't have any accident, and the new one seems to be
not only more performant, but also even softer, even more docile...
By the way, the first piece of Diana-2 is already sold, even before
the certification was closed, and the second one should be very soon.
Avis aux amateurs...

[Michel Talon]

Yurek > wrote:
> Sorry Michel, but I have to disagree completely with you. Polish

Of course you are welcome to disagree :-)

> products (gliders as well, as other stuff) HAS NOT to be cheap,
> because they are Polish ! They only have to be competitive...
> That's why, there are some not expensive Polish gliders, like Junior
> or Puchacz, which have an unbeatable price-to-quality ratio. And that
> is why, German or English clubs are buying these gliders...

And you cannot see a single one here.

> But with Diana it is an other story. IT IS a Ferrari of the air, and

Yes but don't forget that people will *always* prefer German gliders,
even more expensive. To sell something other countries have to be much cheaper,
beleive it or not. Would you buy a Chinese camera at the price of a Leica,
even if people say it has a better lens? Never.

> the only reason for pilots to buy it, will be its performance ! That
> is its competitiveness. You have some difficulty to belive this
> performance, but you do require already Diana to be cheap ! You're
> joking, I guess !

Sorry, i am not joking. High prices have completely killed the sport. This
being said, if the Diana really has the polar that i have seen it is a
complete aerodynamical exploit, something that was considered almost
impossible, when you see that only couple of points of L/D have been gained in
decades.


> I am not sure that clubs will buy it, they will be rather the private
> owners, which will have a strong interest.

How many private owners will buy such a glider? Private owners are not all
Bill Gates. Most of them are not very rich, they want to be able to sell
their glider at least at the same price they did buy it, and they are more or
less assured to do that with a German glider. At least here in France, gliders
have a tendency to finish their life in clubs, so it is very important that
a glider is susceptible to be bought by clubs.


> A simple question, Michel : why do you want Diana to kill somebody ?

I hope not, of course, i hope they have not committed the blunder of
sacrificing safe handling to performance like a well known German glider.

> The first model didn't have any accident, and the new one seems to be
> not only more performant, but also even softer, even more docile...
> By the way, the first piece of Diana-2 is already sold, even before
> the certification was closed, and the second one should be very soon.

Fantastic!

> Avis aux amateurs...

A successful design doesn't sell ten or twenty units. The LS4 has been sold in
the thousands.



--

Michel TALON

[John Galloway]

At 00:00 29 January 2005, Michel Talon wrote:

>I hope not, of course, i hope they have not committed
>the blunder of sacrificing safe handling to performance
>like a well known German glider.
>

Which glider??

John Galloway

[Stewart Kissel]

Would you buy a Chinese camera at the price of a Leica,
>even if people say it has a better lens? Never.
>

Did they not say that about Japanese cars at one time?
:)

[Michel Talon]

Stewart Kissel > wrote:
> Would you buy a Chinese camera at the price of a Leica,
> >even if people say it has a better lens? Never.
> >
>
> Did they not say that about Japanese cars at one time?
> :)

Yes, and do you beleive Honda sells more cars here than BMW?

>
>
>

--

Michel TALON

[André Somers]

Michel Talon wrote:

> Stewart Kissel > wrote:
>> Would you buy a Chinese camera at the price of a Leica,
>> >even if people say it has a better lens? Never.
>> >
>>
>> Did they not say that about Japanese cars at one time?
>> :)
>
> Yes, and do you beleive Honda sells more cars here than BMW?
They sure do here!

André
who doesn't need to be convinced that SZD build excellent gliders

[Stefan]

Michel Talon wrote:

> do you beleive Honda sells more cars here than BMW?

I do. And I see more Canon cameras than Leicas as well.

Stefan

[Michel Talon]

Stefan > wrote:
> Michel Talon wrote:
>
> > do you beleive Honda sells more cars here than BMW?
>
> I do. And I see more Canon cameras than Leicas as well.

At the same price? And note that Canon and Nikon benefit from an excellent
reputation, since decades, are considered professional quality. Could you
compare that to the problem we are discussing?


>
> Stefan

--

Michel TALON

[Stefan]

Michel Talon wrote:

> At the same price? And note that Canon and Nikon benefit from an
excellent
> reputation, since decades, are considered professional quality. Could you
> compare that to the problem we are discussing?

Which problem? And, btw, SZD has an excellent reputation, too.

Stefan

[iPilot]

Do you want to say that polish gliders are low in quality and therefore have
to be cheap?

If this is the case, you're very much wrong. The same way, as Poland makes
gliders (hand made, decent quality control), a factory in my country makes
decent pianos. No-one is putting their quality under question. I actively
fly polish gliders (not Diana unfortunately) and I don't question their
quality of manufacturing. Do you?

"Michel Talon" > wrote in message
...
> Stefan > wrote:
>> Michel Talon wrote:
>>
>> > do you beleive Honda sells more cars here than BMW?
>>
>> I do. And I see more Canon cameras than Leicas as well.
>
> At the same price? And note that Canon and Nikon benefit from an excellent
> reputation, since decades, are considered professional quality. Could you
> compare that to the problem we are discussing?
>
>
>>
>> Stefan
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON
>

[Michel Talon]

iPilot > wrote:
> Do you want to say that polish gliders are low in quality and therefore have
> to be cheap?
>
> If this is the case, you're very much wrong. The same way, as Poland makes
> gliders (hand made, decent quality control), a factory in my country makes
> decent pianos. No-one is putting their quality under question. I actively
> fly polish gliders (not Diana unfortunately) and I don't question their
> quality of manufacturing. Do you?


Of course, not. I was simply pointing that there is a "snob factor" such that
rich people want to pay overpriced stuff because it is fashionable, period.
If you don't benefit from this effect you have to sell cheaper or you don't
sell. Take an example, the French glider Pegase was an excellent glider, very
comparable to the LS4. It was 30% cheaper than the LS4 still it was difficult
to sell, to say the least. I don't understand why you all take this
personnally like if i had said, Polish gliders are crap. The only thing i have
said, and i maintain, is that whatever the qualities of Polish gliders, people
will buy them if they are cheaper than German ones, not in the opposite case.


--

Michel TALON

[Pete Reinhart]

".. No-one is putting their quality under question. I actively
> fly polish gliders (not Diana unfortunately) and I don't question their
> quality of manufacturing. Do you?
>
>
I agree,
I'm flying an open Jantar and it is evry bit as good as the previously owned
Nimbus 2, both are design and production contemporaries.
Plus...
It is easier to rig.
And...
For those who can appreciate elegant engineering solutions there are many
innovative ideas excellently executed.
Also...
The landing gear and tail boom are rugged as heck, nay as one other put
it,"agricultural (strength)". Unlike some others, the brake will put it on
it's nose any time you care to try.
Current prices on the used market are similar these days for these older
open class ships, and I have no idea how they were priced when new.
Fortunately for those who can value the experience they are a great bargain,
costing far less than new production of similar or even much less
performance.
Just my thoughts and the very humble opinion of one who's search for value
is not limited by "common knowledge".
Cheers!

[Jancsika]

It's not only snob factor. German gliders proved performance,
reliability, easy handling etc-etc. So it's always a risk to choose
something else. To balance this risk manufacturer shall offer attractive
price. Same as Lak does...


/Jancsika

Michel Talon wrote:

> iPilot > wrote:
>
>>Do you want to say that polish gliders are low in quality and therefore have
>>to be cheap?
>>
>>If this is the case, you're very much wrong. The same way, as Poland makes
>>gliders (hand made, decent quality control), a factory in my country makes
>>decent pianos. No-one is putting their quality under question. I actively
>>fly polish gliders (not Diana unfortunately) and I don't question their
>>quality of manufacturing. Do you?
>
>
>
> Of course, not. I was simply pointing that there is a "snob factor" such that
> rich people want to pay overpriced stuff because it is fashionable, period.
> If you don't benefit from this effect you have to sell cheaper or you don't
> sell. Take an example, the French glider Pegase was an excellent glider, very
> comparable to the LS4. It was 30% cheaper than the LS4 still it was difficult
> to sell, to say the least. I don't understand why you all take this
> personnally like if i had said, Polish gliders are crap. The only thing i have
> said, and i maintain, is that whatever the qualities of Polish gliders, people
> will buy them if they are cheaper than German ones, not in the opposite case.
>
>

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:56:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:


>If you don't benefit from this effect you have to sell cheaper or you don't
>sell. Take an example, the French glider Pegase was an excellent glider, very
>comparable to the LS4. It was 30% cheaper than the LS4 still it was difficult
>to sell, to say the least.

One cause for that was the bad reputation of the (early?) french-built
ASW-20's. I've seen the leading edges of a couple of Centrair 20's and
Pegase 78 - not good stuff.


>I don't understand why you all take this
>personnally like if i had said, Polish gliders are crap. The only thing i have
>said, and i maintain, is that whatever the qualities of Polish gliders, people
>will buy them if they are cheaper than German ones, not in the opposite case.

Give them a chance, Michel! :)
Time will tell how good the Diana really is - and competition is never
a bad thing for such a limited market as glider manufacturing. It's
hard to predict the success of an aircraft when the first prototype
has only been flown for a couple of days.




Bye
Andreas