Tires again (but this time on the tow vehicle)

[Papa3]

I recently replaced the Original Equipment Michelin MXV4 H-rated tires on my
VW Passat 4 motion wagon (Variant for those of you in Europe) with Dunlop SP
40 A/S all weather radials. Other than lacking a speed rating, they are the
same dimensions as the originals. Although the new tires are okay in
regular driving, I've noticed that the towing performance is much worse.
The car and trailer combination (LS8 in a new Anschau Komet Euro Trailer)
used to be rock solid up to 75mph; any mild trailer wag would damp out
immediately. Now, trailer wag can set up at around 65mph, and it seems
less likely to damp out.

I'm assuming that one aspect of speed rated tires must be a stiffer sidewall
to handle cornering loads. I'm guessing that this may be a part of the
problem. Anyone else experience similar?

Erik Mann (P3)

[Lorry]

Hi Erik,

>From my experience I think you are right on! Trailer tires are usually
a bias belted tire which have a much stiffer side wall. A previous
thread cited great improvement by using a 17 inch wheel with low
profile (aspect ratio) tires. One way to improve the situation you
describe is to signifigantly increase your rear tire pressure (36-38
psi) and also the pressure of the trailer tires (40 psi). To get a
better feel for the situation, try pushing the rear of your vehicle
sideways with a pulsing effort. When your frequency is close to the
natural frequency in that mode you will be surprised at how little
effort it takes to sustain the motion. If you watch the sidewall while
doing this you will notice that the majority, if not all, of the motion
is in the side wall. The increased pressures will increase the natural
frequency and thereby allow a higher speed before the swaying becomes
objectionable.

Lorry charchian

[Bob C]

I tow a large trailer which carries both my Salto sailplane
and my Skybolt biplane behind a Dodge Ram 2500. When
I changed tires a couple of years ago, they inadvertently
installed 8 ply (load range D) instead of 10 ply (load
range E). The towing characteristics went from excellent
to scary. The tire shop fixed the mistake, and all
is well again.

If you are towing a sailplane trailer at 75 MPH behind
a VW Passat, let me know where you're going, so I can
be sure to stay far away. IMHO, not nearly enough
tow vehicle mass, regardless of tires.

At 05:30 03 February 2005, Papa3 wrote:
>I recently replaced the Original Equipment Michelin
>MXV4 H-rated tires on my
>VW Passat 4 motion wagon (Variant for those of you
>in Europe) with Dunlop SP
>40 A/S all weather radials. Other than lacking a speed
>rating, they are the
>same dimensions as the originals. Although the
>new tires are okay in
>regular driving, I've noticed that the towing performance
>is much worse.
>The car and trailer combination (LS8 in a new Anschau
>Komet Euro Trailer)
>used to be rock solid up to 75mph; any mild trailer
>wag would damp out
>immediately. Now, trailer wag can set up at around
>65mph, and it seems
>less likely to damp out.
>
>I'm assuming that one aspect of speed rated tires must
>be a stiffer sidewall
>to handle cornering loads. I'm guessing that this
>may be a part of the
>problem. Anyone else experience similar?
>
>Erik Mann (P3)
>
>
>

[Greg Arnold]

Bob C wrote:

> If you are towing a sailplane trailer at 75 MPH behind
> a VW Passat, let me know where you're going, so I can
> be sure to stay far away. IMHO, not nearly enough
> tow vehicle mass, regardless of tires.

For what it is worth, the website for VW of Australia indicates that the
towing capacity for the VW Passat is 1300 km (2860 pounds) -- almost
twice the weight of a glider trailer (with glider). Of course, VW
doubtless does not use the same number in the US.

[Eric Greenwell]

Lorry wrote:
> Hi Erik,
>
>>From my experience I think you are right on! Trailer tires are usually
> a bias belted tire which have a much stiffer side wall.

Take a look at the trailers (both travel trailer and glider trailer)
around you and in the showrooms. You will find almost all of them come
with radial tires. Bias ply tires are cheaper to buy, and that is their
only advantage. Radials are a superior tire, even for trailers. There is
an important difference between trailer rated tires and the typical car
rated tires, even with the same size: the trailer tire _tread_ deflects
less (lower slip angle) for the same side load. There are some other
differences, but that's the one we notice.

> A previous
> thread cited great improvement by using a 17 inch wheel with low
> profile (aspect ratio) tires.

A lower profile will also yield a tread that deflects less.

One way to improve the situation you
> describe is to signifigantly increase your rear tire pressure (36-38
> psi) and also the pressure of the trailer tires (40 psi).

This will often reduce the "fishtailing", but don't exceed the maximum
pressure rating, shown on the side of the tire. Running a higher
pressure than recommended for the vehicle and tire will likely also
increase your tire wear, increase your braking distance, and definitely
give a harder ride.

To get a
> better feel for the situation, try pushing the rear of your vehicle
> sideways with a pulsing effort. When your frequency is close to the
> natural frequency in that mode you will be surprised at how little
> effort it takes to sustain the motion. If you watch the sidewall while
> doing this you will notice that the majority, if not all, of the motion
> is in the side wall.

The side to side motion you see by doing this is unimportant, and is
about the same at all speeds, unlike true swaying. As attractive as this
theory is, sidewall deflection of this sort isn't what controls the
swaying behind the tow vehicle, which is a dynamic interaction of the
tread deflections (not sidewall) on the tow vehicle and trailer, coupled
to the masses of the vehicles through the hitch.

> The increased pressures will increase the natural
> frequency and thereby allow a higher speed before the swaying becomes
> objectionable.

THe increased pressure reduces the tread deflection for a given side
load - that's why it can help. It might help enough to be useful. I
think, instead, you should carefully consider if these new tires really
are suitable for your vehicle. Do a search using Google's "advanced
groups" search, using these:

AT least one of the words: forester
Group: rec.aviation.soaring
author: Chris

Chris solved his Subaru Forester swaying problem by replacing tires.
Quite dramatic.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Papa3]

Lorry,

Thanks. On the tire pressure suggestion, turns out that the max pressure
for these tires is only 35. I've always been one to run near the top of the
recommended range; I like the stiffer ride and it seems to help gas mileage
noticeably. In this case, even running at the max pressure, it's obvious
that the sidewalls aren't stiff enough.

Looks like another trip to the tire store is in order...

P3


"Lorry" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Erik,
>
> One way to improve the situation you
> describe is to signifigantly increase your rear tire pressure (36-38
> psi) and also the pressure of the trailer tires (40 psi). To get a
> better feel for the situation, try pushing the rear of your vehicle
> sideways with a pulsing effort.

[Lorry]

Hi Erik,

If I remember correctly, the max. press. listed on the side walls of
the original tires supplied on my Olds Silhouette and Cobra trailer is
44 psi. I usually only elevate the tire pressures when going on a long
trip when I need to travel at higher speeds. From experience, this
alows me to cruise about 10 mph faster which helps. However, I agree
that the sidewalls need to be stiffer. The thread I refered to
described their solution which was to buy a pair of aftermarket 17in
wheels (for some model Honda) having the correct 4 bolt pattern and
equiping them with low profile tires. They were elated with the
results. I would do the same if I wasn't so cheap!

Let me know what you decide to do and the results.

Lorry

[Papa3]

>IMHO, not nearly enough
> tow vehicle mass, regardless of tires

Following this logic, I'd be better off using an M-1 Abrahms... :-))

The Passat is a fantastic tow vehicle. With a curb weight of around
3800 lbs, all-wheel drive, stiff suspension, low CG, and a relatively
short coupling between hitch and rear axle, it's a great compromise
between tow vehicle and every day transportation. And with highway
mileage of about 25 (versus what - 16 for the Dodge?), I can still
afford to take a tow when I get to the airport! (and no, I don't really
tow at 75mph, but it is [was] no problem if I needed to for short
bursts with the old setup).

P3

[Michael McNulty]

"Papa3" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The Passat is a fantastic tow vehicle. With a curb weight of around
> 3800 lbs, all-wheel drive, stiff suspension, low CG, and a relatively
> short coupling between hitch and rear axle, it's a great compromise
> between tow vehicle and every day transportation. And with highway
> mileage of about 25 (versus what - 16 for the Dodge?), I can still
> afford to take a tow when I get to the airport! (and no, I don't really
> tow at 75mph, but it is [was] no problem if I needed to for short
> bursts with the old setup).
>
> P3
>

A few years ago I too thought that the Passat wagon looked like a good
choice to tow a glider trailer. When I went to look into buying one I found
out that "Volkswagon recommends that you don't use this vehicle for towing".
I first thought that the dealer was full of it, so I called Volkswagon
myself and, after being handed off a few times, got the definitive answer
that "we (VW) do not recommend that the Passat (or Jetta) be used for towing
and we do not publish any recomended trailer weight limit." Now, I
certainly won't argue with someone who says that he has had good results
using a Passat to tow, but I personally tend to believe the manufacture when
they say that you should not use their automobile for towing.
(This is in the US; perhaps in Europe VW gives a different story.)

Does anyone have experience towing with a Subaru Outback (2005 model
especially)? It bests the Passat wagon in most of the specs that I care
about, including price, and it is rated to tow 2700 lbs (1225 kg).

[Stefan]

Michael McNulty wrote:

> they say that you should not use their automobile for towing.
> (This is in the US; perhaps in Europe VW gives a different story.)

Looking at the outcome of some liability lawsuits in the US, I'm
surprized that there are still manufactorers which recommend their
product for *anything*.

Stefan

[Pete Reinhart]

Michael,
You will get the same response at the mercedes dealer. twenty years ago they
would sell a german produced tow hitch kit for any model and now they don't
want to talk about it.
If pressed they will refer you to a local hitch fabricator and only say that
they have other customers who have used them.
If you know about it to ask, there is a small shop handbook which covers all
of the production models worldwide and gives various specifications for
repair, alignment, and interchange parts, etc. You can find that widely
different wheels, springs, tires, shocks etc. are used in other countries
depending on installed equipment and intended use. It seems that the cars
shipped to OZ are the most ruggedized. The Aussie trailering springs I
ordered were in stock in a warehouse one day away and the dealer was happy
to sell the parts for an independent shop to install. You may find a similar
situation with the VW if you can find a guru.
Yes, the tort lawyers have screwed up things again IMNSHO.
Of course they may end up being the only ones around with enough money to
buy one of the new gliders coming out of europe.
Cheers!


"Michael McNulty" > wrote in message
news:S6XMd.27890$mt.18900@fed1read03...
>
> "Papa3" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > The Passat is a fantastic tow vehicle. With a curb weight of around
> > 3800 lbs, all-wheel drive, stiff suspension, low CG, and a relatively
> > short coupling between hitch and rear axle, it's a great compromise
> > between tow vehicle and every day transportation. And with highway
> > mileage of about 25 (versus what - 16 for the Dodge?), I can still
> > afford to take a tow when I get to the airport! (and no, I don't really
> > tow at 75mph, but it is [was] no problem if I needed to for short
> > bursts with the old setup).
> >
> > P3
> >
>
> A few years ago I too thought that the Passat wagon looked like a good
> choice to tow a glider trailer. When I went to look into buying one I
found
> out that "Volkswagon recommends that you don't use this vehicle for
towing".
> I first thought that the dealer was full of it, so I called Volkswagon
> myself and, after being handed off a few times, got the definitive answer
> that "we (VW) do not recommend that the Passat (or Jetta) be used for
towing
> and we do not publish any recomended trailer weight limit." Now, I
> certainly won't argue with someone who says that he has had good results
> using a Passat to tow, but I personally tend to believe the manufacture
when
> they say that you should not use their automobile for towing.
> (This is in the US; perhaps in Europe VW gives a different story.)
>
> Does anyone have experience towing with a Subaru Outback (2005 model
> especially)? It bests the Passat wagon in most of the specs that I care
> about, including price, and it is rated to tow 2700 lbs (1225 kg).
>
>

[Michael McNulty]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Michael McNulty wrote:
>
>> they say that you should not use their automobile for towing.
>> (This is in the US; perhaps in Europe VW gives a different story.)
>
> Looking at the outcome of some liability lawsuits in the US, I'm surprized
> that there are still manufactorers which recommend their product for
> *anything*.
>
> Stefan

Do you actually know anything about the legal system in the US, driving in
the US, or anything else in the US, or, are you just a inclined to
reflexively bash any mention of anything America?

[Michael McNulty]

"Pete Reinhart" > wrote in message
...
> Michael,
> You will get the same response at the mercedes dealer. twenty years ago
> they
> would sell a german produced tow hitch kit for any model and now they
> don't
> want to talk about it.

<snip>

From what I've read, while Mercedes does give a tow rating for many of their
cars sold in German, they limit the speed while towing to either 55 mph or
62 mph (100 km/h). This is really not suitable for highway use in the
Western United States.

I have plenty of choices of when I buy a car. I don't need to buy one that
the manufacturer says is not suitable for my intended use.

[Papa3]

Michael,

I went through the same rigamarole with VW US (which, by the way, has
just an awful reputation for warranty and other support - so I'm not
surprised). On the other hand, my cousin in Germany tows gliders with
an Audi A6 Variant, and he's about as anal as it gets when it comes to
following "ze rules." So, I stopped in at a VW dealer in Germany
when I was there a few years back. Not only do they publish numbers
for towing (similar to the Australian numbers posted above - something
like 1250kg) but they had in-stock an awesome tow hitch setup. It
requires pulling the rear bumper to install, but it provides a truly
integrated receiver hitch. Unfortunately, it would have cost an arm
and a leg to ship here, which does bring up another issue...

The aftermarket tow hitches available for the Passat in the US are a
joke. They require some serious re-engineering to make them suitable
for towing anything other than a Sunfish boat and trailer. Luckily,
one of the local Soaring gurus is also a fabrication wizard, and with
judicious use of doublers and new bolt patterns, we have a successful
setup. But, if I were to do it again, I'd find a way to get the
European hitch system shipped here.

Finally, one of the guys in my club has an Outback (2004, I think), and
he's very satisfied with it as a towing vehicle. I couldn't get over
the handling (I use the car for a lot of highway driving other than
towing) and the looks (which are better in the newer models), otherwise
I'd be driving an Outback right now.

P3

[Papa3]

I just posted a similar thought in response to Michael's note, above.
A suggestion for folks in the US might be to leverage the soaring
community in other countries to do their research there. Every time
I've been at a glider operation in Germany, I've seen tow hitches that
blow the doors off of anything you can get in the States mounted on
cars that I've been told "cannot possibly tow a glider trailer."
Granted, many of the towing distances are shorter, but the Autobahn and
the Alps equal anything we have here in terms of testing towing
capability...

On a humorous note, the paid placement ad that's showing up right over
here -->>> is from Dalan Hitches, maker of the aftermarket hitch for
my Passat that I so roundly criticized in the prior posting.

[Michel Talon]

Michael McNulty > wrote:
>
> From what I've read, while Mercedes does give a tow rating for many of their
> cars sold in German, they limit the speed while towing to either 55 mph or
> 62 mph (100 km/h). This is really not suitable for highway use in the
> Western United States.
>

Mere curiosity, what is the speed limit in the US highways? I was under the
impression it was rather low.

> I have plenty of choices of when I buy a car. I don't need to buy one that
> the manufacturer says is not suitable for my intended use.
>
>
>

--

Michel TALON

[Michael McNulty]

"Michel Talon" > wrote in message
...
> Michael McNulty > wrote:
>>
>> From what I've read, while Mercedes does give a tow rating for many of
>> their
>> cars sold in German, they limit the speed while towing to either 55 mph
>> or
>> 62 mph (100 km/h). This is really not suitable for highway use in the
>> Western United States.
>>
>
> Mere curiosity, what is the speed limit in the US highways? I was under
> the
> impression it was rather low.
>

It depends on the state you're in and whether your in an urban or rural
area. Where I live the major highways, outside of citys, are usually 75 mph
(121 km/h). But then, of course the typical speed on these roads is 85 mph.
Some states (Montana, Nevada?), few years ago at least, had no limits.

[Udo Rumpf]

they limit the speed while towing to either 55 mph or
>> 62 mph (100 km/h). This is really not suitable for highway use in the
>> Western United States.

> Mere curiosity, what is the speed limit in the US highways? I was under
the
> impression it was rather low.
>
> Michel TALON

The "posted" speed limits in the Western US are 75m/h = 120km/h.
I may have seen 80m/h as well but I can not remember for sure.
The "normal" cruising speeds are about 85 - 90m/h ~ 140km.
In the Eastern parts of the US it ranges from 60 to 70m/h
This allows for a cruising speed of 70 to 80 m/h =115 to 128km/h.
Unlike Europe, specifically Germany, we are able to maintain a very good
average speed in North America. When visiting Germany I find
when driving on the Autobahn the average speed is lower
then one would expect. This deception is cause by the occasional burst
of that famous unlimited speed on the Autobahn.
One other interesting thing, that has not been mentioned, is the fact
we over here, Canada&US,have to "compete" directly with the large trucks
that have no problem diving at speeds of 120km/h. In Europe If I remember
correctly the trucks are limited to between 80 and 100km/h.

One other thing relating to more powerful tow vehicles.
A Gliding friend of my is very happy with his Jetta station wagon Turbo
Diesel
here in Canada. He says it is very comfortable towing a cobra trailer.
It is powerful enough and it has enough torque for a quick getup and go.
Regards
Udo

[Greg Arnold]

Michael McNulty wrote:

>>Mere curiosity, what is the speed limit in the US highways? I was under
>>the
>>impression it was rather low.
>>
>
>
> It depends on the state you're in and whether your in an urban or rural
> area. Where I live the major highways, outside of citys, are usually 75 mph
> (121 km/h). But then, of course the typical speed on these roads is 85 mph.
> Some states (Montana, Nevada?), few years ago at least, had no limits.

Is the trailer limit the same as the car limit, or is it lower?

[Greg Arnold]

Michael McNulty wrote:

>
> From what I've read, while Mercedes does give a tow rating for many of their
> cars sold in German, they limit the speed while towing to either 55 mph or
> 62 mph (100 km/h). This is really not suitable for highway use in the
> Western United States.

On California highways, the speed limit for trailers never is above 55 mph.


> I have plenty of choices of when I buy a car. I don't need to buy one that
> the manufacturer says is not suitable for my intended use.

If you are a stickler for manufacturer's recommendations, I suppose you
also are a stickler for speed limits? If so, at least in California, a
car limited to towing at 55 mph should not be a problem.

[Greg Arnold]

> Finally, one of the guys in my club has an Outback (2004, I think), and
> he's very satisfied with it as a towing vehicle. I couldn't get over
> the handling (I use the car for a lot of highway driving other than
> towing) and the looks (which are better in the newer models), otherwise
> I'd be driving an Outback right now.
>
> P3
>

Several posts in this thread have mentioned the Subaru Outback. It
appears to have a rather large distance between the rear axle and the
tow hitch. I wonder how that affects handling?

By contrast, the VW Golf has a relatively short distance between the
rear axle and hitch. And the Mercedes B-Class (a Golf sized car with
200 hp coming in November) has almost no rear overhang, and thus would
have an especially short distance between axle and hitch (rear overhang
is 23% of wheelbase, while Golf is 29%, and Outback appears to be close
to 40%).

Based on my desire for a small car that has considerable power, a short
distance between axle and hitch, a low center of gravity, and a rather
stiff suspension with performance tires, I wonder if the B-Class (about
$25,000, allegedly) would be a good choice.

[Shawn]

Papa3 wrote:
> I just posted a similar thought in response to Michael's note, above.
> A suggestion for folks in the US might be to leverage the soaring
> community in other countries to do their research there. Every time
> I've been at a glider operation in Germany, I've seen tow hitches that
> blow the doors off of anything you can get in the States mounted on
> cars that I've been told "cannot possibly tow a glider trailer."
> Granted, many of the towing distances are shorter, but the Autobahn and
> the Alps equal anything we have here in terms of testing towing
> capability...

??? Have you ever driven up to the Eisenhower tunnel on I-70 in the
middle of summer? 14,000 ft density altitude at 60 mph. Some cars
struggle with one person and a half a tank of gas!

Shawn

[Greg Arnold]

Shawn wrote:
> Papa3 wrote:
>
>> I just posted a similar thought in response to Michael's note, above.
>> A suggestion for folks in the US might be to leverage the soaring
>> community in other countries to do their research there. Every time
>> I've been at a glider operation in Germany, I've seen tow hitches that
>> blow the doors off of anything you can get in the States mounted on
>> cars that I've been told "cannot possibly tow a glider trailer."
>> Granted, many of the towing distances are shorter, but the Autobahn and
>> the Alps equal anything we have here in terms of testing towing
>> capability...
>
>
> ??? Have you ever driven up to the Eisenhower tunnel on I-70 in the
> middle of summer? 14,000 ft density altitude at 60 mph. Some cars
> struggle with one person and a half a tank of gas!
>
> Shawn

If you have a small car, you get in the right hand lane with the trucks.
Your arrival at your destination may be delayed by 10 minutes or so.

[Shawn]

Greg Arnold wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
>
>> Papa3 wrote:
>>
>>> I just posted a similar thought in response to Michael's note, above.
>>> A suggestion for folks in the US might be to leverage the soaring
>>> community in other countries to do their research there. Every time
>>> I've been at a glider operation in Germany, I've seen tow hitches that
>>> blow the doors off of anything you can get in the States mounted on
>>> cars that I've been told "cannot possibly tow a glider trailer."
>>> Granted, many of the towing distances are shorter, but the Autobahn and
>>> the Alps equal anything we have here in terms of testing towing
>>> capability...
>>
>>
>>
>> ??? Have you ever driven up to the Eisenhower tunnel on I-70 in the
>> middle of summer? 14,000 ft density altitude at 60 mph. Some cars
>> struggle with one person and a half a tank of gas!
>>
>> Shawn
>
>
> If you have a small car, you get in the right hand lane with the trucks.
> Your arrival at your destination may be delayed by 10 minutes or so.

More like 40 minutes in the anemic Honda I used to own.


Shawn

[Michael McNulty]

"Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
news:lG6Nd.29085$xt.15106@fed1read07...
> Michael McNulty wrote:
>
>>
>
> If you are a stickler for manufacturer's recommendations, I suppose you
> also are a stickler for speed limits?

You suppose wrongly.

>If so, at least in California, a car limited to towing at 55 mph should not
>be a problem.
>

I don't live in California.

[Marc Ramsey]

Greg Arnold wrote:
> Several posts in this thread have mentioned the Subaru Outback. It
> appears to have a rather large distance between the rear axle and the
> tow hitch. I wonder how that affects handling?

One of the partners in our Duo tows it with his Outback, and he's
indicated that the combo works fine. I've been tempted to get one
myself, but I'd likely opt for the Forester, which has a larger
specified tow capacity (2500 lbs, I believe), and looks like it has less
overhang.

Marc

[John Galloway]

At 19:30 05 February 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>Greg Arnold wrote:
>> Several posts in this thread have mentioned the Subaru
>>Outback. It
>> appears to have a rather large distance between the
>>rear axle and the
>> tow hitch. I wonder how that affects handling?
>
>One of the partners in our Duo tows it with his Outback,
>and he's
>indicated that the combo works fine. I've been tempted
>to get one
>myself, but I'd likely opt for the Forester, which
>has a larger
>specified tow capacity (2500 lbs, I believe), and looks
>like it has less
>overhang.
>
>Marc

Interesting difference - in the UK the Outback has
a towing limits of 1800 to 2000lbs and the Forester
1500 to 200lbs, both depending on the precise model.
The Forester is based on the Impreza chassis which
is a size down from the Legacy/Outback. I had a Legacy
which was a good tow car and have been considering
another or a Forester (if I can't get my 16 year old
Mercedes 4WD system fixed).

It is always puzzling to listen in the the US tow car
discussions because there seem to be reports of problems
towing with cars that we regard as excellent in Europe.
My only hypothesis is that it is because of the softer
suspension set ups preferred in the US market. I
have seen an LS7 towed around Europe with a Peugot
205 and used a 1400cc 75 hp Honda Civic Shuttle myself
one year which made a super stable towcar because of
its wide wheel base and firm suspension.

John Galloway

[Jim Phoenix]

"Shawn" wrote>
> ??? Have you ever driven up to the Eisenhower tunnel on I-70 in the
> middle of summer? 14,000 ft density altitude at 60 mph. Some cars
> struggle with one person and a half a tank of gas!

Which is why all three of my vehicles have turbochargers. The Volvo XC-70
has a rated tow capacity of 3300 lbs and gets a surprisingly low 21 mpg
around town towing nothing... not a lot better than my Dodge one ton dually
with a Cummins Turbo Diesel - it gets 18 mpg average towing the Nimbus over
the pass to Ephrata. With the camper on, the mpg goes down to 13 towing the
Nimbus - but it would be higher if I wasn't going up the hill at 73 mph on
cruise control with the house on the back dragging the Pfeiffer.

Jim

[Bob C]

>Following this logic, I'd be better off using an M-1
>Abrahms... :-))

You are correct. In a panic, rainy, downhill stop
situation, I'd take the Abrams if it was available
:o)

All kidding aside, the 3/4-ton Dodge diesel gets 25
MPG empty, 20 in town and 20 pulling the sailplane
trailer. (I'm not exaggerating. I keep a fuel logbook
for tax purposes.) In its 2 WD configuration, 5 speed,
and without a lot of bells and whistles, it cost around
$26000 new in 2001. It now has 165,000 miles (mostly
pulling the trailer) and runs like new. Other than
oil changes, it's never been in the shop. I expect
it to last around 300,000 miles. The last set of tires
even lasted 90,000 miles! It's big, comfortable and
roomy enough for all my gear. I've run the numbers.
It is the cheapest sailplane transporter there is.
And no sparkplugs to change :o)

There is NEVER a question about towing authority.
I've had a few panic stop situations that would have
been pretty scary in anything lighter. I've had trailer
tires blow and wouldn't have even known if I hadn't
heard the bang.

I've seen a sailplane trailer blow a tire and wrap
itself around an Acura Legend. Totaled the car and
trailer. Luckily, the sailplane wasn't in it at the
time. Nearly sideswiped a semi in the process. Up
till then, it towed fine.

If you tow a lot with the VW, you can expect to put
a new transmission in before 100,000 miles. And a
hefty fee to tow it and the trailer from whatever God-forsaken
stretch of highway it failed on...probably at midnight.

Just my $.02 worth.





At 22:00 04 February 2005, Papa3 wrote:
>>IMHO, not nearly enough
>> tow vehicle mass, regardless of tires
>
>Following this logic, I'd be better off using an M-1
>Abrahms... :-))
>
>The Passat is a fantastic tow vehicle. With a curb
>weight of around
>3800 lbs, all-wheel drive, stiff suspension, low CG,
>and a relatively
>short coupling between hitch and rear axle, it's a
>great compromise
>between tow vehicle and every day transportation.
> And with highway
>mileage of about 25 (versus what - 16 for the Dodge?),
>I can still
>afford to take a tow when I get to the airport! (and
>no, I don't really
>tow at 75mph, but it is [was] no problem if I needed
>to for short
>bursts with the old setup).
>
>P3
>
>

[jphoenix]

Bob C wrote:

> All kidding aside, the 3/4-ton Dodge diesel gets 25
> MPG empty, 20 in town and 20 pulling the sailplane
> trailer.

Indeed,

I had the choice of the new 2004.5 CTD or the older version and went
with the new motor - gets lower mileage for sure. But that 600 ft. lbs.
of torque sure makes for nice climbs. I've towed with lots of different
things and it's sure nice to be in charge of the formation on a wet
mountain pass!

Jim

[[email protected]]

Here in Germany, Volkswagon sells a towing package for the Passat and
Jetta.

Bob

[Papa3]

If you Google back a ways in this same newsgroup, you'll see me quoted
as saying something like "there's no substitute for mass" in a tow
vehicle. In those days, I had just switched from the Jetta (more or
less okay for "normal" situations, but definitely not what I'd want in
a downhill panic stop) to an Explorer. However, I think that if you
look at a car like the Passat (all wheel drive plus good ABS plus a
friendly geometry for towing), it's an acceptable alternative to heavy
metal. And again, if you're gonna have to take the wife and kids down
to the shore, it's a lot more friendly as a "regular" family vehicle.
I think the key is to understand the limits and also to make sure
that the trailer brakes are in perfect condition. I've had several
panic situations with the Passat, and thanks to good surge brakes and
intelligent driving, we're still here to talk about it.

WRT diesels, I'm a big fan. I actually started my gliding life towing
a 1-36 on a Gherlein trailer with a Diesel Rabbit. Now that was an
interesting setup. No problem getting going, but hard to get out of
second gear on an uphill. I desperately wanted the Passat 4motion
Wagon with the TDI, but unfortunately, they don't import it into the US
(yet).

P3

[Greg Arnold]

Papa3 wrote:
> If you Google back a ways in this same newsgroup, you'll see me quoted
> as saying something like "there's no substitute for mass" in a tow
> vehicle.

True, but a lot of the vehicles with high mass have undesirable traits
like a high center of gravity, a long rear overhang, and perhaps a soft
suspension. If you improve those other traits, you should be able to
reduce mass without reducing safety. Of course, at some point you
can't improve those other traits any more, so any further reductions in
mass will potentially reduce safety.

I think the ideal tow vehicle depends a lot upon the personality of the
driver. If you are the type who gets impatient if you aren't driving at
70 to 80 mph, you will need a heavy tow vehicle. If you are willing to
reduce your speed to whatever is safe for your tow vehicle, you can get
by with something that is smaller and lighter.


In those days, I had just switched from the Jetta (more or
> less okay for "normal" situations, but definitely not what I'd want in
> a downhill panic stop) to an Explorer. However, I think that if you
> look at a car like the Passat (all wheel drive plus good ABS plus a
> friendly geometry for towing), it's an acceptable alternative to heavy
> metal. And again, if you're gonna have to take the wife and kids down
> to the shore, it's a lot more friendly as a "regular" family vehicle.
> I think the key is to understand the limits and also to make sure
> that the trailer brakes are in perfect condition. I've had several
> panic situations with the Passat, and thanks to good surge brakes and
> intelligent driving, we're still here to talk about it.
>
> WRT diesels, I'm a big fan. I actually started my gliding life towing
> a 1-36 on a Gherlein trailer with a Diesel Rabbit. Now that was an
> interesting setup. No problem getting going, but hard to get out of
> second gear on an uphill. I desperately wanted the Passat 4motion
> Wagon with the TDI, but unfortunately, they don't import it into the US
> (yet).
>
> P3
>

[Shawn]

Bob C wrote:
>>Following this logic, I'd be better off using an M-1
>>Abrahms... :-))
>
>
> You are correct. In a panic, rainy, downhill stop
> situation, I'd take the Abrams if it was available
> :o)
>
> All kidding aside, the 3/4-ton Dodge diesel gets 25
> MPG empty, 20 in town and 20 pulling the sailplane
> trailer. (I'm not exaggerating. I keep a fuel logbook
> for tax purposes.) In its 2 WD configuration, 5 speed,
> and without a lot of bells and whistles, it cost around
> $26000 new in 2001. It now has 165,000 miles (mostly
> pulling the trailer) and runs like new. Other than
> oil changes, it's never been in the shop. I expect
> it to last around 300,000 miles. The last set of tires
> even lasted 90,000 miles! It's big, comfortable and
> roomy enough for all my gear. I've run the numbers.
> It is the cheapest sailplane transporter there is.
> And no sparkplugs to change :o)

(Heavy sigh) I learned about the performance of the big diesels after I
bought my 2000 Dakota Quadcab with its peaky gas V8 (lots of power but
you need to down shift to get it) that gets similar millage in a
mid-sized truck with a smallish bed. I assumed bigger meant more cost
and poorer fuel millage (as with F150s), and the salesmen were useless.
It is easier to park.

Shawn

[Stefan]

Michael McNulty wrote:

> Do you actually know anything about the legal system in the US, driving in
> the US, or anything else in the US, or, are you just a inclined to
> reflexively bash any mention of anything America?

If your patriotic reflex had allowed you to recognize the irony, you
would have understood that my message simply was: "There may be other
reasons than technical ones."

Stefan

[Stefan]

Michael McNulty wrote:

> From what I've read, while Mercedes does give a tow rating for many of their
> cars sold in German, they limit the speed while towing to either 55 mph or
> 62 mph (100 km/h).

It's not Mercedes. It's simply the law which limits the speed for
trailer towing in some countries. (e.g. 80 km/h in Switzerland, 100 km/h
in Germany ...)

Stefan

[Bert Willing]

Well, in Europe almost all vehicules are rated for maximum tow weight -
depending on horse power and torque. If the same car isn't rated for towing
in the US (and the Passat tows fairly well) it is obvious that the reason
behind this is not technical.

I think the main reason for the difference in European and US perception is
that in Europe, suspensions are much stiffer and steering is more direct. We
need that here because our roads are much less smooth, rather windy- and
because the style of driving is much different (especially if you go to
southern France or Italy).

But the result is simple for us: In the last 25 years, I never ever heared a
European sailplane pilot discussing about tires. You check the max tow
weight of the car you fancy, you buy it with a hook and you go - with a
Cobra or a Komet trailer, there won't be any problem. My Calif trailer is a
different story (1200kg, one axle, suspicious stability), but when I blew a
tire of that trailer at 100kph on a narrow road, the car kept going straight
ahead - I eventually stopped because the steering wheel started to rattle
and a big plume of smoke was coming off the reminder of the wheel (since
then I stopped listening to hard rock on full power...). The car was a Saab
with a 2 litres engine, 300kg heavier than the trailer.

Having driven a lot in the US in various rental cars, I wouldn't take the
same approach...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michael McNulty" > a écrit dans le message de news:
T85Nd.31446$mt.26531@fed1read03...
>
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Michael McNulty wrote:
>>
>>> they say that you should not use their automobile for towing.
>>> (This is in the US; perhaps in Europe VW gives a different story.)
>>
>> Looking at the outcome of some liability lawsuits in the US, I'm
>> surprized that there are still manufactorers which recommend their
>> product for *anything*.
>>
>> Stefan
>
> Do you actually know anything about the legal system in the US, driving in
> the US, or anything else in the US, or, are you just a inclined to
> reflexively bash any mention of anything America?
>

[Graeme Cant]

Stefan wrote:
> Michael McNulty wrote:
>
>> From what I've read, while Mercedes does give a tow rating for many of
>> their cars sold in German, they limit the speed while towing to either
>> 55 mph or 62 mph (100 km/h).
>
>
> It's not Mercedes. It's simply the law which limits the speed for
> trailer towing in some countries. (e.g. 80 km/h in Switzerland, 100 km/h
> in Germany ...)

Actually, it IS Mercedes and the speeds are even slower than you quote.
The ML manual I'm looking at right now says 50 mph or 80km/h :( even
though the legal limit for trailers here is the posted limit. That's
usually 100 or 110km/h on highways/freeways.

Graeme Cant