Successful Winch Launch Operations from Public Use Municipal/County Airports

[[email protected]]

Good day,

I'm looking for successful Commercial/Club Operators winch launching gliders from small Public Use Municipal/County Airports. I want to understand how you're successfully working with GA Power pilots and Public Servants to run your winch-glider operation.

Please let's keep the "power and gliders don't mix" and "winch and GA traffic don't mix" comments to low rumble so those folks who are successfully working with our GA and Public Servants partners can speak up.

Respectfully,
Richard Starke
five seven one 379 0139

[Tony[_5_]]

Best example I'm aware of is Don Ingraham at Cross Country Soaring in Fairbault Mn

[AS]

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 4:01:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Good day,
>
> I'm looking for successful Commercial/Club Operators winch launching gliders from small Public Use Municipal/County Airports. I want to understand how you're successfully working with GA Power pilots and Public Servants to run your winch-glider operation.
>
> Please let's keep the "power and gliders don't mix" and "winch and GA traffic don't mix" comments to low rumble so those folks who are successfully working with our GA and Public Servants partners can speak up.
>
> Respectfully,
> Richard Starke
> five seven one 379 0139

There is a successful commercial 'winch only' operation on Dillingham Field, HI.
The Carolina Soaring Association operates their winch off of a busy county airport with mixed traffic ranging from biz-jets to ultralights to gyro-planes. Communication is key!

Uli
'AS'

[Piet Barber]

> Please let's keep the "power and gliders don't mix" and "winch and GA traffic don't mix" comments to low rumble so those folks who are successfully working with our GA and Public Servants partners can speak up.


Brian Collins at Eastern Soaring Center (right next door to you) has a commercial winch operation at Petersburg, WV. I've taken several winch tows out of that airport in my Duo Discus and really enjoy flying there.

[Mike Hendron]

We have had success with winch operations at the Nephi airport in Utah over the past few years. It is a large airport with some power traffic, but not a lot. Some transient training flights, local skydiving operations, autogyro operations, plus our aerotows. But we have always been able to coordinate by radio and vigilant observation without any conflicts. We work closely with the airport manager, and typically do a NOTAM on days we winch as a courtesy as well. And we try to maintain good working relationships with all the major parties at the airport. Winching is secondary at this point, so it isn't a frequent, but when we do winch we tend to make it an all day activity.

Mike Hendron
Utah Soaring Association

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the great feedback on this forum and phone calls I received.

[2G]

On Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 5:41:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Thanks for all the great feedback on this forum and phone calls I received.

Nobody mentioned how they keep cables and power planes separated.

[[email protected]]

Hi Richard, I own/operate a commercial glider operation (16 years now!) at a Municipal airport in Faribault,MN called Cross Country Soaring, Inc. The majority of our operations are behind a Socata Rallye 235E pulling a pair of Grob 103 Twin IIs and a dozen private owners. We do a fair amount of winching also. A decade ago I bought a 330HP Gehrlein winch and have a mile of 6MM Dyneema on the drum. The trick to operating at a GA airport (in my experience) is to get everyone on board - the local power pilots, the airport manager, FSDO. You can't approach it with, "gliders are one of the seven categories of aircraft and have a right to operate from federally-funded airports blah blah". That argument can be easily toppled at a meeting (that you aren't invited to) where concerns about safety, legit or otherwise, win the day. Instead, write up a "Winch Operations Manual" which covers every step of a winch launch. It should absolutely reek with courtesy towards power traffic, professionalism, and clear radio communication. Once your local FSDO signs off (yup - send them a copy), the airport manager can relax and most local power pilots think it looks cool as hell. :-) The hard part is playing second fiddle while winching. E.G. radio: "Glider holding for inbound traffic (ten miles out)". Or, "Winch retrieve car, clearing the active for Warrior on downwind (doing it's 10th touch-and-go)". That's hard. But, it's the price. Also, take the local power guys up on a launch or two. No charge.. It will be the best money you ever spent. The main goal is to appear professional and courteous to the more...er...rigid pilots out there. Good luck!

[John Foster]

On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 10:59:23 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Hi Richard, I own/operate a commercial glider operation (16 years now!) at a Municipal airport in Faribault,MN called Cross Country Soaring, Inc. The majority of our operations are behind a Socata Rallye 235E pulling a pair of Grob 103 Twin IIs and a dozen private owners. We do a fair amount of winching also. A decade ago I bought a 330HP Gehrlein winch and have a mile of 6MM Dyneema on the drum. The trick to operating at a GA airport (in my experience) is to get everyone on board - the local power pilots, the airport manager, FSDO. You can't approach it with, "gliders are one of the seven categories of aircraft and have a right to operate from federally-funded airports blah blah". That argument can be easily toppled at a meeting (that you aren't invited to) where concerns about safety, legit or otherwise, win the day. Instead, write up a "Winch Operations Manual" which covers every step of a winch launch. It should absolutely reek with courtesy towards power traffic, professionalism, and clear radio communication. Once your local FSDO signs off (yup - send them a copy), the airport manager can relax and most local power pilots think it looks cool as hell. :-) The hard part is playing second fiddle while winching. E.G. radio: "Glider holding for inbound traffic (ten miles out)". Or, "Winch retrieve car, clearing the active for Warrior on downwind (doing it's 10th touch-and-go)". That's hard. But, it's the price. Also, take the local power guys up on a launch or two. No charge. It will be the best money you ever spent. The main goal is to appear professional and courteous to the more...er...rigid pilots out there. Good luck!

How do you deal with waiting for inbound traffic with a rope laying the length of the runway? Or do you not lay it out until all is clear? I'm contemplating something similar at my home airport, but it is used by Air Tractors that fight wildfires during the summer months. They tend to think they own the whole show and have priority over everything else.

[AS]

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 12:59:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hi Richard, I own/operate a commercial glider operation (16 years now!) at a Municipal airport in Faribault,MN called Cross Country Soaring, Inc. The majority of our operations are behind a Socata Rallye 235E pulling a pair of Grob 103 Twin IIs and a dozen private owners. We do a fair amount of winching also. A decade ago I bought a 330HP Gehrlein winch and have a mile of 6MM Dyneema on the drum. The trick to operating at a GA airport (in my experience) is to get everyone on board - the local power pilots, the airport manager, FSDO. You can't approach it with, "gliders are one of the seven categories of aircraft and have a right to operate from federally-funded airports blah blah". That argument can be easily toppled at a meeting (that you aren't invited to) where concerns about safety, legit or otherwise, win the day. Instead, write up a "Winch Operations Manual" which covers every step of a winch launch. It should absolutely reek with courtesy towards power traffic, professionalism, and clear radio communication. Once your local FSDO signs off (yup - send them a copy), the airport manager can relax and most local power pilots think it looks cool as hell. :-) The hard part is playing second fiddle while winching. E.G. radio: "Glider holding for inbound traffic (ten miles out)". Or, "Winch retrieve car, clearing the active for Warrior on downwind (doing it's 10th touch-and-go)". That's hard. But, it's the price. Also, take the local power guys up on a launch or two. No charge. It will be the best money you ever spent. The main goal is to appear professional and courteous to the more...er...rigid pilots out there. Good luck!

You summed it up nicely, Don! in addition to all the things you mentioned, we ask the city employees running the airport to add 'Gliders operating off the field' to the AWOS. Also, the winch operator announces every takeoff warning approaching traffic not to do a mid-field crossing below a certain altitude (typically twice the expected release altitude) for the next minute since wings and Spectra don't mix well. We also invite the local power and jet guys regularly to fly with us. The biz-jet guys have followed our request to call in an estimated time overhead instead of '15 miles out to the north', which gives us a much better idea for whether to go or hold the launch. As I mentioned above, communication is key!

>> How do you deal with waiting for inbound traffic with a rope laying the length of the runway? <<
We are fortunate enough to be able to operate off the grassy area next to the main runway, so we don't have that problem.

Uli
'AS'

[Mike Hendron]

Regarding winch lines on the runway, we also tend to winch from a dirt/grass area next to the runway, so we don't have to worry about they line on the runway. We have done both, and have tried things like keeping the line in the gravel next to the runway, but it is not ideal to have active operations on the runway while you have a line out. So we found an approach to not do that.

And as mentioned, our radio calls also advise traffic to avoid area of launch to keep traffic clear of the line. But we are particularly vigilant in watching for other traffic in or near the pattern or transitioning, and we just don't launch until we are confident the space is clear.

Mike Hendron

[son_of_flubber]

How do winch operations handle NORDO traffic at airports open to the public?

[AS]

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 2:15:33 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> How do winch operations handle NORDO traffic at airports open to the public?

Good old 'MK-VIII' eyeballs in a head on the swivel!
Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

> How do you deal with waiting for inbound traffic with a rope laying the length of the runway? Or do you not lay it out until all is clear? I'm contemplating something similar at my home airport, but it is used by Air Tractors that fight wildfires during the summer months. They tend to think they own the whole show and have priority over everything else.

____________________________

Sorry for the delay. Good question. We never have the rope on the runway except for the few seconds during the launch. A friend with some welding skill has made a tow bar for me that fits into the trailer receiver on my truck (Pathfinder). It protrudes a couple of feet off to the side of the truck and allows us to drive down the runway while the rope drags on the grass between the runway and the runway lights. It is hinged and bungeed so that once the rope is released the bar folds in so the driver doesn't accidentally sweep someone off their feet (shoot me an email if you want a picture of it - ). That keeps abrasion down and like you said, we don't have to worry that it is on the runway. Another unexpected benefit is a smoother" initial acceleration" since the rope slides out of the grass onto the runway as load is applied.
Another nice point to mention to 'concerned airport folks' is that the line is in the air for less than a minute, and above pattern altitude for mere seconds. A radio call before launch and a good look at a two-mile radius of the sky brings the risk factor down into the realm of everything else that goes on in the sky! :-)