Canadian pilot posts ILLEGAL flight into US on OLC

[2G]

This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US:

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7436890

Here is what you have to do PRIOR to flying into the US, regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/airspace/

Here is just one excerpt:

All civil, private aircraft entering the U.S. must first land at an airport of entry before continuing to their destinations, unless other arrangements are made with U.S. CBP.

The penalties for violating these laws is pretty stiff, including confiscation of the offending aircraft. And, if you are going to break US law anyhow, DON'T post your flight on the Internet!

[Charles Longley]

You need to read up on the laws a little bit. You don’t need to clear customs if you don’t land.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 10:52:06 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> You need to read up on the laws a little bit. You don’t need to clear customs if you don’t land.

True, but don't forget the overflight fees:

Fees in U.S.-Controlled Airspace:

The FAA charges overflight fees to operators of aircraft that fly in U.S.-controlled airspace, but neither take off nor land in the United States.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overflight_fees/

[Ramy[_2_]]

Tom, ask yourself who you made look bad by your post.

Ramy

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 8:02:23 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 10:52:06 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > You need to read up on the laws a little bit. You don’t need to clear customs if you don’t land.
>
> True, but don't forget the overflight fees:
>
> Fees in U.S.-Controlled Airspace:
>
> The FAA charges overflight fees to operators of aircraft that fly in U.S.-controlled airspace, but neither take off nor land in the United States.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overflight_fees/

Is this the fun police?
Jim

[Charles Longley]

Pretty awesome flight!

[[email protected]]

Should have just asked for asylum on 123.3

[[email protected]]

No service, no fee. If he opened a flight plan, that's all that's required.

Of course, that doesn't work in TFR's because gliders are specifically excluded - WTF?

By the way, if you ever file a flight plan for a glider, type is GLID/

[AS]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 11:02:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 10:52:06 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > You need to read up on the laws a little bit. You don’t need to clear customs if you don’t land.
>
> True, but don't forget the overflight fees:
>
> Fees in U.S.-Controlled Airspace:
>
> The FAA charges overflight fees to operators of aircraft that fly in U.S.-controlled airspace, but neither take off nor land in the United States.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overflight_fees/

Just for clarification - how is US-controlled airspace defined in this case? Does that mean any airspace over US territory regardless whether an ATC service was provided or controlled airspace like Class A, B, etc.? The pilot of the Arcus M took good care staying out of Class A and there is no other controlled airspace in his flight path, so would that overflight fee apply?
And yes - that was an awesome flight! :-)

Uli
'AS'

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 7:22:27 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US:
>
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7436890
>
> Here is what you have to do PRIOR to flying into the US, regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen:
>
> https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/airspace/
>
> Here is just one excerpt:
>
> All civil, private aircraft entering the U.S. must first land at an airport of entry before continuing to their destinations, unless other arrangements are made with U.S. CBP.
>
> The penalties for violating these laws is pretty stiff, including confiscation of the offending aircraft. And, if you are going to break US law anyhow, DON'T post your flight on the Internet!

I'm not a member so I can only see the small map. It appears the Arcus entered US airspace just north of Babb MT, and continued approximately 240 km to near Wolf Creek before very closely retracing its path.

On the following FAA web page ...

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overflight_fees/

.... I see a charge current Jan 1 2019 for En-route overflight of $61.75 per 100 nautical miles great circle distance from POINT OF ENTRY to POINT OF EXIT from U.S.-controlled airspace.

I estimate the distance from point of entry to point of exit on the 49th parallel to be something on the order of two or three miles. Accordingly the fee that might be due would be in the range of maybe $1.20 to $1.80.

Does the original poster have knowledge or evidence of any communications that might have taken place between the glider and US ATC, or that no such communication took place?

[Bob Youngblood]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 10:22:27 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US:
>
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7436890
>
> Here is what you have to do PRIOR to flying into the US, regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen:
>
> https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/airspace/
>
> Here is just one excerpt:
>
> All civil, private aircraft entering the U.S. must first land at an airport of entry before continuing to their destinations, unless other arrangements are made with U.S. CBP.
>
> The penalties for violating these laws is pretty stiff, including confiscation of the offending aircraft. And, if you are going to break US law anyhow, DON'T post your flight on the Internet!

This flight would have never happened in the winter months, all the Canadians would be in Florida.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 07:10 25 July 2019, Bob Youngblood wrote:
>On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 10:22:27 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>> This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently,
following the
>laws of the US:
>>
>>
>https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?
dsId=7436890
>>
>> Here is what you have to do PRIOR to flying into the US,
regardless of
>whether or not you are a US citizen:
>>
>>
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/airspace
/
>>
>> Here is just one excerpt:
>>
>> All civil, private aircraft entering the U.S. must first land at an
>airport of entry before continuing to their destinations, unless
other
>arrangements are made with U.S. CBP.
>>
>> The penalties for violating these laws is pretty stiff, including
>confiscation of the offending aircraft. And, if you are going to break
US
>law anyhow, DON'T post your flight on the Internet!
>
>This flight would have never happened in the winter months, all
the
>Canadians would be in Florida.

********, that's when the wave of the Rockies is usually the best,
maybe you have seen some of Chester's earlier flights. Nobody
mentioning Kieth Essex's flights across the border into Canada a few
years ago I see. I guess you guys should be afraid -War of 1812.
FFS what a thing to post -did you check the facts first with the pilot
about what happened before posting?

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 12:54:13 AM UTC-4, AS wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 11:02:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 10:52:06 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > You need to read up on the laws a little bit. You don’t need to clear customs if you don’t land.
> >
> > True, but don't forget the overflight fees:
> >
> > Fees in U.S.-Controlled Airspace:
> >
> > The FAA charges overflight fees to operators of aircraft that fly in U.S.-controlled airspace, but neither take off nor land in the United States.
> >
> > https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/international_aviation/overflight_fees/
>
> Just for clarification - how is US-controlled airspace defined in this case? Does that mean any airspace over US territory regardless whether an ATC service was provided or controlled airspace like Class A, B, etc.? The pilot of the Arcus M took good care staying out of Class A and there is no other controlled airspace in his flight path, so would that overflight fee apply?
> And yes - that was an awesome flight! :-)
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

"Controlled" airspace includes A B C D E. Only G is not controlled(i.e under the oversight of radar).
UH

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I'm just curious if he had a transponder (powered on) in his glider and if he had been detected crossing the border would have found himself in a thermal with some exciting US military hardware? Ditto question if he was flying out of Mexico!

[[email protected]]

Good morning, everybody! I'm the pilot of that beautiful glider.

A few points

1) I have the transponder on all the time when I'm over 10,000 feet (or in controlled airspace, or America) - which means I'm being data logged by ATC, flightradar24, etc. I fly as if I'm visible all the time.

2) I file a flight plan for any flight that might require clearances. You Americans are lucky (at least in Montana), we have Class B airways all over the place in Canada.

3) I start talking to Salt Lake well before crossing over, keeps the blood pressure down on the air defense types.

4) It is necessary to get pre-clearance to land in the USA. I have done so but the conditions prevented the trip). US customs tells me they don't want me to do so on every overflight. They would prefer to see emergencies treated as such.

Many Canadian glider pilots are also very confused by how to legally overfly the USA. Pretty simple - file flight plan, use transponder and get unique squawk code, talk to ATC, don't land out.

[Mike C]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 9:28:25 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Good morning, everybody! I'm the pilot of that beautiful glider.
>
> A few points
>
> 1) I have the transponder on all the time when I'm over 10,000 feet (or in controlled airspace, or America) - which means I'm being data logged by ATC, flightradar24, etc. I fly as if I'm visible all the time.
>
> 2) I file a flight plan for any flight that might require clearances. You Americans are lucky (at least in Montana), we have Class B airways all over the place in Canada.
>
> 3) I start talking to Salt Lake well before crossing over, keeps the blood pressure down on the air defense types.
>
> 4) It is necessary to get pre-clearance to land in the USA. I have done so but the conditions prevented the trip). US customs tells me they don't want me to do so on every overflight. They would prefer to see emergencies treated as such.
>
> Many Canadian glider pilots are also very confused by how to legally overfly the USA. Pretty simple - file flight plan, use transponder and get unique squawk code, talk to ATC, don't land out.

AWESOME FLIGHT!!!

[BobW]

On 7/24/2019 8:22 PM, 2G wrote:
> This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the
> laws of the US:
>
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7436890

<Remainder of thread-originating post snipped...>

Judging from the later-in-thread post from the pilot of this flight, the
"Subject"-line and assertion above are (apparently) seriously incorrect. Kinda
makes *me* wonder why someone would choose to post this sort of (easily taken
to be) "in your face" assertion, under its OVERT thread-header (instead of -
say - a more-reasonably-phrased question beneath a more neutrally-colored
"Subject"-line). Different strokes, I guess...

Great flight, IMO!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Ramy[_2_]]

Awesome flight Chester! I recommend in the future to add a comment in OLC indicating the legality of the flight. We often do this when we get clearance to fly in restricted airspace, to calm down the fun police. I am waiting for Tom (2G) to say “sorry, my bad for not checking with the pilot before posting�.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

I'm happy to see the fears about cross-border flights get hashed out in a public forum.

After my last flight well into the USA, I called Helena and Great Falls customs, to discuss what would have happened if I had landed out. They had both heard about the flight. ATC wasn't 100% convinced I was not going to land, and had called customs. Lesson learned - be totally clear in your flight plan.

I will make a note in OLC in the future that the overflight was legal.

[Charles Longley]

So I fly out of Ephrata and Arlington, WA. What would make the Canadians happy if I flew into their airspace? I am probably going to install a transponder this winter.

[Tony[_5_]]

Yea very cool!

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 10:34:54 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> So I fly out of Ephrata and Arlington, WA. What would make the Canadians happy if I flew into their airspace? I am probably going to install a transponder this winter.

1) You would file an American Flight Plan 1-800-WX-BRIEF (took me forever to figure out that you file the flight plan for the country where you are taking off from)

2) Talk to USA ATC for your area, get a transponder code. In Canada, we squawk 1202 until they give us a different code. You might be able to do this on the ground before taking off.

3) Tell USA ATC as you approach the border that you are leaving, switch over to Canada ATC. I think you would be talking to one of the "East" frequencies on this page. http://www.canairradio.com/bc.html They are likely hailed as Pacific Center.

Not sure what happens if you drop below transponder coverage.

[Jock Proudfoot]

At 16:52 25 July 2019, wrote:
>On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 10:34:54 AM UTC-6, Charles
Longley wrote:
>> So I fly out of Ephrata and Arlington, WA. What would make the
Canadians
>happy if I flew into their airspace? I am probably going to install a
>transponder this winter.
>
>1) You would file an American Flight Plan 1-800-WX-BRIEF (took
me forever
>to figure out that you file the flight plan for the country where you
are
>taking off from)
>
>2) Talk to USA ATC for your area, get a transponder code. In
Canada, we
>squawk 1202 until they give us a different code. You might be
able to do
>this on the ground before taking off.
>
>3) Tell USA ATC as you approach the border that you are leaving,
switch
>over to Canada ATC. I think you would be talking to one of the
"East"
>frequencies on this page. http://www.canairradio.com/bc.html
They are
>likely hailed as Pacific Center.
>
>Not sure what happens if you drop below transponder coverage.
>
I think that Chester's flight is a new record for Canadian Territorial
Free Out & Return.
Well done Chester.

[2G]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 7:52:06 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> You need to read up on the laws a little bit. You don’t need to clear customs if you don’t land.

Well, I DID look up the law (reread the post). The FAA clearly states:

All civil, private aircraft entering the U.S. must first land at an airport of entry before continuing to their destinations, unless other arrangements are made with U.S. CBP.

Now, tell me where there is an exception for an aircraft whose final destination is in Canada?

Tom

[George Haeh]

If you fly from the US into Canada, ATC or FSS likely can tell you the adjacent Canadian ATC frequency you need to talk to.

See below for NavCanada FISE:

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Pages/on-board-operational-initiatives-rco.aspx

Unfortunately Canada has Class B over 12,500 in low level airways and terminal areas which requires a clearance. Close to the border, Class B holes are few and far between.

[[email protected]]

Good question. Millions of passengers overfly foreign countries every year. They are not treated as entering each country they fly over. Somehow, flying over doesn't count as entering.

[2G]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 9:09:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Awesome flight Chester! I recommend in the future to add a comment in OLC indicating the legality of the flight. We often do this when we get clearance to fly in restricted airspace, to calm down the fun police. I am waiting for Tom (2G) to say “sorry, my bad for not checking with the pilot before posting�.
>
> Ramy

Ramy, I DID read his comments: it said nothing about obtaining a clearance to enter the US. Had he, we wouldn't be discussing it now - and he should have (I included that for a flight that passed thru Clover Control's restricted area).

BTW, what does fun have to do with following FARs, anyhow?

Tom

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 2:50:42 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 9:09:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Awesome flight Chester! I recommend in the future to add a comment in OLC indicating the legality of the flight. We often do this when we get clearance to fly in restricted airspace, to calm down the fun police. I am waiting for Tom (2G) to say “sorry, my bad for not checking with the pilot before posting�.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy, I DID read his comments: it said nothing about obtaining a clearance to enter the US. Had he, we wouldn't be discussing it now - and he should have (I included that for a flight that passed thru Clover Control's restricted area).
>
> BTW, what does fun have to do with following FARs, anyhow?
>
> Tom


This conversation sent me searching the interweb for an explanation:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201811/why-its-so-hard-some-people-admit-they-were-wrong

Without the humiliatingly incorrect use of CAPS LOCK in the thread title I might never have learned the useful procedure for legal flight across our northern border. I'm thankful for that.

Andy Blackburn
9B

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 12:50:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 9:09:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Awesome flight Chester! I recommend in the future to add a comment in OLC indicating the legality of the flight. We often do this when we get clearance to fly in restricted airspace, to calm down the fun police. I am waiting for Tom (2G) to say “sorry, my bad for not checking with the pilot before posting�.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy, I DID read his comments: it said nothing about obtaining a clearance to enter the US. Had he, we wouldn't be discussing it now - and he should have (I included that for a flight that passed thru Clover Control's restricted area).
>
> BTW, what does fun have to do with following FARs, anyhow?
>
> Tom

Yep, I didn't expect you will admit your post was wrong, especially the subject saying "ILLEGAL". But Chester is much more forgiving than I am, and it was good to discuss the procedures for flying across the borders legally, so I'll rest my case.

Ramy

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 7/25/2019 9:52 AM:
> On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 10:34:54 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
>> So I fly out of Ephrata and Arlington, WA. What would make the Canadians happy if I flew into their airspace? I am probably going to install a transponder this winter.
>
> 1) You would file an American Flight Plan 1-800-WX-BRIEF (took me forever to figure out that you file the flight plan for the country where you are taking off from)
>
> 2) Talk to USA ATC for your area, get a transponder code. In Canada, we squawk 1202 until they give us a different code. You might be able to do this on the ground before taking off.
>
> 3) Tell USA ATC as you approach the border that you are leaving, switch over to Canada ATC. I think you would be talking to one of the "East" frequencies on this page. http://www.canairradio.com/bc.html They are likely hailed as Pacific Center.
>
> Not sure what happens if you drop below transponder coverage.

I'm pleased your flight was legal. I'm not likely to try a cross-border flight,
but now I can fantasize about it more knowledgeably.

Did USA ATC have you use "flight following"? Did you have to have a flight plan
for the entire flight, or just the US portion? And I wonder about each countries
ATC response to several gliders on the same mission the same day.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[[email protected]]

I have had Salt Lake Center offer flight following; Edmonton Center sometimes offers as well. I assume the US side keeps a close eye on me, even when I'm not being "flight followed".

The flight plan covers the entire flight. I keep my flight plan vague, that's the reality of gliding.

My concern with ATC is their workload. Don't make them worry about you, tell them when you are heading back to Canada. If there was a half-dozen experienced pilots doing the same flight, I think ATC would accept it. By contrast, if you have 6 canadian gliders transiting the descent airways into Calgary, that quickly becomes untenable.

Cruising along the eastern slopes north of Helena is not going to be conflicting with a lot of jet traffic descending into big airports. I'm not going to drop behind a mountain and disappear off radar because I'm effectively flying on the prairies. If the wave dies, I have a 50+ kt tailwind out of the SW, easily giving me glide to Canada. If I don't have glide to Canada, the engine comes out over an airport. If the engine fails, let ATC know and accept that I might have to explain this weird hobby to a judge.

The further south the flight goes, the risk of not making it home goes up. Wave terrain continues way south of Jackson Hole, but at some point (around Helena, in my estimation) it makes sense to land, clear Customs, and continue on with less potential legal consequences.


Chester

> I'm pleased your flight was legal. I'm not likely to try a cross-border flight,
> but now I can fantasize about it more knowledgeably.
>
> Did USA ATC have you use "flight following"? Did you have to have a flight plan
> for the entire flight, or just the US portion? And I wonder about each countries
> ATC response to several gliders on the same mission the same day.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
> http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[son_of_flubber]

Just curious. Say a Canadian registered glider is trailered across the border into the USA. It takes off in the USA, turns on the transponder and flies in Class E. All good? No need to contact ATC right?

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 3:50:42 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 9:09:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Awesome flight Chester! I recommend in the future to add a comment in OLC indicating the legality of the flight. We often do this when we get clearance to fly in restricted airspace, to calm down the fun police. I am waiting for Tom (2G) to say “sorry, my bad for not checking with the pilot before posting�.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy, I DID read his comments: it said nothing about obtaining a clearance to enter the US. Had he, we wouldn't be discussing it now - and he should have (I included that for a flight that passed thru Clover Control's restricted area).
>
> BTW, what does fun have to do with following FARs, anyhow?
>
> Tom

Tom, you are way out of line publishing your insinuation that the pilot did not follow the US law. Here is your statement "This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US".
You just make our community look really bad and then you blame the pilot for not posting that he was entering legally, really?
I don't write much here, but these kinds of things really bother me. Stop pointing fingers at others, it is just not a nice thing to do.
Andrzej

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 12:50:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> Ramy, I DID read his comments: it said nothing about obtaining a clearance to enter the US...

Tom, Chester doesn't owe you an explanation in the comments, he doesn't owe you ****. You're the one who failed to research the topic, didn't ask the pilot in question, jumped to a conclusion, and posted an incorrect assertion under an incendiary headline.

--Bob K.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 4:13:04 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 12:50:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 9:09:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > Awesome flight Chester! I recommend in the future to add a comment in OLC indicating the legality of the flight. We often do this when we get clearance to fly in restricted airspace, to calm down the fun police. I am waiting for Tom (2G) to say “sorry, my bad for not checking with the pilot before posting�.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > Ramy, I DID read his comments: it said nothing about obtaining a clearance to enter the US. Had he, we wouldn't be discussing it now - and he should have (I included that for a flight that passed thru Clover Control's restricted area).
> >
> > BTW, what does fun have to do with following FARs, anyhow?
> >
> > Tom
>
> Yep, I didn't expect you will admit your post was wrong, especially the subject saying "ILLEGAL". But Chester is much more forgiving than I am, and it was good to discuss the procedures for flying across the borders legally, so I'll rest my case.
>
> Ramy

Yes, Chester showed us how to behave on RAS.

[Dave Nadler]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 5:42:14 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> ...failed to research the topic, didn't ask the pilot in question, jumped
> to a conclusion, and posted an incorrect assertion under an incendiary headline.

Yep, just another day on RAS...

[Charles Longley]

FAR 91.707
Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate a civil aircraft between Mexico or Canada and the United States without filing an IFR or VFR flight plan, as appropriate.

You don’t need a clearance to enter US airspace Tom. Just file a VFR flight plan. There’s no ADIZ between Canada and the US by the way..

Personally I think you’re jealous....

[2G]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 2:58:23 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> FAR 91.707
> Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate a civil aircraft between Mexico or Canada and the United States without filing an IFR or VFR flight plan, as appropriate.
>
> You don’t need a clearance to enter US airspace Tom. Just file a VFR flight plan. There’s no ADIZ between Canada and the US by the way.
>
> Personally I think you’re jealous....

LOL! Jealous? Hardly.

Based on what I read on the FAA's website, a landing at a port of entry was required, which Chester did not do. It is the FAA's website that is, apparently, wrong or inaccurate. I am awaiting a call back from my local FSDO on this issue.

Tom

[Charles Longley]

Pretty sure they’ll find no wrong doing. Having said that. You are a total dick!

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 22:10 25 July 2019, 2G wrote:
>On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 2:58:23 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley
wrote:
>> FAR 91.707
>> Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate a
civil
>aircraf=
>t between Mexico or Canada and the United States without filing an
IFR or
>V=
>FR flight plan, as appropriate.
>>=20
>> You don=E2=80=99t need a clearance to enter US airspace
Tom. Just file a
>=
>VFR flight plan. There=E2=80=99s no ADIZ between Canada and
the US by the
>w=
>ay.
>>=20
>> Personally I think you=E2=80=99re jealous....
>
>LOL! Jealous? Hardly.
>
>Based on what I read on the FAA's website, a landing at a port of
entry
>was=
> required, which Chester did not do. It is the FAA's website that is,
>appar=
>ently, wrong or inaccurate. I am awaiting a call back from my local
FSDO
>on=
> this issue.
>
>Tom

What a total dickhead -FFS what does it matter to you? - still
grieving over 1812?, some Canuck did you wrong in the past??.....
with guys like you around no wonder soaring is in decline.

[Marton KSz]

> "Based on what I read on the FAA's website, a landing at a port of entry was required"

Are they giving you a tow as well for your flight back to CA, after you've landed and cleared your customs?

[2G]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 3:43:11 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> Pretty sure they’ll find no wrong doing. Having said that. You are a total dick!

And it's been a pleasure talking with you, too!

[2G]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 4:15:05 PM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:
> At 22:10 25 July 2019, 2G wrote:
> >On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 2:58:23 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley
> wrote:
> >> FAR 91.707
> >> Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate a
> civil
> >aircraf=
> >t between Mexico or Canada and the United States without filing an
> IFR or
> >V=
> >FR flight plan, as appropriate.
> >>=20
> >> You don=E2=80=99t need a clearance to enter US airspace
> Tom. Just file a
> >=
> >VFR flight plan. There=E2=80=99s no ADIZ between Canada and
> the US by the
> >w=
> >ay.
> >>=20
> >> Personally I think you=E2=80=99re jealous....
> >
> >LOL! Jealous? Hardly.
> >
> >Based on what I read on the FAA's website, a landing at a port of
> entry
> >was=
> > required, which Chester did not do. It is the FAA's website that is,
> >appar=
> >ently, wrong or inaccurate. I am awaiting a call back from my local
> FSDO
> >on=
> > this issue.
> >
> >Tom
>
> What a total dickhead -FFS what does it matter to you? - still
> grieving over 1812?, some Canuck did you wrong in the past??.....
> with guys like you around no wonder soaring is in decline.

Following the FARs is not optional. Pilots who violate them can impact ALL of us, including you. I wonder how that inspector will react when you call him/her a "dickhead?"

[[email protected]]

Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 3:41:21 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Just curious. Say a Canadian registered glider is trailered across the border into the USA. It takes off in the USA, turns on the transponder and flies in Class E. All good? No need to contact ATC right?

No need to contact ATC - at least, if I did that I wouldn't feel any obligation to do so. I'm in the habit of talking to ATC - if they need to give me hell, they know I'm on frequency. You need to make sure your C of A allows flying outside of Canada.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 00:11 26 July 2019, 2G wrote:
>On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 4:15:05 PM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:
>> At 22:10 25 July 2019, 2G wrote:
>> >On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 2:58:23 PM UTC-7, Charles
Longley
>> wrote:
>> >> FAR 91.707
>> >> Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate
a
>> civil
>> >aircraf=
>> >t between Mexico or Canada and the United States without
filing an
>> IFR or
>> >V=
>> >FR flight plan, as appropriate.
>> >>=20
>> >> You don=E2=80=99t need a clearance to enter US airspace
>> Tom. Just file a
>> >=
>> >VFR flight plan. There=E2=80=99s no ADIZ between Canada
and
>> the US by the
>> >w=
>> >ay.
>> >>=20
>> >> Personally I think you=E2=80=99re jealous....
>> >
>> >LOL! Jealous? Hardly.
>> >
>> >Based on what I read on the FAA's website, a landing at a port
of
>> entry
>> >was=
>> > required, which Chester did not do. It is the FAA's website that
is,
>> >appar=
>> >ently, wrong or inaccurate. I am awaiting a call back from my
local
>> FSDO
>> >on=
>> > this issue.
>> >
>> >Tom
>>
>> What a total dickhead -FFS what does it matter to you? - still
>> grieving over 1812?, some Canuck did you wrong in the
past??.....
>> with guys like you around no wonder soaring is in decline.
>
>Following the FARs is not optional. Pilots who violate them can
impact ALL
>of us, including you. I wonder how that inspector will react when
you call
>him/her a "dickhead?"

Thank f..k I don't have to soar in your godforsaken country. Chester
has graciously come on here and explained how the flight was
undertaken - now you should be celebrating the fact that it was a
magnificent flight, but no you want to raise merry hell and look for
some indiscretion. I hope the whole gliding world shuns you.

[[email protected]]

Is a transponder even required? I didn't think so. Of course better to squawk and be on freq if possible.

[Patrick McMahon]

I really hope the patriot who started this thread can't delete it - so valuable!

I've been a part of one of these flights (wave and border flirting) - nearly 8 hours @ 100mph, 10 days before the winter solstice. It was a completely different sport and the most spectacular human experience. Thank you!

Chester and I talked a lot about managing the airspace on that flight and afterward, and he has dedicated a lot of time, effort and consideration toward not only doing this legally but to do it that respects the controllers and the law - make friends, not foes.

This wave has been here for a while, it'll be here for a while longer, and the Arcus is just barely celebrating its first year out of the box. Patience, young man, patience, we're just getting warmed up, making sure the ground rules are known before he puts the nose down.

Puzzle pieces.

Some things Chester wants you to learn for yourself, but how to keep friends, and follow the rules, he's evidently happy to share - and we're all better for it.

Thanks Chester!

[Patrick McMahon]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 5:07:18 PM UTC-6, Marton KSz wrote:
> > "Based on what I read on the FAA's website, a landing at a port of entry was required"
>
> Are they giving you a tow as well for your flight back to CA, after you've landed and cleared your customs?

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en/sailplanes/arcus/arcus-m/

Smarten up.

[[email protected]]

Jeez much ado about nothing. Harold Eloy made multiple very long (for a 1-26) flights out of canada into North Dakota and beyond. If the perfect day materializes for a flight into canada I will go for it, talk to whoever I can get from ATC and deal with customs after the fact. Its much easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission much of the time.

[Dan Marotta]

Welllll.....Â* I think it was a pretty decent flight.Â* Congrats!

And, as to landing at a port of entry to clear customs, I'd bet that's
only required if you intend to land in the country, not fly over it.

On 7/25/2019 7:17 PM, wrote:
> Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.

--
Dan, 5J

[ripacheco1967]

Good clarification!!!

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 7/26/2019 7:44 AM:
> Jeez much ado about nothing. Harold Eloy made multiple very long (for a 1-26) flights out of canada into North Dakota and beyond. If the perfect day materializes for a flight into canada I will go for it, talk to whoever I can get from ATC and deal with customs after the fact. Its much easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission much of the time.

I suggest you research this choice before you use it. If it's not an emergency,
and you land in Canada or the USA without permission, they may not be very
forgiving. Confiscation of your glider seems a real possibility. My experience
with Customs (US and Canada) is they are often deeply offended by people that
don't follow the correct protocol, and it can expensive and time-consuming to deal
with them.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:28:30 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 7/26/2019 7:44 AM:
> > Jeez much ado about nothing. Harold Eloy made multiple very long (for a 1-26) flights out of canada into North Dakota and beyond. If the perfect day materializes for a flight into canada I will go for it, talk to whoever I can get from ATC and deal with customs after the fact. Its much easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission much of the time.
>
> I suggest you research this choice before you use it. If it's not an emergency,
> and you land in Canada or the USA without permission, they may not be very
> forgiving. Confiscation of your glider seems a real possibility. My experience
> with Customs (US and Canada) is they are often deeply offended by people that
> don't follow the correct protocol, and it can expensive and time-consuming to deal
> with them.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
> http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

Technically we can declare any glider landout as an emergency. May require to follow up with paperwork, but may be better than dealing with custom...

Ramy

[Bob Youngblood]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 10:22:27 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US:
>
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7436890
>
> Here is what you have to do PRIOR to flying into the US, regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen:
>
> https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/airspace/
>
> Here is just one excerpt:
>
That was a very nice flight, keep up the good work and come back soon.
> All civil, private aircraft entering the U.S. must first land at an airport of entry before continuing to their destinations, unless other arrangements are made with U.S. CBP.
>
> The penalties for violating these laws is pretty stiff, including confiscation of the offending aircraft. And, if you are going to break US law anyhow, DON'T post your flight on the Internet!

[2G]

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:17:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.

Hello Fellow Dickhead,

I don't need to "tattle" on anyone: Chester did that all by himself by posting his flight on a public forum. Furthermore, my objective is to learn the nuances of the law, not to "tattle." And a quick search turned up the following US Code:

8 U.S. Code § 1287. Alien crewmen brought into the United States with intent to evade immigration laws; penalties

Any person, including the owner, agent, consignee, master, or commanding officer of any vessel or aircraft arriving in the United States from any place outside thereof, who shall knowingly sign on the vessel’s articles, or bring to the United States as one of the crew of such vessel or aircraft, any alien, with intent to permit or assist such alien to enter or land in the United States in violation of law, or who shall falsely and knowingly represent to a consular officer at the time of application for visa, or to the immigration officer at the port of arrival in the United States, that such alien is a bona fide member of the crew employed in any capacity regularly required for normal operation and services aboard such vessel or aircraft, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding $10,000 for each such violation, for which sum such vessel or aircraft shall be liable and may be seized and proceeded against by way of libel in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the offense.

=================

Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.

[Dan Marotta]

I read of no intent to land in the US in the original post.Â* I'd say
that 8 U.S. Code § 1287 is irrelevant.

On 7/26/2019 1:57 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:17:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.
> Hello Fellow Dickhead,
>
> I don't need to "tattle" on anyone: Chester did that all by himself by posting his flight on a public forum. Furthermore, my objective is to learn the nuances of the law, not to "tattle." And a quick search turned up the following US Code:
>
> 8 U.S. Code § 1287. Alien crewmen brought into the United States with intent to evade immigration laws; penalties
>
> Any person, including the owner, agent, consignee, master, or commanding officer of any vessel or aircraft arriving in the United States from any place outside thereof, who shall knowingly sign on the vessel’s articles, or bring to the United States as one of the crew of such vessel or aircraft, any alien, with intent to permit or assist such alien to enter or land in the United States in violation of law, or who shall falsely and knowingly represent to a consular officer at the time of application for visa, or to the immigration officer at the port of arrival in the United States, that such alien is a bona fide member of the crew employed in any capacity regularly required for normal operation and services aboard such vessel or aircraft, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding $10,000 for each such violation, for which sum such vessel or aircraft shall be liable and may be seized and proceeded against by way of libel in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the offense.
>
> =================
>
> Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.

--
Dan, 5J

[Marton KSz]

> Dan, 5J

> And, as to landing at a port of entry to clear customs, I'd bet that's
> only required if you intend to land in the country, not fly over it.

My understanding is the same; there is a difference between 'entering the U..S.' and 'flying in U.S. airspace'.
International airports are good examples to represent these two concepts: "The international zone in an international airport is the area where arriving international passengers have not formally entered the country by clearing arrival customs and immigration controls" - but they flew through the airspace, for sure.

[Bruce Friesen]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 7:22:27 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US:
>
Sorry, I should resist but I cannot.

This thread could be both amusing and informative, and well worth while. Unfortunately, the original poster is so keen to defend his error.

Every day, Westjet takes off from Vancouver and flies to Puerto Vallarta. For one example amongst hundreds. Every day. Clearly, there is some legal mechanism to do that. There is no doubt in my mind Chester has an understanding of the mechanisms and rules applicable to what he specifically is doing.

Should a passenger have a medical emergency on that Westjet flight, it will land in the U.S. not at the closest point of entry. Clearly, this is some legal mechanism to sort that out after the fact. Chester would be able to defend a landing as an emergency, given it would happen only with both a radical change in weather conditions and an engine failure.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 7/26/2019 12:57 PM:

> Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.

Tom remembers my incident correctly, but I don't think it's relevant to Chester's
flight. My situation was very different, because I contacted no one before or
after flying across the border (my bad - ignorance over 35 years ago), nor did I
contact anyone after I landed. Had I contacted the FSS at any time while flying
(and perhaps even after landing), customs would have been notified by the FSS, and
all would have been well.

Chester made sure everyone knew his intent before and during the flight, and
conducted it with the cooperation of ATC. He was flying a motorglider (I wasn't),
and could reasonably expect to return to Canada without landing. If ATC believed
he was operating illegally, they could've requested he land, but they didn't.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[2G]

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 1:56:17 PM UTC-7, Bruce Friesen wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 7:22:27 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US:
> >
> Sorry, I should resist but I cannot.
>
> This thread could be both amusing and informative, and well worth while. Unfortunately, the original poster is so keen to defend his error.
>
> Every day, Westjet takes off from Vancouver and flies to Puerto Vallarta. For one example amongst hundreds. Every day. Clearly, there is some legal mechanism to do that. There is no doubt in my mind Chester has an understanding of the mechanisms and rules applicable to what he specifically is doing.
>
> Should a passenger have a medical emergency on that Westjet flight, it will land in the U.S. not at the closest point of entry. Clearly, this is some legal mechanism to sort that out after the fact. Chester would be able to defend a landing as an emergency, given it would happen only with both a radical change in weather conditions and an engine failure.

I will concede that Chester's flight WAS NOT illegal, as I stated in the title. I did get a call-back from the Spokane FSDO, and it was pretty anti-climatic; they merely referred me to an AOPA webpage (which is pretty informative and is much better than the FAA's):

https://www.aopa.org/travel/international-travel/canada

It does mention not having to file an eAPIS, but no relief from the other requirements, if a flight that originates and ends at US airports, but crosses into Canadian airspace. It does not refer to the reverse situation, which would be Chester's case. The medical emergency you describe is bona fide; I am not as sure about Chester's case, which most likely would be weather related. And it would depend totally on which officer you had to deal with. Personally, I would not take the risk for this reason alone.

Tom

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:57:46 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:17:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.
>
> Hello Fellow Dickhead,
>
> I don't need to "tattle" on anyone: Chester did that all by himself by posting his flight on a public forum. Furthermore, my objective is to learn the nuances of the law, not to "tattle." And a quick search turned up the following US Code:
>
> 8 U.S. Code § 1287. Alien crewmen brought into the United States with intent to evade immigration laws; penalties
>
> Any person, including the owner, agent, consignee, master, or commanding officer of any vessel or aircraft arriving in the United States from any place outside thereof, who shall knowingly sign on the vessel’s articles, or bring to the United States as one of the crew of such vessel or aircraft, any alien, with intent to permit or assist such alien to enter or land in the United States in violation of law, or who shall falsely and knowingly represent to a consular officer at the time of application for visa, or to the immigration officer at the port of arrival in the United States, that such alien is a bona fide member of the crew employed in any capacity regularly required for normal operation and services aboard such vessel or aircraft, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding $10,000 for each such violation, for which sum such vessel or aircraft shall be liable and may be seized and proceeded against by way of libel in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the offense.
>
> =================
>
> Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.


Jeez Tom - If you find yourself in a hole the generally accepted advice is to stop digging rather than breaking out the backhoe.

Here’s a tip: Not a single person reading this thread thinks any of the defenses or deflections you’ve posted since have in any way justified the mistake of the original post. Quite the opposite. Blaming Chester for not preventing you from jumping to a wrong conclusion was just icing on the incredulity cake. Bringing in irrelevant customs or immigration regulations as defense for being wrong on an FAR topic is pure deflection.

You’ve expended an immense amount of energy trying to convince only yourself that you weren’t mistaken in your original post. Each additional post antagonizes more people but convinces no one. It’s a rare personality that elects to twist reality that far for self-rationalization - in this case seemingly without any recognition that everyone else sees through it. Go back and read my link to the psychology article, then have a private sit-down for some self-reflection.

Here’s a cut and paste reply for your next post:

“Chester - My bad, I had no idea you’d filed a flight plan. Congrats on such a great flight and the foresight to deal with ATC ahead of time. I’m curious if you’ve given much thought to what you’d do if you were forced to land before re-entering Canadian airspace. It seems like that might open up and entirely different can of worms with a different government agency�.

Just a suggestion. Or you can keep digging.

Happy soaring.

Andy Blackburn
9B

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Ramy wrote on 7/26/2019 11:48 AM:
> On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:28:30 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> wrote on 7/26/2019 7:44 AM:
>>> Jeez much ado about nothing. Harold Eloy made multiple very long (for a 1-26) flights out of canada into North Dakota and beyond. If the perfect day materializes for a flight into canada I will go for it, talk to whoever I can get from ATC and deal with customs after the fact. Its much easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission much of the time.
>>
>> I suggest you research this choice before you use it. If it's not an emergency,
>> and you land in Canada or the USA without permission, they may not be very
>> forgiving. Confiscation of your glider seems a real possibility. My experience
>> with Customs (US and Canada) is they are often deeply offended by people that
>> don't follow the correct protocol, and it can expensive and time-consuming to deal
>> with them.

>
> Technically we can declare any glider landout as an emergency. May require to follow up with paperwork, but may be better than dealing with custom...

I suspect Customs on either side would not buy that story if you flew into the
country and never made an attempt to return, unless weather clearly prevented you
from doing so (my situation on my only cross-border flight). Our own literature
(soaring articles, RAS, etc) could easily be used against a "technical" claim.

I think Chester's example is a good one: file a flight plan, talk to ATC on both
sides before you need to, and have a motor that can get you back to your country
without landing. So, Rami, order that ASG-29ES and move to Montana!


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

Our posts crossed in the ether. I give you partial credit for a partial admission. That you needed to soften the blow to your ego with the qualifier afterwards kind of makes it sound a little half-hearted, but I’ll count it as progress. Congrats.

Andy

[2G]

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 4:14:03 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:57:46 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:17:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.
> >
> > Hello Fellow Dickhead,
> >
> > I don't need to "tattle" on anyone: Chester did that all by himself by posting his flight on a public forum. Furthermore, my objective is to learn the nuances of the law, not to "tattle." And a quick search turned up the following US Code:
> >
> > 8 U.S. Code § 1287. Alien crewmen brought into the United States with intent to evade immigration laws; penalties
> >
> > Any person, including the owner, agent, consignee, master, or commanding officer of any vessel or aircraft arriving in the United States from any place outside thereof, who shall knowingly sign on the vessel’s articles, or bring to the United States as one of the crew of such vessel or aircraft, any alien, with intent to permit or assist such alien to enter or land in the United States in violation of law, or who shall falsely and knowingly represent to a consular officer at the time of application for visa, or to the immigration officer at the port of arrival in the United States, that such alien is a bona fide member of the crew employed in any capacity regularly required for normal operation and services aboard such vessel or aircraft, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding $10,000 for each such violation, for which sum such vessel or aircraft shall be liable and may be seized and proceeded against by way of libel in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the offense.
> >
> > =================
> >
> > Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.
>
>
> Jeez Tom - If you find yourself in a hole the generally accepted advice is to stop digging rather than breaking out the backhoe.
>
> Here’s a tip: Not a single person reading this thread thinks any of the defenses or deflections you’ve posted since have in any way justified the mistake of the original post. Quite the opposite. Blaming Chester for not preventing you from jumping to a wrong conclusion was just icing on the incredulity cake. Bringing in irrelevant customs or immigration regulations as defense for being wrong on an FAR topic is pure deflection.
>
> You’ve expended an immense amount of energy trying to convince only yourself that you weren’t mistaken in your original post. Each additional post antagonizes more people but convinces no one. It’s a rare personality that elects to twist reality that far for self-rationalization - in this case seemingly without any recognition that everyone else sees through it. Go back and read my link to the psychology article, then have a private sit-down for some self-reflection.
>
> Here’s a cut and paste reply for your next post:
>
> “Chester - My bad, I had no idea you’d filed a flight plan. Congrats on such a great flight and the foresight to deal with ATC ahead of time. I’m curious if you’ve given much thought to what you’d do if you were forced to land before re-entering Canadian airspace. It seems like that might open up and entirely different can of worms with a different government agency�.
>
> Just a suggestion. Or you can keep digging.
>
> Happy soaring.
>
> Andy Blackburn
> 9B

Andy,

At this point nothing that I say will please you, so I won't try.

Tom

[2G]

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:28:57 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 7/26/2019 12:57 PM:
>
> > Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.
>
> Tom remembers my incident correctly, but I don't think it's relevant to Chester's
> flight. My situation was very different, because I contacted no one before or
> after flying across the border (my bad - ignorance over 35 years ago), nor did I
> contact anyone after I landed. Had I contacted the FSS at any time while flying
> (and perhaps even after landing), customs would have been notified by the FSS, and
> all would have been well.
>
> Chester made sure everyone knew his intent before and during the flight, and
> conducted it with the cooperation of ATC. He was flying a motorglider (I wasn't),
> and could reasonably expect to return to Canada without landing. If ATC believed
> he was operating illegally, they could've requested he land, but they didn't.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
> http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

The only problem here is that you are dealing with two separate agencies, the FAA and the CBP. ATC's objectives (FAA) and duties are very much different from CBP, and it will be CBP that you will have to deal with (as you did), not the FAA. What it gets down to is: are you willing to throw the dice about how a CBP officer is going to react to a possible illegal landing (and something they never encountered before and have no understanding of)?

Tom

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

I awarded you some points, that’s something.

;-)

[2G]

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 5:49:18 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> I awarded you some points, that’s something.
>
> ;-)

I'm THRILLED!

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Totally agree....!!!!

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 7/26/2019 5:45 PM:
> On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:28:57 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 2G wrote on 7/26/2019 12:57 PM:
>>
>>> Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.
>>
>> Tom remembers my incident correctly, but I don't think it's relevant to Chester's
>> flight. My situation was very different, because I contacted no one before or
>> after flying across the border (my bad - ignorance over 35 years ago), nor did I
>> contact anyone after I landed. Had I contacted the FSS at any time while flying
>> (and perhaps even after landing), customs would have been notified by the FSS, and
>> all would have been well.
>>
>> Chester made sure everyone knew his intent before and during the flight, and
>> conducted it with the cooperation of ATC. He was flying a motorglider (I wasn't),
>> and could reasonably expect to return to Canada without landing. If ATC believed
>> he was operating illegally, they could've requested he land, but they didn't.
>>

> The only problem here is that you are dealing with two separate agencies, the FAA and the CBP. ATC's objectives (FAA) and duties are very much different from CBP, and it will be CBP that you will have to deal with (as you did), not the FAA. What it gets down to is: are you willing to throw the dice about how a CBP officer is going to react to a possible illegal landing (and something they never encountered before and have no understanding of)?

In my case, I dealt with neither the CBP or the FAA. It was US Customs that was
upset I had entered the USA and landed without permission or clearing Customs.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[[email protected]]

Many things surprised me in Bob's post, and since it is on the Internet, it must be true. Although he sounds suspiciously non-Canadian. I saw not one reference to hockey.

[[email protected]]

It’s July down here. The rink melted. It is sled dog racing season... Go Huskies!

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

Thanks for all the entertainment guys. Bob, your post was hilarious. Chester, you’re a class act. I hope to meet you in the skies some day. Tom, for the life of me I can’t fathom why you’d post such incendiary stuff. All, Chester and his immediate soaring community just lost two dear friends in a midair. This is a beautiful, but harsh hobby and fatalities happen all too often. My condolences to our neighbors to the north. So sorry we’ve lost a part of our community. Be well everyone & try to play nice.

[Frank Whiteley]

I suppose if you file a flight plan to soar into Canadian airspace and return to the US without landing in your experimental glider, you'd need to include a CC number to pay Transport Canada their $100 fee and maybe wait for a confirmation e-mail (like Best Buy and other vendors) before setting out;^)

Frank Whiteley

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Frank Whiteley wrote on 7/27/2019 7:52 AM:
> I suppose if you file a flight plan to soar into Canadian airspace and return to the US without landing in your experimental glider, you'd need to include a CC number to pay Transport Canada their $100 fee and maybe wait for a confirmation e-mail (like Best Buy and other vendors) before setting out;^)
>
From the AOPA website:

"Customs and Borders Protection requires an annual user fee decal ($27.50) – allow
a few weeks for delivery. "

And ...

"Thanks to an agreement between the FAA and Transport Canada, flying an
experimental aircraft into Canada is now easier than ever. All that is needed is
the document Standardized Validation of a Special Airworthiness
Certificate—Experimental, for the Purpose of Operating a United States-Registered
Amateur-Built Aircraft in Canadian Airspace which details the restrictions (minor
in nature) applicable in Canadian airspace. Download the form and carry it with
the aircraft at all times in Canada."

No more $100 fee. I did not investigate the need for either the CBP fee or the
form if you were only overflying, and not landing.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[2G]

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 7:26:00 AM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
> Thanks for all the entertainment guys. Bob, your post was hilarious. Chester, you’re a class act. I hope to meet you in the skies some day. Tom, for the life of me I can’t fathom why you’d post such incendiary stuff. All, Chester and his immediate soaring community just lost two dear friends in a midair. This is a beautiful, but harsh hobby and fatalities happen all too often. My condolences to our neighbors to the north.. So sorry we’ve lost a part of our community. Be well everyone & try to play nice.

I believe I have stated several times that Chester runs the very real risk of a $10,000 fine and/or seizure of his glider should he ever have to land in the US. And the CBP considers you guilty until you prove yourself innocent. That is just fact.

[glidergeek]

You have to be ****ing me, you mean there are glider pilots ( at least one) that have nothing better to do than scour the OLC flights and nit pick them on RAS? And what makes it worse the OP doesn’t even have enough class to admit his mistake. Shouldn’t you extend an apology tuck your tail and disappear and go polish your wings instead of pouring more avgas on the fire. If you really cared about this gentleman’s flight you should have PM’d him and kept this private then you wouldn’t be cleaning your foot in your mouth....is ****ing spelled with one T or two?

[Charlie Quebec]

I believe I have stated several times that you are a useless oxygen thief. If I haven’t, I do so now.
You were wrong in every way, and can’t bring your tiny little mind to accept that you proved yourself a complete idiot.

[BobW]

> I believe I have stated several times that you are a useless oxygen thief.
> If I haven’t, I do so now. You were wrong in every way, and can’t bring
> your tiny little mind to accept that you proved yourself a complete idiot.
Sheesh...to paraphrase Marlon Brando (I think it was): I love the smell of ad
hominem in the morning.

It remains a great international soaring flight!
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7436890

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[[email protected]]

2G that 'Blame Canada' song was just a joke. Satire. Wasn't serious, you are not supposed to hate Canadians. Thank you for following orders but you need to adjust your filter so you only follow real propaganda. And hate the right people, the ones your masters want you to hate.

[[email protected]]

Robert Duvall

[[email protected]]

Pompous? Moi? Mais non! I was just trying to be presidential. I guess I succeeded. Sorry, eh?? Or was it the offer of a free bandaid? We’re such showoffs with our universal health care.

I truly just st wanted a smile or two. The geography is a great bar bet down there. Unbeatable. None of this stuff matters anyway. If a Canadian glider pilot landed in the USA without permission he would live to fly another day. It’s an emergency landing in a (north) windstorm. Anyone argue with that?

But now I remember one reason I quit. The vast population of type Eh! personalities. Relax. Enjoy. It’s a fun sport. Impeachment will chill everyone out. You’ll need chilling. Your leaders deny climate change. Discuss how much better the soaring will be! Now THAT is being truly pompous. And we’ll sell you all our snow and then we’re all happy.

Bob

[Dan Marotta]

Was it your Prime Minister who wrote the Dunesbury comic strip, eh? You
Canucks have great senses of humour (misspelled intentionally). :-D

On 7/27/2019 7:16 PM, wrote:
> Pompous? Moi? Mais non! I was just trying to be presidential. I guess I succeeded. Sorry, eh?? Or was it the offer of a free bandaid? We’re such showoffs with our universal health care.
>
> I truly just st wanted a smile or two. The geography is a great bar bet down there. Unbeatable. None of this stuff matters anyway. If a Canadian glider pilot landed in the USA without permission he would live to fly another day. It’s an emergency landing in a (north) windstorm. Anyone argue with that?
>
> But now I remember one reason I quit. The vast population of type Eh! personalities. Relax. Enjoy. It’s a fun sport. Impeachment will chill everyone out. You’ll need chilling. Your leaders deny climate change. Discuss how much better the soaring will be! Now THAT is being truly pompous. And we’ll sell you all our snow and then we’re all happy.
>
> Bob

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 12:36:36 PM UTC-7, Glidergeek wrote:
> You have to be ****ing me, you mean there are glider pilots ( at least one) that have nothing better to do than scour the OLC flights and nit pick them on RAS? And what makes it worse the OP doesn’t even have enough class to admit his mistake. Shouldn’t you extend an apology tuck your tail and disappear and go polish your wings instead of pouring more avgas on the fire. If you really cared about this gentleman’s flight you should have PM’d him and kept this private then you wouldn’t be cleaning your foot in your mouth....is ****ing spelled with one T or two?

I'll just wait for the post titled "Jack-booted CBP agents seize Canadian glider for outlanding in US!" In the mean time, GET A LIFE!

[Steve Bralla]

From some of the discussion here could I have just continued into Mexican airspace yesterday? I had 2 chances.
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7445891
A few years ago we had a pilot followed back to Warner Springs By the feds (don't remember who) for flying into Mexico. His data logger showed He didn't.
If you fly at Jacumba (see Soaring July 2019) the south end of the ridge is in Mexico so every ridge flight is international. Been there, done that, maybe.
I know someone who has been into Mexico legally after talking with ATC and some who have been way into Mexico not so legal. Is going into Mexico different than crossing the border north or southbound? Different with our current POTUS?
Steve

[glidergeek]

Depends Steve...are you seeking asylum

[2G]

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 7:47:13 PM UTC-7, Steve Bralla wrote:
> From some of the discussion here could I have just continued into Mexican airspace yesterday? I had 2 chances.
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7445891
> A few years ago we had a pilot followed back to Warner Springs By the feds (don't remember who) for flying into Mexico. His data logger showed He didn't.
> If you fly at Jacumba (see Soaring July 2019) the south end of the ridge is in Mexico so every ridge flight is international. Been there, done that, maybe.
> I know someone who has been into Mexico legally after talking with ATC and some who have been way into Mexico not so legal. Is going into Mexico different than crossing the border north or southbound? Different with our current POTUS?
> Steve

I believe the same US aviation laws apply to Mexico as Canada (at least I haven't seen any that are country specific). If anything, the southern border is MUCH more monitored than the northern, as that is where the bulk of the smuggling is happening. There is virtually no soaring done in Mexico, however. Here are the requirements for legally flying across the border:
https://www.aopa.org/travel/international-travel/mexico
http://azpilots.org/images/events/WeekendGetaways/mexico/apa-guaymas-procedures-feb-2016.pdf

[[email protected]]

Southern border rules are totally different than Canadian border.

[George Haeh]

It'll be a while before Chester gets good enough to reach Mexican airspace.

Then he can tell us how to do it legally.

[[email protected]]

Tom makes at least one good point. Fortunately, he was not able to find evidence that these overflights are illegal. I figured if CBP and ATC have no objection, I should be good to go. It's nice to put the FAA on that list as well.

There is a difference between illegal and ill advised. CBP would not be amused, they can certainly lay down huge fines, and who knows - maybe they can seize the glider. I prepare so hopefully a landout never happens, and if it does happen, I can make a better case that this was a serious emergency.. I'd be in the claws of the CBP and the legal system, and that doesn't sound like much fun, but still better than being dead.

To borrow Tom's phrase, soaring is a sport of skating on thin ice. We aren't flying around in a 182 going for a $100 hamburger! When I see the wave stretching south to the Grand Tetons, I have to limit my soaring risks to minimize the legal risks. The only responsible way to carry the adventure further south is to land, clear customs, and fly on.

In conclusion, (cu's will be popping soon) we have largely unexplored wave-generating terrain from south of the Grand Tetons to just south of the arctic circle. That's 1300 miles! Banff is close, Calgary is close - hook the glider up behind the minivan and bring the whole family for vacation.

Chester

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 7:54:42 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 12:36:36 PM UTC-7, Glidergeek wrote:
> > You have to be ****ing me, you mean there are glider pilots ( at least one) that have nothing better to do than scour the OLC flights and nit pick them on RAS? And what makes it worse the OP doesn’t even have enough class to admit his mistake. Shouldn’t you extend an apology tuck your tail and disappear and go polish your wings instead of pouring more avgas on the fire. If you really cared about this gentleman’s flight you should have PM’d him and kept this private then you wouldn’t be cleaning your foot in your mouth....is ****ing spelled with one T or two?
>
> I'll just wait for the post titled "Jack-booted CBP agents seize Canadian glider for outlanding in US!" In the mean time, GET A LIFE!

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 9:07:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Tom makes at least one good point. Fortunately, he was not able to find evidence that these overflights are illegal. I figured if CBP and ATC have no objection, I should be good to go. It's nice to put the FAA on that list as well.
>
> There is a difference between illegal and ill advised. CBP would not be amused, they can certainly lay down huge fines, and who knows - maybe they can seize the glider. I prepare so hopefully a landout never happens, and if it does happen, I can make a better case that this was a serious emergency. I'd be in the claws of the CBP and the legal system, and that doesn't sound like much fun, but still better than being dead.

If you can't get back, land in Area 51.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 7/28/2019 9:07 AM:
> Tom makes at least one good point. Fortunately, he was not able to find evidence that these overflights are illegal. I figured if CBP and ATC have no objection, I should be good to go. It's nice to put the FAA on that list as well.
>
> There is a difference between illegal and ill advised. CBP would not be amused, they can certainly lay down huge fines, and who knows - maybe they can seize the glider. I prepare so hopefully a landout never happens, and if it does happen, I can make a better case that this was a serious emergency.. I'd be in the claws of the CBP and the legal system, and that doesn't sound like much fun, but still better than being dead.
>
> To borrow Tom's phrase, soaring is a sport of skating on thin ice. We aren't flying around in a 182 going for a $100 hamburger! When I see the wave stretching south to the Grand Tetons, I have to limit my soaring risks to minimize the legal risks. The only responsible way to carry the adventure further south is to land, clear customs, and fly on.
>
> In conclusion, (cu's will be popping soon) we have largely unexplored wave-generating terrain from south of the Grand Tetons to just south of the arctic circle. That's 1300 miles! Banff is close, Calgary is close - hook the glider up behind the minivan and bring the whole family for vacation.
>
> Chester

How much of the US portion of the flight put you out of reach of a port of entry?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Mike the Strike]

A few Arizona pilots have flown gliders into Mexican airspace - twenty years ago, it was no big deal. It’s not advised since border controls have tightened since 9/11. If discovered and identified, you may get a reprimand or worse. I’ve crossed the southern border at least twice - the last one in a contest. Fortunately, only the scorer noticed- I got zero!

Mike

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Hmmmm.....(joking here....just so we all know up front......).....CBP/ICE...vs. US military at Area 51.....yep.....Area 51 sounds worse.....neither sounds good.....even a US citizen landing at Area 51...

In general......I find some decent info here. Not an issue I have to deal with based on location.

For the rest of this discussion, no comment.....a "wee bit too much testosterone" for me want to deal with.....have fun....

[Dan Marotta]

I'm curious:Â* For a trans-border flight can you file a flight plan in
the air like we can in the US?Â* If so then there's no need to land and
clear customs (probably).Â* Is there such a thing in Canada as VFR Flight
Following whereby you're in contact with the FAA and handed off to the
next sector even without a flight plan?

On 7/28/2019 10:07 AM, wrote:
> The only responsible way to carry the adventure further south is to land, clear customs, and fly on.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Yes and yes.

[[email protected]]

> > To borrow Tom's phrase, soaring is a sport of skating on thin ice. We aren't flying around in a 182 going for a $100 hamburger! When I see the wave stretching south to the Grand Tetons, I have to limit my soaring risks to minimize the legal risks. The only responsible way to carry the adventure further south is to land, clear customs, and fly on.

>
> How much of the US portion of the flight put you out of reach of a port of entry?
>
Under good weather conditions, a flight like mine is always within glide slope of the border, and if you get low way south, you have Helena and Great Falls. Can't penetrate west to Helena? Run east to Great Falls. Landing at a port of entry is still some sort of violation - this needs to be pre-arranged with customs. What would Customs do if they didn't want you in the country? At the border, they can just tell you to turn your car around. Still, landing at a Port of Entry is vastly preferred to landing at an unsupervised site. My discussions with CBP in Great Falls give me a sense that this might be forgiven.

[Waveguru]

Sometimes I feel like telling some of the posters on this group to go to Hellena hand basket....

;^)

Boggs

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 7/29/2019 7:32 AM:
>>> To borrow Tom's phrase, soaring is a sport of skating on thin ice. We aren't flying around in a 182 going for a $100 hamburger! When I see the wave stretching south to the Grand Tetons, I have to limit my soaring risks to minimize the legal risks. The only responsible way to carry the adventure further south is to land, clear customs, and fly on.
>
>>
>> How much of the US portion of the flight put you out of reach of a port of entry?
>>
> Under good weather conditions, a flight like mine is always within glide slope of the border, and if you get low way south, you have Helena and Great Falls. Can't penetrate west to Helena? Run east to Great Falls. Landing at a port of entry is still some sort of violation - this needs to be pre-arranged with customs. What would Customs do if they didn't want you in the country? At the border, they can just tell you to turn your car around. Still, landing at a Port of Entry is vastly preferred to landing at an unsupervised site. My discussions with CBP in Great Falls give me a sense that this might be forgiven.
>
Perhaps filing a flight plan with a landing at a port of entry would be give them
the opportunity to deny entry before the flight. I assume you could cancel the
landing during the flight as soon as you were confident you'd get back to Canada,
and request a change by radio to a different port of entry if landing became
inevitable. Making minor(?) changes to a flight plan might be more acceptable to
CBP than landing without prior permission.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[[email protected]]

> Perhaps filing a flight plan with a landing at a port of entry would be give them
> the opportunity to deny entry before the flight. I assume you could cancel the
> landing during the flight as soon as you were confident you'd get back to Canada,
> and request a change by radio to a different port of entry if landing became
> inevitable. Making minor(?) changes to a flight plan might be more acceptable to
> CBP than landing without prior permission.
>
> --

Many power pilots suggest exactly this. And it is legal, but you are going to seriously annoy Customs. They get a daily report with the incoming aviators, and they try to plan their day around it. This is not just my opinion, this feedback comes from the senior customs official in Great Falls. He would prefer to treat an emergency as an emergency, rather than see each overflight creating an operations exception. Hopefully he's not hoping to get a sweet deal on an Arcus at auction. :-)

My plan is to actually land and clear customs at least once. Now I'm in the system, I'm a familiar face. Hopefully if the worst comes to pass, they don't throw the book at me, just a minor paddling.

A lot of maybe's and wishful thinking going on here. If you have to land, it's a roll of the dice...

As an aside, there are airports right at the border. Del Bonita / Whetstone in particular would be perfect for clearing Customs on wave flights, but unfortunately it has been designed to kill glider pilots. Check out this picture -
http://www.aviationacres.com/FacilityPhotos/H28.jpg

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 7/29/2019 11:01 AM:
> As an aside, there are airports right at the border. Del Bonita / Whetstone in particular would be perfect for clearing Customs on wave flights, but unfortunately it has been designed to kill glider pilots. Check out this picture -
> http://www.aviationacres.com/FacilityPhotos/H28.jpg

You need a smaller glider! Or, maybe a Stemme, with gear that's better suited to
that airstrip.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[[email protected]]

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 1:26:19 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> Sometimes I feel like telling some of the posters on this group to go to Hellena hand basket....
>
> ;^)
>
> Boggs

Well now, that is north of Canada and putting double hockey sticks in the name says to me you're a Canadian troll and I must therefore know you. You live on my block, right?

Helena Montana is 170 miles south of the border, but it is also at 46.5891° N, 112.0391° W

And that puts it north of Canada. Which starts at 41.7745° N, 82.6591° W

So, if I may round it out a bit, 5 complete degrees NORTH of Canada.

Maybe you meant Mount St. Helens (one ell) ?? Nope, its at 46.1914° N, 122.1956° W

Maybe good old "Original name, original heat!" Hell, MI? Nope 42.4347° N, 83.9850° W, so Canada is truly south of Hell, should anyone be told to go there.

So, when I get a minute, I will do a line by line parse of my big post that some distrusted because this is the internet and we trust nothing here.

And as always,

Sorry eh?

[2G]

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 9:07:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Tom makes at least one good point. Fortunately, he was not able to find evidence that these overflights are illegal. I figured if CBP and ATC have no objection, I should be good to go. It's nice to put the FAA on that list as well.
>
> There is a difference between illegal and ill advised. CBP would not be amused, they can certainly lay down huge fines, and who knows - maybe they can seize the glider. I prepare so hopefully a landout never happens, and if it does happen, I can make a better case that this was a serious emergency. I'd be in the claws of the CBP and the legal system, and that doesn't sound like much fun, but still better than being dead.
>
> To borrow Tom's phrase, soaring is a sport of skating on thin ice. We aren't flying around in a 182 going for a $100 hamburger! When I see the wave stretching south to the Grand Tetons, I have to limit my soaring risks to minimize the legal risks. The only responsible way to carry the adventure further south is to land, clear customs, and fly on.
>
> In conclusion, (cu's will be popping soon) we have largely unexplored wave-generating terrain from south of the Grand Tetons to just south of the arctic circle. That's 1300 miles! Banff is close, Calgary is close - hook the glider up behind the minivan and bring the whole family for vacation.
>
> Chester
>
> On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 7:54:42 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 12:36:36 PM UTC-7, Glidergeek wrote:
> > > You have to be ****ing me, you mean there are glider pilots ( at least one) that have nothing better to do than scour the OLC flights and nit pick them on RAS? And what makes it worse the OP doesn’t even have enough class to admit his mistake. Shouldn’t you extend an apology tuck your tail and disappear and go polish your wings instead of pouring more avgas on the fire. If you really cared about this gentleman’s flight you should have PM’d him and kept this private then you wouldn’t be cleaning your foot in your mouth....is ****ing spelled with one T or two?
> >
> > I'll just wait for the post titled "Jack-booted CBP agents seize Canadian glider for outlanding in US!" In the mean time, GET A LIFE!

I call that "mission accomplished:" you know the risks involved and are willing (I guess) to accept them. I was also thinking about other pilots that might try emulating what you did and are not aware of these risks. And if you still don't think this can happen, google "civil forfeiture."

For the record, I apologize for calling your flight "illegal," which it wasn't.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Anyone who "emulates" the actions of others without assessing the risks
on his own deserves what he gets.

On 7/29/2019 8:23 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 9:07:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Tom makes at least one good point. Fortunately, he was not able to find evidence that these overflights are illegal. I figured if CBP and ATC have no objection, I should be good to go. It's nice to put the FAA on that list as well.
>>
>> There is a difference between illegal and ill advised. CBP would not be amused, they can certainly lay down huge fines, and who knows - maybe they can seize the glider. I prepare so hopefully a landout never happens, and if it does happen, I can make a better case that this was a serious emergency. I'd be in the claws of the CBP and the legal system, and that doesn't sound like much fun, but still better than being dead.
>>
>> To borrow Tom's phrase, soaring is a sport of skating on thin ice. We aren't flying around in a 182 going for a $100 hamburger! When I see the wave stretching south to the Grand Tetons, I have to limit my soaring risks to minimize the legal risks. The only responsible way to carry the adventure further south is to land, clear customs, and fly on.
>>
>> In conclusion, (cu's will be popping soon) we have largely unexplored wave-generating terrain from south of the Grand Tetons to just south of the arctic circle. That's 1300 miles! Banff is close, Calgary is close - hook the glider up behind the minivan and bring the whole family for vacation.
>>
>> Chester
>>
>> On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 7:54:42 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 12:36:36 PM UTC-7, Glidergeek wrote:
>>>> You have to be ****ing me, you mean there are glider pilots ( at least one) that have nothing better to do than scour the OLC flights and nit pick them on RAS? And what makes it worse the OP doesn’t even have enough class to admit his mistake. Shouldn’t you extend an apology tuck your tail and disappear and go polish your wings instead of pouring more avgas on the fire. If you really cared about this gentleman’s flight you should have PM’d him and kept this private then you wouldn’t be cleaning your foot in your mouth....is ****ing spelled with one T or two?
>>> I'll just wait for the post titled "Jack-booted CBP agents seize Canadian glider for outlanding in US!" In the mean time, GET A LIFE!
> I call that "mission accomplished:" you know the risks involved and are willing (I guess) to accept them. I was also thinking about other pilots that might try emulating what you did and are not aware of these risks. And if you still don't think this can happen, google "civil forfeiture."
>
> For the record, I apologize for calling your flight "illegal," which it wasn't.
>
> Tom
>

--
Dan, 5J