Mistral-C vs DG-100

[calin fagarasanu]

Hi all!
I know this kind of subject is boring and the gliders are old news but I am unable to decide which one to buy hence I am asking for help. There are so many other types but because I don't want to loose myself in too many details, I'd appreciate if you could help me compare this two only.

On one hand Mistral-C is:

+stable
+has a safe elevator
+has good visibility
+has both launching hooks
+some aerobatic ability
+easy rigging
but
-the landing gear is very close to the belly and I'm afraid it will be damaged in case of out-landing
-demand is not too high in case decide to sell

Unknowns:
Gel-coat resistance
Spare parts availability
Autonomy - how far can it fly

On the other hand DG-100 is:
+well known with still some demand (not sure)
+maintenance is there
+good gel-coat
+landing gear clearance is high
+better index +4
but
-visibility is poor for the 2 piece canopy (this is what I've found and for my budget)
-has all moving tail which I never flew and understand it is a safety concern
-belly hook only

Please add to this list.
Thank you,
Calin

[Mike C]

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 1:39:43 PM UTC-6, calin fagarasanu wrote:
> Hi all!
> I know this kind of subject is boring and the gliders are old news but I am unable to decide which one to buy hence I am asking for help. There are so many other types but because I don't want to loose myself in too many details, I'd appreciate if you could help me compare this two only.
>
> On one hand Mistral-C is:
>
> +stable
> +has a safe elevator
> +has good visibility
> +has both launching hooks
> +some aerobatic ability
> +easy rigging
> but
> -the landing gear is very close to the belly and I'm afraid it will be damaged in case of out-landing
> -demand is not too high in case decide to sell
>
> Unknowns:
> Gel-coat resistance
> Spare parts availability
> Autonomy - how far can it fly
>
> On the other hand DG-100 is:
> +well known with still some demand (not sure)
> +maintenance is there
> +good gel-coat
> +landing gear clearance is high
> +better index +4
> but
> -visibility is poor for the 2 piece canopy (this is what I've found and for my budget)
> -has all moving tail which I never flew and understand it is a safety concern
> -belly hook only
>
> Please add to this list.
> Thank you,
> Calin

My DG100 did not have a full flying stab, but I owned a sailplane that did (Phoebus C) and it was not a problem. I never thought my two piece canopy gave me poor visibility, and the CG hook was not a problem. I do not know anything about a Mistral C, but the DG is a good sailplane and very comfortable. I would arrange for a test flight before finalizing the deal though.

Good luck Calin.

Mike

[Matt McBee]

I have a DG-101 with conventional tail and one piece canopy. I can say that aerotow with the CG hook has been a total non-issue for me so far. Takeoffs are easy, just remember to follow the flight manual’s guidance. I mine, the trim should be set full forward for takeoff. I don’t know if this is true for the -100.

I have found the -101 to be a docile and responsive glider with very gentle and forgiving stall characteristics.

The airbrakes are only moderately effective, however.

Matt

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 7:28:31 PM UTC+1, Matt McBee wrote:
> I have a DG-101 with conventional tail and one piece canopy. I can say that aerotow with the CG hook has been a total non-issue for me so far. Takeoffs are easy, just remember to follow the flight manual’s guidance. I mine, the trim should be set full forward for takeoff. I don’t know if this is true for the -100.
>
> I have found the -101 to be a docile and responsive glider with very gentle and forgiving stall characteristics.
>
> The airbrakes are only moderately effective, however.
>
> Matt

The most important thing about buying a glider is to buy one that you know from reputation will sell well when you decide to upgrade - which you will at some stage as long as you stay in the sport. The glider market is pretty knowledeable so a glider that keeps it value does so for good reasons and when a glider type doesnt have that good reputation then there are also good reasons for it. Clues often are things like it not having sold many examples from new or coming from a factory that is no longer in business. Speaking as one whose first GRP glider was a Diamant 18 - but it was OK in the end because one of my syndicate partners wrote it off (shame about his fractured leg 'though)

[[email protected]]

Well, for the DG-100 you'll have to pay a subscription every year to get any service from the DG factory...

The Type Certificate for the Mistral C is now owned by Eichelsdorfer. You'll find the PDF Flight Manual (in German) here https://www.flugzeug-eichelsdoerfer.de/service.html

[[email protected]]

I owned Mistral-C now own DG300.

Buy DG-100. It will outperform Mistral visibly.
Try cockpit for visibility but bear in mind many people fly with such canopies (not only dg100) and it is a non issue for them.

Mistral has manual connectors (not sure if dg100 is automatic).

S

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op donderdag 15 augustus 2019 20:21:46 UTC+2 schreef :
> I owned Mistral-C now own DG300.
>
> Buy DG-100. It will outperform Mistral visibly.
> Try cockpit for visibility but bear in mind many people fly with such canopies (not only dg100) and it is a non issue for them.
>
> Mistral has manual connectors (not sure if dg100 is automatic).
>
> S

The DG-100 has l'hotellier connections, I fitted sleeves on mine this winter instead of those small pins for much easier rigging.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op zaterdag 27 juli 2019 20:28:31 UTC+2 schreef Matt McBee:
> I have a DG-101 with conventional tail and one piece canopy. I can say that aerotow with the CG hook has been a total non-issue for me so far. Takeoffs are easy, just remember to follow the flight manual’s guidance. I mine, the trim should be set full forward for takeoff. I don’t know if this is true for the -100.
>
> I have found the -101 to be a docile and responsive glider with very gentle and forgiving stall characteristics.
>
> The airbrakes are only moderately effective, however.
>
> Matt

This is true for my DG-101 as well. I don't weigh much so on takeoff roll it set the trim full forward until I reach about 20m above ground and 100+ km/h, I set my trim halfway, to get the extra pitch from the trim tab.

[Charlie Quebec]

Any belly hook DG needs full down trim for takeoff. Nose hook not so much.

[Surge]

On Friday, 26 July 2019 21:39:43 UTC+2, calin fagarasanu wrote:
> -has all moving tail which I never flew and understand it is a safety concern

An all flying elevator should really only be a safety concern if you're a ham-fisted pilot.
They're a great way to cure "stick shaker" pilots of their bad habit. :)

If you're mentally prepared to use small elevator movements for the first couple of flights and pick a nice day without gusty conditions you should be fine.
It took me about 30 minutes of the first flight to get used to the Nimbus 2 all flying elevator.

[BobW]

On 8/21/2019 9:57 AM, Surge wrote:
> On Friday, 26 July 2019 21:39:43 UTC+2, calin fagarasanu wrote:
>> -has all moving tail which I never flew and understand it is a safety
>> concern
>
> An all flying elevator should really only be a safety concern if you're a
> ham-fisted pilot. They're a great way to cure "stick shaker" pilots of
> their bad habit. :)
>
> If you're mentally prepared to use small elevator movements for the first
> couple of flights and pick a nice day without gusty conditions you should
> be fine. It took me about 30 minutes of the first flight to get used to the
> Nimbus 2 all flying elevator.

"What Surge said," regarding my all-flying-elevator transition-experience.

Went from ~125 total hours in 1-26s to C-70 (50 hrs) and HP-14 (195 hrs) to a
15-meter Zuni w. single-piece horizontal stab. "Got over it" on my first tow,
mostly within the first vertical 3 feet. Little different than every other
single-seater transition, for me. Put >2k hours on the ship.

IMHO, pilots in general tend to magnify (beer and campfires help) ship
differences well beyond reality. Think V-tailed Bonanzas, ASW-20 "Jesus
flaps," etc.

Nothing beats sensible preparation.

YMMV.
Bob W.

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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:39:20 -0700 (PDT), Charlie Quebec
> wrote:

>Any belly hook DG needs full down trim for takeoff. Nose hook not so much.


Neither DG-300, nor DG-600, nor DG-800 need full down trim for an
aerotow. All of them belly hook.

I haven't flown DG-100 nor DG-200.

Cheers
Andreas


p.s.
We converted both of my club's DG-300s to nose hooks (due to German
legislation), so we could compare both hook positions on the same
gliders.

Absolutely NO trim change if the nose hook was used instead of the CG
hook.

[Mike N.]

I recently started flying a DG200.

I had not previously flown on a C.G. hook and had also no flown gliders for over 10 years when I got back into the hobby this past spring.


I joined Utah Soaring Association that luckily enough had several Twin Astir's with C.G. hooks. I took about 13 hours training to both knock my flight skills rust off and learn C.G. hook tows.

After getting my skills up to a safe level on the nose hook, I started training on the C.G. hook on the Astir and did not have much difficulty in that transition.

The more noticeable change was when I started flying the DG200. Per the manual elevator is to be trimmed full forward for take off.
My first take off, I did pitch up somewhat steeply and corrected appropriately with down elevator. I had been warned about the possibility of the pitch up of course so it was not too dramatic. But it did get my attention.

After a few more tows I was of course much more stable in the takeoff, to the point I am comfortable with the aircraft now.

I find at my weight and balance at roughly only 37 percent. If I bring the trim back about 15 to 20 percent from full forward trim the take off is pretty standard.

[6PK]

I own a DG300
The POH clearly states full forward trim for take off with a CG hook, if not serious ballooning will occur. I can attest to this as I did a sloppy before take off check once which I will never do again...

[Matt McBee]

DG-101 driver here. Our glider has a CG hook and yes, absolutely trim should be set full forward for aerotow.

[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 15:04:22 -0700 (PDT), 6PK >
wrote:

>I own a DG300
>The POH clearly states full forward trim for take off with a CG hook, if not serious ballooning will occur. I can attest to this as I did a sloppy before take off check once which I will never do again...



Interesting stuff - both our DG-300s require only 50% forward trim for
both aerotow and winch launch, quite independent of pilot weight.

In the beginning we were using full forward trim, but pilots with
little experience in the 300 had some minor problems concerning the
sensitive elevator. Setting the trim a little bit further backwards
(to the setting stated for the nose hook) corrected the problem.


You are correct concerning the POH, but at least our 300's show no
difference between nose and CG hook.

Neutral trim is a different animal and results in a quite severe
nose-up tendency which needs a little attention to correct.



Cheers
Andreas

[krasw]

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 11:50:24 PM UTC+3, Mike N. wrote:
>
> After getting my skills up to a safe level on the nose hook, I started training on the C.G. hook on the Astir and did not have much difficulty in that transition.
>


Training for nose hook and then transitionin to C.G. hook? You make it sound like stepping up from Cessna 150 to B-29. Most of us wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever no matter where you put the hook. This has to be most overblown issue on r.a.s, ever.

[6PK]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 4:14:14 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 11:50:24 PM UTC+3, Mike N. wrote:
> >
> > After getting my skills up to a safe level on the nose hook, I started training on the C.G. hook on the Astir and did not have much difficulty in that transition.
> >
>
>
> Training for nose hook and then transitionin to C.G. hook? You make it sound like stepping up from Cessna 150 to B-29. Most of us wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever no matter where you put the hook. This has to be most overblown issue on r.a.s, ever.

I beg to differ..with my DG300 the CG hook presents no problem. One of the clubs I did belong to years ago had a Janus A - hang on to your hat!
It all depends on the glider....

[6PK]

And one other thing;for the most part taking off with a CG hook poses no problem unless if one gets out of wheck say 10/15 degrees off center line as in a crosswind -things could quickly escalate leading to a ground loop, much more so than gliders equipped with a nose hook.
Just my 5 C worth on that....

[Mike N.]

"Training for nose hook and then transitionin to C.G. hook? You make it sound like stepping up from Cessna 150 to B-29. Most of us wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever no matter where you put the hook. This has to be most overblown issue on r.a.s, ever."
Who cares what you think, troll? There is a difference in nose to C.G. hook tows.
As most anyone (but you apparently) knows, pitch and yaw sensitivity on initial roll out and tow are higher.
Plenty of documented incidents of C.G. hook tows with very high pitch ups on take off leading to pulling the tow plan tail up and potentially planing the prop.
Go back under your bridge and S.T.F.Up if your arrogant A$$ does not like a post. Others may find it useful.

[Mike N.]

> Training for nose hook and then transitionin to C.G. hook? You make it sound like stepping up from Cessna 150 to B-29. Most of us wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever no matter where you put the hook. This has to be most overblown issue on r.a.s, ever.

Troll; There is a difference in nose to C.G. hook tows.
Pitch and yaw sensitivity on initial roll out and tow are higher.
Plenty of documented incidents of C.G. hook tows with very high pitch ups on take off leading to pulling the tow plan tail up and potentially planting the prop.
P.S. if your arrogant A$$ does not like a post shut up. Others may find it useful.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 11:02:22 AM UTC-4, 6PK wrote:
> And one other thing;for the most part taking off with a CG hook poses no problem unless if one gets out of wheck say 10/15 degrees off center line as in a crosswind -things could quickly escalate leading to a ground loop, much more so than gliders equipped with a nose hook.
> Just my 5 C worth on that....

The Pegase manual doesn't say where to set the trim for a CG launch but it does say if 20 degrees or more off towing axis release immediately. My Peg has only the CG and I'm still thinking about adding a forward release. That said, its never been a problem. You just have to pay attention. You go where you're pointing.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op dinsdag 27 augustus 2019 19:22:16 UTC+2 schreef Mike N.:
> > Training for nose hook and then transitionin to C.G. hook? You make it sound like stepping up from Cessna 150 to B-29. Most of us wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever no matter where you put the hook. This has to be most overblown issue on r.a.s, ever.
>
> Troll; There is a difference in nose to C.G. hook tows.
> Pitch and yaw sensitivity on initial roll out and tow are higher.
> Plenty of documented incidents of C.G. hook tows with very high pitch ups on take off leading to pulling the tow plan tail up and potentially planting the prop.
> P.S. if your arrogant A$$ does not like a post shut up. Others may find it useful.

Maybe a bit off topic here, but what would be an average cost to adding a nose hook to a glider? Part + installation.

[Tango Whisky]

If you can't control a take off with a cg hook, you probably shouldn't be in a glider in the first place.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 2:43:57 PM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
> If you can't control a take off with a cg hook, you probably shouldn't be in a glider in the first place.

That's a pretty arrogant and insulting comment. Maybe not everybody has your incredible genetically engineered skills and your interplanetary sourced perfect glider, and doesn't get to fly in your exalted unicorn-populated airfield conditions.

And perhaps, some of us learned with nose hooks and are just now transitioning to CG hooks. Be grateful that your parents conceived you while performing CG related activity, although ineptly.

I have flown with nose, chin and CG hooks. In a crosswind with a partial load of water and a lazy wingrunner, the release option is at the forefront of my mind for the entire takeoff roll, especially with the CG hook.

I am glad that your amazing abilities are so amazing. I hope I never have to meet you, as I would probably have to shoot myself. But I wouldn't be the first casualty.

[6PK]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 5:55:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 2:43:57 PM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > If you can't control a take off with a cg hook, you probably shouldn't be in a glider in the first place.
>
> That's a pretty arrogant and insulting comment. Maybe not everybody has your incredible genetically engineered skills and your interplanetary sourced perfect glider, and doesn't get to fly in your exalted unicorn-populated airfield conditions.
>
> And perhaps, some of us learned with nose hooks and are just now transitioning to CG hooks. Be grateful that your parents conceived you while performing CG related activity, although ineptly.
>
> I have flown with nose, chin and CG hooks. In a crosswind with a partial load of water and a lazy wingrunner, the release option is at the forefront of my mind for the entire takeoff roll, especially with the CG hook.
>
> I am glad that your amazing abilities are so amazing. I hope I never have to meet you, as I would probably have to shoot myself. But I wouldn't be the first casualty.

:-),

[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 17:55:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 2:43:57 PM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
>> If you can't control a take off with a cg hook, you probably shouldn't be in a glider in the first place.
>
>That's a pretty arrogant and insulting comment. Maybe not everybody has your incredible genetically engineered skills and your interplanetary sourced perfect glider, and doesn't get to fly in your exalted unicorn-populated airfield conditions.
>
>And perhaps, some of us learned with nose hooks and are just now transitioning to CG hooks. Be grateful that your parents conceived you while performing CG related activity, although ineptly.
>
>I have flown with nose, chin and CG hooks. In a crosswind with a partial load of water and a lazy wingrunner, the release option is at the forefront of my mind for the entire takeoff roll, especially with the CG hook.
>
>I am glad that your amazing abilities are so amazing. I hope I never have to meet you, as I would probably have to shoot myself. But I wouldn't be the first casualty.

May I quote your posting to my student pilots?

For generations they have flown their aerotows with only a CG hook...
without any incidence. I am sure they are happy to hear that
apparently they belong to the species "super human".

[Simon France[_2_]]

At 02:11 28 August 2019, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 17:55:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 2:43:57 PM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
>>> If you can't control a take off with a cg hook, you probably shouldn't
>be in a glider in the first place.
>>
>>That's a pretty arrogant and insulting comment. Maybe not everybody has
>your incredible genetically engineered skills and your interplanetary
>sourced perfect glider, and doesn't get to fly in your exalted
>unicorn-populated airfield conditions.
>>
>>And perhaps, some of us learned with nose hooks and are just now
>transitioning to CG hooks. Be grateful that your parents conceived you
>while performing CG related activity, although ineptly.
>>
>>I have flown with nose, chin and CG hooks. In a crosswind with a partial
>load of water and a lazy wingrunner, the release option is at the
forefront
>of my mind for the entire takeoff roll, especially with the CG hook.
>>
>>I am glad that your amazing abilities are so amazing. I hope I never
have
>to meet you, as I would probably have to shoot myself. But I wouldn't be
>the first casualty.
>
>May I quote your posting to my student pilots?
>
>For generations they have flown their aerotows with only a CG hook...
>without any incidence. I am sure they are happy to hear that
>apparently they belong to the species "super human".
>
>
>My advice would be, only listen to DG100 0wners. Everyone else is making
comparisons based on having experience of all flying tail planes in other
types, and they all behave differently.

Split canopies are not a problem, after a flight or two, you wont even
notice it.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op woensdag 28 augustus 2019 09:45:05 UTC+2 schreef Simon France:
> At 02:11 28 August 2019, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> >On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 17:55:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> >
> >>On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 2:43:57 PM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
> >>> If you can't control a take off with a cg hook, you probably shouldn't
> >be in a glider in the first place.
> >>
> >>That's a pretty arrogant and insulting comment. Maybe not everybody has
> >your incredible genetically engineered skills and your interplanetary
> >sourced perfect glider, and doesn't get to fly in your exalted
> >unicorn-populated airfield conditions.
> >>
> >>And perhaps, some of us learned with nose hooks and are just now
> >transitioning to CG hooks. Be grateful that your parents conceived you
> >while performing CG related activity, although ineptly.
> >>
> >>I have flown with nose, chin and CG hooks. In a crosswind with a partial
> >load of water and a lazy wingrunner, the release option is at the
> forefront
> >of my mind for the entire takeoff roll, especially with the CG hook.
> >>
> >>I am glad that your amazing abilities are so amazing. I hope I never
> have
> >to meet you, as I would probably have to shoot myself. But I wouldn't be
> >the first casualty.
> >
> >May I quote your posting to my student pilots?
> >
> >For generations they have flown their aerotows with only a CG hook...
> >without any incidence. I am sure they are happy to hear that
> >apparently they belong to the species "super human".
> >
> >
> >My advice would be, only listen to DG100 0wners. Everyone else is making
> comparisons based on having experience of all flying tail planes in other
> types, and they all behave differently.
>
> Split canopies are not a problem, after a flight or two, you wont even
> notice it.

DG-101 owner (long canopy, all flying tailplane):
Using my CG hook, I only have issues on tow when the towplane exceeds 130 km/h, when flying through a thermal and he leaves and I'm still in, I have some trouble putting the nose down. Up to 120 km/h I have absolutely no problems.

I prefer a slower tow, at 110-120 km/h, as I don't weigh much, I'm flying at minimum cockpit weight.