unfair cartoon in October 2004 issue of KITPLANES

[Bob Kaplow]

From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
To:
CC: ,KAPLOW_R
Subj: October cartoon

As a model rocketeer with 40 years of experience in the hobby, I strongly
object to the cartoon I just saw on page 77 of your October issue of
Kitplanes. To infer that model rocketeers would endanger pilots or aircraft
is absurd.

Just as your hobby has grown over the past 4 decades, so has mine. When we
fly our large models that are capable of reaching altitudes of 5000' and
more, we notify the FAA of our operations and have the local FSS issue a
NOTAM. We fill out the same form used for an airshow. We always check for
aircraft in the flight area before launching ANY rocket. We are VERY safety
conscious in our operations, and have a safety record unmatched by any sport
or hobby.

Pilots are SUPPOSED to check the NOTAMs for their area before taking off. Of
course, we all know that they don't always do so. That's why we always look
for aircraft in the area before we fly. But we've encountered problems where
our NOTAMs actually attract aircraft. Someone comes flying around our
launch, and hangs around in our airspace, hoping to see something "cool". Of
course we then have to sit there and wait for the intruder to leave before
we can fly.

Frankly we've grown tired of our hobby being under attack by everyone
from the BATFE to SBC and now to Kitplanes. It is totally unjustified. Where
do you think the people who will build and fly the first manned Mars mission
will come from? They won't be Nintendo pilots, that's for sure.

[Hint: what was Bert Rutan doing when he was a kid? Building and flying
model airplanes!]

You can learn more about our hobby, our safety rules, and our organization
by visiting our web site at www.nar.org

Bob Kaplow
Northern Illinois Rocketry Association - Range Safety Officer
National Association of Rocketry - lifetime member #18L

cc: Mark Bundick NAR president
cc: rec.models.rockets

[Corky Scott]

On 25 Aug 2004 14:14:17 -0500, (Bob
Kaplow) wrote:

>From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
>To:
>CC: ,KAPLOW_R
>Subj: October cartoon
>
>As a model rocketeer with 40 years of experience in the hobby, I strongly
>object to the cartoon I just saw on page 77 of your October issue of
>Kitplanes. To infer that model rocketeers would endanger pilots or aircraft
>is absurd.
>
>Just as your hobby has grown over the past 4 decades, so has mine. When we
>fly our large models that are capable of reaching altitudes of 5000' and
>more, we notify the FAA of our operations and have the local FSS issue a
>NOTAM. We fill out the same form used for an airshow. We always check for
>aircraft in the flight area before launching ANY rocket. We are VERY safety
>conscious in our operations, and have a safety record unmatched by any sport
>or hobby.
>
>Pilots are SUPPOSED to check the NOTAMs for their area before taking off. Of
>course, we all know that they don't always do so. That's why we always look
>for aircraft in the area before we fly. But we've encountered problems where
>our NOTAMs actually attract aircraft. Someone comes flying around our
>launch, and hangs around in our airspace, hoping to see something "cool". Of
>course we then have to sit there and wait for the intruder to leave before
>we can fly.
>
>Frankly we've grown tired of our hobby being under attack by everyone
>from the BATFE to SBC and now to Kitplanes. It is totally unjustified. Where
>do you think the people who will build and fly the first manned Mars mission
>will come from? They won't be Nintendo pilots, that's for sure.
>
>[Hint: what was Bert Rutan doing when he was a kid? Building and flying
>model airplanes!]
>
>You can learn more about our hobby, our safety rules, and our organization
>by visiting our web site at www.nar.org
>
>Bob Kaplow
>Northern Illinois Rocketry Association - Range Safety Officer
>National Association of Rocketry - lifetime member #18L
>
>cc: Mark Bundick NAR president
>cc: rec.models.rockets

Sounds like you are definately a responsible rocket flyer Bob, but not
all rocket enthusiasts are.

A couple of months ago I was flying out of KLEB in Lebanon NH. I was
just logging landings to remain current so I could rent from the FBO,
so I was staying in the pattern. The active runway was 18, which for
Lebanon, means a right hand pattern. This takes you over a tiny
settlement south of the field comprising about five or six houses,
then brings you over the commercial strip bordering the Connecticut
River, then over a part of West Lebanon during base and final.

I was into my fourth circuit, and it was around 8:45 on a quiet
Saturday morning. I had just reported in to the tower midfield right
downwind for 18. The tower came back aknowledging my position,
clearing me for landing and then asking me if I could extend my next
leg.

I told the tower I could do so, then asked if noise was a problem.
The tower responded that it appeared to be. So I repeated that I had
no problem extending my subsequent patterns for noise abatement.

Then the tower came back saying that it wasn't really noise abatement,
that someone had called in saying that they were about to fire off a
rocket and wanted to notify the airport. They did not say where they
were calling from, but they could apparently see my airplane in the
pattern and obviously thought that firing the rocket while I was in
the air might make for a close call, or at least startle me.

I looked carefully at the ground under my pattern the next several
circuits, but could not see any activity under me. I figured that the
caller must have been calling from the houses to the south of the
airport as no other area was remote enough to allow the firing of a
rocket, but who knows.

In the event, I did not see a smoke trail and do not know if the guy
shot the thing off or not. But the mere fact that he was prepared to
fire it off within the pattern of an active airport was a bit
disconcerting.

I guess you could say: at least he called. That's true, but he should
not have even been considering firing it in such close proximaty to
the airport.

Corky Scott

[B2431]

(Bob Kaplow)
>Date: 8/25/2004 2:14 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
>To:
>CC: ,KAPLOW_R
>Subj: October cartoon
>
>As a model rocketeer with 40 years of experience in the hobby, I strongly
>object to the cartoon I just saw on page 77 of your October issue of
>Kitplanes. To infer that model rocketeers would endanger pilots or aircraft
>is absurd.

Imply, not infer. I do see your point, but I don't think it was intended as a
slam on rockets.

I wonder if there has ever been a collision between an aircraft and a model
rocket.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, Corky Scott > writes:
> I guess you could say: at least he called. That's true, but he should
> not have even been considering firing it in such close proximaty to
> the airport.

The regs are quite clear on where we can and can not fly. For the
traditional model rocket under 1 pound, we are totally exempt from FAA
regulation. Still we must fly in a manner that does not endanger aircraft.

For what is now known as a "large model rocket" (between 1 and 3.3#) we need
to NOTIFY the local airport manager of our activity. That may be what you
encountered.

Beyond 3.3# we fill out the same waiver form as used for an airshow, 45 days
in advance, etc. etc. and the FAA has the final say as to whether our
request is granted or not.

We've actually flown off assorted airports, both general aviation and
military. The first time I was involved in running one of these launches we
were just under 20 miles outside of ORD, one of the busiest hunks of
airspace in the country. They let us fly up to but not into the TCA, and
actually rerouted traffic into 9 right around us.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Matt Whiting]

Bob Kaplow wrote:

> From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
> To:
> CC: ,KAPLOW_R
> Subj: October cartoon

All this because of a CARTOON. Someone needs to get a grip on reality.
If all model rocketeers are this paranoid, I really am starting now to
worry about them being a hazard to aviation and problem close friends
and relatives!

Matt

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, (B2431) writes:
> I wonder if there has ever been a collision between an aircraft and a model
> rocket.

Never. One of our members was a Navy captain and had access to a DOD study.
Using Mach 5 sounding rockets and radar slaved launchers, they fired a
battery of rounds at target drones. They initially thought they'd be
successful about 1 in 10. Afterwards they revised that to less than 1 in
1000000. And that's with radar and many Mach 5 rockets. We have neither, and
we don't try.

Now we've got the BATFE on our case. We've sued them for illegally changing
regulations, and won. They still are trying to ban our motors. THe
propellant is almost the same as the shuttle SRBs. You couldn't make it
explode if you tried.

Sure you could use a model rocket, or for that matter a Ryder truck or 767
or USPS package to deliver a dangerous payload to some random location. But
it's not the BATFEs job to regulate delivery devices. If they have their way
it may impact general aviation as well. The same type of rocket motor is
used to deploy the parachutes used for spin recovery etc. Then there are the
air bags in cars...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Nathan Young]

All that over a cartoon? Taking things a bit too serious aren't you?

On 25 Aug 2004 14:14:17 -0500, (Bob
Kaplow) wrote:

>From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
>To:
>CC: ,KAPLOW_R
>Subj: October cartoon
>
>As a model rocketeer with 40 years of experience in the hobby, I strongly
>object to the cartoon I just saw on page 77 of your October issue of
>Kitplanes. To infer that model rocketeers would endanger pilots or aircraft
>is absurd.
>
>Just as your hobby has grown over the past 4 decades, so has mine. When we
>fly our large models that are capable of reaching altitudes of 5000' and
>more, we notify the FAA of our operations and have the local FSS issue a
>NOTAM. We fill out the same form used for an airshow. We always check for
>aircraft in the flight area before launching ANY rocket. We are VERY safety
>conscious in our operations, and have a safety record unmatched by any sport
>or hobby.
>
>Pilots are SUPPOSED to check the NOTAMs for their area before taking off. Of
>course, we all know that they don't always do so. That's why we always look
>for aircraft in the area before we fly. But we've encountered problems where
>our NOTAMs actually attract aircraft. Someone comes flying around our
>launch, and hangs around in our airspace, hoping to see something "cool". Of
>course we then have to sit there and wait for the intruder to leave before
>we can fly.
>
>Frankly we've grown tired of our hobby being under attack by everyone
>from the BATFE to SBC and now to Kitplanes. It is totally unjustified. Where
>do you think the people who will build and fly the first manned Mars mission
>will come from? They won't be Nintendo pilots, that's for sure.
>
>[Hint: what was Bert Rutan doing when he was a kid? Building and flying
>model airplanes!]
>
>You can learn more about our hobby, our safety rules, and our organization
>by visiting our web site at www.nar.org
>
>Bob Kaplow
>Northern Illinois Rocketry Association - Range Safety Officer
>National Association of Rocketry - lifetime member #18L
>
>cc: Mark Bundick NAR president
>cc: rec.models.rockets

[Nathan Young]

On 25 Aug 2004 16:45:33 -0500, (Bob
Kaplow) wrote:

>In article >, (B2431) writes:
>> I wonder if there has ever been a collision between an aircraft and a model
>> rocket.
>
>Never. One of our members was a Navy captain and had access to a DOD study.
>Using Mach 5 sounding rockets and radar slaved launchers, they fired a
>battery of rounds at target drones. They initially thought they'd be
>successful about 1 in 10. Afterwards they revised that to less than 1 in
>1000000. And that's with radar and many Mach 5 rockets. We have neither, and
>we don't try.

Sounds like the big sky theory... There are 10s of thousands of cubic
miles of atmosphere, but planes still collide (and they certainly
aren't trying either).

I would be willing to bet that somewhere, a model rocket has hit a GA
plane.

However, the risk is really minimal. Even if one hits a plane, it is
probably no worse than hitting a small bird.

Out of curiousity, how fast are the model rockets moving?

-Nathan

[C J Campbell]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
> All that over a cartoon? Taking things a bit too serious aren't you?
>

Unfortunately for the model rocket industry things have come to that. It has
become extremely difficult to even ship model rocket engines because of
security paranoia. Many stores have quit carrying them entirely.

Model rocketeers probably don't find cartoons like this any more funny than
you would find a New Yorker cartoon of a 'stealth' Velocity bombing a city
to be funny.

[Vince]

> All that over a cartoon? Taking things a bit too serious aren't you?

Well, yeah, it's just a cartoon, but...

How serious would folks on r.a.h. take it, if a cartoon was run somewhere
showing some terrorists using a homebuilt aircraft for some illicit purpose?

We'd all be "safest", at home and locked indoors by the police. There are
enough threats to our freedom from within, thanks to needless paranoia
and ensuing government overregulation, without having to stir up even more
unnecessary fears. I for one like living in a country where folks are still
free to do things (responsibly) that other people might consider "risky".
Things like flying homebuilt aircraft, and flying model rockets.

Unfortunately, there are people - within our borders - more than willing to
take away a little freedom here, a little liberty there, all so the trembling
ninnies can have a little more "safety". I feel more threatened by them, than
by any terrorist. Pretty soon, there won't be any more freedom and liberty
left to take away.

But we'll all be "safe".

p.s. try and attend an organized launch in your area some weekend - they're
about the most intelligent, amiable and fun-loving folks you'll ever meet, and
I guarantee you'll have a blast.

[Blueskies]

"Vince" > wrote in message news:AlaXc.2984$2F.1734@trnddc05...
> > All that over a cartoon? Taking things a bit too serious aren't you?
<snip>
> p.s. try and attend an organized launch in your area some weekend - they're
> about the most intelligent, amiable and fun-loving folks you'll ever meet, and
> I guarantee you'll have a blast.
>
>
>


No pun intended, I'm sure...

[Rich S.]

"Vince" > wrote in message
news:AlaXc.2984$2F.1734@trnddc05...
>
> Well, yeah, it's just a cartoon, but...

I ran across a bunch of Estes rockets at a garage sale and bought them all
for $7. I gave them to the pre-teens who live nest door, 'cuz they're really
into model rocketry.

Cartoons like the object of this posting are out of line and hurtful to a
whole generation of budding aerospace enthusiasts.

There should be a retraction and apology. These are our brothers.

Rich S.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Bob Kaplow" wrote in message >To infer that model rocketeers would
>endanger pilots or aircraft is absurd.

NASA's safety database has at least one report of chaperoned school kids in
Alabama firing a model rocket and narrowly missing a light twin at 300' AGL
on final approach to the neighboring airport.

In your group and in our group, image is important. Most of us are
responsible beings. However, there is always one idiot in every group. Isn't
that 'absurd'?

D.

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, Matt Whiting > writes:
> Bob Kaplow wrote:
>
>> From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
>> To:
>> CC: ,KAPLOW_R
>> Subj: October cartoon
>
> All this because of a CARTOON. Someone needs to get a grip on reality.
> If all model rocketeers are this paranoid, I really am starting now to
> worry about them being a hazard to aviation and problem close friends
> and relatives!

It's an image thing. This group must surely understand that.

I remember stoping by a store at a local GA airport back in October 2001.
The place was DEAD and shut down for several months after 9/11/

I was at a convention last week at McCormick Place and looked out at what
used to be Meigs Field, now just a bunch of dirt unsuitable for even an
emergency landing.

This is NOT the future I want to see for GA. Nor for Model Rockets. We're on
the same side of this battle. Many folks see both activities as kooks with
expensive toys. Anything that reinforces this belief needs to be stopped.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, Nathan Young > writes:
> I would be willing to bet that somewhere, a model rocket has hit a GA
> plane.

Nope. Not that has ever been reported to anyone.

And the overall safety record: 47 years, over 600 MILLION flights, ZERO
fatalities, and ONE serious injury.

> Out of curiousity, how fast are the model rockets moving?

Under thrust, fast enough that you wouldn't ever see it. Any where from a
few hundred miles an hour STRAIGHT UP to Mach 2.

When descending under a parachute, maybe 20 fps, again Z axis. THey drift
with the wind.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Bob Kaplow]

In article <AlaXc.2984$2F.1734@trnddc05>, "Vince" > writes:
>> All that over a cartoon? Taking things a bit too serious aren't you?
>
> Well, yeah, it's just a cartoon, but...
>
> How serious would folks on r.a.h. take it, if a cartoon was run somewhere
> showing some terrorists using a homebuilt aircraft for some illicit purpose?
>
> We'd all be "safest", at home and locked indoors by the police. There are
> enough threats to our freedom from within, thanks to needless paranoia
> and ensuing government overregulation, without having to stir up even more
> unnecessary fears. I for one like living in a country where folks are still
> free to do things (responsibly) that other people might consider "risky".
> Things like flying homebuilt aircraft, and flying model rockets.

I'm glad some folks understand.

> Unfortunately, there are people - within our borders - more than willing to
> take away a little freedom here, a little liberty there, all so the trembling
> ninnies can have a little more "safety". I feel more threatened by them, than
> by any terrorist. Pretty soon, there won't be any more freedom and liberty
> left to take away.
>
> But we'll all be "safe".

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin

Folks like Ashcroft and Reno before him are turning this country into
exactly what my father fought against in WWII. We don't yet have jack booted
government thugs on every street corner demanding "PAPEERZ PLEEZE" but we've
got them in our airports and "public" buildings. One by one the nanny state
is stealing our rights from us. By the tome some folks realize it, it will
be too late. Maybe it already is.

> p.s. try and attend an organized launch in your area some weekend - they're
> about the most intelligent, amiable and fun-loving folks you'll ever meet, and
> I guarantee you'll have a blast.

Check out http://nar.org/NARcalend.shtml to find one in your area.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, "Capt.Doug" > writes:
>>"Bob Kaplow" wrote in message >To infer that model rocketeers would
>>endanger pilots or aircraft is absurd.
>
> NASA's safety database has at least one report of chaperoned school kids in
> Alabama firing a model rocket and narrowly missing a light twin at 300' AGL
> on final approach to the neighboring airport.

Yes, and I got a similar report here in the Chicago area from my contact at
the ORD TRACON.

********** NEVER TRUST ANYTHING EXCEPT A FIRST HAND REPORT! **********

The report from the FAA was that someone was shooting rockets at an
airliner. As usual it wasn't forst hand, but one airline pilot heard the
story form another who heard it from another...

What really happened: We had a launch scheduled on a nice sunny day. We had
contacted the FSS and they issued a NOTAM 48 hours in advance. A couple AA
pilots saw the HOTAM, and brought their lawn chairs and a cooler out to the
launch. The watched us for several hours and had a nice afternoon.

Monday they go to work, and mention to some colleagues that they saw a
rocket launch over the weekend. Then those folks tell their friends that
"Joe saw some rockets over the weekend". Before you know it the story is
that we're shooting the rockets past their cockpit window as they come in
for a landing.

I'm sure you've got similar stories where reports get all bent out of shape.
Even reports that end up in some official database.

BTW, while driving to work today I had a truck "narrowly miss" my car, by
only a couple feet. Of course that happens every day in traffic.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, "C J Campbell" > writes:
> "Nathan Young" > wrote in message
> ...
>> All that over a cartoon? Taking things a bit too serious aren't you?
>
> Unfortunately for the model rocket industry things have come to that. It has
> become extremely difficult to even ship model rocket engines because of
> security paranoia. Many stores have quit carrying them entirely.
>
> Model rocketeers probably don't find cartoons like this any more funny than
> you would find a New Yorker cartoon of a 'stealth' Velocity bombing a city
> to be funny.

I did get an email apology this morning from the editors. Since it was
addressed to me and not the newsgroup, I won't post it here. It's more than
we've got from the likes of SBC and other folks that have defamed our hobby.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Wallace Berry]

I don't fly them anymore, but I had a great time as a kid with my model
rockets. My favorite was my Estes Avenger 2 stage. I built one of the
original Estes Saturn V's that used 3 C engines. Went to a high power
rocketry meet a couple years ago. Lots of fun. Launch had to be
postponed at one point for a "lookie-lou" in a 172 who saw all the folks
in the middle of the turf farm and decided to come check it out. The
meet was NOTAM'ed by the way.

Once when doing glider acro, I had just leveled out at the bottom of a
loop at around 2500 agl (my acro floor). My passenger asked what that
thing was just off our right wing. It was a model rocket descending on
it's 'chute. My response was "Hey, they're shooting at us!"



In article >,
(Bob Kaplow) wrote:

> In article >, Corky Scott
> > writes:
> > I guess you could say: at least he called. That's true, but he should
> > not have even been considering firing it in such close proximaty to
> > the airport.
>
> The regs are quite clear on where we can and can not fly. For the
> traditional model rocket under 1 pound, we are totally exempt from FAA
> regulation. Still we must fly in a manner that does not endanger aircraft.
>
> For what is now known as a "large model rocket" (between 1 and 3.3#) we need
> to NOTIFY the local airport manager of our activity. That may be what you
> encountered.
>
> Beyond 3.3# we fill out the same waiver form as used for an airshow, 45 days
> in advance, etc. etc. and the FAA has the final say as to whether our
> request is granted or not.
>
> We've actually flown off assorted airports, both general aviation and
> military. The first time I was involved in running one of these launches we
> were just under 20 miles outside of ORD, one of the busiest hunks of
> airspace in the country. They let us fly up to but not into the TCA, and
> actually rerouted traffic into 9 right around us.
>
> Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
> >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
> Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
> www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
>
> Save Model Rocketry from the HSA!
> http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

--
Take out the airplane for reply

[B2431]

>From: Wallace Berry
>Date: 8/26/2004 1:38 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I don't fly them anymore, but I had a great time as a kid with my model
>rockets. My favorite was my Estes Avenger 2 stage. I built one of the
>original Estes Saturn V's that used 3 C engines.

I had the Estes Saturn 1-C which cost 7 or 8 dollars less than the Saturn V. I
alway wanted the Saturn V but at $36 it was more than I could afford at the
time.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Blueskies]

"Bob Kaplow" > wrote in message ...
> In article >, "C J Campbell" > writes:
<snip>
>
> I did get an email apology this morning from the editors. Since it was
> addressed to me and not the newsgroup, I won't post it here. It's more than
> we've got from the likes of SBC and other folks that have defamed our hobby.
>
> Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
> >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
> Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
> www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
>
> Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html


SBC?
--
Dan D.
http://www.ameritech.net/users/ddevillers/start.html


..

[Matt Whiting]

Bob Kaplow wrote:

> In article >, Matt Whiting > writes:
>
>>Bob Kaplow wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
>>>To:
>>>CC: ,KAPLOW_R
>>>Subj: October cartoon
>>
>>All this because of a CARTOON. Someone needs to get a grip on reality.
>> If all model rocketeers are this paranoid, I really am starting now to
>>worry about them being a hazard to aviation and problem close friends
>>and relatives!
>
>
> It's an image thing. This group must surely understand that.
>
> I remember stoping by a store at a local GA airport back in October 2001.
> The place was DEAD and shut down for several months after 9/11/
>
> I was at a convention last week at McCormick Place and looked out at what
> used to be Meigs Field, now just a bunch of dirt unsuitable for even an
> emergency landing.
>
> This is NOT the future I want to see for GA. Nor for Model Rockets. We're on
> the same side of this battle. Many folks see both activities as kooks with
> expensive toys. Anything that reinforces this belief needs to be stopped.

I understand image, and I also understand humor. Robrucha's cartoon was
hardly a slam against model rocketeers. And I doubt a single pilot
viewing that cartoon took it that way. It isn't like this was in the
mass media where you have readers without a clue about either airplanes
or model rockets. I think your rant was way over the top and simply
makes you look foolish, over-reactive and out of touch. I don't think
that is the image you want to portray of a model rocket enthusiast, but
that is certainly the image your posting gave to me. Your rant was much
more damaging than the Kitplanes cartoon.


Matt

[Stalwart]

(Bob Kaplow) wrote in message >...
> From: EISNER::KAPLOW_R "Bob Kaplow" 25-AUG-2004 11:26:50.98
> To:
> CC: ,KAPLOW_R
> Subj: October cartoon
>
> As a model rocketeer with 40 years of experience in the hobby, I strongly
> object to the cartoon I just saw on page 77 of your October issue of
> Kitplanes. To infer that model rocketeers would endanger pilots or aircraft
> is absurd.
>
> Just as your hobby has grown over the past 4 decades, so has mine. When we
> fly our large models that are capable of reaching altitudes of 5000' and
> more, we notify the FAA of our operations and have the local FSS issue a
> NOTAM. We fill out the same form used for an airshow. We always check for
> aircraft in the flight area before launching ANY rocket. We are VERY safety
> conscious in our operations, and have a safety record unmatched by any sport
> or hobby.
>
> Pilots are SUPPOSED to check the NOTAMs for their area before taking off. Of
> course, we all know that they don't always do so. That's why we always look
> for aircraft in the area before we fly. But we've encountered problems where
> our NOTAMs actually attract aircraft. Someone comes flying around our
> launch, and hangs around in our airspace, hoping to see something "cool". Of
> course we then have to sit there and wait for the intruder to leave before
> we can fly.
>
> Frankly we've grown tired of our hobby being under attack by everyone
> from the BATFE to SBC and now to Kitplanes. It is totally unjustified. Where
> do you think the people who will build and fly the first manned Mars mission
> will come from? They won't be Nintendo pilots, that's for sure.
>
> [Hint: what was Bert Rutan doing when he was a kid? Building and flying
> model airplanes!]
>
> You can learn more about our hobby, our safety rules, and our organization
> by visiting our web site at www.nar.org
>
> Bob Kaplow
> Northern Illinois Rocketry Association - Range Safety Officer
> National Association of Rocketry - lifetime member #18L
>
> cc: Mark Bundick NAR president
> cc: rec.models.rockets

I got the impression that the cartoonist was just acknowledging that
rockets go above 5000ft. I'm not a rocketeer but I would like to know
if that's some kind of rocket extreme. I just thought he was
acknowledging some new height achieved by rocketering

[John]

Matt Whiting wrote:

>
> I understand image, and I also understand humor. Robrucha's cartoon was
> hardly a slam against model rocketeers. And I doubt a single pilot
> viewing that cartoon took it that way. It isn't like this was in the
> mass media where you have readers without a clue about either airplanes
> or model rockets. I think your rant was way over the top and simply
> makes you look foolish, over-reactive and out of touch. I don't think
> that is the image you want to portray of a model rocket enthusiast, but
> that is certainly the image your posting gave to me. Your rant was much
> more damaging than the Kitplanes cartoon.
>
>
> Matt


Amen!
I personally turn to his cartoons first thing on receiving my mag!
The world needs a little more humour.
John

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, (B2431) writes:
> I had the Estes Saturn 1-C which cost 7 or 8 dollars less than the Saturn V. I
> alway wanted the Saturn V but at $36 it was more than I could afford at the
> time.

That would be Saturn-IB, not C. And the S-IB was MORE expensive than the
S-V, since it was a larger scale. The 1:100 S-V was 9.95 when it first came
out, the 1:70 S-IB 12.95. The 1/242 semi-scale S-V was $2.50 but a common
"free kit" with your mail order.

The 1:100 S-V has been re-released a couple times over the past decade. Last
list was around $80 +/- some change. If you want bigger, better, and of
course more expensive, Apogee (apogeerockets.com) has 1:70 S-IB and S-V. And
for less bux Saturn Press (http://members.aol.com/Satrnpress/saturn.htm) has
a 2" Saturn-V that just came out for $50 featuring nice parts laser cut by
"robots with ray guns" for $50, and Dr. Zooch rockets (klydemorris.com)
offer 4 different Saturn kits for $19.95 each.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, "Blueskies" > writes:
>
> "Bob Kaplow" > wrote in message ...
>> In article >, "C J Campbell" > writes:
> <snip>
>>
>> I did get an email apology this morning from the editors. Since it was
>> addressed to me and not the newsgroup, I won't post it here. It's more than
>> we've got from the likes of SBC and other folks that have defamed our hobby.
>
> SBC?

Yup SBC, as in the local phone monopoly. They recently ran a commercial for
DSL showing folks searching the net for rocket info, building a rocket,
flying the rocket, and had the rocket crash into their car, blowing up the
car. Dad then says "should have taken Mom's car". Obviously phony, yet it
leaves the impression in millions of minds that one of our models can cause
that to happen. I asked them what they would think if I ran a commercial for
my product that showed an SBC cell phone blowing off someone's head. They
just didn't get it.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Blueskies]

"Bob Kaplow" > wrote in message ...
> In article >, "Blueskies" > writes:
> >
> > "Bob Kaplow" > wrote in message ...
> >> In article >, "C J Campbell" > writes:
> > <snip>
> >>
> >> I did get an email apology this morning from the editors. Since it was
> >> addressed to me and not the newsgroup, I won't post it here. It's more than
> >> we've got from the likes of SBC and other folks that have defamed our hobby.
> >
> > SBC?
>
> Yup SBC, as in the local phone monopoly. They recently ran a commercial for
> DSL showing folks searching the net for rocket info, building a rocket,
> flying the rocket, and had the rocket crash into their car, blowing up the
> car. Dad then says "should have taken Mom's car". Obviously phony, yet it
> leaves the impression in millions of minds that one of our models can cause
> that to happen. I asked them what they would think if I ran a commercial for
> my product that showed an SBC cell phone blowing off someone's head. They
> just didn't get it.
>
> Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
> >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
> Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
> www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
>
> Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

Oh yea, I saw that, and I thought the same thing when I saw it the first time. After who knows how many more times that
I saw it I became numb to it anyway. You've got a point though...

[B2431]

(Bob Kaplow)
>Date: 8/27/2004 1:13 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>(B2431) writes:
>> I had the Estes Saturn 1-C which cost 7 or 8 dollars less than the Saturn
>V. I
>> alway wanted the Saturn V but at $36 it was more than I could afford at the
>> time.
>
>That would be Saturn-IB, not C. And the S-IB was MORE expensive than the
>S-V, since it was a larger scale. The 1:100 S-V was 9.95 when it first came
>out, the 1:70 S-IB 12.95. The 1/242 semi-scale S-V was $2.50 but a common
>"free kit" with your mail order.

We are discussing different kits, I think, since I recall the Saturn V at
$36ish in 1969 or 1970 and theSaturn 1B was cheaper. The Saturn V was on the
order of 3 feet tall and the Saturn 1-B I built was about 2 feet.

I remember last fall I found a site where one could spend almost $800 for a 7
foot (?) Saturn 1-B.

I stand corrected on the designation, thank you.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Del Rawlins]

On 27 Aug 2004 13:16:48 -0500, (Bob
Kaplow) wrote:

>Yup SBC, as in the local phone monopoly. They recently ran a commercial for
>DSL showing folks searching the net for rocket info, building a rocket,
>flying the rocket, and had the rocket crash into their car, blowing up the
>car. Dad then says "should have taken Mom's car". Obviously phony, yet it
>leaves the impression in millions of minds that one of our models can cause
>that to happen. I asked them what they would think if I ran a commercial for
>my product that showed an SBC cell phone blowing off someone's head. They
>just didn't get it.

Well, we all know that model rocket engines can cause a chevy gas tank
to explode.


================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply

[Bob Kaplow]

In article >, (Del Rawlins) writes:
>>Yup SBC, as in the local phone monopoly. They recently ran a commercial for
>>DSL showing folks searching the net for rocket info, building a rocket,
>>flying the rocket, and had the rocket crash into their car, blowing up the
>>car. Dad then says "should have taken Mom's car". Obviously phony, yet it
>>leaves the impression in millions of minds that one of our models can cause
>>that to happen. I asked them what they would think if I ran a commercial for
>>my product that showed an SBC cell phone blowing off someone's head. They
>>just didn't get it.
>
> Well, we all know that model rocket engines can cause a chevy gas tank
> to explode.

Actually, they can't. NBC tried and failed.

However we have heard that the BATF, while trying to prove that our rockets
could hit an airplane, burned up their rented Ryder truck instead.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

[Capt.Doug]

>"Bob Kaplow" wrote in message > I'm sure you've got similar stories where
>reports get all bent out of shape.
> Even reports that end up in some official database.

I know about the incident in Alabama because I was there, at 300' AGL. There
weren't any NOTAMs. The ADULT chaperones weren't even aware that the green
field with the long strip of pavement surrounded by airplanes was an
airport.

Your organization provides excellent education to rocketeers, but it missed
these folks. Don't worry though- I educated them. However, being it was
Alabama, they didn't learn any new words from me.

As for the cartoon, well.....
I laughed at it. After reading your post, I realize I was ignorant. Please
forgive me. I have already contacted the Society Against the Tilted
Inexcusable Ridicule of Everyman and urged them to help others refrain from
spreading malicious rocketeer cartoons. Such cartoons only serve to give
license and comfort to those who pre-judge others on usenet posting
characteristics.

D.

[Matt Whiting]

Capt.Doug wrote:

>>"Bob Kaplow" wrote in message > I'm sure you've got similar stories where
>>reports get all bent out of shape.
>>Even reports that end up in some official database.
>
>
> I know about the incident in Alabama because I was there, at 300' AGL. There
> weren't any NOTAMs. The ADULT chaperones weren't even aware that the green
> field with the long strip of pavement surrounded by airplanes was an
> airport.
>
> Your organization provides excellent education to rocketeers, but it missed
> these folks. Don't worry though- I educated them. However, being it was
> Alabama, they didn't learn any new words from me.
>
> As for the cartoon, well.....
> I laughed at it. After reading your post, I realize I was ignorant. Please
> forgive me. I have already contacted the Society Against the Tilted
> Inexcusable Ridicule of Everyman and urged them to help others refrain from
> spreading malicious rocketeer cartoons. Such cartoons only serve to give
> license and comfort to those who pre-judge others on usenet posting
> characteristics.

You're BAD, Capt. Doug! What is your expansion of SARCASM? :-)

Matt