View Full Version : Pawnee Tow Release
Bob Youngblood
August 5th 19, 06:16 AM
I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird, and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the application.
If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider this modification.
sounds like a great idea. Can you post a picture?
Inactive as I am, I still speak out strongly against the floor mounted release. There is just no way to reach it when you have to in in a split second or maybe being thrown against the belts in a kiting situation. Also I encourage anyone and everyone to not use the Schweizer release— they won’t release under a side load. JMHO....
BobW
August 5th 19, 04:27 PM
On 8/4/2019 11:16 PM, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray plane
> to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird, and I am
> about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee that I have
> converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow release handle
> which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy to get to
> location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor,
> which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In this case the
> hopper release handle is just to the left side of the pilot and requires no
> bending down and allows the pilot to keep their eye on flying the plane. It
> requires just a bit of modification to make this conversion and in my case
> the inspector was impressed with the application. If any of you are
> considering converting a Pawnee you should consider this modification.
"What (the other) Bob said."
The engineer in me can't help but wonder why the original designers of spray
planes put *their* 'emergency release' handles within easy release of their
ships' Joe Pilot. Every (ubiquitous in the USA) Air Tractor I've seen
similarly has this design. What a concept!
Bob - not a power pilot - W.
---
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Bob Youngblood
August 5th 19, 10:36 PM
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 11:28:05 AM UTC-4, BobW wrote:
> On 8/4/2019 11:16 PM, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray plane
> > to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird, and I am
> > about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee that I have
> > converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow release handle
> > which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy to get to
> > location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor,
> > which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In this case the
> > hopper release handle is just to the left side of the pilot and requires no
> > bending down and allows the pilot to keep their eye on flying the plane. It
> > requires just a bit of modification to make this conversion and in my case
> > the inspector was impressed with the application. If any of you are
> > considering converting a Pawnee you should consider this modification.
>
> "What (the other) Bob said."
>
> The engineer in me can't help but wonder why the original designers of spray
> planes put *their* 'emergency release' handles within easy release of their
> ships' Joe Pilot. Every (ubiquitous in the USA) Air Tractor I've seen
> similarly has this design. What a concept!
>
> Bob - not a power pilot - W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
There is no doubt that this release is the safest for the Pawnee. No fumbling around for the release, and with a 3 foot extension makes the pull load much easier. I hope to post a pic soon. Bob Y
Charles Longley
August 6th 19, 12:44 AM
In the 3 Pawnee’s I fly 2 use the floor mounted dump lever which I like. The other one uses a shorter lever mounted in front of the throttle which I like even more!
Jim Kellett
August 6th 19, 02:06 PM
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. . . .
Years back, one of the Pawnees at the Warrenton Soaring Center crashed when the glider kited on takeoff, and the towpilot was physically unable to reach the floor mounted handle due to the g-forces in the cockpit. Survived, but broke his ankles.
Hal[_3_]
August 11th 19, 06:41 PM
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird, and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the application.
> If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider this modification.
Back in the 1970's, I towed with a Citabria that had the release cable connected directly to steel tubing directly over the front windscreen. It ran toward the rear and through a guide high in the back of the cabin. To release you just reached up, grabbed the wire and pulled straight down. That was my favorite release of all time. Since then I must have flown at least six other towplanes with all sorts of release mechanisms. The least favorite is the floor release which I think is unsafe for the reasons you mentioned. In addition, if the pilot does not look down it can be confused with the flap control on many airplanes.
Bob Youngblood
August 12th 19, 01:34 AM
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:41:35 PM UTC-4, Hal wrote:
> On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird, and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the application.
> > If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider this modification.
>
> Back in the 1970's, I towed with a Citabria that had the release cable connected directly to steel tubing directly over the front windscreen. It ran toward the rear and through a guide high in the back of the cabin. To release you just reached up, grabbed the wire and pulled straight down. That was my favorite release of all time. Since then I must have flown at least six other towplanes with all sorts of release mechanisms. The least favorite is the floor release which I think is unsafe for the reasons you mentioned. In addition, if the pilot does not look down it can be confused with the flap control on many airplanes.
Yes, I agree 100%, back at Thermal Research our towplane had the release mounted just toward the upper left of the cockpit, a great place to easily access during any situation. The floor release is the least favorable of all. As you mentioned it certainly is close to the flap handle on many planes. The hopper handle in my opinion is the best release handle for the Pawnee.
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 7:44:32 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> In the 3 Pawnee’s I fly 2 use the floor mounted dump lever which I like. The other one uses a shorter lever mounted in front of the throttle which I like even more!
Our Pawnee floor lever lies almost on the floor. There is a tab with a hole which looks like it should have a tension spring to keep the handle more upright. Anyone know if there is supposed to be a tension spring here? Where would the other end attach? Part number?
Thanks in advance,
Bob 7U
Bob Youngblood
August 13th 19, 01:20 AM
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 11:57:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 7:44:32 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > In the 3 Pawnee’s I fly 2 use the floor mounted dump lever which I like. The other one uses a shorter lever mounted in front of the throttle which I like even more!
>
> Our Pawnee floor lever lies almost on the floor. There is a tab with a hole which looks like it should have a tension spring to keep the handle more upright. Anyone know if there is supposed to be a tension spring here? Where would the other end attach? Part number?
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bob 7U
I do not recount seeing one with a spring. There should be enough tension on the release cable to keep the handle in the closed or locked position.
kirk.stant
August 13th 19, 05:24 PM
Install a Tost reel system and you can use a simpler “release” setup due to the use of a guillotine. Very little force needed to cut the tow rope so the release lever can be smaller and mounted right in front of the throttle. Both our Pawnees have been equipped for several years and I would not like to go back to the Elmira Death Hook!
Plus you get a built in Tost release for when you just have to drag a 200 ft rope behind you...
Kirk
66
Bob Youngblood
August 13th 19, 07:11 PM
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird, and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the application.
> If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider this modification.
Kirk, that is in fact a very nice system. Take yours off the Pawnee and send it to me. Times are tough and I am running low on cash, thinking about calling JJ Wentworth for a small advance. Bob
Walt Connelly
August 14th 19, 01:37 PM
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird, and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the application.
If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider this modification.
Kirk, that is in fact a very nice system. Take yours off the Pawnee and send it to me. Times are tough and I am running low on cash, thinking about calling JJ Wentworth for a small advance. Bob
Bob, the system on your Yellow Gorilla should be the standard throughout the towing world. Everyone agrees the handle down, parallel to the floor is difficult to access in an emergency and unsafe. The Schweizer tow hook standardly installed is equally unsafe. While there is no way to make towing completely safe for the tow pilot, at too low an altitude a kiting glider is a death sentence and there is no justifiable reason for any facility to continue with a release system proven to fail when it needs to work the most. Just my humble opinion.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now happily flying helicopters.
Bob Youngblood
August 14th 19, 08:11 PM
On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 8:43:07 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Bob Youngblood;997736 Wrote:
> > On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:-
> > I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray
> > plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird,
> > and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee
> > that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow
> > release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy
> > to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on
> > the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In
> > this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the
> > pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their
> > eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make
> > this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the
> > application.
> > If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider
> > this modification. -
> > Kirk, that is in fact a very nice system. Take yours off the Pawnee and
> > send it to me. Times are tough and I am running low on cash, thinking
> > about calling JJ Wentworth for a small advance. Bob
>
>
> Bob, the system on your Yellow Gorilla should be the standard throughout
> the towing world. Everyone agrees the handle down, parallel to the
> floor is difficult to access in an emergency and unsafe. The Schweizer
> tow hook standardly installed is equally unsafe. While there is no way
> to make towing completely safe for the tow pilot, at too low an altitude
> a kiting glider is a death sentence and there is no justifiable reason
> for any facility to continue with a release system proven to fail when
> it needs to work the most. Just my humble opinion.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now happily flying helicopters.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
Walt, thanks for the kind words. I first made that arrangement on Dusty, my first Pawnee, and then on to the Yellow Gorilla. After many tows and other tow pilots examining the system they all have been in agreement with your observation. I am now completing a new Pawnee which is named Towpecker, it too will have the same release mechanism that even has better performance. Bob
Duster[_2_]
September 15th 19, 11:36 PM
We are looking to purchase a Pawnee PA-25 that had a Continental engine installed (230hp?). It is approved for aerial towing (Schweizer hook) and we are trying to decide if it's worth the time/money to seek an FAA conversion to towing gliders with a TOST. Have read through several of the RAS discussions on this and talked with a couple clubs that completed STC's/FDSO field inspections. I get the feeling it's a real headache, some people concluded they wouldn't do it again. Anyone have a better experience or advice?
Thanks
D
Charles Longley
September 16th 19, 03:17 AM
Putting a Tost hook on a Pawnee is a very simple operation. The FAA doesn’t really need to be involved other then representation by an IA. Shoot me an email or call if you have any questions. www.skyeaero.com
Pawnee’s typically come with a 230 HP Lycoming engine. I’ve never seen a Continental on one.
Duster[_2_]
September 16th 19, 02:59 PM
On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 9:17:31 PM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> Putting a Tost hook on a Pawnee is a very simple operation. The FAA doesn’t really need to be involved other then representation by an IA. Shoot me an email or call if you have any questions. www.skyeaero.com
> Pawnee’s typically come with a 230 HP Lycoming engine. I’ve never seen a Continental on one.
The Continental was STC'd in this PA-25. I will PM you eventually, but for now let's assume we want to seek a TOST conversion. Will that necessitate an STC or FDSO field approval or can an IA do this? If it requires an STC is there an existing one, or are they unique to each Pawnee model? Should we want to modify the floor release to one of the suggested mods, would that require an STC?
Thanks in advance,
Mike
Walt Connelly
September 16th 19, 03:07 PM
;1000607']We are looking to purchase a Pawnee PA-25 that had a Continental engine installed (230hp?). It is approved for aerial towing (Schweizer hook) and we are trying to decide if it's worth the time/money to seek an FAA conversion to towing gliders with a TOST. Have read through several of the RAS discussions on this and talked with a couple clubs that completed STC's/FDSO field inspections. I get the feeling it's a real headache, some people concluded they wouldn't do it again. Anyone have a better experience or advice?
Thanks
D
"Trying to decide if it's worth the time/money?" Time and money should not enter into the equation when the life of your tow pilot may depend on the TOST release. If you don't care about the life of your tow pilot then by all means keep the Schweizer hook. While you're at it you might give consideration to placing the release handle where the pilot can quickly access it in the upright, seated position. JMHO
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Charles Longley
September 16th 19, 04:22 PM
Interesting that someone put an O-470 on a Pawnee. Do you know which model it is?
To answer your question the TOST tow release comes with an STC. W&W does a pretty good job supporting them.
Here’s the standard one-
https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/airplane-tow-supports/tow-release-for-pa25.html
If your club wants to spend a lot more money and go to a retractable one here’s the link-
https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/tow-cable-retractor-wing-with-guillotine-drg-for-pa25.html
Pros and cons for each. Depends on how your club operates.
I would put the release in front of the throttle where the pilot can easily see it. One of the Pawnee’s I fly is set up that way. The other two use the stock dump lever. Which is acceptable but not as convenient to reach.
Any IA can sign off the FAA form 337 to document the conversion. The approved data will come from the STC and AC 43.13.
Hope this helps.
Charlie
Duster[_2_]
September 16th 19, 04:48 PM
It's an "R" model and I can forward you the FAA form 337 paperwork they have on file for the engine if you want. Thanks for the useful tips; we'll follow up.
Mike
Charles Longley
September 16th 19, 04:53 PM
Not necessary I was just curious. Give me a call if you have any questions. Your local IA should be able to approve the install.
September 16th 19, 06:17 PM
On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 3:36:07 PM UTC-7, Duster wrote:
> We are looking to purchase a Pawnee PA-25 that had a Continental engine installed (230hp?). It is approved for aerial towing (Schweizer hook) and we are trying to decide if it's worth the time/money to seek an FAA conversion to towing gliders with a TOST. Have read through several of the RAS discussions on this and talked with a couple clubs that completed STC's/FDSO field inspections. I get the feeling it's a real headache, some people concluded they wouldn't do it again. Anyone have a better experience or advice?
> Thanks
> D
See if the Pawnee is certified as "Normal" vs. "Restricted". If it is in the "Restricted" category, the "special purpose" will be on the Airworthiness Certificate and it needs to say "glider towing" - not "banner towing" - in order to legally tow gliders.
Bob Youngblood
September 16th 19, 06:51 PM
On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 11:22:06 AM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> Interesting that someone put an O-470 on a Pawnee. Do you know which model it is?
>
> To answer your question the TOST tow release comes with an STC. W&W does a pretty good job supporting them.
> Here’s the standard one-
> https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/airplane-tow-supports/tow-release-for-pa25.html
> If your club wants to spend a lot more money and go to a retractable one here’s the link-
> https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/tow-cable-retractor-wing-with-guillotine-drg-for-pa25.html
> Pros and cons for each. Depends on how your club operates.
>
> I would put the release in front of the throttle where the pilot can easily see it. One of the Pawnee’s I fly is set up that way. The other two use the stock dump lever. Which is acceptable but not as convenient to reach.
>
> Any IA can sign off the FAA form 337 to document the conversion. The approved data will come from the STC and AC 43.13.
>
> Hope this helps.
> Charlie
The TOST DOES NOT come with a STC. It comes with an EASA1 European form not a STC. Read 43-13-2A Chapter8, page 73-75, Circular adv. This is not as difficult as one might think. Bob
Bob Youngblood
September 16th 19, 08:07 PM
On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 2:43:06 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> 'Duster[_2_ Wrote:
> > ;1000607']We are looking to purchase a Pawnee PA-25 that had a
> > Continental engine installed (230hp?). It is approved for aerial towing
> > (Schweizer hook) and we are trying to decide if it's worth the
> > time/money to seek an FAA conversion to towing gliders with a TOST. Have
> > read through several of the RAS discussions on this and talked with a
> > couple clubs that completed STC's/FDSO field inspections. I get the
> > feeling it's a real headache, some people concluded they wouldn't do it
> > again. Anyone have a better experience or advice?
> > Thanks
> > D
>
> "Trying to decide if it's worth the time/money?" Time and money should
> not enter into the equation when the life of your tow pilot may depend
> on the TOST release. If you don't care about the life of your tow pilot
> then by all means keep the Schweizer hook. While you're at it you might
> give consideration to placing the release handle where the pilot can
> quickly access it in the upright, seated position. JMHO
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walt Connelly
I think that Walt has pretty much summed up the situation. Walt has see my towplane release arrangement and commented on what he saw on the Yellow Gorilla, simply put, it is SAFE, but not fool proof. Get that release handle where it is within easy reach of the pilot.
Charles Longley
September 16th 19, 09:41 PM
On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 10:51:07 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 11:22:06 AM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > Interesting that someone put an O-470 on a Pawnee. Do you know which model it is?
> >
> > To answer your question the TOST tow release comes with an STC. W&W does a pretty good job supporting them.
> > Here’s the standard one-
> > https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/airplane-tow-supports/tow-release-for-pa25.html
> > If your club wants to spend a lot more money and go to a retractable one here’s the link-
> > https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/tow-cable-retractor-wing-with-guillotine-drg-for-pa25.html
> > Pros and cons for each. Depends on how your club operates.
> >
> > I would put the release in front of the throttle where the pilot can easily see it. One of the Pawnee’s I fly is set up that way. The other two use the stock dump lever. Which is acceptable but not as convenient to reach.
> >
> > Any IA can sign off the FAA form 337 to document the conversion. The approved data will come from the STC and AC 43.13.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> > Charlie
>
> The TOST DOES NOT come with a STC. It comes with an EASA1 European form not a STC. Read 43-13-2A Chapter8, page 73-75, Circular adv. This is not as difficult as one might think. Bob
I've only put one on and it was a couple of years ago. I thought it had an STC. Call W&W to check. My memory isn't perfect. I do remember it being a relatively easy install and 337. Correct on AC 43-13-2A. That's the data I used. Not a big deal.
I 100% agree on getting rid of the Schweizer hook! I wont tow with one. The sense I got from the Mike (duster) is they want to put one on but need to research cost. With a club it needs to be approved by their board typically.. I am more than happy to provide info to make it safer.
Bob Youngblood
September 16th 19, 10:09 PM
On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:41:58 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 10:51:07 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 11:22:06 AM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > Interesting that someone put an O-470 on a Pawnee. Do you know which model it is?
> > >
> > > To answer your question the TOST tow release comes with an STC. W&W does a pretty good job supporting them.
> > > Here’s the standard one-
> > > https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/airplane-tow-supports/tow-release-for-pa25.html
> > > If your club wants to spend a lot more money and go to a retractable one here’s the link-
> > > https://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-parts/tow-equipment/tow-cable-retractor-wing-with-guillotine-drg-for-pa25.html
> > > Pros and cons for each. Depends on how your club operates.
> > >
> > > I would put the release in front of the throttle where the pilot can easily see it. One of the Pawnee’s I fly is set up that way. The other two use the stock dump lever. Which is acceptable but not as convenient to reach.
> > >
> > > Any IA can sign off the FAA form 337 to document the conversion. The approved data will come from the STC and AC 43.13.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps.
> > > Charlie
> >
> > The TOST DOES NOT come with a STC. It comes with an EASA1 European form not a STC. Read 43-13-2A Chapter8, page 73-75, Circular adv. This is not as difficult as one might think. Bob
>
> I've only put one on and it was a couple of years ago. I thought it had an STC. Call W&W to check. My memory isn't perfect. I do remember it being a relatively easy install and 337. Correct on AC 43-13-2A. That's the data I used. Not a big deal.
>
> I 100% agree on getting rid of the Schweizer hook! I wont tow with one. The sense I got from the Mike (duster) is they want to put one on but need to research cost. With a club it needs to be approved by their board typically. I am more than happy to provide info to make it safer.
I do recall that the Pacific Aero tow hook does have an STC for some models, but not the PA25. They do have it on the PA18 and a couple of others. I recently purchased a Pacific Aero unit that I plan on doing considerable testing to determine the integrity of the hook. My first observation is that it is a redesign of the old Schweizer hook but is much improved and the ring cannot slide for ward on the assembly. This along with the hopper dump handle as the release arm should prove to be an excellent assembly, but only time and results will come into the conclusion.
Duster[_2_]
September 16th 19, 11:38 PM
Good point; the one of interest to us had earlier been incorrectly categorized as "Normal" which the FAA since corrected to read "Restricted; aerial advertising, Other- Banner Tow, Glider Tow". The "Time and Cost" concern regarded converting this Pawnee from banner towing with Schweizer release to glider towing w/Tost release. We love our tow pilots.
.....though sometimes that's not so obvious. This summer a misplaced tow rope got sucked into our tow plane's prop. Only one tow after the engine was replaced and prop overhauled; and while towing a twin Grob (single pilot), rear canopy started to raise @ 2,500', glider nose pulls up, tow plane's tail goes vertical, rope breaks, tow plane enters spin, spin recovery but becomes inverted, tow pilot recovers at 500' AGL. Finally the tow plane and glider land safely but both front and rear glider canopies have departed (front one broke loose possibly when cockpit items shattered it when in negative g. We are so thankful the tow pilot's vast experience got him out of that mess!
Charles Longley
September 17th 19, 02:12 AM
Wow good job on the tow pilots part!
Walt Connelly
September 17th 19, 02:35 PM
On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 2:43:06 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
'Duster[_2_ Wrote:
;1000607']We are looking to purchase a Pawnee PA-25 that had a
Continental engine installed (230hp?). It is approved for aerial towing
(Schweizer hook) and we are trying to decide if it's worth the
time/money to seek an FAA conversion to towing gliders with a TOST. Have
read through several of the RAS discussions on this and talked with a
couple clubs that completed STC's/FDSO field inspections. I get the
feeling it's a real headache, some people concluded they wouldn't do it
again. Anyone have a better experience or advice?
Thanks
D
"Trying to decide if it's worth the time/money?" Time and money should
not enter into the equation when the life of your tow pilot may depend
on the TOST release. If you don't care about the life of your tow pilot
then by all means keep the Schweizer hook. While you're at it you might
give consideration to placing the release handle where the pilot can
quickly access it in the upright, seated position. JMHO
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
--
Walt Connelly
I think that Walt has pretty much summed up the situation. Walt has see my towplane release arrangement and commented on what he saw on the Yellow Gorilla, simply put, it is SAFE, but not fool proof. Get that release handle where it is within easy reach of the pilot.
There is NO foolproof system, if the glider kites suddenly at a low enough altitude the tow plane will go in with potentially catastrophic results. I'm not talking about the slow, annoying type of kite, I'm talking the tow plane going from staight and level to nose steeply down in the wink of an eye, it happens. My concern is that a known deficiency in both the Schweizer hook and the position of the release continue to prevail. IF the Schweizer hook is to be used it must be inverted and the release handle needs to be such that it is immediately available to the pilot in the upright, seated position. If your IA can't figure out how to do this get another IA.
Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot.
February 25th 20, 03:32 PM
On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 3:11:15 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 8:43:07 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > Bob Youngblood;997736 Wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:-
> > > I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray
> > > plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird,
> > > and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee
> > > that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow
> > > release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy
> > > to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on
> > > the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In
> > > this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the
> > > pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their
> > > eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make
> > > this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the
> > > application.
> > > If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider
> > > this modification. -
> > > Kirk, that is in fact a very nice system. Take yours off the Pawnee and
> > > send it to me. Times are tough and I am running low on cash, thinking
> > > about calling JJ Wentworth for a small advance. Bob
> >
> >
> > Bob, the system on your Yellow Gorilla should be the standard throughout
> > the towing world. Everyone agrees the handle down, parallel to the
> > floor is difficult to access in an emergency and unsafe. The Schweizer
> > tow hook standardly installed is equally unsafe. While there is no way
> > to make towing completely safe for the tow pilot, at too low an altitude
> > a kiting glider is a death sentence and there is no justifiable reason
> > for any facility to continue with a release system proven to fail when
> > it needs to work the most. Just my humble opinion.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now happily flying helicopters.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walt Connelly
>
> Walt, thanks for the kind words. I first made that arrangement on Dusty, my first Pawnee, and then on to the Yellow Gorilla. After many tows and other tow pilots examining the system they all have been in agreement with your observation. I am now completing a new Pawnee which is named Towpecker, it too will have the same release mechanism that even has better performance.. Bob
Bob
Would it be possible to get some pictures of your release set up? Our Pawnee the floor mounted lever which is not acceptable and we are looking at alternatives.
Bruce Cynamon
Weirsdale Glider Club
Bob Youngblood
February 26th 20, 12:36 PM
On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 10:32:06 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 3:11:15 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 8:43:07 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > > Bob Youngblood;997736 Wrote:
> > > > On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:-
> > > > I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray
> > > > plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird,
> > > > and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee
> > > > that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow
> > > > release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy
> > > > to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on
> > > > the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In
> > > > this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the
> > > > pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their
> > > > eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make
> > > > this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the
> > > > application.
> > > > If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider
> > > > this modification. -
> > > > Kirk, that is in fact a very nice system. Take yours off the Pawnee and
> > > > send it to me. Times are tough and I am running low on cash, thinking
> > > > about calling JJ Wentworth for a small advance. Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob, the system on your Yellow Gorilla should be the standard throughout
> > > the towing world. Everyone agrees the handle down, parallel to the
> > > floor is difficult to access in an emergency and unsafe. The Schweizer
> > > tow hook standardly installed is equally unsafe. While there is no way
> > > to make towing completely safe for the tow pilot, at too low an altitude
> > > a kiting glider is a death sentence and there is no justifiable reason
> > > for any facility to continue with a release system proven to fail when
> > > it needs to work the most. Just my humble opinion.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > Now happily flying helicopters.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Walt Connelly
> >
> > Walt, thanks for the kind words. I first made that arrangement on Dusty, my first Pawnee, and then on to the Yellow Gorilla. After many tows and other tow pilots examining the system they all have been in agreement with your observation. I am now completing a new Pawnee which is named Towpecker, it too will have the same release mechanism that even has better performance. Bob
>
> Bob
>
> Would it be possible to get some pictures of your release set up? Our Pawnee the floor mounted lever which is not acceptable and we are looking at alternatives.
>
> Bruce Cynamon
> Weirsdale Glider Club
Bruce, I would be glad to send you some pics of the tow release handle that I have developed on both of my Pawnee's. I never liked the release handle on the floor, it is difficult to get to regardless of an emergency or not. The Pawnee came with a hopper release handle located on the left side of the cockpit rising from beneath the floor and extends about three feet up in a forward position. If the pilot needed to dump the hopper the handle was there and made for easy access.
I used this same assembly as my tow release handle. The assembly itself sits in a two bushing support, super strong and easy to configure fora tow release handle. I did a bit of tig welding on the attach point to attach the release cable at the proper angle and guided the cable back to the Tost release assembly. This assembly works beautifully and ensures greater safety and easy access. Walt visited our club and looked at how I had done the tow release, his opinion of the release has been been backed by many tow pilots that have flown the Yellow Gorilla and other Pawnee tow pilots.
Safety comes first for the tow pilot, my next tow will not be my first, and damn sure don't want it o be the last. Bob
February 26th 20, 01:07 PM
Bruce Cynamon
Weirsdale Glider Club
Bruce,
Curious as to what days your club is active. Would like to drop by and have a look. What glider/gliders do you have? While I have no interest in towing ever again, with the proper ship I might be interested in catching a thermal. I own property up in your area.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot (7000 TOWS)
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
February 27th 20, 03:32 PM
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 8:07:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Bruce Cynamon
> Weirsdale Glider Club
>
> Bruce,
>
> Curious as to what days your club is active. Would like to drop by and have a look. What glider/gliders do you have? While I have no interest in towing ever again, with the proper ship I might be interested in catching a thermal. I own property up in your area.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot (7000 TOWS)
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
Walt
We do not have a regular schedule, we fly when the conditions look good and the tow plane is available. I emailed you my phone number, drop me a line and we can let you know when we will flying.
Bruce
February 27th 20, 03:35 PM
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 7:36:39 AM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 10:32:06 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 3:11:15 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 8:43:07 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > > > Bob Youngblood;997736 Wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:-
> > > > > I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray
> > > > > plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird,
> > > > > and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee
> > > > > that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow
> > > > > release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy
> > > > > to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on
> > > > > the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In
> > > > > this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the
> > > > > pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their
> > > > > eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make
> > > > > this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the
> > > > > application.
> > > > > If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider
> > > > > this modification. -
> > > > > Kirk, that is in fact a very nice system. Take yours off the Pawnee and
> > > > > send it to me. Times are tough and I am running low on cash, thinking
> > > > > about calling JJ Wentworth for a small advance. Bob
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bob, the system on your Yellow Gorilla should be the standard throughout
> > > > the towing world. Everyone agrees the handle down, parallel to the
> > > > floor is difficult to access in an emergency and unsafe. The Schweizer
> > > > tow hook standardly installed is equally unsafe. While there is no way
> > > > to make towing completely safe for the tow pilot, at too low an altitude
> > > > a kiting glider is a death sentence and there is no justifiable reason
> > > > for any facility to continue with a release system proven to fail when
> > > > it needs to work the most. Just my humble opinion.
> > > >
> > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > Now happily flying helicopters.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Walt Connelly
> > >
> > > Walt, thanks for the kind words. I first made that arrangement on Dusty, my first Pawnee, and then on to the Yellow Gorilla. After many tows and other tow pilots examining the system they all have been in agreement with your observation. I am now completing a new Pawnee which is named Towpecker, it too will have the same release mechanism that even has better performance. Bob
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > Would it be possible to get some pictures of your release set up? Our Pawnee the floor mounted lever which is not acceptable and we are looking at alternatives.
> >
> > Bruce Cynamon
> > Weirsdale Glider Club
>
> Bruce, I would be glad to send you some pics of the tow release handle that I have developed on both of my Pawnee's. I never liked the release handle on the floor, it is difficult to get to regardless of an emergency or not.. The Pawnee came with a hopper release handle located on the left side of the cockpit rising from beneath the floor and extends about three feet up in a forward position. If the pilot needed to dump the hopper the handle was there and made for easy access.
> I used this same assembly as my tow release handle. The assembly itself sits in a two bushing support, super strong and easy to configure fora tow release handle. I did a bit of tig welding on the attach point to attach the release cable at the proper angle and guided the cable back to the Tost release assembly. This assembly works beautifully and ensures greater safety and easy access. Walt visited our club and looked at how I had done the tow release, his opinion of the release has been been backed by many tow pilots that have flown the Yellow Gorilla and other Pawnee tow pilots.
> Safety comes first for the tow pilot, my next tow will not be my first, and damn sure don't want it o be the last. Bob
Bob
Would appreciate any information you can provide. Are you in Vero Beach by chance? That is not terribly far from here, one or more of us could come over for a look see.
Bruce
Bob Youngblood
February 27th 20, 10:39 PM
On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:35:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 7:36:39 AM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 10:32:06 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 3:11:15 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 8:43:07 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> > > > > Bob Youngblood;997736 Wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:-
> > > > > > I am currently rebuilding another Pawnee and converting from a spray
> > > > > > plane to a tow plane. Extensive work has been completed on this bird,
> > > > > > and I am about ready to install the tow hook. This is the third Pawnee
> > > > > > that I have converted and I have used the hopper dump handle as the tow
> > > > > > release handle which provides a huge amount of leverage and also a easy
> > > > > > to get to location. I most cases the tow handle release is located on
> > > > > > the floor, which causes the pilot to reach down to get to the handle. In
> > > > > > this case the hopper release handle is just to the left side of the
> > > > > > pilot and requires no bending down and allows the pilot to keep their
> > > > > > eye on flying the plane. It requires just a bit of modification to make
> > > > > > this conversion and in my case the inspector was impressed with the
> > > > > > application.
> > > > > > If any of you are considering converting a Pawnee you should consider
> > > > > > this modification. -
> > > > > > Kirk, that is in fact a very nice system. Take yours off the Pawnee and
> > > > > > send it to me. Times are tough and I am running low on cash, thinking
> > > > > > about calling JJ Wentworth for a small advance. Bob
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob, the system on your Yellow Gorilla should be the standard throughout
> > > > > the towing world. Everyone agrees the handle down, parallel to the
> > > > > floor is difficult to access in an emergency and unsafe. The Schweizer
> > > > > tow hook standardly installed is equally unsafe. While there is no way
> > > > > to make towing completely safe for the tow pilot, at too low an altitude
> > > > > a kiting glider is a death sentence and there is no justifiable reason
> > > > > for any facility to continue with a release system proven to fail when
> > > > > it needs to work the most. Just my humble opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > > Now happily flying helicopters.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > >
> > > > Walt, thanks for the kind words. I first made that arrangement on Dusty, my first Pawnee, and then on to the Yellow Gorilla. After many tows and other tow pilots examining the system they all have been in agreement with your observation. I am now completing a new Pawnee which is named Towpecker, it too will have the same release mechanism that even has better performance. Bob
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > Would it be possible to get some pictures of your release set up? Our Pawnee the floor mounted lever which is not acceptable and we are looking at alternatives.
> > >
> > > Bruce Cynamon
> > > Weirsdale Glider Club
> >
> > Bruce, I would be glad to send you some pics of the tow release handle that I have developed on both of my Pawnee's. I never liked the release handle on the floor, it is difficult to get to regardless of an emergency or not. The Pawnee came with a hopper release handle located on the left side of the cockpit rising from beneath the floor and extends about three feet up in a forward position. If the pilot needed to dump the hopper the handle was there and made for easy access.
> > I used this same assembly as my tow release handle. The assembly itself sits in a two bushing support, super strong and easy to configure fora tow release handle. I did a bit of tig welding on the attach point to attach the release cable at the proper angle and guided the cable back to the Tost release assembly. This assembly works beautifully and ensures greater safety and easy access. Walt visited our club and looked at how I had done the tow release, his opinion of the release has been been backed by many tow pilots that have flown the Yellow Gorilla and other Pawnee tow pilots.
> > Safety comes first for the tow pilot, my next tow will not be my first, and damn sure don't want it o be the last. Bob
>
> Bob
>
> Would appreciate any information you can provide. Are you in Vero Beach by chance? That is not terribly far from here, one or more of us could come over for a look see.
>
> Bruce
Yes, I live in Vero, here all the time
I am looking for information on the proper shock cord rings to use on a Pawnee landing gear converted to towing. If you can help, I would love to talk to you. Doug Witkowski (512) 431-6579
Bob Youngblood
June 26th 20, 10:51 PM
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 12:35:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I am looking for information on the proper shock cord rings to use on a Pawnee landing gear converted to towing. If you can help, I would love to talk to you. Doug Witkowski (512) 431-6579
Doug, the shock cord assembly varied on different models and serial numbers.. Take into consideration the max gross weight of the particular model and understand that is is how the different cord was determined. Shock cords were either 5/8 or 3/4 inch diameter. You can refer to page 40 of the piper PA25 parts manual for the exact part number.There was a serial number that held 3 cords, most only held 2 and I would never put three on a Pawnee used for towing only, it makes for a gear that has no cushion or stretch, like riding a bronco bull!I have installed several of these bungee cords on the Pawnee gear for a few planes. Trust me , it is a or can be a very dangerous ordeal. I will get a few pics out to you tomorrow showing my cord arrangement. Bob
On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 12:35:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I am looking for information on the proper shock cord rings to use on a Pawnee landing gear converted to towing. If you can help, I would love to talk to you. Doug Witkowski (512) 431-6579
Depends on which Pawnee. We have a 180 Pawnee and use two 1080 bungees(not 1080HD)
Now the gear actually moves.
This experience not applicable to 235's.
FWIW
UH
Dan DeWitt
September 7th 20, 01:51 PM
I am looking for information on relocating the tow release handle on the Pawnee PA25 from the floor to forward of the throttle.
Thanks,
Dan DeWitt 765 744 4132
Dave Springford
September 7th 20, 05:33 PM
Dan,
I have posted 5 pictures here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/15627832@N05/?
The pictures show how the release cable is routed in our Pawnees for a TOST release. If you are using a Schweizer release then this won't work because you need a lot more leverage than you do for the Tost.
Basically, the cable follows the left rudder cable up to the cockpit from the release, goes to a pulley on the floor and then goes vertically upwards to the bottom of the instrument panel.
We have a golf ball (with a hole drilled through) through which the cable passes to act as a grab. You can either pull the cable aft, or push it forward to activate the Tost release.
Hopefully, this is helpful.
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