Opinions on Varios

[Bruce]

Time to start a new debate.

How do pressure transducer varios compare to traditional mechanical varios in
club use?
Can you mix and match a capacity vario and a pressure transducer vario on a
single TE probe?
Do students - please note NOT experienced pilots - find the lcd display units
easy to use, or are moving needle varios better (I know we should be using the
audio - but for the times when we want to see the climb performance the question
is still valid)

We are looking at replacing some vintage mechanical varios, and have some debate
about the advisability of needing electrical power for the vario and the
relative benefits of the Borgelt B40 and the Tasman V1000, and of course another
set of Winter mechanicals...

Being a computer type, I am biased towards the "no moving parts" V1000. So - any
views?

Bruce

[Charles Yeates]

Bruce

I have used a V1000 attached to the TE probe on the PW-6 for three years
-- perfectly satisfied.
--
Charles Yeates

Swidnik PW-6U & PW-5
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html


Bruce wrote:
> Time to start a new debate.
>
> How do pressure transducer varios compare to traditional mechanical
> varios in club use?
> Can you mix and match a capacity vario and a pressure transducer vario
> on a single TE probe?
> Do students - please note NOT experienced pilots - find the lcd display
> units easy to use, or are moving needle varios better (I know we should
> be using the audio - but for the times when we want to see the climb
> performance the question is still valid)
>
> We are looking at replacing some vintage mechanical varios, and have
> some debate about the advisability of needing electrical power for the
> vario and the relative benefits of the Borgelt B40 and the Tasman V1000,
> and of course another set of Winter mechanicals...
>
> Being a computer type, I am biased towards the "no moving parts" V1000.
> So - any views?
>
> Bruce

[Mike the Strike]

It's probably good to avoid sharing pressure transducer varios with
others that use capacity flasks as these introduce airflow into the TE
plumbing system that can degrade accuracy.

My main vario is a Borgelt B 50 and I replaced my excellent Sage
mechanical vario with a Borgelt B 40. I find it hard to thermal
accurately without an audio vario and switched mainly for this reason.
I can't say that I noticed any major changes in the B 50 when I removed
the Sage and its flask, though.

I can't think of any good reason to keep a mechanical or flask-driven
vario with the inexpensive pressure units around, especially those like
the B 40 that have an internal battery.

I'm all for no moving parts, but how do you make sound without a
diaphragm?

Mike

ASW 20 WA

[chipsoars]

In my old ship, a 19B, I had a Sage and a LX 1600. I recall a
suggestion, source of which I don't recall, about placing the T as far
back as possible. This seemed to work; at least the correlation
between both instruments was good.

In the new ship, we are using a LX7K and a B40. Both pressure
transducers and I like the idea of having the back-up instrument having
the audio.

[John Galloway]

If a pressure transducer vario and a flow measuring
(mechanical or electric) vario share the same TE line
and that line is divided near the varios then there
cannot fail to be some degree adverse effect on the
pressure transducer vario as varying the flow up and
down the TE line generated by the flask vario will
cause pressure changes that will be sensed by the pressure
transducer - especially if any sort of restriction
is placed in the TE line on the probe side of the division
of the line to the 2 varios. If you do mix the 2 vario
types then divide the line as far aft along the TE
line from the varios as you can reach.

The flask vario is the only pneumatic instrument in
the panel that measures flow - all the others are various
types of pressure sensor.

John Galloway


At 21:00 24 February 2005, Bruce wrote:
>Time to start a new debate.
>
>How do pressure transducer varios compare to traditional
>mechanical varios in
>club use?
>Can you mix and match a capacity vario and a pressure
>transducer vario on a
>single TE probe?
>Do students - please note NOT experienced pilots -
>find the lcd display units
>easy to use, or are moving needle varios better (I
>know we should be using the
>audio - but for the times when we want to see the climb
>performance the question
>is still valid)
>
>We are looking at replacing some vintage mechanical
>varios, and have some debate
>about the advisability of needing electrical power
>for the vario and the
>relative benefits of the Borgelt B40 and the Tasman
>V1000, and of course another
>set of Winter mechanicals...
>
>Being a computer type, I am biased towards the 'no
>moving parts' V1000. So - any
>views?
>
>Bruce
>

[Kevin Anderson]

If you mix the pressure sensor, ie Tasman with an older type vario on the
same line, it will give you difficulty. I had a older Ball mixed with a
Tasman, and the Y was under the panel. This degraded the function of the
Tasman, with over reading spikes, and under reading, because of the flow in
and out of the Ball.

When I seperated them, and had the Tasman on its own like, it worked great.

I have just gone to a B-50 to drive winpilot, so I have a Tasman that is one
year old for sale.

Kevin Anderson
"Bruce" > wrote in message
...
> Time to start a new debate.
>
> How do pressure transducer varios compare to traditional mechanical varios
> in club use?
> Can you mix and match a capacity vario and a pressure transducer vario on
> a single TE probe?
> Do students - please note NOT experienced pilots - find the lcd display
> units easy to use, or are moving needle varios better (I know we should be
> using the audio - but for the times when we want to see the climb
> performance the question is still valid)
>
> We are looking at replacing some vintage mechanical varios, and have some
> debate about the advisability of needing electrical power for the vario
> and the relative benefits of the Borgelt B40 and the Tasman V1000, and of
> course another set of Winter mechanicals...
>
> Being a computer type, I am biased towards the "no moving parts" V1000.
> So - any views?
>
> Bruce

[Tim Mara]

There are always some adverse effects when combining several instruments on
the same pneumatic source, there are greater degrees of these errors when
combining transducer types (as almost all electronic types are today) with
vane or calibrated leak type and thermister types...these errors can be
reduced some with more "creative" plumbing, but honestly.the errors are
generally small......and in most club type gliders in the hands of many club
type pilots, generally what they look at is the ups and downs indications
more than the ups .010 knots as opposed to .015 knots indications....even in
most "so called" sophisticated competitions sailplanes, I seriously doubt
their pilots really know just how accurate or inaccurate their indications
are, though they may have done a little more to tune their TE systems, few
ever get the indicated average on their flight computers to match their
altimeters....try it sometime...read the averager, set a stop watch, try to
maintain the average (even in smooth air in glide) and compare....you might
be surprised..but up is still up and down still down......a needle-width
will not make any of us great champions or losers...
The vario will report what it sees......meaning if you have good pneumatics
the instruments should indicate correctly....as for response rates and
dampening, that is generally in the variometer design quality. Most today
are usually good.....
features you can compare that are selectable by the model and choice you
make are quality of construction....display quality, visually and
durability..audio sound and quality through the ranges...ad finally things
like RF shielding...
I've flown with nearly all types you might mention....I tend to prefer the
"feel" for lack of a better description, of a needle movement (no....I'm not
a junkie) as opposed to the LCD types...it just looks or appears more like
the sensations in flight....I think this is a little easier on club type
flyers also since it's more natural along other mechanical instrument
movements....Since I do sell instruments I have both LCD types and normal
needle types.....I have no special bias to either...
tim

Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at:
www.wingsandwheels.com


"Bruce" > wrote in message
...
> Time to start a new debate.
>
> How do pressure transducer varios compare to traditional mechanical varios
> in club use?
> Can you mix and match a capacity vario and a pressure transducer vario on
> a single TE probe?
> Do students - please note NOT experienced pilots - find the lcd display
> units easy to use, or are moving needle varios better (I know we should be
> using the audio - but for the times when we want to see the climb
> performance the question is still valid)
>
> We are looking at replacing some vintage mechanical varios, and have some
> debate about the advisability of needing electrical power for the vario
> and the relative benefits of the Borgelt B40 and the Tasman V1000, and of
> course another set of Winter mechanicals...
>
> Being a computer type, I am biased towards the "no moving parts" V1000.
> So - any views?
>
> Bruce

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I sell a wide variety of varios so I'll try to be unbiased.

The Tasman V1000 is very popular here in Minnesota. The MN Soaring Club has
them in a few gliders. That has led to them being used in many privately
owned gliders. They are very well liked. I like that they have a nice
average display and easy to read display and don't require a capacity flask.

A very similar product is the new LX16. It does everything the Tasman V1000
does. It also has a "flight timer" display. The only thing to consider is
that it has an external speaker which must be mounted somewhere. Like the
Tasman it has no moving parts. The Tasman comes with a built-in speaker but
an external speaker is an option.

Also, many people don't realize that Winter offers some pretty fast
mechanical varios. They use 2 times the capacity flask volume (0.9 L) as a
standard vario.

Details on many varios are available here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/varios.htm

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com


"Bruce" > wrote in message
...
> Time to start a new debate.
>
> How do pressure transducer varios compare to traditional mechanical varios
> in club use?
> Can you mix and match a capacity vario and a pressure transducer vario on
> a single TE probe?
> Do students - please note NOT experienced pilots - find the lcd display
> units easy to use, or are moving needle varios better (I know we should be
> using the audio - but for the times when we want to see the climb
> performance the question is still valid)
>
> We are looking at replacing some vintage mechanical varios, and have some
> debate about the advisability of needing electrical power for the vario
> and the relative benefits of the Borgelt B40 and the Tasman V1000, and of
> course another set of Winter mechanicals...
>
> Being a computer type, I am biased towards the "no moving parts" V1000.
> So - any views?
>
> Bruce

[cernauta]

Bruce > wrote:

>Time to start a new debate.
>
>How do pressure transducer varios compare to traditional mechanical varios in
>club use?

>Do students - please note NOT experienced pilots - find the lcd display units
>easy to use,

I personally prefer mechanical indicators (no LCDs, nor stepmotor
driven needles).
I believe capacity (flow) variometers are superior, in response and
"feel" to the pressure transducer types.
IIRC, the ILEC Sb-8 and SN-10 are among the very few electronic "flow
variometers": they have a small internal capacity, instead of an
external bottle.

On my DG selflaunching sailplane, I have changed the connection of the
plumbing in the panel, so that now when I select "static source" for
variometry (intended to be used only during engine operation accordin
to manual), the pneumatic Winter vario is connected to static
(uncompensated) and the electronic ILEC is the only vario connected to
the TE probe. Works great.
In case of malfunction of the electronic unit, I can swith the Winter
to TE, and still have at least one working compensated variometer.

A new electronic variometer and advanced flight computer is being
produced in Italy. It's a flow measuring unit, with external standard
capacity. (and the ability to consitnuously measure outside air
humidity, with prediction of max convective height, VGA color
touchscreen of large format, and much more). (www.glider.it)

Aldo Cernezzi
dg600M