Fueling from plastic gasoline containors [Archive]

Bushy Pete

February 27th 05, 01:23 PM

I use 20 litre plastic jerry cans to pick up fuel for the bush strip that I
fly out of at the moment and my instructor there who has over 50 years of
bush flying recommends plastic fuel drums in preference to steel ones. Most
of the steel jerry cans have some paint on the inside which will continue to
flake off and contaminate your fuel for years and years.

Make sure you use a funnel with a decent filter, one that catches the finest
particals, and preferably one of the fancy (about Australian $30 to $50)
that catch water as well as crap. Keep it in the aircraft so you can refuel
with confidence anywhere you may travel. Don't use fuel from the very bottom
of the container and take extra care during preflight inspection water
check.

I'm currently using this to fill both two stroke ultralight and C172, but
the same basic principles apply to all bush operations.

Make sure that (eg 200 litre) drums are stored so that water condensation or
rain cannot sit on top of the drum and be drawn down through the cap's
threads as the fuel inside contracts with temperature as this will give a
high water content. If they must be stored outside, leave them on their side
so rain water does not sit.

I'd be more worried about an engine stoppage from poor fuel than a fire
caused by static from a proper plastic fuel container. I have heard, but
cannot confirm that the main problem with static and plastic is the use of
different types of plastic that may be used for petrol storage when no other
container is at hand such as old drink bottles.

Hope this helps,
Peter

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> I may have an opportunity to move to a hanger at a private strip; no
> facilities, so I'll have to tote in my own gasoline in 2 1/2 gal
> plastic containors.
>
> When refueling, do I only need to worry about grounding the a/c?
>
> How would static be generated? - Mike

Stealth Pilot

February 27th 05, 02:28 PM

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:20:21 -0500, Michael Horowitz
> wrote:

>I may have an opportunity to move to a hanger at a private strip; no
>facilities, so I'll have to tote in my own gasoline in 2 1/2 gal
>plastic containors.
>
>When refueling, do I only need to worry about grounding the a/c?
>
>How would static be generated? - Mike

static is generated by the movement of the fluid. the more turbulent
the pour the more static electricity that can be potentially
generated. it is supposedly a dislodging of electrons as the atoms
bump into each other.

what you are concerned with is that the refuelling kit and the
aircraft have the same static potential.
with the same potential there can be no spark between the items
triggering combustion in the fuel vapours.

my static lead is just 2 metres of 110volt vinyl insulated auto
electrical wire with a crocodile clip on each end.

for plastic containers I have heard of the use of a length of welding
rod poked down into the fuel and clipping on to the static lead. I
dont know how practical this actually is.
Stealth Pilot

[email protected]

February 27th 05, 02:33 PM

Michael Horowitz wrote:
> I may have an opportunity to move to a hanger at a private strip; no
> facilities, so I'll have to tote in my own gasoline in 2 1/2 gal
> plastic containors.
>
> When refueling, do I only need to worry about grounding the a/c?
>
> How would static be generated? - Mike

************************************************** *********************

REPLY:
Mike;
Just moving the plastic can around will develop a static charge on the
can. When you get the nozzle close to the metal of the plane , a
static spark jumps across the gap.. If this is at the tank - there goes
the fire !!!!
I use a plastic can -BUT- I have a little chain wired to the filler
neck of the can with an alligator clip on the loose end. I then ground
the can to a tie down ring BEFORE I open the tank and fill it.
Bob Olds RV-4
Charleston,Arkansas

************************************************** *********************

jls

February 27th 05, 02:55 PM

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Michael Horowitz wrote:
> > I may have an opportunity to move to a hanger at a private strip; no
> > facilities, so I'll have to tote in my own gasoline in 2 1/2 gal
> > plastic containors.
> >
> > When refueling, do I only need to worry about grounding the a/c?
> >
> > How would static be generated? - Mike
>
>
>
> ************************************************** *********************
>
> REPLY:
> Mike;
> Just moving the plastic can around will develop a static charge on the
> can. When you get the nozzle close to the metal of the plane , a
> static spark jumps across the gap.. If this is at the tank - there goes
> the fire !!!!
> I use a plastic can -BUT- I have a little chain wired to the filler
> neck of the can with an alligator clip on the loose end. I then ground
> the can to a tie down ring BEFORE I open the tank and fill it.
> Bob Olds RV-4
> Charleston,Arkansas
>
>
> ************************************************** *********************
>
Excellent advice.
Plus, keeping a halon fire extinguisher handy is good too. Which reminds
me.

Unlicensed owner of a newly rebuilt Cessna with overhauled engine started it
for the first time at midnight, apparently to fly it away from a large
public airport where rampchecks occur to a private field. It spit back
through the Marvel carb and caught fire. He was alone without a fire
extinguisher and the plane burnt almost to a crisp before the fire
department arrived. Moral of the story: rugged independence and shooting
from the hip can get you into trouble.

Stuart & Kathryn Fields

February 27th 05, 03:39 PM

I refuel my Safari helicopter from a 28 gal plastic fuel caddy that has a
rotary pump installed. I have a ground wire with alligator clips on both
ends and clamp one end on the metal fitting exiting the rotary pump and the
other end to the airframe. I'm in the desert where static is relatively
easy to generate, but so far with using it over several years no problem. I
have seen sparks generated fueling directly from a plastic jerry can with no
ground wire. Also no explosion or fire. The spark was above the fuel fumes
sufficiently. It did scare the heck out of me tho.

--
Stu Fields

Dave S

February 27th 05, 03:45 PM

Ground the fuel source to the aircraft, and then to the ground if able.

Also, with regards to tanks.. you can spend a little money here, and get
a 20-30 gallon marine transfer tank that has wheels. You can spend
around $200 for an electric pump to go with it. It beats making repeated
trips with a bunch of 2 1/2 gal tanks. If you want to go even further,
there are tanks that can be installed in the bed of a pickup truck for
not much more (if you drive a pickup)... or collapseable flat fuel
cells that are also sold commercially.

Dave

Michael Horowitz wrote:

> I may have an opportunity to move to a hanger at a private strip; no
> facilities, so I'll have to tote in my own gasoline in 2 1/2 gal
> plastic containors.
>
> When refueling, do I only need to worry about grounding the a/c?
>
> How would static be generated? - Mike

Denny

February 27th 05, 03:52 PM

2.5 gal seems snall, like lots of trips to the gas station, but the
basics don't change...
Use a pad on the wing to protect the paint from grit on the bottom of
the can, cardboard is what I use, but rug, blankets, etc., will work
just fine...
Stand on something so that you are high enough for comfort and can see
the fuel coming up as the tank fills...
Hold one finger over the nozzle as you tip the can... Once the nozzle
is inserted you remove your finger and only then open the vent cap on
the can...
As long as you are leaning against the airplane as you open the wing
tank, uncap the can, etc., you don't have to worry about static
sparks... Your body acts as the ground strap that equalizes the charge
between the plane and the can...
Grounding the airplane won't hurt, but it won't help either...
Have you ever put gas in a lawn mower... Ever have one burst into
flames? The ariplane is just a big lawn mower - where the blades are
not expected to cut grass, though sometimes they do...

The local skydive airplane (high wing) pilot, built a wood cradle that
cradles the can so he doesn't have to hold onto it after tipping and
inserting the nozzle...

denny

Cy Galley

February 27th 05, 05:13 PM

I'm sorry but your airplane is not just like a large lawnmower. You dump
small quantities of gas into your lawnmower. The longer you pour the larger
the static charge. Pouring small qualities is safer than dumping an entire
can. Grounding the can, funnel and tank together DOES help. It prevents
that charge from building to the point of discharge and explosion.

You can also point to fueling a car as a NON-grounded application but you
couldn't be farther from the truth. Look at the UL or DOT label on the
hose. It MUST be a conductive hose meeting certain specs.

Remember the longer you fuel, the larger the charge. The more important
grounding becomes as well.

--
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> 2.5 gal seems snall, like lots of trips to the gas station, but the
> basics don't change...
> Use a pad on the wing to protect the paint from grit on the bottom of
> the can, cardboard is what I use, but rug, blankets, etc., will work
> just fine...
> Stand on something so that you are high enough for comfort and can see
> the fuel coming up as the tank fills...
> Hold one finger over the nozzle as you tip the can... Once the nozzle
> is inserted you remove your finger and only then open the vent cap on
> the can...
> As long as you are leaning against the airplane as you open the wing
> tank, uncap the can, etc., you don't have to worry about static
> sparks... Your body acts as the ground strap that equalizes the charge
> between the plane and the can...
> Grounding the airplane won't hurt, but it won't help either...
> Have you ever put gas in a lawn mower... Ever have one burst into
> flames? The ariplane is just a big lawn mower - where the blades are
> not expected to cut grass, though sometimes they do...
>
> The local skydive airplane (high wing) pilot, built a wood cradle that
> cradles the can so he doesn't have to hold onto it after tipping and
> inserting the nozzle...
>
> denny
>

[email protected]

February 27th 05, 08:42 PM

A former student of ours had a fire refuelling an aiplane from a
plastic can. In Alaska. Cold, dry weather raises the risk considerably,
and an airplane recently landed may have more charge on it, too. Living
in Canada we regularly hear stories of fuelling accidents attributable
to static. Not too many years ago a guy got burnt when his coat,
rubbing on the wing, set off fuel fumes. How's that for being bit by
what you don't know?

Dan

[email protected]

February 28th 05, 03:30 AM

I fuel my airplane about 3 times a month with about 40 gallons of
autogas. Plastic jugs are dangerous and a hassle if you need more than
5 or 10 gallons. If you invest in the right rig it is easy and safe to
self fuel. I saw an article (in Kitplanes?) a few years back about
building a little trailer with tank and pump. That would work for
anybody. If you have a pickup truck read on.

I carry my fuel rig in the back of my pickup and take it out when not
needed. A built-in toolbox tank is really nice but will cost you about
$300 just for the tank.

Recently I was visited by a representative of the County's Fire
Department Aviation Unit just after I finished fueling. My setup passed
his inspection and cost less than $500 for everything:

1) To carry fuel on U.S. Highways the container needs to be DOT
approved and labeled/placarded as flammable liquid. Failure to do so
violates Federal Law. I bought a refurbished 55 gallon closed head
steel drum that is United Nations and DOT approved for flammable
liquids. Cost me $25. Available free some places. Self adhering
flammable-liquid placards from Gemplers were 4 for $5.

2) Bought a 15GPM Fill-Rite 12volt transfer pump that is UL-approved to
pump gasoline. Cost me about $270 from Harbour Freight. It is designed
to mount perfectly into the top of a steel drum. I also purchased a 20
foot long anti-static fuel hose to replace the standard 12-foot hose
that comes with the pump for $25 from Northern Tool. Also added a
Northern Tool Goldenrod Waterblock Filter for $25. It gets all the
water out, traps particles larger than 5-10 microns and easily connects
between the pump and the fuel hose using 3/4" pre-threaded bronze or
galvanized pipe nipples from Home Depot for $5.

4) While at Home Depot I also got some gasoline tolerant pipe joint
compound, two 20 foot lengths of #12 stranded copper ground wire (green
insulated), some alligator clips for the ground lines and the pump
power connections to connect to the truck battery, a bronze ground
strap to attach the ground wires to the pump ahead of the filter. This
stuff was about $25. Also from Home Depot a good medium-sized
foam-type fire extinguisher (8A-70B rated) $35.

5) I strap the drum with attached pump permanently to a hand
truck/dolly using 5-foot nylon ratcheting strap ties and also use a
pair of 12-foot strap ties to secure the rig to truck bed tie-down
points. Cost for straps and dolly about $50. Also got a pair of ramps
made from 2x8 x 6-foot long boards that hook to the tailgate allow me
to wheel the drum up and down from the truck bed.

On days I want to fuel the airplane I wheel the empty drum/fuel rig up
into the truck bed and drive to a gas station just outside the airport.
I ground the rig to the gas station pump and my truck chassis and test
the gasoline for alcohol/ethanol using a Petersen $15 tester. I haven't
found any gas with alcohol yet but still always test. I pump between 35
and 45 gallons of regular into the drum depending on what amount I am
sure will completely fill the airplane tanks. I drive to the airplane,
hook-up the gound lines to plane, power lines to truck battery, pull
out my step ladder and top off the airplane as fast as the FBO could do
it. If there is any gas left in the drum after the airplane is full, I
pump it into the pickup fuel tank. It is much easier to move the drum
when it is empty and safer to keep it empty too.

In reality its a bit of a work to self-fuel but I save about $35 to $45
dollars every fill up. Much more important my 7:1 compression ratio
O-470 engine runs better on 80/87 octane. No lead fouled plugs and no
lead sludge in the oil. Oil analysis greatly improved since switching
to mogas. I'm Happy. Rig was paid for after 6 months.

[email protected]

February 28th 05, 03:56 AM

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:23:15 +1000, "Bushy Pete"
> wrote:

>I use 20 litre plastic jerry cans to pick up fuel for the bush strip that I
>fly out of at the moment and my instructor there who has over 50 years of
>bush flying recommends plastic fuel drums in preference to steel ones. Most
>of the steel jerry cans have some paint on the inside which will continue to
>flake off and contaminate your fuel for years and years.

Get the good NATO approved orange plastic jerry cans - they are
conductive and non-static.
>
>Make sure you use a funnel with a decent filter, one that catches the finest
>particals, and preferably one of the fancy (about Australian $30 to $50)
>that catch water as well as crap. Keep it in the aircraft so you can refuel
>with confidence anywhere you may travel. Don't use fuel from the very bottom
>of the container and take extra care during preflight inspection water
>check.
>
>I'm currently using this to fill both two stroke ultralight and C172, but
>the same basic principles apply to all bush operations.
>
>Make sure that (eg 200 litre) drums are stored so that water condensation or
>rain cannot sit on top of the drum and be drawn down through the cap's
>threads as the fuel inside contracts with temperature as this will give a
>high water content. If they must be stored outside, leave them on their side
>so rain water does not sit.
>
>I'd be more worried about an engine stoppage from poor fuel than a fire
>caused by static from a proper plastic fuel container. I have heard, but
>cannot confirm that the main problem with static and plastic is the use of
>different types of plastic that may be used for petrol storage when no other
>container is at hand such as old drink bottles.
>
>Hope this helps,
>Peter
>
>"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>> I may have an opportunity to move to a hanger at a private strip; no
>> facilities, so I'll have to tote in my own gasoline in 2 1/2 gal
>> plastic containors.
>>
>> When refueling, do I only need to worry about grounding the a/c?
>>
>> How would static be generated? - Mike
>

Denny

February 28th 05, 12:03 PM

It is interesting to see all the replies, educating us... I often
wonder about where this knowledge came from... Being that I have only
been refueling my planes from plastic 5 gallon cans for decades, 40 to
60 gallons at a time, I guess from here on I'll just listen to the
experts do the explaining...

denny

[email protected]

February 28th 05, 01:19 PM

Michael Horowitz > wrote:
: I may have an opportunity to move to a hanger at a private strip; no
: facilities, so I'll have to tote in my own gasoline in 2 1/2 gal
: plastic containors.

I'm not sure how large of a creature you're fueling, but I've been filling my
Cherokee up with 5 or 6 gallon cans for two years now.

: When refueling, do I only need to worry about grounding the a/c?
: How would static be generated? - Mike

Grounding the a/c isn't nearly as important as grounding the can to the plane.
It's not the static buildup on the plane that's the problem, but rather the static
differential between the plane and the can as the fuel pumps charge as it flows.

You can build a nice fuel trailer for $300-$500 as people have suggested. My
solution is somewhere between cans and a fuel trailer.

I didn't like the small amount of water and particulate gunk I picked up from
the gas station, nor the feeling of having to maintain sterility with the lids, etc.
I ended up constructing a pouring spout for the cans with a spin-on, water-absorbing
fuel filter included in the spout. You can get the filter from a farm-supply or order
it... $20 or so. When I switch to another can, I simply move the pour spout to the
new can. Also, the plumbing for the spout is metal, so I can definatelively bond the
plane to the part of the can that counts..... the pouring area. Charge will not build
up, and even if it did it cannot spark where the two come together (since they're
metal-metal and already bonded together).

It's not that big of a deal to just fill up and bring along a few cans on your
way to go flying.... dump it in when you're done.

-Cory
--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Cy Galley

February 28th 05, 05:14 PM

Don't know your location, but if you never fuel except in humid conditions,
then you might be safe. It only takes one episode however.

The sion of an autodealer used gas to clean some parts. Did not make it to
his 17th birthday.

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It is interesting to see all the replies, educating us... I often
> wonder about where this knowledge came from... Being that I have only
> been refueling my planes from plastic 5 gallon cans for decades, 40 to
> 60 gallons at a time, I guess from here on I'll just listen to the
> experts do the explaining...
>
> denny
>

Carl Ellis

February 28th 05, 06:14 PM

On 27 Feb 2005 12:42:42 -0800, wrote:

> A former student of ours had a fire refuelling an aiplane from a
> plastic can. In Alaska. Cold, dry weather raises the risk considerably,
> and an airplane recently landed may have more charge on it, too. Living
> in Canada we regularly hear stories of fuelling accidents attributable
> to static. Not too many years ago a guy got burnt when his coat,
> rubbing on the wing, set off fuel fumes. How's that for being bit by
> what you don't know?
>
> Dan

It's amazing how a charge can build up. Last summer I was at the MMV
flyin. It was hot and dry and I was taking in lot of water so I needed a
visit to the Port-O-John. While I was in there, a Bonanza taxied by and
blew a big prop blast over the row of cans. Instantly, the hair on my arms
and head stood up. Quite a charge!

Michael Horowitz

February 28th 05, 09:06 PM

wrote:

>I use a plastic can -BUT- I have a little chain wired to the filler
>neck of the can with an alligator clip on the loose end. I then ground
>the can to a tie down ring BEFORE I open the tank and fill it.
>Bob Olds RV-4
>Charleston,Arkansas
>
>
>************************************************** *********************

Bob - I'm having difficulty visualizing what you did. Could you please
re-phrase your description of how the chain is connected to the filler
cap? - Mike

Michael Horowitz

February 28th 05, 09:07 PM

LCT Paintball

February 28th 05, 09:59 PM

> In reality its a bit of a work to self-fuel but I save about $35 to $45
> dollars every fill up. Much more important my 7:1 compression ratio
> O-470 engine runs better on 80/87 octane. No lead fouled plugs and no
> lead sludge in the oil. Oil analysis greatly improved since switching
> to mogas. I'm Happy. Rig was paid for after 6 months.

Auto gas cannot be used unless you're flying a home built, right?

jls

February 28th 05, 10:19 PM

Morgans

February 28th 05, 10:37 PM

"LCT Paintball" > wrote in message
news:RuMUd.77580$4q6.7306@attbi_s01...
> > In reality its a bit of a work to self-fuel but I save about $35 to $45
> > dollars every fill up. Much more important my 7:1 compression ratio
> > O-470 engine runs better on 80/87 octane. No lead fouled plugs and no
> > lead sludge in the oil. Oil analysis greatly improved since switching
> > to mogas. I'm Happy. Rig was paid for after 6 months.
>
>
> Auto gas cannot be used unless you're flying a home built, right?

Wrong. Some certified aircraft use it from the start, but most will require
a STC, which stands for supplemental type certificate. It basicly says that
someone has tested the operation of the type of plane and engine with the
auto fuel, and made any necessary changes to the engine, fuel system or
whatever. They usually are kinda expenssive in the short run, but will pay
off after a quanity of cheaper fuel has run through it. The fuel must have
no alcohol, though.
--
Jim in NC

LCT Paintball

March 1st 05, 03:15 AM

They usually are kinda expenssive in the short run, but will pay
> off after a quanity of cheaper fuel has run through it. The fuel must have
> no alcohol, though.
> --

What is kinda expensive?
Why no alcohol?

Morgans

March 1st 05, 03:40 AM

"LCT Paintball" > wrote in message
news:17RUd.77210$tl3.9758@attbi_s02...
> They usually are kinda expenssive in the short run, but will pay
> > off after a quanity of cheaper fuel has run through it. The fuel must
have
> > no alcohol, though.
> > --
>
> What is kinda expensive?

STC's could be a hundred, to several hundred, or thousands if new pistons
and stuff for an engine are required. Top of head info only; I've never got
an auto fuel STC.

> Why no alcohol?

Most airplane fuel systems and engines contain parts that do not react well
to alcohol. Some hoses and gaskets can swell up to more than double their
size.

The other major thing that needs to be looked at, is engine compression
ratios. If it is too high, the engine will detonate, and hammer or melt
holes in the pistons, and other important parts. Also, some fuel systems are
prone to vapor lock.
--
Jim in NC

John

March 1st 05, 07:03 AM

Jim Carriere wrote:

> Carl Ellis wrote:
>> On 27 Feb 2005 12:42:42 -0800, wrote:
>>
>>
>>> A former student of ours had a fire refuelling an aiplane from a
>>>plastic can. In Alaska. Cold, dry weather raises the risk considerably,
>>>and an airplane recently landed may have more charge on it, too. Living
>>>in Canada we regularly hear stories of fuelling accidents attributable
>>>to static. Not too many years ago a guy got burnt when his coat,
>>>rubbing on the wing, set off fuel fumes. How's that for being bit by
>>>what you don't know?
>>>
>>> Dan
>>
>>
>> It's amazing how a charge can build up. Last summer I was at the MMV
>> flyin. It was hot and dry and I was taking in lot of water so I needed a
>> visit to the Port-O-John. While I was in there, a Bonanza taxied by and
>> blew a big prop blast over the row of cans. Instantly, the hair on my
>> arms
>> and head stood up. Quite a charge!
>
> Imagine how this story could have ended with all the flammable gas
> present in the row of cans. One spark... :)

Yeah that row of Port-O-Johns (cans) probably had a lot of pent up gas!
John
;-)

Jim Carriere

March 1st 05, 07:10 AM

Carl Ellis wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2005 12:42:42 -0800, wrote:
>
>
>> A former student of ours had a fire refuelling an aiplane from a
>>plastic can. In Alaska. Cold, dry weather raises the risk considerably,
>>and an airplane recently landed may have more charge on it, too. Living
>>in Canada we regularly hear stories of fuelling accidents attributable
>>to static. Not too many years ago a guy got burnt when his coat,
>>rubbing on the wing, set off fuel fumes. How's that for being bit by
>>what you don't know?
>>
>> Dan
>
>
> It's amazing how a charge can build up. Last summer I was at the MMV
> flyin. It was hot and dry and I was taking in lot of water so I needed a
> visit to the Port-O-John. While I was in there, a Bonanza taxied by and
> blew a big prop blast over the row of cans. Instantly, the hair on my arms
> and head stood up. Quite a charge!

Imagine how this story could have ended with all the flammable gas
present in the row of cans. One spark... :)

LCT Paintball

March 2nd 05, 02:25 AM

> The other major thing that needs to be looked at, is engine compression
> ratios. If it is too high, the engine will detonate, and hammer or melt
> holes in the pistons, and other important parts. Also, some fuel systems
> are
> prone to vapor lock.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

So, would it be safe to assume that an engine modified to use 87 octane auto
fuel would not run well on Aviation fuel?
What would you do if your auto fueled airplane was at an airport without
access to auto fuel?

Orval Fairbairn

March 2nd 05, 03:55 AM

In article <fu9Vd.21974$Ze3.3954@attbi_s51>,
"LCT Paintball" > wrote:

> > The other major thing that needs to be looked at, is engine compression
> > ratios. If it is too high, the engine will detonate, and hammer or melt
> > holes in the pistons, and other important parts. Also, some fuel systems
> > are
> > prone to vapor lock.
> > --
> > Jim in NC
> >
>
> So, would it be safe to assume that an engine modified to use 87 octane auto
> fuel would not run well on Aviation fuel?

No.

> What would you do if your auto fueled airplane was at an airport without
> access to auto fuel?

Engines designed (or modified) to run on 87 octane auto fuel run on
100LL, with proper leaning. They can have a tendency to foul plugs if
proper care is not taken, however. Mogas STCs allow mixing of aviation
fuel with mogas, in any ratio. The main caveat is alcohol in the gas,
which is a no-no.

Morgans

March 2nd 05, 04:50 AM

>
> > What would you do if your auto fueled airplane was at an airport without
> > access to auto fuel?
>
>
> Engines designed (or modified) to run on 87 octane auto fuel run on
> 100LL, with proper leaning. They can have a tendency to foul plugs if
> proper care is not taken, however. Mogas STCs allow mixing of aviation
> fuel with mogas, in any ratio. The main caveat is alcohol in the gas,
> which is a no-no.

You know how some people with cars put hi octane in, thinking it is going to
get them better performance? Waste of money, since no more power is
produced, without re-tuning the engine, but no problem.

Same with the airplane, going to the 100 octane. Problem is the Lead in the
100(L)ow (L)ead

There is a problem at times, with the lead buidup on valves. Usually not a
problem, if done on occasion. I you have to burn 100 LL, and want to be
perfectly safe, you can buy some stuff that will scavenge the lead out, but
it is pricey.
--
Jim in NC

Roger

March 2nd 05, 08:09 AM

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:13:07 GMT, "Cy Galley" >
wrote:

>I'm sorry but your airplane is not just like a large lawnmower. You dump
>small quantities of gas into your lawnmower. The longer you pour the larger
>the static charge. Pouring small qualities is safer than dumping an entire
>can. Grounding the can, funnel and tank together DOES help. It prevents
>that charge from building to the point of discharge and explosion.
>
>You can also point to fueling a car as a NON-grounded application but you
>couldn't be farther from the truth. Look at the UL or DOT label on the
>hose. It MUST be a conductive hose meeting certain specs.
>
>Remember the longer you fuel, the larger the charge. The more important
>grounding becomes as well.

One thing this doesn't take into consideration.

"Grounding an airplane" to ground works when the fuel source is
grounded but does absolutely nothing for static discharge when fueling
from a can because it does nothing to equalize the charge differential
between the can and the airplane.

We need to realize that static electricity is like any other DC
voltage. It is "The potential difference" (the definition of voltage)
between two points and in the case of filling from a can one of those
points is not ground. One is the can and one is the airplane.

The static charge comes from the fuel flowing out of the can and the
process works like a Vandegraf generator. It does not come from
moving the can or swirling the gas in the can.

Once a solid fuel stream is flowing from the can to the tank and the
operator is against the metal airplane you have effectively reduced
the systems ability to build a charge.

Even with the underground fueling system, *IF* the proper procedure is
followed there will be no potential difference developed. HOWEVER in
the case of the underground fuel system the operator/owner has no way
of knowing if the user is going to touch the nozzle to the bare metal,
open the tank, insert the nozzle and maintain contact against the edge
of the metal take while fueling. The underground system also operates
and a higher pressure and substantially higher flow rate than pouring
out of a can, hence it would have a much higher potential for
developing a high potential difference were the hose not conductive
and the plane not grounded.

IF the source and destination are held at the same potential the
static can not develop.

If you are holding the can and touching the metal of the airplane the
electrons flowing out of the can with the gas, flow through the
airplane, through you and back to the surface of the can even though
it is plastic. Certainly it would be better if the can were
conductive but that doesn't usually seem to be a problem.
it takes very little conductivity to keep the charge neutralized, but
it does take some.

When filling from a can, I'd guess the worst possible conditions would
be holding the can up and pouring into an open funnel where the
operator holding the can is insulated from the plane

Normally you are in more danger when filling the plastic can at the
pumps than when pouring it into the airplane, unless of course you
hold the tank way up and pour through the center of the opening while
avoiding contact with both the airplane and can.

BTW, the ground to the plane from an underground system removes the
likely hood of a spark when initiating the fueling if procedures are
not followed.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger

March 2nd 05, 08:18 AM

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:40:34 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"LCT Paintball" > wrote in message
>news:17RUd.77210$tl3.9758@attbi_s02...
>> They usually are kinda expenssive in the short run, but will pay
>> > off after a quanity of cheaper fuel has run through it. The fuel must
>have
>> > no alcohol, though.
>> > --
>>
>> What is kinda expensive?
>
>STC's could be a hundred, to several hundred, or thousands if new pistons
>and stuff for an engine are required. Top of head info only; I've never got
>an auto fuel STC.
>
>> Why no alcohol?
>
>Most airplane fuel systems and engines contain parts that do not react well
>to alcohol. Some hoses and gaskets can swell up to more than double their
>size.
>
>The other major thing that needs to be looked at, is engine compression
>ratios. If it is too high, the engine will detonate, and hammer or melt

Just a note, that is not due tot he alcohol though.
Alcohol raises the octane rating with the maximum coming around 10%.
This is strange as Alcohol by itself has a very low octane rating.

>holes in the pistons, and other important parts. Also, some fuel systems are
>prone to vapor lock.

My IO470N for one. The high compression and heat can be a real bear
in the summer for hot starts. OTOH it's built for the 100 octane
avgas.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Corky Scott

March 2nd 05, 02:25 PM

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:50:28 -0500, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>You know how some people with cars put hi octane in, thinking it is going to
>get them better performance? Waste of money, since no more power is
>produced, without re-tuning the engine, but no problem.

Unless it's one of those engines that has computer controlled
individual cylinder timing using a knock sensor. Those things will
retard the timing if knocking is sensed, and advance the timing as far
as possible when knocking is not sensed.

I remember seeing a Saab with such a system being dynoed using regular
first and then high test. The engine gained some power, although I
don't remember the exact figures. I just remember that it did gain
some.

With engines that do not have constantly adjusting timing, you are
correct, using high octane gas won't make any difference in power.

Corky Scott

Marv

March 2nd 05, 05:02 PM

Some links that may be of interest on the subject of static
discharge while fueling:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march/Static1.htm

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march/Static2.htm

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march/Static3.htm

http://www.globalair.com/discussions/Georges_Hangar/article~/msgID=237

3 of the above articles are at:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march.cfm

jls

March 2nd 05, 07:01 PM

I have been fueling for years with plastic containers. As the first link
(from FAA) recommends, the fuel container nozzle is inserted into the tank
opening before fuel begins to flow, and the container nozzle continues
contact with the aircraft fuel tank throughout the process. I have never
seen a spark or had a fire, but always keep a halon fire extinguisher handy.
The aircraft is, of course, never refueled in the hangar. It is always out
on the ramp away from buildings, vehicles, and other aircraft.

That's not to say that a grounding wire should not be used.

"Marv" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Some links that may be of interest on the subject of static
> discharge while fueling:
>
> http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march/Static1.htm
>
> http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march/Static2.htm
>
> http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march/Static3.htm
>
> http://www.globalair.com/discussions/Georges_Hangar/article~/msgID=237
>
>
> 3 of the above articles are at:
>
> http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/march.cfm
>