A Scary Prospect -- What to do?

[Jay Honeck]

Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever known.
My 14-year-old son has 13 hours in his logbook, and can climb, descend and
hold altitude, track a heading, determine the proper runway to land on, and
(I suspect) probably land the plane -- although I've never let him get below
200 feet on final approach. To him, flying a light plane is no greater
challenge than beating the latest Playstation game, and going for a plane
ride is something he's done over 400 times in his short life...

Thus, we hope he'll be taking flight lessons this summer, assuming all goes
well with his grades. He thinks he's ready, and I hope he earns his glider
rating before next school year starts.

All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk in
until he quite innocently said:

"Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
plane!"

After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings up
a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you who
own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you handle
"borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting him take
the pickup down to the corner grocery...

Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Slick]

I've heard of glider pilots who have no problems at all letting their kids
take the glider out. The only difference I see is that there might be an
issue with maintenance costs coming up a little quicker. One enormous
concern is that if he does take passengers that are his friends, he must
have their parents consent. Other than that if he's chipping in money for
it, why not? I'm sure with the cost of the plane and the wages of starter
jobs, it wouldn't be frequent. Not if he plans on keeping a girlfriend that
is.
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
> Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
> perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever
known.
> My 14-year-old son has 13 hours in his logbook, and can climb, descend and
> hold altitude, track a heading, determine the proper runway to land on,
and
> (I suspect) probably land the plane -- although I've never let him get
below
> 200 feet on final approach. To him, flying a light plane is no greater
> challenge than beating the latest Playstation game, and going for a plane
> ride is something he's done over 400 times in his short life...
>
> Thus, we hope he'll be taking flight lessons this summer, assuming all
goes
> well with his grades. He thinks he's ready, and I hope he earns his
glider
> rating before next school year starts.
>
> All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk
in
> until he quite innocently said:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"
>
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings
up
> a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you who
> own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you handle
> "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting him
take
> the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>



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[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
> [...]
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings
> up a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you
> who own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you
> handle "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting
> him take the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?

Not even close to being an issue. I've got a few years yet. However...

Know your child. By the time your child is old enough to fly an airplane
with passengers, you ought to know him well enough to know whether he has
the maturity to resist doing anything dumb. You cannot ever be completely
sure, of course, but IMHO being 100% sure isn't what raising a child is
about.

I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least one serious error in judgment
during their lifetime to report, but fortunately most of us lived through
our errors, and assuming your child can keep those errors to a minimum, it's
likely he will too. Of course, so much the better if you can emphasize
enough that errors in judgment while flying an airplane are much more likely
to result in death.

I believe that a child who is permitted to take flying lessons, and who has
been approved by the FAA to fly without an instructor, should be permitted
to do so. Otherwise, why allow the flying lessons in the first place? Once
that child has been permitted to carry passengers, again...they should be
allowed to by the parent. While there are certainly some activities for
which I think it's appropriate to provide *some* degree of training but not
to allow, I don't think flying falls into that category.

With respect to carrying passengers, I do think it's reasonable for a parent
to impose "supervised flight" requirements above and beyond what the FAA
requires before carrying passengers. Once a child is deemed qualified to
carry passengers, I think it would be wise to consider a recent study that
shows that children are MUCH more likely to engage in unsafe and reckless
driving practices with their friends in the car. The more of their friends,
the higher the risk (ironic, since that of course means that more people can
be hurt at once).

So, it might make sense to permit a teenager to carry only one passenger at
a time. Fine for dates, doesn't work very well for "partying" with multiple
friends in remote locations. Reducing the potential number of passengers to
one will go a long way to reducing the overall risk. Interestingly, the
Sport Pilot certificate now provides an FAA-approved way to codify this
policy, and as a bonus will allow a child to become a full-fledged pilot at
reduced expense.

Finally, of course, I think that any friends taken along flying should only
be permitted to go along if their parents have been consulted and approve.

Of course, some teenagers shouldn't ever be permitted alone in an airplane,
while others have been ready for that responsibility long before they are
old enough to qualify for the pilot certificate. All the above starts with
knowing the difference. :)

Pete

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?

I think it's a question you should be asking your insurance agent. Just to get
some idea of the costs. If it's going to triple your insurance, you might want
to break the news gently (or postpone it as long as possible?).

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Jay Honeck]

> I think it's a question you should be asking your insurance agent. Just to
> get
> some idea of the costs. If it's going to triple your insurance, you might
> want
> to break the news gently (or postpone it as long as possible?).

Mary already did. It will cost less to insure him in the plane than it will
in the car -- believe it or not.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Slick]

Think about it, in a plane your flying for a passion, in a car you're
driving to get somewhere. That's one reason accidents happen. Another, in a
plane we are thoroughly, very thoroughly trained, as to in a car you receive
just 3 or 4 hours of formal driving training. Scary aint it.
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:uDvUd.9505$Ze3.1148@attbi_s51...
> > I think it's a question you should be asking your insurance agent. Just
to
> > get
> > some idea of the costs. If it's going to triple your insurance, you
might
> > want
> > to break the news gently (or postpone it as long as possible?).
>
> Mary already did. It will cost less to insure him in the plane than it
will
> in the car -- believe it or not.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>



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[Doofus]

> Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
> perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever
known.
> My 14-year-old son has 13 hours in his logbook, and can climb, descend and
> hold altitude, track a heading, determine the proper runway to land on,
and
> (I suspect) probably land the plane -- although I've never let him get
below
> 200 feet on final approach. To him, flying a light plane is no greater
> challenge than beating the latest Playstation game, and going for a plane
> ride is something he's done over 400 times in his short life...
>
> Thus, we hope he'll be taking flight lessons this summer, assuming all
goes
> well with his grades. He thinks he's ready, and I hope he earns his
glider
> rating before next school year starts.
>
> All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk
in
> until he quite innocently said:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"
>
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings
up
> a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you who
> own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you handle
> "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting him
take
> the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?
> --

It all depends on the maturity and responsibility of the person, and so
nobody can answer this question for you. As with any responsibility and
freedom given to kids, you start small and expand, building trust in small
steps. But never underestimate the potential stupidity of a teenager.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
>
> "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting him
take
> the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>

Apparently the insurance companies think he's a bigger risk in the truck
than the plane.

-cwk.

[Morgans]

"Doofus" > wrote> > --
>
> It all depends on the maturity and responsibility of the person, and so
> nobody can answer this question for you. As with any responsibility and
> freedom given to kids, you start small and expand, building trust in small
> steps. But never underestimate the potential stupidity of a teenager.
>
I'll have to go with that. Add responsibility slowly, building trust.
Still, it is all your call. My kids have made good choices throughout their
lives, and I have to attribute that to the values they grew up with.

I really did read something lately, that the dangerous driving group of
males between 18 and 25, is in large part due to their brain development.
This study said that the part of the brain that assesses risk, is not fully
developed until the age of 25.

My theory is that to help get them through that, you have to spell out
acceptable and unacceptable risks, situation, by situation, so they will not
have to think about making a decision, as it has already been discussed, and
made. You can never anticipate all of the situations, but you can come
close. That is really all that training comes down to, right?
--
Jim in NC

[houstondan]

what is there about your current situation that could possibly lead you
to believe you have not passed any possible option long ago?? unless
you can give him to the gypsies (they refused both of mine!) the boy is
just going to fly that plane and that's all there is to it. i'll bet
you still think of it as "your" airplane too, don't you? ha!

dan (congrats..sounds like you're doin fine)

[Casey Wilson]

> Thus, we hope he'll be taking flight lessons this summer, assuming all
> goes
> well with his grades. He thinks he's ready, and I hope he earns his
> glider rating before next school year starts.
>
> All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk
> in until he quite innocently said:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"
>
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings
> up a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you
> who own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you
> handle "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting
> him take the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?
> --
> Jay Honeck
>
Wow! What a conundrum. I doubt any of else can help much with
something as subjective as this. I'm not qualified to cite experiences. My
youngest is 38 and none of the four fly
I'm pretty sure you are level-headed enough to know whether your son is
or isn't the type that would say, "Hey! Watch this!" in order to impress a
peer. That's probably all you need to know. With as much stick time as he
has, I'm also pretty sure he doesn't relate Atlas to an X-Box.
Heeheehee, ain't daddying fun?

[mindenpilot]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
> All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk
> in until he quite innocently said:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"

LOL!
My wife and I got a kick out of this!
But, seriously, I let my 6.5 year old fly all the time.
I don't let her take off or land, but she can do steep turns almost by
herself (she's not quite strong enough to keep enough back pressure).
She held a heading from Sacramento to Lake Tahoe.
I can't wait until *she* wants to take a date for a ride in the plane...
Wait...yes I can!

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"

No. You take dates to the roller rink, where they have signs up that say: No
Heavy Petting.


>I mean, it's not quite the same as letting him take the pickup down to the
>corner grocery...

In that purple gasoline tanker?? <g>

I bet many more answers to your questions will be revealed the closer he
gets to soloing.


Montblack

[Denny]

heh, heh, heh... This is hysterically funny (old dad type, sons and
daughter)...

OK, you've had a ton of well reasoned advice... Now I will give you the
the real life pearl, here...
DISABLE THE AUTO PILOT!

cheers ... denny

[Jay Honeck]

> I can't wait until *she* wants to take a date for a ride in the plane...
> Wait...yes I can!

Yeah, right behind my boy is my 11-year old daughter.

Thus far, she has shown little interest in flying -- but that could change .
Then I'll have TWO problems to deal with...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> In that purple gasoline tanker?? <g>

Hmm. Good point. That truck probably IS way more dangerous than the plane.

;-)

> I bet many more answers to your questions will be revealed the closer he
> gets to soloing.

No doubt. But will my heart be up to the stress?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"

Breathe easy Jay, he'll have to be 17 before he can take his date in Atlas,
so that will give you a little more time to worry. He and his date will
have to practice in the glider for a year. Unless of course, his date is
his instructor!

Seriously, I'd worry more about the instructor that you and your family
choose for your son. I'd look for a well seasoned type that has sucseffuly
taught plenty of young impressionable zero time teenagers. Experiance with
teaching specifically young people to fly will be invaluable. Mood swings,
lack of motivation, clouded thinking, zoneing out, forgetting appointments
are all things that every instructor has to deal with, but with teenagers
they all happen much more frequently. A patient, caring, and understanding
instructor will be a must!

If you can find one that also is an A&P that can put your son to work around
the shop to help earn his flying time, all the better. The more experiance
around airplanes, not just Atlas, the better. He'd get a very good
understanding about why you don't do this or do that while flying from
seeing the insides of some of the local planes.

The seriousness of the potential consiquences of inapproriate actions must
be instilled deeply into a young pilots mind. I know one father CFI that
was teaching his son to fly. He was very serious about never getting the
airplane in any unsafe condition. One day after his son skidded around the
corner of death while turning base to final and behind the power curve, the
father announced "Great, you just killed us." On the ground he explained
the problem, what and why it happened, then told his son to type up a
funeral announcement for both of them and to show it to his mother. When
his mother asked why they were dead, his father made the son explain it to
the mother. Sometimes getting through the thick know it all skull of a
teenager requires drastic or dramatic methods. Find an instructor that will
do what ever it takes to make your son a safe pilot. Once he get's his
ticket, demand frequent recurrent training. Someday he'll be in the left
seat, his girl in the right, and mom and dad in the back.

Jim

[Bob Chilcoat]

Jay,

Others have talked about the insurance and liability issues. This is my
view from a slightly different perspective:

If his instructor and the FAA think he's ready to be a real pilot and take
passengers, then he's probably ready. Let him go. My father, a long time
Air Force pilot (http://users.erols.com/viewptmd/Dad.html) never wanted any
of his kids (3 boys) to fly. We all ended up getting our tickets, although
our youngest brother got his glider ticket only (and the only one who did it
with Dad's acquiesence and support), and I waited nearly too long. Even so,
Dad tried to discourage me from getting my license at 56. I was "too old"
by then. He died two weeks before I soloed.

I think Dad never was able to decouple in his mind our adolescent
irresponsibility from the maturity we all eventually developed. He just
assumed that we were still the goofy, dangerous teenagers he suffered with
when we were young. Too bad. Never being able to let go was always a block
to our developing much more than an adversarial relationship with him. He
was even trying to run our lives from his bed the last couple of years of
his life.

Don't let this sort of thing happen with you and your kids. Get them the
best training they can have. Let them experience as much of life as you
can, while you're still able to have some modicum of control. Show them how
to live a full and responsible life. Prepare them for complete independence
from you, and then let them go. They're going to go eventually anyway,
whether you want them to or not, so you might as well prepare them the best
you can first. You'll find that they come back as great friends.

I am reminded of a story Susan Stamberg related on NPR one time. A woman
had just helped her daughter move into her first college dorm. They said
goodby, and as the woman prepared to head back home, she sat in the car and
watched her daughter walk back into the dorm. With tears in her eyes, she
whispered after her daughter, "OK, now fly."
--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
> Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
> perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever
known.
> My 14-year-old son has 13 hours in his logbook, and can climb, descend and
> hold altitude, track a heading, determine the proper runway to land on,
and
> (I suspect) probably land the plane -- although I've never let him get
below
> 200 feet on final approach. To him, flying a light plane is no greater
> challenge than beating the latest Playstation game, and going for a plane
> ride is something he's done over 400 times in his short life...
>
> Thus, we hope he'll be taking flight lessons this summer, assuming all
goes
> well with his grades. He thinks he's ready, and I hope he earns his
glider
> rating before next school year starts.
>
> All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk
in
> until he quite innocently said:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"
>
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings
up
> a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you who
> own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you handle
> "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting him
take
> the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

Are you afraid for your airplane or your child or the cost? Or all three?
In one sentence you are positive about the idea of him taking flying
lessons. In another you are worried about him using your airplane to go
flying in. I'm a long way from facing this issue as my children are 7, but
I think that I will either trust their judgement or not. If I trust their
judgement, they can use the airplane. I don't know how I will handle the
cost. On one hand, you don't want to provide them with thousands of dollars
to fly around and impress their friends, but on the other, you want them to
be competent and they can't be without flying frequently. 16yr olds can't
afford to pay for much flying and I'd rather have them do well in school.

I would be particularly concerned about flying dates. There is too much
potential for distraction.

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
> Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
> perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever
> known. My 14-year-old son has 13 hours in his logbook, and can climb,
> descend and hold altitude, track a heading, determine the proper runway to
> land on, and (I suspect) probably land the plane -- although I've never
> let him get below 200 feet on final approach. To him, flying a light
> plane is no greater challenge than beating the latest Playstation game,
> and going for a plane ride is something he's done over 400 times in his
> short life...
>
> Thus, we hope he'll be taking flight lessons this summer, assuming all
> goes well with his grades. He thinks he's ready, and I hope he earns his
> glider rating before next school year starts.
>
> All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk
> in until he quite innocently said:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"
>
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings
> up a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you
> who own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you
> handle "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting
> him take the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bob Chilcoat]

The Grape carries more gas. Bigger explosive potential.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Apparently the insurance companies think he's a bigger risk in the truck
> than the plane.

[jsmith]

Hmmm... which is safer.... flying Atlas or driving the Grape?

[Margy Natalie]

I wish I had your problems Jay! My daughter won't fly unless it's to somewhere
fun. My son can't get a medical. I will tell you I know one guy who solo'd
when he was 16 and his parents would let him fly anywhere, but he couldn't have
the car on Saturday night! Another friend got a call from the school principal
(this was probably 30 years ago) that their child had endangered the lives of a
number of students by going off and stealing a plane and .... it went on for
quite a while. The parents informed the principal that their child was a
certificated pilot and didn't steal anything as he was allowed to use the plane
whenever he wanted and that no one was in any danger at any time. When the kid
got home his parents informed him if he ever cut school to go to the beach again
in the plane he wasn't to be so stupid as to take along kids who would talk
about it.

Margy

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
> perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever known.
> My 14-year-old son has 13 hours in his logbook, and can climb, descend and
> hold altitude, track a heading, determine the proper runway to land on, and
> (I suspect) probably land the plane -- although I've never let him get below
> 200 feet on final approach. To him, flying a light plane is no greater
> challenge than beating the latest Playstation game, and going for a plane
> ride is something he's done over 400 times in his short life...
>
> Thus, we hope he'll be taking flight lessons this summer, assuming all goes
> well with his grades. He thinks he's ready, and I hope he earns his glider
> rating before next school year starts.
>
> All well and good, but the magnitude of this endeavor had truly not sunk in
> until he quite innocently said:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"
>
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I just laughed -- but this brings up
> a serious point that I've never seen addressed here. For those of you who
> own aircraft, and have kids that have learned to fly, how did you handle
> "borrowing the plane"? I mean, it's not quite the same as letting him take
> the pickup down to the corner grocery...
>
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[CryptWolf]

"Slick" > wrote in message ...
> Think about it, in a plane your flying for a passion, in a car you're
> driving to get somewhere. That's one reason accidents happen. Another, in
a
> plane we are thoroughly, very thoroughly trained, as to in a car you
receive
> just 3 or 4 hours of formal driving training. Scary aint it.

Actually, I had a driving instructor who was telling us the opposite.
It was something like 36 hours in the car for driving school way back
when I "learned to drive". I had already been driving a lot with my
parents.

In that light, assuming it is still the same, it may be less time to
get a sport pilot certificate depending on the individual.

You have to ride a motorcycle to find out how many are really
out to get you.

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> "Just think, Dad, in two years I'll be able to take a date out in the
> plane!"

Ok, I've given it some thought. Perhaps you could buy something cheaper and fun
to fly? Maybe a Champ? Then let him take that up when he gets ready.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[jsmith]

I believe the correct saying is: "Here, hold my beer and watch this!"

Casey Wilson wrote:
> Wow! What a conundrum. I doubt any of else can help much with
> something as subjective as this. I'm not qualified to cite experiences. My
> youngest is 38 and none of the four fly
> I'm pretty sure you are level-headed enough to know whether your son is
> or isn't the type that would say, "Hey! Watch this!" in order to impress a
> peer. That's probably all you need to know. With as much stick time as he
> has, I'm also pretty sure he doesn't relate Atlas to an X-Box.
> Heeheehee, ain't daddying fun?

[jsmith]

Sounds like a job for Rick Durden.

Jim Burns wrote:
> Breathe easy Jay, he'll have to be 17 before he can take his date in Atlas,
> so that will give you a little more time to worry. He and his date will
> have to practice in the glider for a year. Unless of course, his date is
> his instructor!

[jsmith]

Jay's worried he is going to get even less PIC time.

Mike Rapoport wrote:
> Are you afraid for your airplane or your child or the cost? Or all three?

[Jay Honeck]

> Ok, I've given it some thought. Perhaps you could buy something cheaper
> and fun
> to fly? Maybe a Champ? Then let him take that up when he gets ready.

Actually, an Ercoupe comes to mind. Cheap, fun, and stall-proof.

AND you can fly with the "top down"...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay's worried he is going to get even less PIC time.

Augh! I hadn't even *thought* of that...

:-(

Oh, well. The bright side is that when I'm old and fat and my blood
pressure is off the scale, and my medical is a distant memory, I'll still be
flying around in the right seat...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The Grape carries more gas. Bigger explosive potential.

Nope. The Grape carries 55 gallons in the transfer tank, and 15 in the
vehicle's gas tank.

Atlas carries 84 gallons...

Of course, the odds of something hitting the plane are probably less.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Don't let this sort of thing happen with you and your kids. Get them the
> best training they can have. Let them experience as much of life as you
> can, while you're still able to have some modicum of control. Show them
> how
> to live a full and responsible life. Prepare them for complete
> independence
> from you, and then let them go. They're going to go eventually anyway,
> whether you want them to or not, so you might as well prepare them the
> best
> you can first. You'll find that they come back as great friends.

Great words, Bob. Thanks.

I just have a hard time looking at my 14 year old son with an unjaundiced
eye. One minute he's the bright kid that has tested into the top 2% in the
nation -- and the next minute he's dumb as a box of rocks. And it's a roll
of the dice as to which "version" you might get at any given time.

Putting him in a plane, solo, with such wild intellectual variability is
going to be more challenging for me than for him, I'm sure. I'm trusting
that the training process will be a real maturing experience.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Capt.Doug]

>"Jay Honeck" wrote in message > Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?

He'll solo and have a year to establish his maturity before he takes
passengers up. You'll make sure he doesn't venture past the practice area
because he probably can't afford to buy enough gas for a cross-country. One
day you will have to let him out of the nest. All you can do is teach him
right from wrong and hope for the best.

Just this week, I was walking past a Super Cub and just stopped. The
registration hit me hard because it was the plane I soloed in so many years
ago in my 16th year. It isn't new and pretty anymore but it has floats and a
GPS now. When it was new and pretty, the owner made me a deal. If I kept it
clean and maintained, and filled it up after using it, I could fly it
whenever I wanted to. The owner put a lot of faith and trust in me. Looking
back in my mind as I viewed that Cub the other day, it occurred to me when
the owner put his faith and trust into me, he helped shape me into the man I
became.

D.

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> I just have a hard time looking at my 14 year old son with an unjaundiced
> eye. One minute he's the bright kid that has tested into the top 2% in the
> nation -- and the next minute he's dumb as a box of rocks. And it's a roll
> of the dice as to which "version" you might get at any given time.
>
> Putting him in a plane, solo, with such wild intellectual variability is
> going to be more challenging for me than for him, I'm sure. I'm trusting
> that the training process will be a real maturing experience.

Don't put all your trust in the training process. More likely than not,
you're son will fluctuate back and forth between bright and "dumb as a box
of rocks" all the way into his late teens, if not early twenties.

My daughter turned out great, and is now a productive part of a society
with a college education and a good job, but when she was in her teens...
that was a different story. No matter how much you love them, and want to
"trust their judgement", the fact is that they're not finished developing,
and they make A LOT of wrong decisions. Do you want your son making those
wrong decisions at 5000 feet in your precious 235?

--- Jay

--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Jay Honeck]

> My daughter turned out great, and is now a productive part of a society
> with a college education and a good job, but when she was in her teens...
> that was a different story. No matter how much you love them, and want to
> "trust their judgement", the fact is that they're not finished developing,
> and they make A LOT of wrong decisions. Do you want your son making those
> wrong decisions at 5000 feet in your precious 235?

Ah, yes -- therein lies the rub.

It's going to be an interesting decade, methinks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Just this week, I was walking past a Super Cub and just stopped. The
> registration hit me hard because it was the plane I soloed in so many
> years
> ago in my 16th year. It isn't new and pretty anymore but it has floats and
> a
> GPS now. When it was new and pretty, the owner made me a deal. If I kept
> it
> clean and maintained, and filled it up after using it, I could fly it
> whenever I wanted to. The owner put a lot of faith and trust in me.

Great story.

I can't imagine that happening nowadays (outside of a family) -- but perhaps
I'm wrong?

I hope I am.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > The Grape carries more gas. Bigger explosive potential.
>
> Nope. The Grape carries 55 gallons in the transfer tank, and 15 in the
> vehicle's gas tank.
>
> Atlas carries 84 gallons...

Of course, if you keep the tanks full, the potential for explosion is pretty low
in either.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
> Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
> perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever
known.
....
> Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?

Yeah...but my "kid" is 23 on the 19th of this month.

Matt B.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:sM_Ud.20028$r55.3655@attbi_s52...
>
> > GPS now. When it was new and pretty, the owner made me a deal. If I kept
> > it
> > clean and maintained, and filled it up after using it, I could fly it
> > whenever I wanted to. The owner put a lot of faith and trust in me.
>
> Great story.
>
> I can't imagine that happening nowadays (outside of a family) -- but
perhaps
> I'm wrong?
>
> I hope I am.

I've known a few younger folks I'd trust with my 172, but I'm not sure that
I'd trust their parents' lawyers should anything unfortunate happen...

-cwk.

[Eric Rood]

Gosh Margie, that sounds almost like what happened to my father 60 some
years ago. He and a buddy cut class and buzzed the high school one fine
Spring day (yes, it was during WWII).

Margy Natalie wrote:
> I wish I had your problems Jay! My daughter won't fly unless it's to somewhere
> fun. My son can't get a medical. I will tell you I know one guy who solo'd
> when he was 16 and his parents would let him fly anywhere, but he couldn't have
> the car on Saturday night! Another friend got a call from the school principal
> (this was probably 30 years ago) that their child had endangered the lives of a
> number of students by going off and stealing a plane and .... it went on for
> quite a while. The parents informed the principal that their child was a
> certificated pilot and didn't steal anything as he was allowed to use the plane
> whenever he wanted and that no one was in any danger at any time. When the kid
> got home his parents informed him if he ever cut school to go to the beach again
> in the plane he wasn't to be so stupid as to take along kids who would talk
> about it.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Jay Honeck" wrote in message > I can't imagine that happening nowadays
>(outside of a family) -- but perhaps I'm wrong?

I never really figured it out either, but he had the nicest, cleanest
airplane on the whole ramp.

D.

[Jay Honeck]

> Gosh Margie, that sounds almost like what happened to my father 60 some
> years ago. He and a buddy cut class and buzzed the high school one fine
> Spring day (yes, it was during WWII).

I didn't think the Feds allowed casual GA during World War II?

Good thing they didn't have Stingers back then...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[jsmith]

Let's see, you have the basics of a flight data recorder already...
GPS will log the flight track and total time, allowing you to calculate
average speed.
EDM-700 graphic engine monitor allows you to download the previous
flight(s) engine operation data allowing you to determine exceedences
and engine start/stops.
What are you missing"
A remotely mounted digital video recorder with audio input from the
intercom, that begins recording when the master is switched on.
What are you worried about?

[Denny]

There are worse problems in life than that!

denny

************************************************
you'll need another plane?

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:BSuUd.70922$tl3.52178@attbi_s02...
> Mary and I have tried very hard to treat flying as an uncommon -- but
> perfectly normal -- family activity, and that's all my kids have ever
known.

Hey, here's another idea- find an aerobatic instructor who'll give him a
good workout in a Champ. You're never going to shut off the thrill-seeking
portion of his brain completely but you can try to provide a structured
outlet for it. It'll make a better airman of him and teach him what the
edges of the envelope really look like.

-cwk.

[Bob Chilcoat]

Actually, that's what I did with my kids when it came to driving. Our
daughter, who was the wild one in the family, was driving like a maniac and
wouldn't listen to anyone, including her brothers, about slowing down. I
eventually decided that if she wouldn't drive responsibly, at least I should
get her some real skills so that she was less likely to kill herself or
someone else. I took her up to Lime Rock Raceway and she took the Skip
Barber advanced driving course. All day learning how to spin out a car, get
maximum braking without ABS ("threshold braking"), getting absolutely
everything out of a car when you need it to get out of trouble, and how to
recover from unusual attitudes (like sideways on dry pavement). She had a
great time, and actually began to drive much more responsibly after that.
The best $500 I ever spent. I was so impressed I took both her brothers to
the same course. They have each said that the skills they learned have
enabled them to get out of really bad situations on several occasions.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> Hey, here's another idea- find an aerobatic instructor who'll give him a
> good workout in a Champ. You're never going to shut off the thrill-seeking
> portion of his brain completely but you can try to provide a structured
> outlet for it. It'll make a better airman of him and teach him what the
> edges of the envelope really look like.
>
> -cwk.
>
>

[Roger]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:55:45 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

Hmmm... Contributing to the delinquency of a minor, named in a
paternity case... Any port in a storm...

Man, what a machine for going on a date! Far more impressive than a
convertible and above the sports car on the testosterone meter.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?

[Montblack]

("Roger" wrote)
>>Do you guys let your kids fly your plane?

> Man, what a machine for going on a date! Far more impressive than a
> convertible and above the sports car on the testosterone meter.


Oddly enough, even without a plane in high school, I was able to make my
dates throw up :-)

Be very afraid of the ones throwing up 3 months "after" the date.


Montblack

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:31:45 -0500, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:

>I took her up to Lime Rock Raceway and she took the Skip
>Barber advanced driving course.

I never had the money for such a course, but when I was a fresh faced
driver, I took the family wagon out one night during a slippery
snowstorm and practiced skids and skid recovery. It was instructive
to learn that when you stomp on the brakes and lock up the wheels,
steering input quits working. I would center myself on the road and
stomp on the brakes, then I discovered that I could (and did) spin the
steering wheel from lock to opposite lock with no change in direction
of the car. But if I lifted off the brakes while the wheel was locked
to one side, the car would instantly regain steering and lurch towards
the curb. Very instructive.

I was in no danger of hitting anything because I did not do this with
cars around and the streets were pretty wide and I did not need to go
very fast to skid. The lessons I learned that night have stayed with
me for 43 years. A locked up tire has no traction, nor can it be
steered. That's why ABS works, it prevents total lockup.

It was very smart of you to treat them to the Skip Barber course.

Corky Scott

[jsmith]

Static friction vice dynamic friction

Corky Scott wrote:
> I never had the money for such a course, but when I was a fresh faced
> driver, I took the family wagon out one night during a slippery
> snowstorm and practiced skids and skid recovery. It was instructive
> to learn that when you stomp on the brakes and lock up the wheels,
> steering input quits working. I would center myself on the road and
> stomp on the brakes, then I discovered that I could (and did) spin the
> steering wheel from lock to opposite lock with no change in direction
> of the car. But if I lifted off the brakes while the wheel was locked
> to one side, the car would instantly regain steering and lurch towards
> the curb. Very instructive.
> I was in no danger of hitting anything because I did not do this with
> cars around and the streets were pretty wide and I did not need to go
> very fast to skid. The lessons I learned that night have stayed with
> me for 43 years. A locked up tire has no traction, nor can it be
> steered. That's why ABS works, it prevents total lockup.
> It was very smart of you to treat them to the Skip Barber course.

[Morgans]

"Corky Scott" > wrote

> I never had the money for such a course, but when I was a fresh faced
> driver, I took the family wagon out one night during a slippery
> snowstorm and practiced skids and skid recovery.

My father did the same with me, and I did the same with my two children.
Some thing are difficult to learn, without those slippery parking lots.
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
>> I never had the money for such a course, but when I was a fresh faced
>> driver, I took the family wagon out one night during a slippery
>> snowstorm and practiced skids and skid recovery.
>
> My father did the same with me, and I did the same with my two children.
> Some thing are difficult to learn, without those slippery parking lots.


And two generations of teenage learners have omitted mentioning, to the
owner of the family car, the part about sliding sideways onto "the dry
patch." BTDT...


Montblack

[Jay Honeck]

> And two generations of teenage learners have omitted mentioning, to the
> owner of the family car, the part about sliding sideways onto "the dry
> patch." BTDT...

Heh. I tore BOTH rear tires off the rims of my Mom's 1968 Pontiac LeMans by
sliding sideways onto a dry patch.

I put the spare tire on one side, threw the flat tire in the trunk, and
called my Dad to explain that "I've got a flat tire, and the spare is flat!"

It worked.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Montblack wrote:
>
> And two generations of teenage learners have omitted mentioning, to the
> owner of the family car, the part about sliding sideways onto "the dry
> patch." BTDT...

I never did that, but I did slide the VW into a curb. Several months later, it
started making "a noise" and my father took it in to the dealer. They discovered
a bent front axle. An *expensive* bent axle.

"No, Papa, I have no idea how that happened."

Those cars were amazingly easy to hotwire.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote .
>
>
> And two generations of teenage learners have omitted mentioning, to the
> owner of the family car, the part about sliding sideways onto "the dry
> patch." BTDT...
>
>
> Montblack
>
I started driving a Corvair a couple years after I started driving. In my
beloved Pontiac, you could charge up to a turn, wail on the binders and
about slide around the corner, wet pavement, or no.

It didn't work that way with a Corvair. I charged up to a crossover
triangle on wet pavement, slammed on the brakes, turned the wheel and kept
going straight. Oops!. Blew a tire and bent the rim on the curb.

I managed to convince my dad that the tire went flat, and that's why I hit
the curb.

Moral of the story? On the rear engine cars, the front will break loose
before the rear end. Lesson learned!
--
Jim in NC

[Roger]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:52:44 -0500, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>
>"Corky Scott" > wrote
>
>> I never had the money for such a course, but when I was a fresh faced
>> driver, I took the family wagon out one night during a slippery
>> snowstorm and practiced skids and skid recovery.
>
>My father did the same with me, and I did the same with my two children.
>Some thing are difficult to learn, without those slippery parking lots.

Never had a learners permit, never took driver's training (wasn't
available anyway), and had a full license when I was 14. Parallel
parking was no problem after learning to back wagons into the barn.
Stick shift...No one had heard of an automatic back then.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jay Honeck]

> Never had a learners permit, never took driver's training (wasn't
> available anyway), and had a full license when I was 14. Parallel
> parking was no problem after learning to back wagons into the barn.
> Stick shift...No one had heard of an automatic back then.

Shhhh. Don't tell my son. I was appalled to learn that in Iowa you can
still get a driver's license at age 14 -- and he's 14 1/2.

Now, of course, in much of Iowa there's nothing to hit, so maybe letting
your boy bring the pickup out to the back forty doesn't harm anything. But
in the metropolitan areas, with freeways and congestion little different
from Chicago, allowing a 14 year old to drive is like giving him a stick of
real dynamite, IMHO.

And I know what *I* would have done with dynamite at 14...

So, we're sticking with what we grew up with in Wisconsin. He'll get his
permit at 15, and his license at 16.

But he'll be flying sooner.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Never had a learners permit, never took driver's training (wasn't
>>available anyway), and had a full license when I was 14. Parallel
>>parking was no problem after learning to back wagons into the barn.
>>Stick shift...No one had heard of an automatic back then.
>
>
> Shhhh. Don't tell my son. I was appalled to learn that in Iowa you can
> still get a driver's license at age 14 -- and he's 14 1/2.
>
> Now, of course, in much of Iowa there's nothing to hit, so maybe letting
> your boy bring the pickup out to the back forty doesn't harm anything. But
> in the metropolitan areas, with freeways and congestion little different
> from Chicago, allowing a 14 year old to drive is like giving him a stick of
> real dynamite, IMHO.
>
> And I know what *I* would have done with dynamite at 14...
>
> So, we're sticking with what we grew up with in Wisconsin. He'll get his
> permit at 15, and his license at 16.
>
> But he'll be flying sooner.

Same deal here. My oldest is 15. You can drive in Montana at 14 if
you're family is ranching, 15 for everybody else. He'll drive next fall
when he's 16. No way the average kid should be driving at 15.

[Roger]

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:20:20 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Never had a learners permit, never took driver's training (wasn't
>> available anyway), and had a full license when I was 14. Parallel
>> parking was no problem after learning to back wagons into the barn.
>> Stick shift...No one had heard of an automatic back then.
>
>Shhhh. Don't tell my son. I was appalled to learn that in Iowa you can
>still get a driver's license at age 14 -- and he's 14 1/2.
>
>Now, of course, in much of Iowa there's nothing to hit, so maybe letting
>your boy bring the pickup out to the back forty doesn't harm anything. But
>in the metropolitan areas, with freeways and congestion little different
>from Chicago, allowing a 14 year old to drive is like giving him a stick of
>real dynamite, IMHO.
>
>And I know what *I* would have done with dynamite at 14...

And now for a bit of topic drift...
It's really strange you should have mentioned that.

When I was 16 I was doing the dynamiting for a number of the local
farmers. I used to go up to the hardware store and purchase dynamyte
and caps by the case along with a big coil of fuse. Now days I doubt
I'd even qualify for a license even though I do still own the farm.

The two main targets were stumps and "erratics".

For those who aren't familiar with the term, erratics are rocks that
don't belong here. They probably came from some place up in Canada
courtesy of the Glaciers.

You'd think rocks wouldn't be a problem out here in the flat land
farming country, but every spring the tops of some big boulders will
work their way up high enough to catch a plow. Some can be dug out
and some are just way too big although we dug one out bigger than our
tractor. As I recall it took 4 tractors to skid that thing to the
stone pile. After that we just blew the tops off and covered them
back up.

A number of times I got caught short and had to ride the old Hog in
and pick up some more. Saddlebags full of dynamite and a box of caps
in my coat... and I still survived, but I sure do have some
stories<:-)) Times sure have changed!

I remember cleaning up an old site one time and finding about a half
dozen sticks in the bottom of a box. I don't know how many years it
had been there, or how many times it had frozen and thawed, BUT it was
laying in a pool of oil. (anyone over 40 knows what the oil was).

Cleaning that up (they didn't want to blow the building) was one of
the most tense jobs I've done.

>
>So, we're sticking with what we grew up with in Wisconsin. He'll get his
>permit at 15, and his license at 16.

Like any other endevour, it depends on the individual. I know many a
youngster I'd trust farther than some adults.

OTOH I know some adults and kids alike that I'd not trust at all.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>But he'll be flying sooner.

[Jay Honeck]

> When I was 16 I was doing the dynamiting for a number of the local
> farmers. I used to go up to the hardware store and purchase dynamyte
> and caps by the case along with a big coil of fuse.

Roger, you have certainly led one adventuresome life. Sometimes it's
almost like you're from another planet.

Imagine -- letting a 16 year old play with dynamite! It boggles the mind.

Times really *are* different.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Imagine -- letting a 16 year old play with dynamite! It boggles the mind.

He wasn't *playing* with dynamite. He was *working* with dynamite. Big
difference.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[John E. Carty]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>> Imagine -- letting a 16 year old play with dynamite! It boggles the
>> mind.
>
> He wasn't *playing* with dynamite. He was *working* with dynamite. Big
> difference.
>
> George Patterson
> I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.


Once it starts sweating nitro I wouldn't do either :-)

[George Patterson]

"John E. Carty" wrote:
>
> Once it starts sweating nitro I wouldn't do either :-)

I agree. My first thought when I read that was that I would be covering that
stuff with sawdust or some other stabilizer before doing anything else. I've not
had any first-hand experience with it, though.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Morgans]

"Roger" > wrote

> I remember cleaning up an old site one time and finding about a half
> dozen sticks in the bottom of a box. I don't know how many years it
> had been there, or how many times it had frozen and thawed, BUT it was
> laying in a pool of oil. (anyone over 40 knows what the oil was).

At least you were not likely to die of a heart attack, at that point in
time!
--
Jim in NC

[Corky Scott]

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:26:18 -0500, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>It didn't work that way with a Corvair. I charged up to a crossover
>triangle on wet pavement, slammed on the brakes, turned the wheel and kept
>going straight. Oops!. Blew a tire and bent the rim on the curb.
>
>I managed to convince my dad that the tire went flat, and that's why I hit
>the curb.
>
>Moral of the story? On the rear engine cars, the front will break loose
>before the rear end. Lesson learned!

Don't think the placement of the engine had anything to do with it,
it's more the type of brakes (drum or disc) and the amount of bias
they are given by the brake system. Typically, drums tend to lock up
more easily than discs and also are subject to fade, something most
disc brakes are relatively immune to. Since most of the braking
occurs at the front end due to weight transfer, the front brakes are
normally bigger and more capable of handling braking loads.

Normally the designers of the braking systems want the fronts to
lockup before the rears, because that is a more stable situation than
having the rears lockup first.

Corky Scott

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > Imagine -- letting a 16 year old play with dynamite! It boggles the
mind.
>
> He wasn't *playing* with dynamite. He was *working* with dynamite. Big
> difference.

A lot of 17 year olds "played" with explosives....in the military. They (the
military) call them "hand grenades".

[Bob Chilcoat]

I had a similar experience when I was 18. I had driven a busload of
(slightly younger) teenagers up to an old abandoned mine site in Colorado,
and was waiting with a couple of other drivers to take them back. We
noticed a small shed set into a hillside a long way from the mine entrance.
Curious, we walked over and noticed that the door was locked. We
immediately figured that this was a blasing magazine, so (being immortal
teenagers) we looked for a way in.

After a few minutes, I realized that by standing on the hillside, I could
lift up the whole roof. Of course I did, moved it to one side, and jumped
down into the shed. I found at lease 15 cases of dynamite (but no caps, for
obvious reasons) in various states of decay. The bottom row had rotted and
there was a lot of that funny "oil" running around. I'm probably very lucky
that I didn't land on any of the "oil" when I jumped in. At any rate, I
very carefully climbed back out, put the roof back on, and we tiptoed away.

When we got back to the camp I was working in, we called the sheriff and
told him what we'd found (of course the roof had already been pulled to one
side in our story). I understand that he sent someone up there and blew the
whole load up. Unfortunately we didn't get to watch. :-)

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>
> I remember cleaning up an old site one time and finding about a half
> dozen sticks in the bottom of a box. I don't know how many years it
> had been there, or how many times it had frozen and thawed, BUT it was
> laying in a pool of oil. (anyone over 40 knows what the oil was).
>

[Montblack]

("Bob Chilcoat" wrote)
<snip>
>I had a similar experience when I was 18. I had driven a busload of
> (slightly younger) teenagers up to an old abandoned mine site in Colorado,
> and was waiting with a couple of other drivers to take them back. We
> noticed a small shed set into a hillside a long way from the mine
> entrance.
> Curious, we walked over and noticed that the door was locked. We
> immediately figured that this was a blasing magazine, so (being immortal
> teenagers) we looked for a way in.


Your story reads like a Hardy Boys book. :-)

http://hardyboys.bobfinnan.com/hbart.htm
(Hardy Boys book cover art)


Montblack

[Montblack]

("Roger" wrote)
<good stuff snipped>
> When I was 16 I was doing the dynamiting for a number of the local
> farmers. I used to go up to the hardware store and purchase dynamyte
> and caps by the case along with a big coil of fuse. Now days I doubt
> I'd even qualify for a license even though I do still own the farm.


1990 was the last time I got to play with the fun stuff. Only it was the
(modern) tube of pink caulk looking stuff. I was delivering bulk farm
fertilizer at the time.

Fertilizer raw indgredients were piled up15 ft high in big three sided (20'
x 40') concrete bins. The fertilizer would get hard after sitting a few
weeks. We'd climb the piles, drill four or five holes, slip in the charges
and blast. Then the monster loader would scoop up the chunks and deliver
them to the mixing station. Pretty safe - except breathing the air!

We had a "super safe" OSHA rated box for storing the pink "boom" "boom"
stuff. I've forgotten the trade name for the explosive tube packs we used.

Again, pretty tame experience on my end - not like I was tooling around with
blasting caps strapped to my waist <g>.


Montblack
"It blow'd up. It blow'd up real good"

[Bob Chilcoat]

Blasing piles of fertilizer can be dangerous! Look up the explosion in
Oppau, Germany in 1921.

"About 7:30 a.m. on September 21, 1921, two powerful explosions occurred at
the
BASF plant in Oppau, Germany. The explosions destroyed the plant and
approximately 700 nearby houses, and killed 430 persons.

The explosions occurred as blasting powder was being used to break up
storage
piles of a 50/50 mixture of ammonium sulphate and ammonium nitrate. This
procedure had previously been used 16,000 times without mishap. About 4,500
tons of the mixture were involved in the explosion, which created a crater
250
feet in diameter and 50 feet deep."

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Roger" wrote)
> <good stuff snipped>
> > When I was 16 I was doing the dynamiting for a number of the local
> > farmers. I used to go up to the hardware store and purchase dynamyte
> > and caps by the case along with a big coil of fuse. Now days I doubt
> > I'd even qualify for a license even though I do still own the farm.
>
>
> 1990 was the last time I got to play with the fun stuff. Only it was the
> (modern) tube of pink caulk looking stuff. I was delivering bulk farm
> fertilizer at the time.
>
> Fertilizer raw indgredients were piled up15 ft high in big three sided
(20'
> x 40') concrete bins. The fertilizer would get hard after sitting a few
> weeks. We'd climb the piles, drill four or five holes, slip in the charges
> and blast. Then the monster loader would scoop up the chunks and deliver
> them to the mixing station. Pretty safe - except breathing the air!
>
> We had a "super safe" OSHA rated box for storing the pink "boom" "boom"
> stuff. I've forgotten the trade name for the explosive tube packs we used.
>
> Again, pretty tame experience on my end - not like I was tooling around
with
> blasting caps strapped to my waist <g>.
>
>
> Montblack
> "It blow'd up. It blow'd up real good"
>

[Dan Youngquist]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Newps wrote:

> No way the average kid should be driving at 15.

These days, you're right. But back when the law was made, the "average
kid" was a lot more mature and responsible than they are now. Makes one
give some thought to what's changed, and how one might influence kids to
be more like they would've been in the old days, in those respects.

-Dan

[Montblack]

("Bob Chilcoat" wrote)
> Blasing piles of fertilizer can be dangerous! Look up the explosion in
> Oppau, Germany in 1921.
>
> "About 7:30 a.m. on September 21, 1921, two powerful explosions occurred
> at
> the
> BASF plant in Oppau, Germany. The explosions destroyed the plant and
> approximately 700 nearby houses, and killed 430 persons.


This fertilizer plant was in North Minneapolis. There was a 1940's
neighborhood around the plant. If she went up, I suspect it might have made
the news.

I left mostly because of the chemicals and dust in the air. I did miss the
farm deliveries though.


Montblack

[Bob Chilcoat]

The mine was (IIRC) in or near the ghost town of Hancock. (N38 38.389',
W106 21.408') West of Buena Vista.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd like to know where this mine site was in Colorado - mine
> was in SW Colorado and I was age 14 IIRC.
>

[Morgans]

"Corky Scott" <

>
> Don't think the placement of the engine had anything to do with it,
> it's more the type of brakes (drum or disc) and the amount of bias
> they are given by the brake system.

True, bias counts, but the 'vair was very light in the front.


> Normally the designers of the braking systems want the fronts to
> lockup before the rears, because that is a more stable situation than
> having the rears lockup first.

Man, I would rather have the front still steering. Just me.
--
Jim in NC