report runway incursion non-towered airport?

[Joe Johnson]

Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
pattern.

The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.

I saw the Citation taxiing toward the active as I was downwind. I watched
the plane carefully (suspiciously) as there was never any transmission on
the CTAF frequency. I listened to departure on my second radio; he/she
wasn't on that frequency either. When I turned base, the Citation was at
the hold short line adjacent to the active threshold. As I was on 1/4 to
1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a 360,
landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.

Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say "boo"
before taking an active runway?

We all see lots of idiot drivers on the road. I used to think aviation was
different, both because the training is more rigorous and because the stakes
are so much higher. With all the idiotic and careless mistakes I read about
in NTSB accident reports, I'm beginning to wonder.

Thanks for reading--I'm a little less upset after having written this down.

[nrp]

Report it to the FAA. That's the only way to get to these SOBs that
don't look outside and/or talk.

[Jay Honeck]

> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.

Hmmm. Must be a rash of Citation-itis. On Thursday I had a similar thing
happen, in Muscatine, IA .

The wind was calm, but had recently favored Rwy 24 -- so that's the runway
we chose. (I believe it's the calm-wind runway of choice in MUT as well.)

I had just finished my run-up, and had announced that I was taking the
runway for departure when a Citation pilot announced that HE was departing
on the reciprocal runway, Rwy 06! In fact, squinting into the sun I could
see that he was already sitting on the runway, facing me, way down at the
other end, over a mile away.

He had never said "boo" until that point, and his radio transmissions were
VERY weak. Dunno if he was having trouble with the radio, or whether he
simply hadn't announced, but there we sat on the runway, like opposing cars
in a demolition derby.

He then somewhat sheepishly asked if I would mind letting him go first, as
he had a clearance delivery time he had to meet. Not being in any
particular hurry, I rolled back onto the taxiway, but it was a very
unusual -- and potentially disastrous -- situation that ended well.

All I can say is: I'm glad *I* announced.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

so.. Tell us the N number. Inquiring minds wanting to know and all...

[George Patterson]

Joe Johnson wrote:
>
> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say "boo"
> before taking an active runway?

I don't know how to report it, but if a pilot has that sort of attitude, he does
not deserve to hold a commercial certificate. It's possible that he/she was on
the wrong frequency, but I think a chat with the Feds is in order.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Jay Honeck]

> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.

Hmmm. Must be a rash of Citation-itis. On Thursday I had a similar thing
happen, in Muscatine, IA .

The wind was calm, but had recently favored Rwy 24 -- so that's the runway
we chose. (I believe it's the calm-wind runway of choice in MUT as well.)

I had just finished my run-up, and had announced that I was taking the
runway for departure when a Citation pilot announced that HE was departing
on the reciprocal runway, Rwy 06! In fact, squinting into the sun I could
see that he was already sitting on the runway, facing me, way down at the
other end, over a mile away.

He had never said "boo" until that point, and his radio transmissions were
VERY weak. Dunno if he was having trouble with the radio, or whether he
simply hadn't announced, but there we sat on the runway, like opposing cars
in a demolition derby.

He then somewhat sheepishly asked if I would mind letting him go first, as
he had a clearance delivery time he had to meet. Not being in any
particular hurry, I rolled back onto the taxiway, but it was a very
unusual -- and potentially disastrous -- situation that ended well.

All I can say is: I'm glad *I* announced.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[aluckyguess]

That's what I was thinking wrong frequency.
"George Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Joe Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
>> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say
>> "boo"
>> before taking an active runway?
>
> I don't know how to report it, but if a pilot has that sort of attitude,
> he does
> not deserve to hold a commercial certificate. It's possible that he/she
> was on
> the wrong frequency, but I think a chat with the Feds is in order.
>
> George Patterson
> I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
> untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
> pattern.
>
> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.
>
> I saw the Citation taxiing toward the active as I was downwind. I watched
> the plane carefully (suspiciously) as there was never any transmission on
> the CTAF frequency. I listened to departure on my second radio; he/she
> wasn't on that frequency either. When I turned base, the Citation was at
> the hold short line adjacent to the active threshold. As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a
> 360, landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
>
> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say
> "boo" before taking an active runway?
>

A runway incursion is "any occurrence in the airport runway environment
involving an aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that creates
a collision hazard or results in a loss of required separation with an
aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land."
It's a non-towered field so there's no separation requirement. Was there a
genuine collision hazard? Would you have collided had you not done the 360?

[BTIZ]

What was that Form Number? Oh yea.. NASA Form 277.
You can get it at www.asa2fly.com and do a search on "NASA Form 277"

It does not force an "enforcement action", but if contacted it might put the
pilot on notice that he goofed.

BT

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
> untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
> pattern.
>
> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.
>
> I saw the Citation taxiing toward the active as I was downwind. I watched
> the plane carefully (suspiciously) as there was never any transmission on
> the CTAF frequency. I listened to departure on my second radio; he/she
> wasn't on that frequency either. When I turned base, the Citation was at
> the hold short line adjacent to the active threshold. As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a
> 360,
> landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
>
> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say
> "boo"
> before taking an active runway?
>
> We all see lots of idiot drivers on the road. I used to think aviation
> was
> different, both because the training is more rigorous and because the
> stakes
> are so much higher. With all the idiotic and careless mistakes I read
> about
> in NTSB accident reports, I'm beginning to wonder.
>
> Thanks for reading--I'm a little less upset after having written this
> down.
>
>

[Robert Coffey]

are radio calls mandatory on uncontrolled fields?

Joe Johnson wrote:
> Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
> untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
> pattern.
>
> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.
>
> I saw the Citation taxiing toward the active as I was downwind. I watched
> the plane carefully (suspiciously) as there was never any transmission on
> the CTAF frequency. I listened to departure on my second radio; he/she
> wasn't on that frequency either. When I turned base, the Citation was at
> the hold short line adjacent to the active threshold. As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a 360,
> landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
>
> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say "boo"
> before taking an active runway?
>
> We all see lots of idiot drivers on the road. I used to think aviation was
> different, both because the training is more rigorous and because the stakes
> are so much higher. With all the idiotic and careless mistakes I read about
> in NTSB accident reports, I'm beginning to wonder.
>
> Thanks for reading--I'm a little less upset after having written this down.
>
>

[[email protected]]

It pays to pay attention. Geezz I wonder how in the world we all got
along before everyone had radios and had to call everyone in the world
before we did anything........
What the hell is wrong with pilots these days?
grumpy old gray haired fart pilot who learned in the 50's ......

[mindenpilot]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...
> Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
> untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
> pattern.
>
> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.
>
> I saw the Citation taxiing toward the active as I was downwind. I watched
> the plane carefully (suspiciously) as there was never any transmission on
> the CTAF frequency. I listened to departure on my second radio; he/she
> wasn't on that frequency either. When I turned base, the Citation was at
> the hold short line adjacent to the active threshold. As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a
> 360,
> landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
>
> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say
> "boo"
> before taking an active runway?
>
> We all see lots of idiot drivers on the road. I used to think aviation
> was
> different, both because the training is more rigorous and because the
> stakes
> are so much higher. With all the idiotic and careless mistakes I read
> about
> in NTSB accident reports, I'm beginning to wonder.
>
> Thanks for reading--I'm a little less upset after having written this
> down.
>
>

I posted a while back about a Gulf Jet that did that to me at my local
untowered field.
I didn't do anything, because everyone makes a mistake...once.
If it happens again, I'll definitely report it.
I'd like to think that if I ever made a mistake (wrong frequency, etc),
someone would cut me some slack.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert Coffey" > wrote in message
news:NvwUd.64289$wc.37428@trnddc07...
>
> are radio calls mandatory on uncontrolled fields?
>

No.

[Michael 182]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...

> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say
> "boo"
> before taking an active runway?

If you report it, it's your word against his. Whose to say you were on the
right frequency? Or that you didn't have the volume turned down because you
were listening to AWOS on the other radio?

My feeling is never involve the FAA in anything if avoidable.

Michael

[Peter R.]

Michael 182 > wrote:

> If you report it, it's your word against his. Whose to say you were on the
> right frequency? Or that you didn't have the volume turned down because you
> were listening to AWOS on the other radio?

It really is irrelevant whether the OP and/or the pilot of the Citation
were on the correct frequency. The OP could have been a nordo Cub.

The claim that the Citation pilot allegedly entered the runway in front of
an aircraft on short final is the issue being discussed here.

--
Peter













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[Michael 182]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Michael 182 > wrote:
>
>> If you report it, it's your word against his. Whose to say you were on
>> the
>> right frequency? Or that you didn't have the volume turned down because
>> you
>> were listening to AWOS on the other radio?
>
> It really is irrelevant whether the OP and/or the pilot of the Citation
> were on the correct frequency. The OP could have been a nordo Cub.
>
> The claim that the Citation pilot allegedly entered the runway in front of
> an aircraft on short final is the issue being discussed here.
>
> --
> Peter

Good point - I missed that on the original post. However, I'd still avoid
the FAA at all costs...

Michael

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> It really is irrelevant whether the OP and/or the pilot of the Citation
> were on the correct frequency. The OP could have been a nordo Cub.
>
> The claim that the Citation pilot allegedly entered the runway in front of
> an aircraft on short final is the issue being discussed here.
>

What's short final? Aircraft enter runways and takeoff in front of aircraft
on final regularly without mishap. I believe the OP said he was on a on 1/4
to 1/2 mile final. Maybe. Maybe not. Many pilots are absolutely horrible
at judging distance. There may have been plenty of room.

[Peter R.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> I believe the OP said he was on a on 1/4
> to 1/2 mile final. Maybe. Maybe not. Many pilots are absolutely horrible
> at judging distance. There may have been plenty of room.

Hence my use of the word "allegedly."

--
Peter













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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Icebound]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Robert Coffey" > wrote in message
> news:NvwUd.64289$wc.37428@trnddc07...
>>
>> are radio calls mandatory on uncontrolled fields?
>>
>
> No.
>

Those of you who fly to Canada:

.... be aware that designated uncontrolled airports DO have a Mandatory
Frequency (MF) assigned, listening watch is to be maintained on that
frequency within the specified radius of the airport, and calling procedures
must be followed, whether or not there is a ground station of any type.
"Calling procedures" normally include statement of intentions at least 5
minutes before entering the area, and report of joining the pattern,
downwind, final, and clear of runway.

On departure, report intentions before taking the runway, taking the runway,
and departing the pattern.

a/c on IFR approaches have their own rules with respect to reporting fixes.

Such airports are shown on the Canadian VFR charts with an M and the
frequency in the lower right-hand portion of the airport descriptor box, as
in: M122.3, for example.

It is also my understanding than any controlled airport where the tower
operates less than 24/7, operates as a MF airport during any period when the
tower is not in operation.

[Jose]

> As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a 360,
> landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
>
> Should I report this to the FAA?

No.

It might be worth a NASA report, but AFAICS no FAA regs were broken, and
"careless and reckless" doesn't seem to apply. Half mile final in a
cherokee (for example) is thirty seconds to touchdown. In that thirty
seconds the citation would be in the air and not a factor. It is not a
requirement to talk on the radio at an untowered field (and it shouldn't
be).

It is possible he didn't see you, had the wrong frequency, your radios
were turned down, you misjudged distance, any number of things. You
might (since you got the tail number) send the owner a note expressing
your concern, in case it's an "oops" on his part that he didn't realize.
It can be anonymous if you like - the important thing is that he get
the message that (maybe) he cut it too close.

But in this circumstance I don't see what calling the FAA out on him
would accomplish.

Jose
--
Nothing is more powerful than a commercial interest.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[mindenpilot]

> What's short final? Aircraft enter runways and takeoff in front of
> aircraft on final regularly without mishap.

Short enough that he had to do a 360 instead of continuing in for landing.
I think the fact that he had to take evasive action means that the Citation
wasn't paying attention.

Adam

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:47:57 GMT, Robert Coffey
> wrote:

>are radio calls mandatory on uncontrolled fields?

Well, you have an obligation not to put people in danger. Radio can't
be mandatory because planes are flying that have no radio. It's "see
and avoid."

Seems to me the Citation pilot fell short of his obligation. Perhaps
as the more experienced pilot he figured he knew he had time to take
off without jeopardizing the other plane. Of course he should have
called. It's never a good idea to spook somebody controlling a heavy
object at high speed.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Joe Johnson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> A runway incursion is "any occurrence in the airport runway environment
> involving an aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that
creates
> a collision hazard or results in a loss of required separation with an
> aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to
land."
> It's a non-towered field so there's no separation requirement. Was there
a
> genuine collision hazard? Would you have collided had you not done the
360?
>
We would have collided had I not done the 360 or gone around. Obviously, I
saw the aircraft and made contigency plans (trying to "stay ahead" of the
situation) since I heard no radio transmissions, all in an effort to
minimize the probability of colliding. If he/she had held short a few
seconds longer and pulled out as I was crossing the threshold, then the
chances of a collision would have been substantial.

[Joe Johnson]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:hfwUd.27784$Tt.10253@fed1read05...
> What was that Form Number? Oh yea.. NASA Form 277.
> You can get it at www.asa2fly.com and do a search on "NASA Form 277"
>
> It does not force an "enforcement action", but if contacted it might put
the
> pilot on notice that he goofed.
>
> BT

Thanks, BT.

[Robert Coffey]

no doubt the citation pilot was either careless or a jerk, but i don't
think there is much to discuss with the faa. the citation had the runway.

Cub Driver wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:47:57 GMT, Robert Coffey
> > wrote:
>
>
>>are radio calls mandatory on uncontrolled fields?
>
>
> Well, you have an obligation not to put people in danger. Radio can't
> be mandatory because planes are flying that have no radio. It's "see
> and avoid."
>
> Seems to me the Citation pilot fell short of his obligation. Perhaps
> as the more experienced pilot he figured he knew he had time to take
> off without jeopardizing the other plane. Of course he should have
> called. It's never a good idea to spook somebody controlling a heavy
> object at high speed.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net

[Joe Johnson]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> so.. Tell us the N number. Inquiring minds wanting to know and all...
>
I'm glad you won't have to read about it on an NTSB report...

[Joe Johnson]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Michael 182 > wrote:

> It really is irrelevant whether the OP and/or the pilot of the Citation
> were on the correct frequency. The OP could have been a nordo Cub.
>
> The claim that the Citation pilot allegedly entered the runway in front of
> an aircraft on short final is the issue being discussed here.
>
> --
> Peter

That's correct, Peter.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> Short enough that he had to do a 360 instead of continuing in for landing.
> I think the fact that he had to take evasive action means that the
> Citation wasn't paying attention.
>

We don't know that it was short enough that he HAD to do a 360 instead of
continuing in for landing. We don't know that he HAD to take evasive
action.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Seems to me the Citation pilot fell short of his obligation. Perhaps
> as the more experienced pilot he figured he knew he had time to take
> off without jeopardizing the other plane.
>

Yup, and he may have figured correctly.

[Joe Johnson]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:MivUd.71208$4q6.70081@attbi_s01...
> Hmmm. Must be a rash of Citation-itis. On Thursday I had a similar thing
> happen, in Muscatine, IA .
>
> The wind was calm, but had recently favored Rwy 24 -- so that's the runway
> we chose. (I believe it's the calm-wind runway of choice in MUT as well.)
>
> I had just finished my run-up, and had announced that I was taking the
> runway for departure when a Citation pilot announced that HE was departing
> on the reciprocal runway, Rwy 06! In fact, squinting into the sun I
could
> see that he was already sitting on the runway, facing me, way down at the
> other end, over a mile away.
>
> He had never said "boo" until that point, and his radio transmissions were
> VERY weak. Dunno if he was having trouble with the radio, or whether he
> simply hadn't announced, but there we sat on the runway, like opposing
cars
> in a demolition derby.
>
> He then somewhat sheepishly asked if I would mind letting him go first, as
> he had a clearance delivery time he had to meet. Not being in any
> particular hurry, I rolled back onto the taxiway, but it was a very
> unusual -- and potentially disastrous -- situation that ended well.
>
> All I can say is: I'm glad *I* announced.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
It's possible in your case that the pilot was on clearance delivery
frequency as he/she was scrambling to make a time. It's a good thing he
switched to CTAF and heard you. "See and avoid" is fine, but not so easy to
perform looking into a setting sun.

[Joe Johnson]

"Robert Coffey" > wrote in message
news:NvwUd.64289$wc.37428@trnddc07...
> are radio calls mandatory on uncontrolled fields?
>
No, not least because radios are not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...
>
> We would have collided had I not done the 360 or gone around. Obviously,
> I
> saw the aircraft and made contigency plans (trying to "stay ahead" of the
> situation) since I heard no radio transmissions, all in an effort to
> minimize the probability of colliding. If he/she had held short a few
> seconds longer and pulled out as I was crossing the threshold, then the
> chances of a collision would have been substantial.
>

Well, which is it? Would you have collided without the 360 as it was or
would you have collided only if the Citation had held short a few seconds
longer and pulled out as you were crossing the threshold?

[Denny]

Ya did good, Joe - nice job of heads up flying....

Now file it away in your school of hard knocks folder, and move on...
Life is too short to worry about little things like that... If you
confront the pilot he will rightously say he was using his radio and
you need to get yours fixed... At that point it is a school yard
scuffle on the level of, "Did so!" "Did not!"...

Running to the FAA only brings you to their attention and gives them
another incident to use in their campaign to eradicate general
aviation... How would you like for your picture to be posted in the
coffee room at the FSDO for every ramp inspector to memorize? Remember
the old chinese adage, "The nail that sticks up, gets hammered down."

cheers ... denny

[Joe Johnson]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> It pays to pay attention.

That's what I was trying to do...

> Geezz I wonder how in the world we all got
> along before everyone had radios and had to call everyone in the world
> before we did anything........

Do you think radios decrease the chances of a collision at non-towered
fields?

> What the hell is wrong with pilots these days?

That's exactly what I'm wondering. Life is probabilities. In flying, we
are taught to tilt the probabilities in our favor in dozens of ways. I
don't have to elaborate for a pilot with half a century of experience. We
know the Citation pilot had a radio--not using it, he/she wasn't minimizing
the chances of an accident.

> grumpy old gray haired fart pilot who learned in the 50's ......

Best wishes for many more years of safe flying...

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Jose > said:
>"careless and reckless" doesn't seem to apply. Half mile final in a
>cherokee (for example) is thirty seconds to touchdown. In that thirty
>seconds the citation would be in the air and not a factor. It is not a

When I was student pilot I was practicing touch and goes solo at a local
uncontrolled airport. I was in the middle of announcing my turn to final
when a twin took the runway, so I ammended my call to say I was going to
do a right 270 for spacing. The pilot in the twin said "no, continue on
final, I'll be out of here in no time", so I did, and he was right.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product.
-- Ferenc Mantfeld

[Lakeview Bill]

Isn't that the purpose of the "transmit on either com - listen on both"
switches that are on most audio panels?


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Joe Johnson wrote:
> >
> > Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> > aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say
"boo"
> > before taking an active runway?
>
> I don't know how to report it, but if a pilot has that sort of attitude,
he does
> not deserve to hold a commercial certificate. It's possible that he/she
was on
> the wrong frequency, but I think a chat with the Feds is in order.
>
> George Patterson
> I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Lakeview Bill]

"Half mile final in a Cherokee (for example) is thirty seconds to touchdown.
In that thirty seconds the citation would be in the air and not a factor."

Assuming that the Citation didn't have to abort...



"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
> > As I was on 1/4 to
> > 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> > takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a
360,
> > landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
> >
> > Should I report this to the FAA?
>
> No.
>
> It might be worth a NASA report, but AFAICS no FAA regs were broken, and
> "careless and reckless" doesn't seem to apply. Half mile final in a
> cherokee (for example) is thirty seconds to touchdown. In that thirty
> seconds the citation would be in the air and not a factor. It is not a
> requirement to talk on the radio at an untowered field (and it shouldn't
> be).
>
> It is possible he didn't see you, had the wrong frequency, your radios
> were turned down, you misjudged distance, any number of things. You
> might (since you got the tail number) send the owner a note expressing
> your concern, in case it's an "oops" on his part that he didn't realize.
> It can be anonymous if you like - the important thing is that he get
> the message that (maybe) he cut it too close.
>
> But in this circumstance I don't see what calling the FAA out on him
> would accomplish.
>
> Jose
> --
> Nothing is more powerful than a commercial interest.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Joe Johnson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> What's short final? Aircraft enter runways and takeoff in front of
aircraft
> on final regularly without mishap.

Absolutely. I've been asked by ATC to make "short approach" in front of
faster aircraft multiple times. I'm comfortable with that as I trained at a
very busy class D field. Sometimes I've accepted and sometimes I've
declined. But everyone's on the radio and knows what's going on...

> I believe the OP said he was on a on 1/4
> to 1/2 mile final. Maybe. Maybe not. Many pilots are absolutely
horrible
> at judging distance. There may have been plenty of room.
>
I substantially agree. That's why I gave the estimate a wide margin. I was
doing about 70 knots, so splitting the difference between my estimates would
give about 20 seconds. There would have been much less time if the Citation
had pulled out as I was crossing the threshold.

[kontiki]

If it were me I'd would just chalk it up to experience. You were
in the pattern observing the runway the whole time and did the
appropriate "go-around" when necessary. That is exactly what you
train to do all the time as a student pilot... for just such situations.

Now if this particular pilot (or airplane) were known for this
sort of thing then I'd say go for it. I've has a couple of similar
situations occur at an uncontrolled airport myself but that's
what staying visual and avoidance is all about.

I may be in the minority but I'd say use it as a learning experience.
If you fly enough hours something similar may (will?) happen to you
(and hopefully nothing MORE serious). Just my $.02

[Joe Johnson]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
> > What's short final? Aircraft enter runways and takeoff in front of
> > aircraft on final regularly without mishap.
>
> Short enough that he had to do a 360 instead of continuing in for landing.
> I think the fact that he had to take evasive action means that the
Citation
> wasn't paying attention.
>
> Adam
>
Hi Adam. I didn't think the pilot was paying attention from the time I saw
him/her on the taxiway. That's when I started making contingency plans.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Should I report this to the FAA?
>

If you did, what action would you expect the FAA to take?

[Joe Johnson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Well, which is it? Would you have collided without the 360 as it was or
> would you have collided only if the Citation had held short a few seconds
> longer and pulled out as you were crossing the threshold?
>
Definite collision if I had continued to land as it was. I was trying to
make the point that I started to make contigency plans (Extend downwind?
Plan for a 360 or S turns? Plan to go around?) from the moment I saw the
Citation on the taxiway and heard nothing on CTAF. I decided to turn base
because the Citation stopped at the hold short line and continued to call my
position (scratch the extend downwind plan). Not sure what your point is.
Is it that there is never any chance of a collision if at least one party is
watching and knows what's going on?

[Stefan]

Joe Johnson wrote:

> As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll;

I remember my first landing at a controlled airport with heavy iron.
(Got my primary training at a small grass strip.) I was told by the
tower to continue my approach. The runway was empty. But the very moment
I turned base to final, which is about 1/2 mile from the threshold at
that airport (Zürich), I saw to my surprize a 737 rolling onto the
runway and lining up, obviously cleared by the tower to do so. When I
was about 1/4 mile out, I got uneasy and called the tower, asking what
to do. "Continue approach, the airliner will depart." And so it did.
Plenty of room, a non event.

Stefan

[kontiki]

mindenpilot wrote:
> .........
> I'd like to think that if I ever made a mistake (wrong frequency, etc),
> someone would cut me some slack.
>
Exactly. Once I punched up the wrong frequency at my own field... I was
looking all around as I taxied and made my calls. I saw and heard no one
else in the pattern or on the field as I took the runway and departed.
It wasn't until I was airborne and still hearing silence that I took a
close look at the radio and noticed it was on the wrong frequency! DOH!

If there is no activity on the field nowadays I call up UNICOM for a radio
check.

[Joe Johnson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Seems to me the Citation pilot fell short of his obligation. Perhaps
> > as the more experienced pilot he figured he knew he had time to take
> > off without jeopardizing the other plane.
> >
>
> Yup, and he may have figured correctly.
>
Interesting how you snipped the rest of Dan's post:

>> Of course he should have called. It's never a good idea to spook
>> somebody controlling a heavy object at high speed.

Agree with you, Dan.

[G. Sylvester]

Jay -
Were other people on Unicom/CTAF? Was the cessna the exception?
Maybe your radio was tuned wrong? I doubt you want to play Mr. FAA but
if you have others with you on this, you might have a stronger case.
Is there a FAR that states Part 135 have standardized CTAF or could
they claim "oh, it's an uncontrolled field. I can do anything including
shutting off the radios in my $18 million spam-can smashing jet."
Generally, on approaches into uncontrolled airports, I'll make
regular radio calls. At times it gets busy as hell and I might skip
one or even two. Pre-departure the workload is a LOT less so not
making radio calls is kind of silly.

I still remember on my PPL checkride on 12/17/03, everyone
and their mother was out flying. I had a C182 position and hold when
I was on a 2 mile final for the simulated engine out. I was just about
to go around and cancel/postpone that section of it when the guy started
rolling. Uncontrolled airports really scare me. I'd rather have
"the voice of god" commanding aircraft around.

Gerald

[Peter R.]

Denny > wrote:

> Remember the old chinese adage, "The nail that sticks up, gets
> hammered down."

Hmmm.... Given China's history of controlling its people, might there be a
better adage to use?

--
Peter













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[Joe Johnson]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> I was in the middle of announcing my turn to final
> when a twin took the runway, so I ammended my call to say I was going to
> do a right 270 for spacing. The pilot in the twin said "no, continue on
> final, I'll be out of here in no time", so I did, and he was right.
>
Did the pilot take the runway unannounced?

[Peter R.]

"G. Sylvester" > wrote:

> Uncontrolled airports really scare me. I'd rather have
> "the voice of god" commanding aircraft around.

Too bad that doesn't work. The recent mid-airs in the US occurred at
towered airports. You really should be scared of class D airports.


--
Peter













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[Peter R.]

"Peter R." > wrote:

> Too bad that doesn't work.

This should read: "Too bad that doesn't *always* work."

It obviously works most of the time.

--
Peter













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[Jay Honeck]

> Were other people on Unicom/CTAF? Was the cessna the exception?
> Maybe your radio was tuned wrong? I doubt you want to play Mr. FAA but
> if you have others with you on this, you might have a stronger case.

Whoa, pardner. I'm not the one talking about reporting this guy for a
runway incursion.

I've flown long enough to make dumb mistakes, too. I figure our
Citation-jockey was getting his IFR clearance, didn't see (or hear) me until
the last second (I couldn't see him with the setting sun), and that's that.

It could have been disastrous, but wasn't -- because the system ultimately
worked.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> You really should be scared of class D airports.

Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any day.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:HJFUd.12332$r55.8014@attbi_s52...
>>
>> You really should be scared of class D airports.
>>
>
> Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
> day.
>

Do you think the problem is the tower, or the fact that they tend to have
more traffic?

[Jay Honeck]

>> Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
>> day.
>>
>
> Do you think the problem is the tower, or the fact that they tend to have
> more traffic?

I think it's a combination of factors.

Mostly I think it's a problem with controllers who *think* they know where
the planes are, based on (often erroneous) pilot position reports, combined
with the limitations of what a guy can see with binoculars.

When you've got a guy directing traffic who has a faulty mental picture of
the traffic in the airspace -- often through no fault of his own -- you've
got a recipe for trouble.

And you often get it, in my experience.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[GEG]

I've observed at our local airport, when the local airport manager and
some flight instructors pointed it out, how the MD State Police and
Customs helicopters don't report positions when they fly past the airport.
They have these cynical statements like, "I'm still waiting for the day
when they call in their position . . ." and others.

I guess these "officials" are just too consumed with other stuff to
worry about GA pilots safety. Maybe they listen but just go about their
business.

Is this common in other places?

I was also watching a recent news report on getting a tower at FDK
in Maryland, and they referenced several "near misses" with State Police
helicopters - but it makes me think that it was the State Police
who didn't call their positions!
Maybe anecdotal evidence, but still!


Joe Johnson wrote:
> Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
> untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
> pattern.
>
> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.
>
> I saw the Citation taxiing toward the active as I was downwind. I watched
> the plane carefully (suspiciously) as there was never any transmission on
> the CTAF frequency. I listened to departure on my second radio; he/she
> wasn't on that frequency either. When I turned base, the Citation was at
> the hold short line adjacent to the active threshold. As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a 360,
> landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
>
> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say "boo"
> before taking an active runway?
>
> We all see lots of idiot drivers on the road. I used to think aviation was
> different, both because the training is more rigorous and because the stakes
> are so much higher. With all the idiotic and careless mistakes I read about
> in NTSB accident reports, I'm beginning to wonder.
>
> Thanks for reading--I'm a little less upset after having written this down.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:C8GUd.10700$Ze3.5911@attbi_s51...
>
> I think it's a combination of factors.
>
> Mostly I think it's a problem with controllers who *think* they know where
> the planes are, based on (often erroneous) pilot position reports,
> combined with the limitations of what a guy can see with binoculars.
>
> When you've got a guy directing traffic who has a faulty mental picture of
> the traffic in the airspace -- often through no fault of his own -- you've
> got a recipe for trouble.
>

Agreed. If pilots reported their positions accurately the controller
wouldn't *think* he knew where they were. He'd know.

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:06:46 GMT, "Joe Johnson" >
wrote in >::

>Should I report this to the FAA?

Perhaps.

There is a lot of room for error in aviation. You might just calk-up
the incident to experience, and attempt to learn as much as you can
from it by analyzing what occurred and discussing it as you are now.

If you feel that the pilot of the Citation deliberately committed an
unsafe act, and consider him a threat to himself and others, I would
recommend you talk to him directly as a first step. If it turns out
that his explanation of the incident appears unreasonable from your
point of view, consider discussing it with his employer next. Review
his Part 135 documents and see if the broadcasting of self announced
position/intention reports at uncontrolled airports are mentioned in
them. Do some research, and learn all the regulations and attitudes
that are in play.

If it becomes clear that you are dealing with renegade who defend
reckless operations, then it might be time to contact a FSDO
Inspector. Taking that option as a first response denies a fellow
airman an opportunity to redeem himself, and likely will leave an
indelible mark on his FAA record that you may later feel was
unjustified.

Isn't this what you would prefer a fellow airman would do if you
happened to be the offending pilot?

This is just my 2¢.

[nrp]

I'm flabbergasted at how many of these comments refer to not following
the radio procedures. Yes the Citation should have called, but most
important is that he didn't look.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Joe Johnson" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> I was in the middle of announcing my turn to final
>> when a twin took the runway, so I ammended my call to say I was going to
>> do a right 270 for spacing. The pilot in the twin said "no, continue on
>> final, I'll be out of here in no time", so I did, and he was right.
>>
>Did the pilot take the runway unannounced?

I don't remember.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
`I was all fired up to write a big rant, but instead found apathy to be a
more worthwhile solution.' --- Ashley Penney

[John T]

No, radio calls are not mandatory at uncontrolled fields. Obviously
though, the citation isn't a NORAD plane, and he should have been making
calls. Wrong freq sound like it.

[Joe Johnson]

"GEG" > wrote in message
...
....snip...
>
> I guess these "officials" are just too consumed with other stuff to
> worry about GA pilots safety. Maybe they listen but just go about their
> business.
>
> Is this common in other places?
>
....snip...

This behavior is consistent with the way the police drive. Around here (SE
New York, including New York City), the cops are the worst drivers. No turn
signals changing lanes or turning, running red lights and stop signs (the
only excuse for which is an emergency, in which the siren & emergency lights
should be on), and other offenses. One would think that they'd have some
concern for their own safety, if not others.'

[Peter R.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>
>> Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
>> day.
>>
>
> Do you think the problem is the tower, or the fact that they tend to have
> more traffic?

Perhaps some pilots, thinking ATC has a complete handle on traffic, might
let their "see and avoid" guard down a little when flying into a towered
airport.


--
Peter













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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"nrp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I'm flabbergasted at how many of these comments refer to not following
> the radio procedures. Yes the Citation should have called, but most
> important is that he didn't look.
>

We don't know that either is true. He may have used the radio, he or the OP
may have been on the wrong frequency, the OP may have had his volume down,
etc. He may have spotted the inbound traffic and felt he had plenty of
room.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John T" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, radio calls are not mandatory at uncontrolled fields. Obviously
> though, the citation isn't a NORAD plane, and he should have been making
> calls. Wrong freq sound like it.
>

A NORAD plane may have been on UHF.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> Perhaps some pilots, thinking ATC has a complete handle on traffic, might
> let their "see and avoid" guard down a little when flying into a towered
> airport.
>

Yup, just as they relax their scan and rely on their radios to spot traffic.

[Joe Johnson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
....snip...

> We don't know that either is true. He may have used the radio, he or the
OP
> may have been on the wrong frequency, the OP may have had his volume down,
> etc. He may have spotted the inbound traffic and felt he had plenty of
> room.
>
The OP was on the correct frequency and had no trouble hearing and being
heard on other transmissions.

[Dave Stadt]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
>
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> >>
> >> Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
> >> day.
> >>
> >
> > Do you think the problem is the tower, or the fact that they tend to
have
> > more traffic?
>
> Perhaps some pilots, thinking ATC has a complete handle on traffic, might
> let their "see and avoid" guard down a little when flying into a towered
> airport.
>
>
> --
> Peter

Many totally quit looking once they start talking to the tower. It's a
horrible mistake and I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
provided in Class D.

[Dave Stadt]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I was in the middle of announcing my turn to final
> > when a twin took the runway, so I ammended my call to say I was going to
> > do a right 270 for spacing. The pilot in the twin said "no, continue on
> > final, I'll be out of here in no time", so I did, and he was right.
> >
> Did the pilot take the runway unannounced?


Does it make a difference?

[Dave Stadt]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John T" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > No, radio calls are not mandatory at uncontrolled fields. Obviously
> > though, the citation isn't a NORAD plane, and he should have been making
> > calls. Wrong freq sound like it.
> >
>
> A NORAD plane may have been on UHF.


And probably would not have been in a Citation at a nontowered airport.

[Stefan]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
> provided in Class D.

I've always thought that you must pass a written to get your
certificate? Or do most pilots just learn the answers by heart without
understanding them?

Stefan

[Dave Stadt]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> > I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
> > provided in Class D.
>
> I've always thought that you must pass a written to get your
> certificate? Or do most pilots just learn the answers by heart without
> understanding them?
>
> Stefan

You must pass a written test but there is no requirement to pass with a
perfect score or to remember any of it for any length of time. It is also
not the kind of thing I have ever been asked during a BFR.

[Dan Luke]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
> > When you've got a guy directing traffic who has a faulty mental picture
of
> > the traffic in the airspace -- often through no fault of his own --
you've
> > got a recipe for trouble.
> >
>
> Agreed. If pilots reported their positions accurately the controller
> wouldn't *think* he knew where they were. He'd know.

In my experience, the controllers at BFM tower have always refused to offer
traffic avoidance instructions unless they have all the relevant aircraft in
sight. They *might* pass along position reports, but that's it.

Now that they have DBRITE, they know where the aircraft really are, but I
haven't detected any change in the way they handle airplanes they're talking
to.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Tony Cox]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:HJFUd.12332$r55.8014@attbi_s52...
> > You really should be scared of class D airports.
>
> Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
day.

Really? All that money spent on controllers is wasted?

At least in class D, everyone is *supposed* to be on the radio, although
of course vigilance is always necessary. I think what you are really
saying is that danger goes up as the traffic density increases, and class D
tends to be busier than uncontrolled fields. I'd take a class D early in the
morning when no one is around any day!

Tony (not the same person as Avweb reported today as facing the clink
for falsifying his pilot certificate application!)

[Dan Luke]

"Stefan" wrote:
> > I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
> > provided in Class D.
>
> I've always thought that you must pass a written to get your
> certificate? Or do most pilots just learn the answers by heart without
> understanding them?

The list of things I didn't know about flying when I got my private ticket
would have filled a lot of exam books.

Eight years and nearly 1,000 hours later, I suspect the list is still quite
long.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Dave Stadt]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:HJFUd.12332$r55.8014@attbi_s52...
> > > You really should be scared of class D airports.
> >
> > Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
> day.
>
> Really? All that money spent on controllers is wasted?

In some cases, yes.

> At least in class D, everyone is *supposed* to be on the radio, although
> of course vigilance is always necessary. I think what you are really
> saying is that danger goes up as the traffic density increases, and class
D
> tends to be busier than uncontrolled fields. I'd take a class D early in
the
> morning when no one is around any day!

The non towered airport I fly out of (home base for 350 + aircraft)is busier
than most Class D airports, has 6 runways with 3 frequently in use at one
time, has a ton of NORDO aircraft and is much better behaved than a lot of
class D airports I have been to. Most close call or worse horror stories I
have experienced and heard involved someone in a tower with a radio and no
radar.

> Tony (not the same person as Avweb reported today as facing the clink
> for falsifying his pilot certificate application!)
>
>

[Steve.T]

In a word, Yes.

Not very long ago I witnessed a near miss. I filed a complaint with the
FAA annonymously via the internet. They called the airport to see who
was flying at the time. Well, since it happened a hour after the admin
building closed... The FAA tends to get lazy at times.

Meanwhile, had the two aircraft collided, I would have possibly been
immolated in my car. There was a plane in the process of departing and
I thought he was trying to be cute the way he began a turn as soon as
he rotated (get some Navy types now and then). Then I noticed another
a/c making a hard right turn, right over me who had been on final. Had
they collided, I was close enough, on the high-way that runs past the
end of the runway, to have been part of the ensuing gas shower and
fire.

I have had similar things happen with biz jets as you have just
mentioned. They get so busy with all their stuff that they forget there
are others getting clearances as well. Seems that because of a biz jet
that was in a hurry, I wound up with having to do an intersection
departure to keep approach happy (we were at a non-towered field with
an RCO). Why? because the biz jet cut me off as I was taxiing to the
runway!

So yes, I would at least file an ASRA about it.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[Joe Johnson]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...

> I remember my first landing at a controlled airport with heavy iron.
> (Got my primary training at a small grass strip.) I was told by the
> tower to continue my approach. The runway was empty. But the very moment
> I turned base to final, which is about 1/2 mile from the threshold at
> that airport (Zürich), I saw to my surprize a 737 rolling onto the
> runway and lining up, obviously cleared by the tower to do so. When I
> was about 1/4 mile out, I got uneasy and called the tower, asking what
> to do. "Continue approach, the airliner will depart." And so it did.
> Plenty of room, a non event.
>
> Stefan

Hi Stefan. I've never piloted heavy iron, so feel free to adjust the
numbers. Let's say you were 1/4 mile out travelling at 120 knots. If my
math is right, that's about 7.5 seconds to a collision. That's barely
enough time to call the tower and get a response. I would have considered
going around. I understand going around with a heavy is a big deal. Last
year we had 30G50 at our local class D and I saw a 737 go around because it
couldn't hit a 6500 x 150 ft. (1996 x 46 m) runway.

[Tony Cox]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
> > At least in class D, everyone is *supposed* to be on the radio, although
> > of course vigilance is always necessary. I think what you are really
> > saying is that danger goes up as the traffic density increases, and
class
> D
> > tends to be busier than uncontrolled fields. I'd take a class D early in
> the
> > morning when no one is around any day!
>
> The non towered airport I fly out of (home base for 350 + aircraft)is
busier
> than most Class D airports, has 6 runways with 3 frequently in use at one
> time, has a ton of NORDO aircraft and is much better behaved than a lot of
> class D airports I have been to. Most close call or worse horror stories
I
> have experienced and heard involved someone in a tower with a radio and no
> radar.

Interesting, isn't it? On the one hand, being "uncontrolled"
will hopefully put the fear of God into pilots so they are more
vigilant (yes, I know that being "controlled" shouldn't make a
difference). On the other, I *suspect* that uncontrolled fields
tend to attract the less active pilots, more intimidated by radio
work, who might not be as "on the ball" as they should be.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of mid-airs, corrected
for traffic density. I suspect the correction for traffic density
would be non-trivial.

[Joe Johnson]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've always thought that you must pass a written to get your
> certificate? Or do most pilots just learn the answers by heart without
> understanding them?
>
> Stefan

It's one thing to know the anwsers to an exam and another thing to apply
this knowledge. This was brought home to me by an experience about 2 weeks
after I got my ticket. I was doing touch and goes at my home field and ATC
cleared a plane for takeoff on a crossing runway; the timing was such that
our paths would have crossed as I was on downwind for my runway. Now I knew
that ATC is not responsible for separation of VFR aircraft in class D, but
this brought home to me that ATC could clear aircraft on a midair collision
course and bear no responsibility should there be an accident. By the way,
I made the wrong decision and continued the pattern; we saw each other in
time to avoid a collision. The right move would have been to ask for the
opposite pattern for that "go" (read "inform ATC that I intended to fly the
opposite pattern" ) or extend downwind until the other aircraft departed.

[Dan Girellini]

"Dave Stadt" > writes:

> "Peter R." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Perhaps some pilots, thinking ATC has a complete handle on traffic, might
>> let their "see and avoid" guard down a little when flying into a towered
>> airport.

> Many totally quit looking once they start talking to the tower. It's a
> horrible mistake and I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
> provided in Class D.

I similarly suspect many pilots don't know vfr/vfr separation isn't provided in
Class C either.

Dan.

[Jose]

> I *suspect* that uncontrolled fields
> tend to attract the less active pilots, more intimidated by radio
> work, who might not be as "on the ball" as they should be.

I'm not convinced that uncontrolled means "less active" pilots. Betcha
it's just more rural, and there is the same mix of active and inactive
pilots.

Jose
--
Nothing is more powerful than a commercial interest.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Raul Ruiz]

True story. The other day I was completing leg #1 of my solo cross
country for my Private Pilot Certificate. I was preparing to land at my
home airport, a class D at Opa-Locka (KOPF). I called the tower,
entered the airspace, and was cleared to land on 9L. A couple of
minutes later I hear that a Coast Guard jet was cleared to land on 9L.
Now, I was doing 80-90 knots before I deployed flaps or started my
prelanding checklist. I think jets fly just a bit faster than that. I
got a little nervous that we were both cleared to land and he obviously
wasn't in front of me.

I looked around the airspace trying to find the jet. I know Class D
doesn't provide radar separation, but the tower had always advised me
of traffic before. And besides, this jet was probably still over the
Everglades and made a call from afar. WRONG! I hear on the radio, 40U
immediate right turn, cleared to land on 9R. When I turned south to
intercept the 9R centerline, I saw the jet pretty darn close to me on
final for 9L. What ever happened to the right of way, me being the
lower airplane and all?

I've never had any of these problems at an uncontrolled despite what
seems to be more traffic and CTAF frequencies from multiple airports
colliding. These kind of things are really an eye-opener, and I can
see how people tend to get too comfortable in Class D.

Jay Honeck wrote:
> >> Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta,
any
> >> day.
> >>
> >
> > Do you think the problem is the tower, or the fact that they tend
to have
> > more traffic?
>
> I think it's a combination of factors.
>
> Mostly I think it's a problem with controllers who *think* they know
where
> the planes are, based on (often erroneous) pilot position reports,
combined
> with the limitations of what a guy can see with binoculars.
>
> When you've got a guy directing traffic who has a faulty mental
picture of
> the traffic in the airspace -- often through no fault of his own --
you've
> got a recipe for trouble.
>
> And you often get it, in my experience.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Bravo8500]

To the original post - ACHE EEE ELLL ELLL NO!

[Dave Stadt]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
k.net...
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> >
> > > At least in class D, everyone is *supposed* to be on the radio,
although
> > > of course vigilance is always necessary. I think what you are really
> > > saying is that danger goes up as the traffic density increases, and
> class
> > D
> > > tends to be busier than uncontrolled fields. I'd take a class D early
in
> > the
> > > morning when no one is around any day!
> >
> > The non towered airport I fly out of (home base for 350 + aircraft)is
> busier
> > than most Class D airports, has 6 runways with 3 frequently in use at
one
> > time, has a ton of NORDO aircraft and is much better behaved than a lot
of
> > class D airports I have been to. Most close call or worse horror
stories
> I
> > have experienced and heard involved someone in a tower with a radio and
no
> > radar.
>
> Interesting, isn't it? On the one hand, being "uncontrolled"
> will hopefully put the fear of God into pilots so they are more
> vigilant (yes, I know that being "controlled" shouldn't make a
> difference). On the other, I *suspect* that uncontrolled fields
> tend to attract the less active pilots, more intimidated by radio
> work, who might not be as "on the ball" as they should be.

I suspect what you suspect is totally wrong.

[mindenpilot]

"GEG" > wrote in message
...
> I've observed at our local airport, when the local airport manager and
> some flight instructors pointed it out, how the MD State Police and
> Customs helicopters don't report positions when they fly past the airport.
> They have these cynical statements like, "I'm still waiting for the day
> when they call in their position . . ." and others.
>
> I guess these "officials" are just too consumed with other stuff to worry
> about GA pilots safety. Maybe they listen but just go about their
> business.
>
> Is this common in other places?
>

I had a similar experience at Stead, NV.
I was picking up my Dad.
I saw a helicopter sitting on the active runway.
I called on downwind...no response.
I called on base...no response.
I called on final...no response...helicopter still sitting there.
I made a call that I was "going around to wait for the helicopter to get off
the runway".
To which they replied, "we'll take off parallel to the runway".
It took off, and I landed.

As I came close to it, I noticed it was Nevada Highway Patrol.
Kind of miffed, and being the smart-ass that I am, I called "you gonna give
me a ticket for taxi-ing too fast?".

Guess what...no response.

Not sure what the deal is with these guys.
They were just practicing patterns.
You'd think they could extend the same courtesy as the rest of us.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Stefan]

Joe Johnson wrote:

> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>I remember my first landing at a controlled airport with heavy iron.

> Hi Stefan. I've never piloted heavy iron, so feel free to adjust the

Me neither. I didn't mean "landing... with heavy iron" but "airport with
heavy iron". I should have written "airport where also heavy iron land".
This adjustes the numbers. The moment I made the call I still had 15 to
20 seconds to touch down.

That said, I am aware that it makes a big difference whether I can speak
to somebody who sais "I've seen you, don't bother", be it a tower or the
other plane, or I have no contact and don't know what will happen next.

Stefan

[Stefan]

Joe Johnson wrote:

> cleared a plane for takeoff on a crossing runway; the timing was such that
> our paths would have crossed as I was on downwind for my runway. Now I knew

Now that is scary. The tower shouldn't do this, even if it's allowed, or
at least warn you (both).

Stefan

[Joe Johnson]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Joe Johnson wrote:
>
> > cleared a plane for takeoff on a crossing runway; the timing was such
that
> > our paths would have crossed as I was on downwind for my runway. Now I
knew
>
> Now that is scary. The tower shouldn't do this, even if it's allowed, or
> at least warn you (both).
>
> Stefan

Agreed. She even had the nerve to say, "maintain visual separation" after
we both maneuvered to avoid a collision.

Did you fly for Swissair (.ch email address, Zurich in another post)? My
first flight on a jet was on a 707 as a 14 year old accompanying my parents
to Europe. My favorite legs were JFK-ZRH and ZRH-JFK, and I loved Zurich.

[Mike W.]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Joe Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > cleared a plane for takeoff on a crossing runway; the timing was such
> that
> > > our paths would have crossed as I was on downwind for my runway. Now
I
> knew
> >
> > Now that is scary. The tower shouldn't do this, even if it's allowed, or
> > at least warn you (both).
> >
> > Stefan
>
> Agreed. She even had the nerve to say, "maintain visual separation" after
> we both maneuvered to avoid a collision.

Best solution would have been for controller to hold departing traffic until
you were midfield downwind, or put you on left or right (opposite of
standard for the runway you were using) so they would not ever cross your
path.

[Rob]

Nor-DOH!

[Joe Johnson]

"Mike W." > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Best solution would have been for controller to hold departing traffic
until
> you were midfield downwind, or put you on left or right (opposite of
> standard for the runway you were using) so they would not ever cross your
> path.
>
Agree with that, Mike W. Once the other aircraft was cleared for takeoff,
my mistake was not asserting myself (my paper ticket was about 2 weeks old)
and extending downwind or flying the opposite pattern as you suggest. I
still get shivers when I think about it.

[[email protected]]

Joe Johnson > wrote:
> Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
> untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
> pattern.

Please file a NASA ASRS report! Really! Everyone needs to be
on frequency "if able"!


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 222 Young Eagles!

[Roger]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:47:44 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>
>
>Joe Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
>> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say "boo"
>> before taking an active runway?
>
>I don't know how to report it, but if a pilot has that sort of attitude, he does
>not deserve to hold a commercial certificate. It's possible that he/she was on
>the wrong frequency, but I think a chat with the Feds is in order.

Although we should put out a call on UNICOM or CTAF when you have a
void time, have your departure frequency and center dialed in on one
radio and are talking to a control tower some where else via 121.275
and the person in the right seat says "all clear" I can see where
switching back to UNICOM could be missed.

Here with training, tail draggers, a preferred runway for the bigger
stuff due to a noise sensitive area and the runways cross it is not
uncommon to find both in use at the same time with some NORDO traffic.
Admittedly not a Citation. Still running 18/24 or 06/36 at the same
time with students, NORDO, and transient traffic is not at all
uncommon. Add to that, The VOR-A approach comes in on a heading of
137 degrees at 500 feet AGL while the GPS 06 and 24 approaches come
straight in from 5 miles out can make for an interesting day.
Particularly when the ceiling is about 1500 to 2000 and approach wants
you with them until it's "airport in sight". OTOH I have broken out
at close to minimums to find a windshield full of a scud runner that
ATC did not see.

We had a Falcon 900 come in a while back and he started making
announcements 12 miles out for a straight in on 06 as that was what
ATC gave them. If they missed it was going to be a hard left as we
were well inside a TFR and just over a mile from the 10 mile "no fly"
zone.

We still had a lot of traffic as we were the closest in airport that
was outside the 10 mile ring. With the TFR we didn't have any NORDO
traffic, but imagine that 900 on a 12 mile final with a couple of
NORDOs in the pattern for the intersecting runway.

As it's a safety item I'd just fill out a NASA form.
In reality whether good sense or not, they were not required to make a
transmission, and with a 1/4 to 1/2 mile they had plenty of time to
get out of your way.

Were it me I'd have just continued on in to land with an eye out for
jet wash.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>George Patterson
> I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Dave Butler]

Joe Johnson wrote:
> Me: 240 hr PP-ASEL, minding my own business, doing touch & goes at an
> untowered field, and scrupulously calling my position in every leg of the
> pattern.
>
> The offender: pilot of a small Citation jet.
>
> I saw the Citation taxiing toward the active as I was downwind. I watched
> the plane carefully (suspiciously) as there was never any transmission on
> the CTAF frequency. I listened to departure on my second radio; he/she
> wasn't on that frequency either. When I turned base, the Citation was at
> the hold short line adjacent to the active threshold. As I was on 1/4 to
> 1/2 mile final, the Citation suddenly took the runway and started the
> takeoff roll; nary a radio call was heard. Prepared for this, I did a 360,
> landed, and got the tail number from an airport employee.
>
> Should I report this to the FAA? If so, how? When in the course of an
> aviation career does someone become so complacent that they don't say "boo"
> before taking an active runway?
>
> We all see lots of idiot drivers on the road. I used to think aviation was
> different, both because the training is more rigorous and because the stakes
> are so much higher. With all the idiotic and careless mistakes I read about
> in NTSB accident reports, I'm beginning to wonder.
>
> Thanks for reading--I'm a little less upset after having written this down.

Seems unlikely to me that someone flying a Citation would choose not to announce
his/her position. Maybe they had the wrong freq dialed in, or didn't know that
their transmitter was inop, or microphone not plugged in.

[Dave Butler]

nrp wrote:
> I'm flabbergasted at how many of these comments refer to not following
> the radio procedures. Yes the Citation should have called, but most
> important is that he didn't look.

We don't know that. Maybe he looked but didn't see. It happens. A Cherokee a
half-mile away ought to be visible, but it's not a big target. Maybe he saw,
judged that the Cherokee was not a factor.

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:14:52 -0500, Dave Butler > wrote:

>Maybe he saw,
>judged that the Cherokee was not a factor.

The most likely thought, it seems to me. Or maybe I am just a happy
optimist.

Still, he shouldn't have scared the Cherokee pilot. That's
unforgiveable. It's not enough to judge that you're doing no harm: you
ought to consider the possibility that the other guy is going to
interpret your actions differently. If you scare someone in an
airplane, he might whang into you. In Martha's cosmos, that would be a
Bad Thing.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
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the blog: www.danford.net