You Just Never Know

[[email protected]]

Last week a close friend and crop duster died as a result of injuries
when he experienced an engine failure after takeoff. He put it down
just fine, tore off the tailwheel and the gear stuck into the mud
causing an extreme short field stop. the gear was bent back under the
tail area, his seat belt and shoulder harness failed and he suffered
major crush injuries to his chest and abdomen. He was able to exit the
aircraft, walked around for a couple of minutes, talked to some of the
crew, said he didn't feel so good, then collapsed and died of internal
bleeding right there.
I helped him get his first ag seat about 10 years ago flying an Ag Cat
with the company I flew for. Then I helped him get his first turbine
seat some 5-6 years later. When I talked to him shortly before he died,
he told me he now had about 6,000 hours of good time logged and life
was good.
Gonna miss him and so will many who knew Big John Shanahan Ceres, CA.
RIP my brother
a saddened Ol Shy & Bashful

[Morgans]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Last week a close friend and crop duster died as a result of injuries
> when he experienced an engine failure after takeoff.

> Gonna miss him and so will many who knew Big John Shanahan Ceres, CA.
> RIP my brother
> a saddened Ol Shy & Bashful

As always, our prayers and sympathies are with you, the pilot and his family
and friends. These words are little comfort, but all we have to give.

Was this a turbine?
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

Jim
Yep.....Thrush. He had over a thousand hours in them with the same
operator. It was his 4th load of the day, 3 days into the season and he
was supposed to be off.
Of course it sticks in my mind when I take off with a load now and will
for a few more days/weeks.Where I am flying there is zero margin for
error and an engine failure means a crash pure and simple with little
chance of walking away. Spraying timber in the mountains of Oregon with
a turbine helicopter.
Ol S&B

[Joe Johnson]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Last week a close friend and crop duster died as a result of injuries
> when he experienced an engine failure after takeoff. He put it down
> just fine, tore off the tailwheel and the gear stuck into the mud
> causing an extreme short field stop. the gear was bent back under the
> tail area, his seat belt and shoulder harness failed and he suffered
> major crush injuries to his chest and abdomen. He was able to exit the
> aircraft, walked around for a couple of minutes, talked to some of the
> crew, said he didn't feel so good, then collapsed and died of internal
> bleeding right there.
> I helped him get his first ag seat about 10 years ago flying an Ag Cat
> with the company I flew for. Then I helped him get his first turbine
> seat some 5-6 years later. When I talked to him shortly before he died,
> he told me he now had about 6,000 hours of good time logged and life
> was good.
> Gonna miss him and so will many who knew Big John Shanahan Ceres, CA.
> RIP my brother
> a saddened Ol Shy & Bashful
>
Sorry about that, selwaykid. My prayers are with the pilot, his family, and
his friends (including you). Fly safe...

[kontiki]

My condolences go out to you and his family and close friends.
Very sorry to hear this... sounds like he was an excellent pilot.

wrote:
> Last week a close friend and crop duster died as a result of injuries
> when he experienced an engine failure after takeoff. He put it down
> just fine, tore off the tailwheel and the gear stuck into the mud
> causing an extreme short field stop. the gear was bent back under the
> tail area, his seat belt and shoulder harness failed and he suffered
> major crush injuries to his chest and abdomen. He was able to exit the
> aircraft, walked around for a couple of minutes, talked to some of the
> crew, said he didn't feel so good, then collapsed and died of internal
> bleeding right there.
> I helped him get his first ag seat about 10 years ago flying an Ag Cat
> with the company I flew for. Then I helped him get his first turbine
> seat some 5-6 years later. When I talked to him shortly before he died,
> he told me he now had about 6,000 hours of good time logged and life
> was good.
> Gonna miss him and so will many who knew Big John Shanahan Ceres, CA.
> RIP my brother
> a saddened Ol Shy & Bashful
>

[Denny]

Here in the Saginaw Michigan area we lost two pilots in recent years,
same spraying company... Two summers ago the owner/operator hired a
young fella to fly one of his two turbine planes... The young fella
supposedly had several years of active spraying and was apparently
flying well for a number of weeks... One day he pulled up hard up at
the end of the row, whip stalled and stuffed it straight into the
ground...
The next summer the owner went under the wires on about the 30th pass,
for unknown reasons, hooked the wire cutter on the vertical stab on the
cable TV run, which has a stainless steel wire rope suspending it,
ripped the tail feathers off and stuffed it... He was another one who
was talking until he bled out internally...The widow has government
contracts and I'm told has bought more planes and hired pilots...

As much as I love airplanes and flying, I have never once had the urge
to try spraying...


denny

[Larry Dighera]

On 27 Feb 2005 20:34:51 -0800, wrote in
. com>::

> his seat belt and shoulder harness failed

Has there been any investigation into why that occurred? Is
inspection of the belts a required part of the annual inspection? Are
they finite life parts? Were they factory installed? It sounds like
he'd have been okay if the belts didn't fail.

[Dudley Henriques]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Last week a close friend and crop duster died as a result of injuries
> when he experienced an engine failure after takeoff. He put it down
> just fine, tore off the tailwheel and the gear stuck into the mud
> causing an extreme short field stop. the gear was bent back under the
> tail area, his seat belt and shoulder harness failed and he suffered
> major crush injuries to his chest and abdomen. He was able to exit the
> aircraft, walked around for a couple of minutes, talked to some of the
> crew, said he didn't feel so good, then collapsed and died of internal
> bleeding right there.
> I helped him get his first ag seat about 10 years ago flying an Ag Cat
> with the company I flew for. Then I helped him get his first turbine
> seat some 5-6 years later. When I talked to him shortly before he died,
> he told me he now had about 6,000 hours of good time logged and life
> was good.
> Gonna miss him and so will many who knew Big John Shanahan Ceres, CA.
> RIP my brother
> a saddened Ol Shy & Bashful


I'm very sorry about this. I have unfortunately known what you must be
feeling myself more than once in my career, and I know how this feels.
When it comes to things like this, all of us are brothers.
Dudley

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2005 20:34:51 -0800, wrote in
> . com>::
>
> > his seat belt and shoulder harness failed
>
> Has there been any investigation into why that occurred? Is
> inspection of the belts a required part of the annual inspection?
Are
> they finite life parts? Were they factory installed? It sounds like
> he'd have been okay if the belts didn't fail.

Larry
I talked with another ag pilot friend who visited the site and he spoke
to a lot of people. The aircraft hit on mud and buried the gear which
caused it to stop in about 30' from 100mph. I have no idea what the
equipment is ultimately fail rated at but I seem to recall its 30 pos G
or more.
It was said there was a maintenance problem too and you can bet all
factors will be looked at carefully before its decided to go to court
or not.
I can't speculate too much and that would be an exercise in futility
not being on the site to do a personal investigation.
Thanks to all of you for your condolences and I'll pass them on to his
young daughters.

[[email protected]]

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss.

Hope his example will lead more ag operators to change out the belts
annually or at least bienneally as ultra violet rays weaken them. I've
been reading of ag accidents over the last ten years or so where the
belts failed in what, at first look, seemed to be survivable impacts.
Turned out they were original with the airplane and had never been
replaced.

Also, gotta convince the guys to call the ambulance and go to the
hospital even if it doesn't seem all that bad at the time. We lose too
many ag pilots because they want to maintain an image of being tough
and won't go to the hospital or they don't realize that they are
actually hurt. Shock covers up a heck of a lot of injuries.

It's often the little things on older airplanes that bite us...fraying
wiring, seat belts weakened...

All the best,
Rick

[jsmith]

I have some bad news for you... nylon stretches a lot more than you
think it will.
Think you have that shoulder belt tightened down just because you can
bearly reach the Kolsman knob on the panel? Impact at the right speed
and stop suddenly, the belt will stretch enough that your forehead will
hit the Kolsman knob.

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
> A friend took off early one morning as I watched (pseudo Cub
> homebuilt). At 200' the engine failed and he turned back.
> It was that, the swamp with tree stumps or the forest. He
> would have made it too, if not for the dead tree that he
> clipped off (sheared trunk went vertically through the fuse
> behind him and out the top) and the berm that stopped him
> short. He made it out with a big gash in his forehead from
> hitting the panel. Pretty difficult to put your forehead on
> the panel when flying solo from the rear seat, but he
> managed it. The belt attachment point failed - a tube
> buckled.

[Dan Luke]

Man; that's tough, Rocky. Sorry for your loss.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[John Clear]

In article >,
jsmith > wrote:
>I have some bad news for you... nylon stretches a lot more than you
>think it will.
>Think you have that shoulder belt tightened down just because you can
>bearly reach the Kolsman knob on the panel? Impact at the right speed
>and stop suddenly, the belt will stretch enough that your forehead will
>hit the Kolsman knob.

This is very true. I was in a car accident, and even though I was
properly belted, my chin hit the steering wheel as the belt stretched.
Fortunately my chin was just bruised, but I also sprained my ribs in
the accident, which was no fun.

As the nylon stretched, it got hot enough to melt the plastic
lettering on the college sweatshirt I was wearing at the time.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.panix.com/~jac

[Wizard of Draws]

On 2/27/05 11:34 PM, in article
. com, "
> wrote:

> Last week a close friend and crop duster died as a result of injuries
> when he experienced an engine failure after takeoff. He put it down
> just fine, tore off the tailwheel and the gear stuck into the mud
> causing an extreme short field stop. the gear was bent back under the
> tail area, his seat belt and shoulder harness failed and he suffered
> major crush injuries to his chest and abdomen. He was able to exit the
> aircraft, walked around for a couple of minutes, talked to some of the
> crew, said he didn't feel so good, then collapsed and died of internal
> bleeding right there.
> I helped him get his first ag seat about 10 years ago flying an Ag Cat
> with the company I flew for. Then I helped him get his first turbine
> seat some 5-6 years later. When I talked to him shortly before he died,
> he told me he now had about 6,000 hours of good time logged and life
> was good.
> Gonna miss him and so will many who knew Big John Shanahan Ceres, CA.
> RIP my brother
> a saddened Ol Shy & Bashful
>
My condolences to you and his family.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[[email protected]]

I've hit hard twice in accidents. once with no shoulder harness and we
both jacknifed over the seatbelts into the panel with resulting
face/head injuries. 2nd time was in a Piper Pawnee while crop spraying
and with seat belt/harness and helmet. I usually adjust the seatbelt
and harness so I have at least 4-6" from my face to the stick when I
try to bend over. even so, I had my face turned inboard when I hit the
crash rollpad with the helmet. Not enough to dent anything but it sure
stretched my neck a bit! I'm pleased to say I've since accumulated many
thousands of hours without further accidents or injuries. I hope to
continue with that record...but ya just never know.......
Rocky
aka Ol S&B

[Dudley Henriques]

"jsmith" > wrote in message
...
>I have some bad news for you... nylon stretches a lot more than you think
>it will.
> Think you have that shoulder belt tightened down just because you can
> bearly reach the Kolsman knob on the panel? Impact at the right speed and
> stop suddenly, the belt will stretch enough that your forehead will hit
> the Kolsman knob.

From the rear seat of a Cub?????

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[Morgans]

"John Clear" > wrote
>
> This is very true. I was in a car accident, and even though I was
> properly belted, my chin hit the steering wheel as the belt stretched.
> Fortunately my chin was just bruised, but I also sprained my ribs in
> the accident, which was no fun.
>
> As the nylon stretched, it got hot enough to melt the plastic
> lettering on the college sweatshirt I was wearing at the time.
>
> John

Wow! Just think how much harder the hit to your ribs would have been, if
the belt had not given up its energy over several inches by stretching, and
had held without the stretch, like a chain.
--
Jim in NC

[John Clear]

In article >, Morgans > wrote:
>
>"John Clear" > wrote
>>
>> This is very true. I was in a car accident, and even though I was
>> properly belted, my chin hit the steering wheel as the belt stretched.
>> Fortunately my chin was just bruised, but I also sprained my ribs in
>> the accident, which was no fun.
>>
>> As the nylon stretched, it got hot enough to melt the plastic
>> lettering on the college sweatshirt I was wearing at the time.
>
>Wow! Just think how much harder the hit to your ribs would have been, if
>the belt had not given up its energy over several inches by stretching, and
>had held without the stretch, like a chain.

Yeah, the belts did their job. I'll take sprained ribs over the
alternative any day. I just wish it was a five point harness,
since I think some of the injury to my ribs was caused by the
asymmetric force of the diagonal shoulder belt. My ribs popped above
my sternum on one side, and below on the other. The crash was a
head on impact, so the only side loads were caused by the diagonal
belt.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[David CL Francis]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 at 08:05:37 in message
. com>,
wrote:

>I talked with another ag pilot friend who visited the site and he spoke
>to a lot of people. The aircraft hit on mud and buried the gear which
>caused it to stop in about 30' from 100mph. I have no idea what the
>equipment is ultimately fail rated at but I seem to recall its 30 pos G
>or more.
According to my quick sum that is about an 11g average over 30 ft.
--
David CL Francis

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 19:01:50 GMT, David CL Francis
> wrote in
>::

>According to my quick sum that is about an 11g average over 30 ft.

I recall a rule of thumb, that the human body is able to withstand ~20
Gs.

[Jose]

> I recall a rule of thumb, that the human body is able to withstand ~20
> Gs.

Only if properly restrained. Six point harness and all.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Montblack]

("Jose" wrote)
> Only if properly restrained. Six point harness and all.


I thought prone/supine had something to with reaching max G's also.


Montblack

[Jay Beckman]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 19:01:50 GMT, David CL Francis
> > wrote in
> >::
>
>>According to my quick sum that is about an 11g average over 30 ft.
>
> I recall a rule of thumb, that the human body is able to withstand ~20
> Gs.

But, it has gone much higher:

"By riding the decelerator sled himself, Dr. Stapp demonstrated that a human
can withstand at least 45 G's in the forward position, with adequate
harness. This is the highest known G force voluntarily encountered by a
human. Dr. Stapp believed that the tolerance of humans to G force had not
yet been reached in tests, and is, in fact, much greater than ordinarily
thought possible."

From:

http://www.edwards.af.mil/history/docs_html/people/stapp_biography.html

And, doesn't duration factor in as well? For example, race car drivers have
experienced extremely high g-forces in wrecks but these were measured in
milliseconds.

I did a little Google-ing and saw references to NASCAR Black Box data
suggesting that some wrecks have been as high as 80Gs with Jerry Nadeau's
accident at Richmond a couple of years ago possibly being in the area of
"160Gs"

Mentioned In:

http://www.nascar.com/2003/news/headlines/wc/09/26/dearnhardtjr_wreck/index.html

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[jsmith]

In many high-G deceleration accidents, the aorta is ripped from the
heart, resulting in instant death.

> ("Jose" wrote)
>>Only if properly restrained. Six point harness and all.

Montblack wrote:
> I thought prone/supine had something to with reaching max G's also.

[Jay Honeck]

> In many high-G deceleration accidents, the aorta is ripped from the heart,
> resulting in instant death.

And in many others, it only partially tears, resulting in slow death.

Thus explaining the phenomenon of "she was up and talking right before she
keeled over" that is common in many airplane crashes.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:22:53 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 19:01:50 GMT, David CL Francis
>> > wrote in
>> >::
>>
>>>According to my quick sum that is about an 11g average over 30 ft.
>>
>> I recall a rule of thumb, that the human body is able to withstand ~20
>> Gs.
>
>But, it has gone much higher:
>
>"By riding the decelerator sled himself, Dr. Stapp demonstrated that a human
>can withstand at least 45 G's in the forward position, with adequate
>harness. This is the highest known G force voluntarily encountered by a
>human. Dr. Stapp believed that the tolerance of humans to G force had not
>yet been reached in tests, and is, in fact, much greater than ordinarily
>thought possible."

Now there is a guy who took a real physical beating to prove a point!
He looked like he'd been caught out back of a bar.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>From:
>
>http://www.edwards.af.mil/history/docs_html/people/stapp_biography.html
>
>And, doesn't duration factor in as well? For example, race car drivers have
>experienced extremely high g-forces in wrecks but these were measured in
>milliseconds.
>
>I did a little Google-ing and saw references to NASCAR Black Box data
>suggesting that some wrecks have been as high as 80Gs with Jerry Nadeau's
>accident at Richmond a couple of years ago possibly being in the area of
>"160Gs"
>
>Mentioned In:
>
>http://www.nascar.com/2003/news/headlines/wc/09/26/dearnhardtjr_wreck/index.html
>
>Jay Beckman
>PP-ASEL
>Chandler, AZ
>
>