View Full Version : Landing with broken rudder cable
Long time ago I landed glider with broken rudder. Rudder cable broke during stopping spin rotation in aerobatic flight on 3000 feet, decided not to bail out to see if flying and landing is possible and to save the glider. Flying with "hardover rudder" (full deflection) was interesting experience. Broken rudder cable will cause a severe yaw and roll with the resulting sideslip. Glider keeps turning, spiraling or circling in one direction (of unbroken cable) weather you like it or not it wants to spin or spiral all the time. You need much higher speed about 140 km/h or more, or whatever it takes to control it to stop turning and to go into steep sideslip to fly straight with 30-50 degree of bank. Forget your legs, you don’t need rudder pedals any more. High speed and ailerons are your only friends. Keep your speed high because glider wants to spiral and stall at slower speeds. I landed that "sucker" perfectly by flying high speed in deep "grave" sideslip all the way to the ground to middle of airport leveling wings moment before touchdown with full air brakes. I'm probably one of very few pilots that pulled this off with success, and I was 22 at that time, had 130 flying hours in 220 flights.
I remember that in situation like this you think very fast, you even have time to think that a few months earlier there was the same type of accident in other part of the country and pilot bailed out and glider went through the roof of the house. Also tighten your belts and keep your feet off rudder pedals, just in case. Keep your speed high, wings level, expect severe yaw, circles become wider, it takes time before you can fly straight with one wing low. If you slow down glider will start turning again so keep your speed up to go straight. This flight was 9 minutes including 6 minutes tow to 3300 feet when several other “normal” aerobatic flights were 16 minutes.
Andre
On Thursday, August 29, 2019 at 10:36:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Long time ago I landed glider with broken rudder. Rudder cable broke during stopping spin rotation in aerobatic flight on 3000 feet, decided not to bail out to see if flying and landing is possible and to save the glider. Flying with "hardover rudder" (full deflection) was interesting experience. Broken rudder cable will cause a severe yaw and roll with the resulting sideslip. Glider keeps turning, spiraling or circling in one direction (of unbroken cable) weather you like it or not it wants to spin or spiral all the time. You need much higher speed about 140 km/h or more, or whatever it takes to control it to stop turning and to go into steep sideslip to fly straight with 30-50 degree of bank. Forget your legs, you don’t need rudder pedals any more. High speed and ailerons are your only friends. Keep your speed high because glider wants to spiral and stall at slower speeds. I landed that "sucker" perfectly by flying high speed in deep "grave" sideslip all the way to the ground to middle of airport leveling wings moment before touchdown with full air brakes. I'm probably one of very few pilots that pulled this off with success, and I was 22 at that time, had 130 flying hours in 220 flights.
> I remember that in situation like this you think very fast, you even have time to think that a few months earlier there was the same type of accident in other part of the country and pilot bailed out and glider went through the roof of the house. Also tighten your belts and keep your feet off rudder pedals, just in case. Keep your speed high, wings level, expect severe yaw, circles become wider, it takes time before you can fly straight with one wing low. If you slow down glider will start turning again so keep your speed up to go straight. This flight was 9 minutes including 6 minutes tow to 3300 feet when several other “normal” aerobatic flights were 16 minutes.
> Andre
For all the rest of us who might not be able to "land land that sucker perfectly" I would suggest giving it to the insurance company and bailing out.
Chris Wedgwood[_2_]
August 30th 19, 06:27 AM
What glider type was this?
Surge
August 30th 19, 06:33 AM
Why would a broken rudder cable cause the rudder to stay fully deflected?
Wouldn't this only affect certain gliders with rudders which are "dual" spring loaded to return to centre position and the one spring breaks?
Faced with the same situation, I doubt I would bail out.
3000 feet AGL isn't very high and there are risks with bailing out. One has no reserve chute should the emergency pilot chute fail to deploy and hitting nasties like power lines on the way down could be fatal.
On Thursday, August 29, 2019 at 10:27:27 PM UTC-7, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
> What glider type was this?
SZD-12 Mucha 100
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SZD-12_Mucha_100
http://www.piotrp.de/SZYBOWCE/pszd12.htm
"gravitation takeoff"
Bezmiechowa , szd-12A "Mucha 100 A" - samo-start grawitacyjny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la3rb9LfG0Q
On Thursday, August 29, 2019 at 10:27:27 PM UTC-7, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
> What glider type was this?
SZD-12 Mucha 100A
Please check it and correct me if I'm wrong.
Usually the only springs in the rudder lines are those in front of pedals. Those springs keep the whole rudder line in tension.
What happen if let's say the right rudder cable breaks: right pedal goes full forward and the same do the left pedal. The glider start circling left. Possible correction: pull the pedals rack all the way back and put the left foot heel over the left pedal and pull back.
What happen if the right pedal spring breaks: right pedal goes back and left pedal goes full forward. The glider start circling left. Possible correction: pull the pedals rack all the way back and push hard the right pedal.
On Thursday, August 29, 2019 at 10:33:53 PM UTC-7, Surge wrote:
> Why would a broken rudder cable cause the rudder to stay fully deflected?
> Wouldn't this only affect certain gliders with rudders which are "dual" spring loaded to return to centre position and the one spring breaks?
>
> Faced with the same situation, I doubt I would bail out.
> 3000 feet AGL isn't very high and there are risks with bailing out. One has no reserve chute should the emergency pilot chute fail to deploy and hitting nasties like power lines on the way down could be fatal.
Good cable pulls rudder over, need high speed for better controll. At low speed it wants to roll and spiral, not enough aileron, outher wing has more lift, goes up. When you have some bank nose goes down into spiral. Only high speed and wings level helps to circle before you force it to steep sideslip to fly straight forward sideways.
Eric Munk
August 30th 19, 09:56 AM
Had this happen on a Puchacz when the cable tension member broke off the RH
rear pedal during a spin recovery. Aerodynamically balanced rudder
(counterweighted), combined with cable-tension from spring on one side
only, made for interesting flying. Aircraft landed OK with some effort due
to hardover rudder. Subsequent mandatory AD addressed the root cause and
cable attachment to rear pedal was modified worldwide.
Dan Marotta
August 30th 19, 03:26 PM
Nice job!
...But that's why I carry insurance on my glider and always wear a
parachute.* My biggest fear in the Stemme (and it's not really that big)
is fire, and I've already established my minimum bail out altitude for
that case.* Below that altitude, I'll simply stuff it on the ground, get
out (if I can), and run.
On 8/29/2019 10:36 PM, wrote:
> Long time ago I landed glider with broken rudder. Rudder cable broke during stopping spin rotation in aerobatic flight on 3000 feet, decided not to bail out to see if flying and landing is possible and to save the glider. Flying with "hardover rudder" (full deflection) was interesting experience. Broken rudder cable will cause a severe yaw and roll with the resulting sideslip. Glider keeps turning, spiraling or circling in one direction (of unbroken cable) weather you like it or not it wants to spin or spiral all the time. You need much higher speed about 140 km/h or more, or whatever it takes to control it to stop turning and to go into steep sideslip to fly straight with 30-50 degree of bank. Forget your legs, you don’t need rudder pedals any more. High speed and ailerons are your only friends. Keep your speed high because glider wants to spiral and stall at slower speeds. I landed that "sucker" perfectly by flying high speed in deep "grave" sideslip all the way to the ground to middle of airport leveling wings moment before touchdown with full air brakes. I'm probably one of very few pilots that pulled this off with success, and I was 22 at that time, had 130 flying hours in 220 flights.
> I remember that in situation like this you think very fast, you even have time to think that a few months earlier there was the same type of accident in other part of the country and pilot bailed out and glider went through the roof of the house. Also tighten your belts and keep your feet off rudder pedals, just in case. Keep your speed high, wings level, expect severe yaw, circles become wider, it takes time before you can fly straight with one wing low. If you slow down glider will start turning again so keep your speed up to go straight. This flight was 9 minutes including 6 minutes tow to 3300 feet when several other “normal” aerobatic flights were 16 minutes.
> Andre
--
Dan, 5J
BG[_4_]
August 30th 19, 04:17 PM
As an instructor, I practice this scenario in a Grob 103. Choose a direction and nail the rudder to the floor. We practice holding a heading and use of spoilers. Pretty much everyone agrees you could probably crash land and with good timing and luck everything will get to the ground unharmed. Maintaining airspeed prevents hint of a stall spin.
I also practice no ailerons or elevator using only the rudders and trim. Most are surprised how much control you have.
I highly recommend practicing with your own glider starting from a safe altitude. It will mentally prepare you for options that you might not want to explore for the first time in a real situation.
Other hands off things to practice is going into a cloud, letting go of the controls and see what your glider does. most will oscillate on pitch and quite a few will enter a spiral dive.
Bailing out you save yourself, while putting the rest of the world at risk. Plenty of stories of pilots landing in urban areas that have had these thoughts and did the right thing saving countless lives and property on the ground. Better to crash land in a field, than to have your plane fall to the ground while you float down in your chute.
BG
On Thursday, August 29, 2019 at 9:36:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Long time ago I landed glider with broken rudder. Rudder cable broke during stopping spin rotation in aerobatic flight on 3000 feet, decided not to bail out to see if flying and landing is possible and to save the glider. Flying with "hardover rudder" (full deflection) was interesting experience. Broken rudder cable will cause a severe yaw and roll with the resulting sideslip. Glider keeps turning, spiraling or circling in one direction (of unbroken cable) weather you like it or not it wants to spin or spiral all the time. You need much higher speed about 140 km/h or more, or whatever it takes to control it to stop turning and to go into steep sideslip to fly straight with 30-50 degree of bank. Forget your legs, you don’t need rudder pedals any more. High speed and ailerons are your only friends. Keep your speed high because glider wants to spiral and stall at slower speeds. I landed that "sucker" perfectly by flying high speed in deep "grave" sideslip all the way to the ground to middle of airport leveling wings moment before touchdown with full air brakes. I'm probably one of very few pilots that pulled this off with success, and I was 22 at that time, had 130 flying hours in 220 flights.
> I remember that in situation like this you think very fast, you even have time to think that a few months earlier there was the same type of accident in other part of the country and pilot bailed out and glider went through the roof of the house. Also tighten your belts and keep your feet off rudder pedals, just in case. Keep your speed high, wings level, expect severe yaw, circles become wider, it takes time before you can fly straight with one wing low. If you slow down glider will start turning again so keep your speed up to go straight. This flight was 9 minutes including 6 minutes tow to 3300 feet when several other “normal” aerobatic flights were 16 minutes.
> Andre
BobW
August 30th 19, 04:37 PM
On 8/30/2019 9:17 AM, BG wrote:
> As an instructor, I practice this scenario in a Grob 103. Choose a
> direction and nail the rudder to the floor. We practice holding a heading
> and use of spoilers. Pretty much everyone agrees you could probably crash
> land and with good timing and luck everything will get to the ground
> unharmed. Maintaining airspeed prevents hint of a stall spin.
>
> I also practice no ailerons or elevator using only the rudders and trim.
> Most are surprised how much control you have.
>
> I highly recommend practicing with your own glider starting from a safe
> altitude. It will mentally prepare you for options that you might not want
> to explore for the first time in a real situation.
>
> Other hands off things to practice is going into a cloud, letting go of the
> controls and see what your glider does. most will oscillate on pitch and
> quite a few will enter a spiral dive.
>
> Bailing out you save yourself, while putting the rest of the world at risk.
> Plenty of stories of pilots landing in urban areas that have had these
> thoughts and did the right thing saving countless lives and property on the
> ground. Better to crash land in a field, than to have your plane fall to
> the ground while you float down in your chute.
>
> BG
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 29, 2019 at 9:36:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Long time ago I landed glider with broken rudder...
<Snip...>
"What Buzz wrote." (And, for the record, I don't know the man.)
A little prep - mental and otherwise - can go a long way toward maximizing
potential for a good outcome in the face of a bad situation, regardless of the
*reason* for the bad situation. Kinda like the (apocryphal?) Navy pilot who
allegedly responded to the clueless-reporter-type gushing about the
"instantaneous decision" to eject in the "unexpected case" of a low-energy cat
shot. "That decision was made a long time ago." Certain scenarios are simply
unsalvageable. Others...not the case.
Is there a soaring pilot alive who hasn't had mental time on hand while doing
some flag-pole-sitting prior to landing and toyed with the concept of "boredom?"
YMMV.
Bob W.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
August 30th 19, 04:57 PM
On Fri, 30 Aug 2019 08:17:47 -0700, BG wrote:
> As an instructor, I practice this scenario in a Grob 103. Choose a
> direction and nail the rudder to the floor. We practice holding a
> heading and use of spoilers. Pretty much everyone agrees you could
> probably crash land and with good timing and luck everything will get to
> the ground unharmed. Maintaining airspeed prevents hint of a stall
> spin.
>
Good advice. I regularly slip my 201 Libelle quite hard - full or near-
full rudder deflection - so I'm up to speed with its handling in a hard
slip, both with and without spoiler deployment.
However as I usually slip it in a straight line when the brakes don't
shed height fast enough, steering it with the ailerons in a full-rudder
slip sounds like a useful thing to know.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
On Friday, August 30, 2019 at 2:46:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Please check it and correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> Usually the only springs in the rudder lines are those in front of pedals.. Those springs keep the whole rudder line in tension.
>
> What happen if let's say the right rudder cable breaks: right pedal goes full forward and the same do the left pedal. The glider start circling left.. Possible correction: pull the pedals rack all the way back and put the left foot heel over the left pedal and pull back.
>
> What happen if the right pedal spring breaks: right pedal goes back and left pedal goes full forward. The glider start circling left. Possible correction: pull the pedals rack all the way back and push hard the right pedal.
Depending on the glider, there may be additional options:
If the rudder cables are exposed in the cockpit, one may be able to grab a cable by hand and neutralize or reduce the rudder deflection. In the first example above, pull the left cable rearward, or push the right cable forward. It helps if you have a third hand.
If it's a two-seater, the broken cable may be between front and rear cockpits, so person in rear seat may still have rudder control (similar to broken spring situation above).
JS[_5_]
August 30th 19, 05:29 PM
On Friday, August 30, 2019 at 9:12:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, August 30, 2019 at 2:46:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Please check it and correct me if I'm wrong.
> >
> > Usually the only springs in the rudder lines are those in front of pedals. Those springs keep the whole rudder line in tension.
> >
> > What happen if let's say the right rudder cable breaks: right pedal goes full forward and the same do the left pedal. The glider start circling left. Possible correction: pull the pedals rack all the way back and put the left foot heel over the left pedal and pull back.
> >
> > What happen if the right pedal spring breaks: right pedal goes back and left pedal goes full forward. The glider start circling left. Possible correction: pull the pedals rack all the way back and push hard the right pedal.
>
> Depending on the glider, there may be additional options:
>
> If the rudder cables are exposed in the cockpit, one may be able to grab a cable by hand and neutralize or reduce the rudder deflection. In the first example above, pull the left cable rearward, or push the right cable forward. It helps if you have a third hand.
>
> If it's a two-seater, the broken cable may be between front and rear cockpits, so person in rear seat may still have rudder control (similar to broken spring situation above).
Seems that most of these failures are at the S-tube of the - front seat if there are two seats - rudder pedals. If there are two seats, the second pilot can fly while the pilot who lost the rudder due to the cable break can adjust the pedals back and relieve the spring tension with a foot behind the connected pedal.
In the Duo there is a maintenance manual section about routinely inspecting the cables at the S-tubes, so perhaps this is a known issue in the Janus fuselage.
I saw the JS1 fuselage that had this problem in Texas, when Tony delivered it to Williams. Surprisingly little damage with no pilot, but with low wing loading and an aft C/G, different to normal.
Jim
Dan Marotta
August 30th 19, 10:54 PM
Be my guest.* If I feel the need, I'm jumping.
On 8/30/2019 9:17 AM, BG wrote:
> Better to crash land in a field, than to have your plane fall to the ground while you float down in your chute.
--
Dan, 5J
Charlie Quebec
August 31st 19, 12:53 AM
Frankly, it’s a reflection of very poor maintenance if such defects are not noticed at inspection. I just completed a GFA annual inspectors airworthiness course,
and carefully inspection of all cables and their attachment points is mandatory.
Charlie Quebec
August 31st 19, 12:56 AM
A Stemme caught fire crashed and burnt killing both occupants here in Aus some years ago, given the small number going around, the percentages don’t look to good to me.
Mike the Strike
August 31st 19, 08:31 AM
On Saturday, August 31, 2019 at 12:53:05 AM UTC+1, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Frankly, it’s a reflection of very poor maintenance if such defects are not noticed at inspection. I just completed a GFA annual inspectors airworthiness course,
> and carefully inspection of all cables and their attachment points is mandatory.
Unfortunately, not all cable damage may be visible during routine inspection.
Years ago, I damaged a rudder cable on a Jantar-1 while installing other equipment - drilled a hole through the thing where its guide tube was glassed in the cockpit wall!
When we pulled the cable to replace it, we discovered a second damage point a foot or so from mine. The factory had apparently done the same thing during manufacture and the cable had lost a lot of its strands.
Mike
krasw
August 31st 19, 12:50 PM
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:17:49 UTC+3, BG wrote:
>
> Other hands off things to practice is going into a cloud, letting go of the controls and see what your glider does. most will oscillate on pitch and quite a few will enter a spiral dive.
Please tell me you are kidding, right?
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
August 31st 19, 01:06 PM
I don't think he is suggesting actually going into a cloud......more like, know what your ship if you flew hands off in benign spiral mode which could be used if you were sucked up in a cloud or were trapped on top while wave flying.
Harry Senn saved my life 5 years before I had a gap in the wave bars close up on me.
He taught my about the benign spinal which I had not been taught in my primary instruction. Trim more or less best L/D, hands and feet off controls other than full spoilers.
Not all ships will do it, and you have to practice in the BLUE over and over again with your ship with different configurations until you Know it will work and not advance into a spiral dive.
Kevin
92
Still inadvertent IMC in a glider is a terrifying thing and not something to be taken lightly. If you are going to fly wave you must make some preparations and think it through even if you intend to be the most cautious wave flier ever. It can still bite you.
Kevin
92
Dan Marotta
September 1st 19, 01:06 AM
That's why I've already made my bail out decision in the event of a
fire.* A friend in the Dominican Republic died because he didn't wear a
parachute and he couldn't get it back to the airport in time.* Below
700' AGL, I will put it on the ground with minimal maneuvering.* Above
700' AGL, continue to climb while jettisoning the canopy and getting
out.* I wear a very quick opening square parachute.
We just completed annual on my Stemme and there were things which should
have been caught on previous inspections, but were not. Every thing has
been corrected.
On 8/30/2019 5:56 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> A Stemme caught fire crashed and burnt killing both occupants here in Aus some years ago, given the small number going around, the percentages don’t look to good to me.
--
Dan, 5J
Dan Marotta
September 1st 19, 01:10 AM
I have a Dynon D-10a in my panel and I'm qualified to use it.* A lot of
these new glider computers have an attitude indicator function. It would
pay dividends to learn how to use it.
On 8/31/2019 6:25 AM, wrote:
> Still inadvertent IMC in a glider is a terrifying thing and not something to be taken lightly. If you are going to fly wave you must make some preparations and think it through even if you intend to be the most cautious wave flier ever. It can still bite you.
>
> Kevin
> 92
--
Dan, 5J
September 1st 19, 06:48 AM
I have a great deal of experience flying in max-effort rudder-on-the-stop slips in numerous aircraft ranging from Open Jantars to K-21’s to the awesome AS-W12 and have never felt the aircraft uncontrollable. Have flown literally hundreds of patterns in full rudder-stalled slips right through the flair as this is the only way to land a -12 without using the drag chutes. Never saw a problem.
john firth
September 10th 19, 08:39 PM
On Friday, August 30, 2019 at 12:36:02 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Long time ago I landed glider with broken rudder. Rudder cable broke during stopping spin rotation in aerobatic flight on 3000 feet, decided not to bail out to see if flying and landing is possible and to save the glider. Flying with "hardover rudder" (full deflection) was interesting experience. Broken rudder cable will cause a severe yaw and roll with the resulting sideslip. Glider keeps turning, spiraling or circling in one direction (of unbroken cable) weather you like it or not it wants to spin or spiral all the time. You need much higher speed about 140 km/h or more, or whatever it takes to control it to stop turning and to go into steep sideslip to fly straight with 30-50 degree of bank. Forget your legs, you don’t need rudder pedals any more. High speed and ailerons are your only friends. Keep your speed high because glider wants to spiral and stall at slower speeds. I landed that "sucker" perfectly by flying high speed in deep "grave" sideslip all the way to the ground to middle of airport leveling wings moment before touchdown with full air brakes. I'm probably one of very few pilots that pulled this off with success, and I was 22 at that time, had 130 flying hours in 220 flights.
> I remember that in situation like this you think very fast, you even have time to think that a few months earlier there was the same type of accident in other part of the country and pilot bailed out and glider went through the roof of the house. Also tighten your belts and keep your feet off rudder pedals, just in case. Keep your speed high, wings level, expect severe yaw, circles become wider, it takes time before you can fly straight with one wing low. If you slow down glider will start turning again so keep your speed up to go straight. This flight was 9 minutes including 6 minutes tow to 3300 feet when several other “normal” aerobatic flights were 16 minutes.
> Andre
Gliders of the 50 s and 60 s had rudder areas often much greater than the fin;
this made them liable to lock hard over.
In the 70 s Wortmann among others, designed tail sections with adequate
( flap deflected) lift coefficients with rudder area only 20% or so of the
total area. These will not lock over as I proved with a test on my PIK 20.
Proceedure: establish a slip with full rudder, remove feet from pedals
and release the stick. Glider returns to level flight after a few oscillations.
No problem getting the string centered with aileron only.
JMF
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