Purchase of glider from Canada

[juggle5]

Hi,
I am hoping to find someone in the US who has purchased a glider
from Canada and had some time to share what is needed for a smooth transaction.

I guess I need to find out:
- what sort of Bill of Sale for an international sale
- how to check if there are liens on the glider
- it is Canadian registered standard certificate, what needs to be don on US side
- pre purchase inspection outside of US
- US import fees
- US taxes
- etc

Any thoughts experience would be appreciated as I am new to this
Thanks Ken

[Richard Livingston]

Ken,

I have no experience with Canada, but recently bought my first glider (partnered with 2 others). Two things I wish I had paid more attention to:
-Make sure the bill of sale includes mention of the trailer, and how much it is valued at, or get a separate bill of sale for the trailer.
-Trailers in US are often Titled in the state they are registered. It can be a headache to Title (and get license plates for) a trailer that does not have a Title. I don't know what Canada does, but try to get as official a document as possible for the trailer as is available, but at minimum a bill of sale listing the trailer and its cost.

You might also make sure you get a Title or similar Canada document for the glider, if any such thing is available. Proving transfer of ownership is a big deal. In the US aircraft are simply registerd with FAA and generally not Titled, as near as I can tell.

Rich L.

[[email protected]]

Ken,
The ship must be de-registered in Canada, which means it’s dropped from Canadian aircraft rolls and its C bumper is removed. Best way to do this is what the FAA calls an “Airworthiness for Export” license. Armed with this, you request US registration including US “N” number. The feds will in due time, license the ship and issue Airworthiness certificate. Get separate bill of sale for trailer. No export fee at this time, but there’s no telling what Mr. Chaos might dream up next!
Enjoy the ride, may take several months,
JJ

[George Haeh]

Before leaving to get glider, arrange insurance effective the day money and documents change hands.

It's generally easier getting a glider and trailer into the US from Canada than the other way around. But don't borrow a plate from your buddies. I've seen customs check VIN against plate – and their disappointment when they matched.

One nasty gotcha is radium dialed instruments. Get rid of them BEFORE crossing into the US. Those big yellow vertical panels at land crossings are radiation detectors. Free disposal in Canada:
https://www.cnl.ca/en/home/environmental-stewardship/national-programs.aspx

Expensive in the US.

Check with your local FSDO and glider A&P what they want to see. Export CofA either direction for a used glider is likely a waste of time and money.

Every state has its own requirements for trailers. You might want to consider registering the trailer in Montana,especially if you are passing through..

Personal property tax is different in every state. Check with local glider owners.

Yes, separate bills of sale for glider and trailer. Temporary plates for trailer are usually easy to obtain. The seller should accompany you to the provincial licensing office.

As in the US the CofR must be returned, in Canada's case to the regional Transport Canada office. Take the CofR to the post office and ExpressPost it to TC along with statement that registration letters removed and code removed from transponder - they now charge $200.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/registering-leasing-aircraft/export-canadian-registered-aircraft.html

A Canadian seller cannot take the glider across the border without customs broker paperwork. He might get hit with a $10,000 fine.

[Mike Reid]

I guess it's because I had the proper paperwork with me, but when I towed a glider from the lower 48 to Alaska in May, neither Canadian nor US customs asked for any paperwork for the glider or trailer. YMMV

Mike

[SF]

It's been a few years but I remember the process as being fairly easy, after you understand it. The aircraft part is fairly straightforward.

The Trailer is a bit tricky. Get a separate bill of sale for the trailer. Keep the Canadian tag on it, take the Canadian title with you. Drive it home, take the Canadian title (registration) & the bill of sale to your local DMV. Get a US tag & title for the trailer. Mail the Canadian tag back to the Seller in Canada so that they can turn it in. Getting a US tag for the trailer, even if you state does not require one, will help you with re-sale.
Most US banks can get you a "Cashiers" check in Canadian funds for your Canadian seller. It's not may not be called a Cashiers check, the bank will know what you need. as I said it's been a while.

Calling the aircraft registration guys at the FAA was helpful. You need the forms (including the Canadian De-Registration docs) & documentation to register the aircraft, and then another set of forms to get an airworthiness inspection & certificate. Looks like most of that is done online now.

Understand everything required before you go to Canada, including making sure you have insurance on the trailer & the glider in advance of taking it home.

[George Haeh]

Canadian banks look askance at US cashier's checks and will often hold funds for some weeks. A bank to bank transfer can be done.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, September 2, 2019 at 9:06:48 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> Canadian banks look askance at US cashier's checks and will often hold funds for some weeks. A bank to bank transfer can be done.

Some of the new online services make it very easy, and low cost too. I use TransferWise to scoot money around between my own USA, New Zealand, and Russian bank accounts frequently. They do the currency exchange at exactly the same up to the minute midrate you see on google (e.g. "30000 cad in usd") and their fee for the actual transfer to someone's bank account is typically half a percent.

I just tried the above example and getting exactly CAD$30000 to someone needs US$22633.91 at a 1.33285 exchange rate and $125.75 fee.

The fee might look smaller if you get a cashier's check at a bank, but would expect that to be more than lost in the worse exchange rate.

[SF]

Canadian funds, drawn from a Canadian bank. Not a cashiers check from a us bank

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 1, 2019 at 9:58:48 PM UTC-7, Mike Reid wrote:
> I guess it's because I had the proper paperwork with me, but when I towed a glider from the lower 48 to Alaska in May, neither Canadian nor US customs asked for any paperwork for the glider or trailer. YMMV
>
> Mike

Mike, what paperwork was needed to move a US SH glider and Cobra trailer from the US to a new owner in Canada?

[2G]

On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 7:43:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, September 1, 2019 at 9:58:48 PM UTC-7, Mike Reid wrote:
> > I guess it's because I had the proper paperwork with me, but when I towed a glider from the lower 48 to Alaska in May, neither Canadian nor US customs asked for any paperwork for the glider or trailer. YMMV
> >
> > Mike
>
> Mike, what paperwork was needed to move a US SH glider and Cobra trailer from the US to a new owner in Canada?

Here is what Transport Canada requires:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/registering-leasing-aircraft/register-aircraft/register-imported-aircraft.html

I believe there may a problem importing an aircraft to Canada registered experimental in the US. Best to review this carefully before proceeding:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/maintenance-aarpe-recreational-menu-2753.htm

Tom

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 11:33:11 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 7:43:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 1, 2019 at 9:58:48 PM UTC-7, Mike Reid wrote:
> > > I guess it's because I had the proper paperwork with me, but when I towed a glider from the lower 48 to Alaska in May, neither Canadian nor US customs asked for any paperwork for the glider or trailer. YMMV
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> > Mike, what paperwork was needed to move a US SH glider and Cobra trailer from the US to a new owner in Canada?
>
> Here is what Transport Canada requires:
>
> https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/aviation/registering-leasing-aircraft/register-aircraft/register-imported-aircraft.html
>
> I believe there may a problem importing an aircraft to Canada registered experimental in the US. Best to review this carefully before proceeding:
>
> https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/maintenance-aarpe-recreational-menu-2753.htm
>
> Tom

For the trailer, here's the website with all the info. https://www.riv.ca/ImporterChecklist.aspx ; also check the "before you import" list on the left side.

[George Haeh]

"I believe there may a problem importing an aircraft to Canada registered experimental in the US. Best to review this carefully before proceeding"

Many factory built gliders in the US are registered Experimental. In my case, I imported an Experimental ASW-20 from the US to Canada where it received a Standard CofA. Later it was sold back to the US where it is now Experimental.

The real thing to watch for is inadequate documentation of any repairs.

Dave Springford coordinates imports. I was happy to use him even after I had already done an import on my own:

http://www.foxonecorp.com/index.php/aircraft-import-brokering

[[email protected]]

The advantage of an Experimental glider, is that the owner can do whatever he likes to it. The disadvantage of an Experimental glider, is that the previous owner did whatever he liked to it.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 2:18:49 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> The advantage of an Experimental glider, is that the owner can do whatever he likes to it. The disadvantage of an Experimental glider, is that the previous owner did whatever he liked to it.


This is one of the most common misunderstandings in US soaring activity.
Sentence One is wrong.
You must read the FAA-issued Operating Limitations for any individual machine to know what may be done by whom to the machine.

Sentence Two is likely correct, multiplied and compounded by each owner since the import. This is the result of the American assertion of "I bought it. It's mine, I can do what I want with it."

That view might apply to cars, motorcycles, jet skis and multiple other toys, but it doesn't apply well to aviation machines.

If you plan to buy a used sailplane in the US, please get a glider-experienced A & P or IA to assist you with a paperwork read through (at the least) before you buy a pig-in-a-poke.

Cindy B

[George Haeh]

Completely agree with Cindy.

Will just add that Canadians need to engage an MD-M (Minister's Delegate - Maintenance) to read over any repair paperwork. MD-Ms are super fussy. It helps a lot if the MD-M knows the repair facility.

[BobW]

> The advantage of an Experimental glider, is that the owner can do whatever
> he likes to it. The disadvantage of an Experimental glider, is that the
> previous owner did whatever he liked to it.

Sheesh. A little oversimplification sure can go a long ways.

Maybe I just happened to come across the above sentiments at a weak moment,
but as someone who owned/flew 3 Experimentally-registered sailplanes
(Concept-70; HP-14; Zuni) over 34 years...and never felt my life was at risk
due to anything associated with those ships *not* having approved type
certificates...and who did a LOT of owner-maintenance (all entirely legally)
over those years - and all logged 'because I thought it was the right thing to
do' (regardless of FARs) - part of me wonders if 'the whole EAA thing' (of
which I've also been a member since 1979) is some sort of mirage.

If it floats your boat to 'go only the ATC-ed route' have at it! But to snark
at those folks who *enjoy* 'messing about with things experimental' as
lunatic-fringe-sorts, says a whole lot more about the expresser of those
opinions than it does about the (generally responsible) practitioners of 'the
experimental arts.' Think Stan Hall, Jim Marske, Dick Schreder, George
Applebay, Wil Schuemann, Burt Rutan, et (many-other-'nameless') al...

Perfection ain't an option when it comes to humans, as casual reading of (say)
a year's worth of NTSB Final Reports of general aviation fatal accidents of
ONLY ATC-registered airplanes (and gliders) will unequivocally show.
Suggesting ATC-registered airplane/glider owners are definitionally 'more
responsible' than owners of Experimentally-registered airplanes/gliders is
well beyond fatuous. Please...spare us all.

There - I feel better now!

Bob W.

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