How much does a lost aircraft logbook effect resale value?

[[email protected]]

I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.

[Roy B.]

Over the years I've been in the sport (46 now) I've seen a fair number of gliders sold without log books, or with "reconstructed logbooks" etc. I also once saw a bank repossess a glider and the owner "ransom" the logs for $500 to the bank's new purchaser. A lot depends on the glider type (does it have a low maximum life limit?), desirability of the glider and sophistication of the purchaser. Probably a 10% value reduction is a good estimate. For me - with the glider you describe - a bigger issue would be potential water and vermin damage, brittle tubing and similar age/storage issues. I think the "Ds" were a little more saleable than the flap only version. You may also find this link helpful:
https://www.traficom.fi/sites/default/files/media/file/22742-PIK-20D_Fatigue_evaluation_20151115.pdf
Good luck
ROY

[Duster[_2_]]

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.

Though it won't replace a missing logbook, the FAA maintains a database of each aircraft on registration, bills of sale and some AD's, STC's, etc. that require reportable compliance of modifications. They'll send you a paper copy or CD ($10). Who knows, it might fill in some missing blanks.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/copies_aircraft_records/

[[email protected]]

In this particular case I say hardly at all - no life limit specified by PIK? Someone needs to make an affidavit of estimated time.

[2G]

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 4:30:01 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.

How do you establish the total time w/o logbooks? Most gliders have life-limits that are just not guidelines. Personally, I wouldn't touch it, but if you do, discount the value by 50% because you will need it when it comes time to sell.

[Cookie]

Look up "theory of the greater fool"

Glider without log books is a big problem for the owner.

If you buy this glider, the previous owner not only got rid of that big problem, but made his problem YOUR PROBLEM, and even got you to pay for it!


Cookie




On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 1:22:36 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 4:30:01 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.
>
> How do you establish the total time w/o logbooks? Most gliders have life-limits that are just not guidelines. Personally, I wouldn't touch it, but if you do, discount the value by 50% because you will need it when it comes time to sell.

[Charlie Quebec]

I don’t know how you do things in the US, but here in Australia, the yearly inspection paperwork known as a form 2, must be returned to the GFA, and this contains an entry including TTIS hours and launches at each inspection. I would have thought this would be standard practice in a responsible airworthiness regimen.

[Eric Munk]

https://www.traficom.fi/sites/default/files/media/file/19736-PIK-20D-FIP_Rev0_20151217.pdf

Fatigue life for the PIK-20D is 65,000 hours, with 5,000 interval
inspections for aircraft that have over 10,000 hours.

Don't think that the hours flown should present a problem...

[Bob Youngblood]

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:30:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.

Personally I would not bee too concerned about a lost log. You can start all over and create a new log going forward. A good inspection of the glider should allow you the ability to determine the overall condition and other variables. Don't give up on finding the logs. the old owner stashed them away and the family may just find them. It happened to me recently with a Pawnee, and I did get all the logs.
Discount the price a bit and move forward with a good inspection and enjoy that glider. Find the past couple of owners or someone who can give you details on how much the bird flew and try to determine approximate time.

[2G]

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 5:33:06 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:30:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.
>
> Personally I would not bee too concerned about a lost log. You can start all over and create a new log going forward. A good inspection of the glider should allow you the ability to determine the overall condition and other variables. Don't give up on finding the logs. the old owner stashed them away and the family may just find them. It happened to me recently with a Pawnee, and I did get all the logs.
> Discount the price a bit and move forward with a good inspection and enjoy that glider. Find the past couple of owners or someone who can give you details on how much the bird flew and try to determine approximate time.

This all depends upon what you mean by "a bit." I would suggest "a lot," like 50%.

[Cookie]

why not just buy a glider WITH log books? Avoid the issue altogether.

With a no logbook glider...the first annual will be "interesting" as the inspector needs to somehow verify that all AD's have been complied with. Might run into time and money??

Cookie





On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:30:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.

[2G]

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 6:47:23 PM UTC-7, Cookie wrote:
> why not just buy a glider WITH log books? Avoid the issue altogether.
>
> With a no logbook glider...the first annual will be "interesting" as the inspector needs to somehow verify that all AD's have been complied with. Might run into time and money??
>
> Cookie
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:30:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I've been approached by an estate of a former club member who's glider is stored at my club. Its a 1978 PIK20-D. They have gone through his entire belongings and have not found any logbooks for the glider. Our club records indicate the glider has not flown since 2003. Its been at the club since at least 1998. We have gone through the plane and trailer and no logs. Its a certified aircraft and our local AI said there is a process to start a new log book after an inspection. The question I ask is how much value is lost with no history of the airframe? I'm trying to help the estate come up with a reasonable value.

That would clearly be my preference (and buying new is even better), but I understand that many are less fortunate than I and might be inclined to trade that risk for something that is within their budget.

Tom

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:12:39 AM UTC-6, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> I don’t know how you do things in the US, but here in Australia, the yearly inspection paperwork known as a form 2, must be returned to the GFA, and this contains an entry including TTIS hours and launches at each inspection. I would have thought this would be standard practice in a responsible airworthiness regimen.

Since our SSA has nothing to do with airworthiness and inspections, we don't collect anything like that, nor does the FAA. However, some inspectors keep a copy or log of their annual and condition inspections and work done, so it may be possible to reconstruct a reasonable logbook if a glider was in a locality for much of its life to date.

Frank Whiteley