Re: FAR Q: "IR" needed for IFR in an N-reg aircraft?

[Julian Scarfe]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...

> I have the FAR/AIM 2005 and while this should be in there somewhere, I
> can't find it.
>
> The rule I am looking for is that an "instrument rating" is required
> to operate an N registered aircraft under IFR, and this rule applies
> worldwide.

FAR 61.3

"(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or
in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil
aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that person--
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot
authorization issued under this part in that person's physical
possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the
privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the
aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license
issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used;
....
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a
civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required),
and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any
airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;"

There's no territorial limitation mentioned. Whether the US has
extraterritorial jurisdiction over foreign nationals is another issue, but
most states, including the UK, delegate the requirement to the state of
registry, which makes it applicable.

> Also, if it is in there, can anyone offer opinions on whether
> "instrument rating" means an FAA IR, any ICAO IR, or that this is not
> clearly specified.

My belief is that it would be a reasonable interpretation of 61.3(e) that if
the pilot's licence used is a foreign one, the IR may be on that licence.

Julian

[Chris]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Julian Scarfe" > wrote
>
>>> Also, if it is in there, can anyone offer opinions on whether
>>> "instrument rating" means an FAA IR, any ICAO IR, or that this is not
>>> clearly specified.
>>
>>My belief is that it would be a reasonable interpretation of 61.3(e) that
>>if
>>the pilot's licence used is a foreign one, the IR may be on that licence.
>
> Thank you Julian - I am sure you can see what I am getting at. The UK
> IMC Rating is an "instrument rating" but it is non-ICAO and it
> excludes Class A.
>
> I have it in writing from the CAA that the validity of the IMC-R is
> not limited to G-reg aircraft but they say the FAA might object. The
> question is whether an N-reg plane flown in the UK by a UK PPL with an
> IMC-R would be OK.
>
> Some people have offered a view that the "instrument rating" mentioned
> in the FARs must be an ICAO one, but I am not sure where exactly that
> interpretation comes from, especially as the flight in question
> *would* be legal in a G-reg aircraft.

The Instrument Rating referred to in the FAR is either the ICAO one or the
FAA one. However to use the ICAO rating in the US and have it included on
your FAA 61.75 certificate means taking the appropriate knowledge test for
ICAO holders. Outside the US the conditions of using the IR might vary
depending on the rules of the specific territory you are flying in. So
using a N reg aircraft in Singapore say with JAR certificates might be
difficult, but then it might be OK.

The UK IMC rating is not an instrument rating. The simple test is whether
the IMC confers the same privileges of the IR and it does not. Specifically
IMC holders cannot fly in Class A airspace.

The definitions of flying IFR vary between the US and the UK anyway. A basic
PPL can fly IFR but he cannot fly IMC. In the UK IFR only refers to the
flight rules not about weather conditions so that means setting the
altimeter to 1013mb above 3000 ft , the quadrantal rules, obstacle clearance
requirements etc.

[Julian Scarfe]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...

> Thank you Julian - I am sure you can see what I am getting at. The UK
> IMC Rating is an "instrument rating" but it is non-ICAO and it
> excludes Class A.

No, I didn't figure out that that was what you were getting at. I though it
was about whether a JAA/IR holder could exercise the IR privileges on an
N-reg.

> I have it in writing from the CAA that the validity of the IMC-R is
> not limited to G-reg aircraft but they say the FAA might object. The
> question is whether an N-reg plane flown in the UK by a UK PPL with an
> IMC-R would be OK.
>
> Some people have offered a view that the "instrument rating" mentioned
> in the FARs must be an ICAO one, but I am not sure where exactly that
> interpretation comes from, especially as the flight in question
> *would* be legal in a G-reg aircraft.

I don't think there's much doubt that an IMC rating does not satisfy the
requirements of 61.3(e). However, there's an issue of whether or not
61.3(e) is relevant. It could certainly be argued that 61.3(a) permits you
to use a foreign licence including its full privileges when flying in that
foreign country. And there remains the issue of whether the FARs apply to
non-US nationals in their own territory except as delegated by local law.
(Nigel would argue that they do, I think.)

Julian

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:30:18 -0000, "Chris" > wrote:

>A basic PPL can fly IFR but he cannot fly IMC.

Not under US rules.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Chris]

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:30:18 -0000, "Chris" > wrote:
>
>>A basic PPL can fly IFR but he cannot fly IMC.
>
> Not under US rules.

If your read the rest of the post you would have seen that I specifically
excluded the US

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:58:34 -0000, "Chris" > wrote:

>If your read the rest of the post you would have seen that I specifically
>excluded the US

I did read your entire post, but the country to which you referred was not
clear to me when you wrote "A basic PPL can fly IFR but he cannot fly IMC",
so just a bit of clarification, in case others were also confused.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)