Standard Cirrus 1973 (Grob) no water ballast

[Ian Simmonds]

Hi all

I am now the owner of a lovely 1973 Grob built Standard Cirrus - a thing of beauty.

What intrigues me is that the the glider has no water ballast in the wings and looks as if it came straight from the factory like this. No connector in the wing root and nothing in the cockpit to indicate there was ever water ballast functionality.

I always assumed that a run of manufactured gliders such as Std Cirrus would have water ballast in the wings across the whole range, but obviously not.

Has anyone else come across this?

Very curious.

Thanks for any info.

All the best
Ian

[[email protected]]

Wikipedia says water ballast came to standard class in '72. Maybe this one was commissioned before the rule was adopted. Alternatively a previous owner may have removed it.

DT

[[email protected]]

According to my copy of "Segelflugzeuge vom Wolf zum Discus" by Peter Selinger, water ballast tanks were offered as an option by Schempp-Hirth since July 4th 1971. I suppose Grob followed the same policy.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 29, 2019 at 5:34:08 PM UTC+2, wrote:
> According to my copy of "Segelflugzeuge vom Wolf zum Discus" by Peter Selinger, water ballast tanks were offered as an option by Schempp-Hirth since July 4th 1971. I suppose Grob followed the same policy.

My father used to own Std Cirrus #11 - 1969. It was fitted with water ballast.

Clinton

[Tony[_5_]]

The earli Cirri did not come from the factory with ballast. Many were retrofitted in the field with bags.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 08:43:16 -0700, Tony wrote:

> The earli Cirri did not come from the factory with ballast. Many were
> retrofitted in the field with bags.

Yep. Initial Standard class rules said no water ballast and no
retractable landing gear. I don't know whether the rule changes to allow
water ballast and retractable gear were simultaneous or not.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Ian Simmonds]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 5:19:18 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 08:43:16 -0700, Tony wrote:
>
> > The earli Cirri did not come from the factory with ballast. Many were
> > retrofitted in the field with bags.
>
> Yep. Initial Standard class rules said no water ballast and no
> retractable landing gear. I don't know whether the rule changes to allow
> water ballast and retractable gear were simultaneous or not.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Many thanks for all your replies.

I have contacted Schemp Hirth as well to see if they can shed any information on it.

I will post here if I find out any more nuggets of information.

All the best
Ian

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 13:37:34 -0700, Ian Simmonds wrote:

> I have contacted Schemp Hirth as well to see if they can shed any
> information on it.
>
According to Wikipedia, so this MUST be right!, the Standard Class
started in the late '50s, so think of a Ka6 as the archetypical original
spec Standard Class glider.

The rules changed to allow retracts in 1970 and water ballast in 1972.

My 201 Libelle was built in late '69 so must have been one of the first
to have retracts fitted as standard and was not fitted for water ballast,
which is just as well since my wing skins are glass/balsa/glass laminates.

However, it is a little odd that your '73 Std Cirrus didn't originally
carry water. After all, it was built after water ballast became legal for
the class in 1972. Maybe, as somebody said, it was an optional extra?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Nick Gilbert[_2_]]

Schempp-Hirth TN 278-3 indicates that from serial numbers 1-134 water ballast was optional, and standard equipment from 135 onwards.

Nick.

[Nick Gilbert[_2_]]

Having said this, yours is likely later serial number than 135 & doesn't have water ballast. Presumably if a customer ordering a brand new Cirrus stated that they didn't want water, Schempp would comply.

Cheers,
Nick.



On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 10:17:51 AM UTC+9:30, Nick Gilbert wrote:
> Schempp-Hirth TN 278-3 indicates that from serial numbers 1-134 water ballast was optional, and standard equipment from 135 onwards.
>
> Nick.

[Ian Simmonds]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 1:51:02 AM UTC+1, Nick Gilbert wrote:
> Having said this, yours is likely later serial number than 135 & doesn't have water ballast. Presumably if a customer ordering a brand new Cirrus stated that they didn't want water, Schempp would comply.
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 10:17:51 AM UTC+9:30, Nick Gilbert wrote:
> > Schempp-Hirth TN 278-3 indicates that from serial numbers 1-134 water ballast was optional, and standard equipment from 135 onwards.
> >
> > Nick.

Hi Nick

My works number (I believe that is what it is called) is 349G, however no water ballast.

I guess its like ordering a car with optional extras!

It doesn't seem to have really affected her performance though — looking through her paperwork she has numerous 500k, 300k, 100k flights and will probably be more aircraft than I'll be able to handle.

The gelcoat is absolutely on point too - wings and fuselage looking almost brand new, with just a few light scratches underneath where she has landed out a few times, and on areas where wings/tail connect

I've heard some people say that the Grob gel coat was superior — not sure about that, perhaps mine has just been cherished.

:o)

Out of interest, although its A Schemp Hirth design, it was built by Grob. Who would be better placed to tell me about it do you think, Grob or Schemp?

All the best

Ian

[Eric Munk]

>Out of interest, although its A Schemp Hirth design, it was built by
Grob.
>=
>Who would be better placed to tell me about it do you think, Grob or
>Schemp=

Schempp-Hirth is the TC-holder of the Standard Cirrus. Best bet.

Grob has sold the tc-holdership of its gliders (which never included the
Standard Cirrus, even though they built them under license) to LTB Lindner.

[Nick Gilbert[_2_]]

As Eric said - definitely Schempp Hirth.

For what it's worth, one of the most well known Standard Cirrii is VH-GZR, flown by Ingo Renner at the 1974 Worlds at Waikerie in Australia, and the subject of the movie "Zulu Romeo, Good Start". This is a Grob build

Cheers,
Nick.

[Eric Munk]

At 20:43 01 October 2019, Nick Gilbert wrote:
>As Eric said - definitely Schempp Hirth.
>
>For what it's worth, one of the most well known Standard Cirrii is
VH-GZR,
>flown by Ingo Renner at the 1974 Worlds at Waikerie in
Australia, and the
>subject of the movie "Zulu Romeo, Good Start". This is a Grob
build
>
>Cheers,
>Nick.
>
Flies very well too, that particular Cirrus.

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-7, Eric Munk wrote:
> At 20:43 01 October 2019, Nick Gilbert wrote:
> >As Eric said - definitely Schempp Hirth.
> >
> >For what it's worth, one of the most well known Standard Cirrii is
> VH-GZR,
> >flown by Ingo Renner at the 1974 Worlds at Waikerie in
> Australia, and the
> >subject of the movie "Zulu Romeo, Good Start". This is a Grob
> build
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Nick.
> >
> Flies very well too, that particular Cirrus.

Attila makes it go well.
Jim

[[email protected]]

My Cirrus is one of the early ones (1969, s/n 9) and it originally did not have water ballast when delivered. It was added at a later date per a factory supplied mod kit according to the records. This consisted of bags in the wings and dump valve in the lower fuselage. The maximum gross weight was increased from 728 to 860lbs (wet). Unfortunately, the mod was removed long before I acquired the sailplane. It would have been nice to have flown it with water ballast but it does very well without.

[Ian Simmonds]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 9:43:55 PM UTC+1, Nick Gilbert wrote:
> As Eric said - definitely Schempp Hirth.
>
> For what it's worth, one of the most well known Standard Cirrii is VH-GZR, flown by Ingo Renner at the 1974 Worlds at Waikerie in Australia, and the subject of the movie "Zulu Romeo, Good Start". This is a Grob build
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.

Thanks Nick

I looked this video up on youtube and just watched it — fantastic, loads of Cirri to be seen.

Thanks :o)

Best
Ian

[Ian Simmonds]

Just a little update for those that are interested in the 1973 Cirrus without water ballast in the wings.

I had the following email from a Schempp Hirth employee:

Still none the wiser!



Dear Mr. Simmonds,

after checking our drawing list are all of the Standart Cirrus was built with water balast into the wings. I can´t see why you glider was built without water balast.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards

René Dank

Kundendienstleitung / Customer Service Direktor
Schempp-Hirth Service GmbH
Krebenstr. 25
73230 Kirchheim unter Teck