Best Oxygen Setup?

[ProfJ]

Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.

[AS]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 10:12:34 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
> Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.

I am using a Mountain High EDS O2D2 in my two-seater and I have used it now for four summers in Moriarty. Two of us can fly several days in a row at altitudes up to 17,999ft ;-) using canuals. We never felt any signs of hypoxia. The operation of the O2D2 is straight forward - more or less idiot-proof.
Buy the biggest tank you can fit into your Ogar and still be within the CG and weight limits.

Uli
'AS'

[ProfJ]

On Monday, 30 September 2019 21:17:03 UTC-6, AS wrote:
> On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 10:12:34 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
> > Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.
>
> I am using a Mountain High EDS O2D2 in my two-seater and I have used it now for four summers in Moriarty. Two of us can fly several days in a row at altitudes up to 17,999ft ;-) using canuals. We never felt any signs of hypoxia. The operation of the O2D2 is straight forward - more or less idiot-proof.
> Buy the biggest tank you can fit into your Ogar and still be within the CG and weight limits.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

Thanks Uli! That was more or less what I had concluded but really nice to get the experienced confirmation.

[AS]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 11:21:30 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
> On Monday, 30 September 2019 21:17:03 UTC-6, AS wrote:
> > On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 10:12:34 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
> > > Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.
> >
> > I am using a Mountain High EDS O2D2 in my two-seater and I have used it now for four summers in Moriarty. Two of us can fly several days in a row at altitudes up to 17,999ft ;-) using canuals. We never felt any signs of hypoxia. The operation of the O2D2 is straight forward - more or less idiot-proof.
> > Buy the biggest tank you can fit into your Ogar and still be within the CG and weight limits.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Thanks Uli! That was more or less what I had concluded but really nice to get the experienced confirmation.

Forgot to mention: my glider is also the side-by-side configuration, so the EDS is installed between the seats on the center console in full view of both users, which I think is a huge advantage.
Uli
'AS'

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

ProfJ wrote on 9/30/2019 8:21 PM:
> On Monday, 30 September 2019 21:17:03 UTC-6, AS wrote:
>> On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 10:12:34 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
>>> Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.
>>
>> I am using a Mountain High EDS O2D2 in my two-seater and I have used it now for four summers in Moriarty. Two of us can fly several days in a row at altitudes up to 17,999ft ;-) using canuals. We never felt any signs of hypoxia. The operation of the O2D2 is straight forward - more or less idiot-proof.
>> Buy the biggest tank you can fit into your Ogar and still be within the CG and weight limits.
>>
>> Uli
>> 'AS'
>
> Thanks Uli! That was more or less what I had concluded but really nice to get the experienced confirmation.

I use O2D2 also, with a 45 cu ft carbon fiber tank in my Phoenix. It's easy to
install, it works well, it's easy to use, and my wife doesn't mind wearing the
cannula.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Tango Whisky]

I used to have a Calif as well, and I managed to install a 10 liter cylinder between/behind the seats. With the EDS, that goes a long way ;-)

[2G]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-7, ProfJ wrote:
> Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.

The "limit" is 12,500, not 14,000. You can go to 14k for 30 min ONCE per flight.
Realistically, be on O2 above 10k for YOUR OWN SAFETY.

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

You might get some helpful info from this presentation. It gives some details on the three major types of O2 delivery systems. http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#oxygen

Personally, being a flat lander, when I go out West I begin breathing O2 as soon as I am strapped in. This is way beyond what the FAA requires but it sure beats getting headaches at altitude...or worse.

I to use a Mountain High system (O2D1). Sometimes they have the older refurbished models for sale cheap - see > https://www.mhoxygen.com/closeout-refurbished/.

- John OHM Ω

[Ken Fixter[_3_]]

At 04:45 01 October 2019, 2G wrote:
>On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-7, ProfJ wrote:
>> Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual)
>her=
>e. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school
>tourin=
>g motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in
>SW=
> Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft
>"l=
>imits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride
>my=
> mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but
>I=
> guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen
>s=
>etup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy
>acc=
>ess to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider,
>qui=
>te a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the
>glid=
>er didn't give you a clue.
>
>The "limit" is 12,500, not 14,000. You can go to 14k for 30 min ONCE per
>fl=
>ight.
>Realistically, be on O2 above 10k for YOUR OWN SAFETY.
>
>> Hi John
> The Ogar is not short on cargo space and in a good C of G position with
built in anchor points as a ex ogar owner I would say the instalation of O2
cylinder will be easy I can't remember the cargo weight limit but it was
generous.
>KF

[AS]

On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 12:09:07 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> I used to have a Calif as well, and I managed to install a 10 liter cylinder between/behind the seats. With the EDS, that goes a long way ;-)

Really? Which Serial # did you own?
I got the original Caproni O2 brackets and installed the longest aluminum tank that fits through the main bulkhead between the seats. I can turn on and off the tank, see the gauge and the operate the EDS. Nothing beats a roomy cockpit! ;-)

Uli
'AS'

[Tango Whisky]

Le mardi 1 octobre 2019 14:31:00 UTC+2, AS a écritÂ*:
> On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 12:09:07 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > I used to have a Calif as well, and I managed to install a 10 liter cylinder between/behind the seats. With the EDS, that goes a long way ;-)
>
> Really? Which Serial # did you own?
> I got the original Caproni O2 brackets and installed the longest aluminum tank that fits through the main bulkhead between the seats. I can turn on and off the tank, see the gauge and the operate the EDS. Nothing beats a roomy cockpit! ;-)
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

I owned S/N 38, F-CEUD (which I changed into D-6600 upon acquisition). Flew it for about 600 hrs from 1998 to 2005 in the French Alps. Absolute fantastic glider, very fond memories ;-)
The tank I installed did just fit through the main bulkhead and reached all the way back to the rear bulkhead. I installed a kind of swing at the rear bulkhead on which the bottom of the tank rested (and fixed by the horizontal part underneath the central wing section). In the main bulkhead, the top of the tank was fixed by a trap obtained from Gomolzig such that the valve protruded into the cockpit. Removal and installation could be done with the wings mounted by guiding it via the access hole above/behind the main bulkhead. And no, I never showed this to a German inspector :-D But as I said, 10 liters at 200 bars do last quite some time...

[Roy Garden]

I do a reasonable amount of altitude flying here in Scotland.
I live at sea level, smoke, drink profusely (has health benefits . . some)
Get any MH EDS system, you really don't have to go as big on a bottle as
you'd think. If you have easy access to O2, go "medium" on bottle
selection, and steel for the bottle if weight is not an issue.

I routinely get 30+ hours on a very small bottle and that is based on
wearing the system at the launch point (at sea level) to counter hangovers,

then keeping it on all flight (as it is zero hassle and I'm a lazy
b'stard)
The cannula system works very well up to fL200 and allows smoking whilst
flying . . (I'm not at all sure it's rated for it, but it does work)

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, September 30, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-7, ProfJ wrote:
> Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.

Mountain High EDS systems

http://www.craggyaero.com/O2main.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

You smoke while using pure oxygen??? This must be a joke.

[Paul B[_2_]]

On Wednesday, 2 October 2019 07:59:10 UTC+10, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> You smoke while using pure oxygen??? This must be a joke.

I guess he must synchronise the puffs from the cannula and the puffs from the cigarette. :)

Paul

[kinsell]

On 10/1/19 3:59 PM, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> You smoke while using pure oxygen??? This must be a joke.
>


Proves once again Darwinism isn't perfect.

[[email protected]]

Many moons ago when I was a junior hospital doctor in a chest ward the preferred oxygen mask for low concentration O2 was the "Edinburgh mask" which had a circular hole in the front with the O2 nozzle entering at its lower circumference. Some of the chest patients loved it because they could smoke through the hole. As was demonstrated to me by a marginally less junior doctor, if you held the lit cig tip directly in the O2 outlet flow it just glowed brighter. Oxygen doesn't burn, it burns.

[ProfJ]

On Monday, 30 September 2019 20:12:34 UTC-6, ProfJ wrote:
> Ok, looking for the wisdom of the crowd (or even just the individual) here. I want to get an oxygen setup for my glider. It's an old-school touring motor glider (SZD-45 Ogar) but I like to soar it anyway, and I live in SW Colorado so I am regularly bumping my head on the 12,500ft and 14,000ft "limits". (Why "limits"? Well my house is at 9,000' and I regularly ride my mountain bike up to 12,000 ft without getting notably out of breath, but I guess you have to take the rules seriously.) So: what is the best oxygen setup for western soaring, mostly sub-5hr flights, two seat glider, easy access to an oxygen distributor, easy retro-fit to an experimental glider, quite a lot of space in the cockpit? Oh, and budget friendly, in case the glider didn't give you a clue.

Thanks to everybody for the helpful replies, much appreciated.

[Dan Marotta]

You are correct.Â* Oxygen doesn't burn.Â* But it really supports combustion!

When I was in AF flight school (early 70s, so everyone smoked), they
warned us about smoking with a mask dangling along side one's face.
Seems one fighter jock had his mask catch fire (maybe while lighting up,
maybe due to a cabin depressurization causing the O2 system to go into
pressure mode, who knows?).Â* The point was that he suffered serious
burns to his face.

Personally I never felt the need to smoke during a 2-hour flight with a
pressure demand mask and regulator.

On 10/2/2019 12:09 AM, wrote:
> Many moons ago when I was a junior hospital doctor in a chest ward the preferred oxygen mask for low concentration O2 was the "Edinburgh mask" which had a circular hole in the front with the O2 nozzle entering at its lower circumference. Some of the chest patients loved it because they could smoke through the hole. As was demonstrated to me by a marginally less junior doctor, if you held the lit cig tip directly in the O2 outlet flow it just glowed brighter. Oxygen doesn't burn, it burns.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 4:38:10 PM UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> You are correct.Â* Oxygen doesn't burn.Â* But it really supports combustion!
>
> When I was in AF flight school (early 70s, so everyone smoked), they
> warned us about smoking with a mask dangling along side one's face.
> Seems one fighter jock had his mask catch fire (maybe while lighting up,
> maybe due to a cabin depressurization causing the O2 system to go into
> pressure mode, who knows?).Â* The point was that he suffered serious
> burns to his face.
>
> Personally I never felt the need to smoke during a 2-hour flight with a
> pressure demand mask and regulator.
>


An oxygen mask that combusts on exposure to oxygen would be a bit of a design flaw! There will have been something else that ignited before the mask. In the context of medical or general aviation oxygen use I would be far more concerned about oxygen exposure to petroleum based products (e.g. vaseline, Vicks, Chapstick on the face) than smoking

https://www.thoughtco.com/flammability-of-oxygen-608783

[Dan Marotta]

As I said in my original post:Â* The pilot was either lighting up or the
regulator gave a blast of oxygen, maybe while he was taking a drag.Â* The
mask did not combust spontaneously and I never said such.

If I had to guess, I'd say he was lighting up and, just after removing
the mask, there would be pure oxygen within the mask.Â* It would be easy
to light.

On 10/2/2019 10:17 AM, wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 4:38:10 PM UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> You are correct.Â* Oxygen doesn't burn.Â* But it really supports combustion!
>>
>> When I was in AF flight school (early 70s, so everyone smoked), they
>> warned us about smoking with a mask dangling along side one's face.
>> Seems one fighter jock had his mask catch fire (maybe while lighting up,
>> maybe due to a cabin depressurization causing the O2 system to go into
>> pressure mode, who knows?).Â* The point was that he suffered serious
>> burns to his face.
>>
>> Personally I never felt the need to smoke during a 2-hour flight with a
>> pressure demand mask and regulator.
>>
>
> An oxygen mask that combusts on exposure to oxygen would be a bit of a design flaw! There will have been something else that ignited before the mask. In the context of medical or general aviation oxygen use I would be far more concerned about oxygen exposure to petroleum based products (e.g. vaseline, Vicks, Chapstick on the face) than smoking
>
> https://www.thoughtco.com/flammability-of-oxygen-608783

--
Dan, 5J

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:38:10 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> You are correct.Â* Oxygen doesn't burn.Â* But it really supports combustion!
>
> When I was in AF flight school (early 70s, so everyone smoked), they
> warned us about smoking with a mask dangling along side one's face.
> Seems one fighter jock had his mask catch fire (maybe while lighting up,
> maybe due to a cabin depressurization causing the O2 system to go into
> pressure mode, who knows?).Â* The point was that he suffered serious
> burns to his face.
>
> Personally I never felt the need to smoke during a 2-hour flight with a
> pressure demand mask and regulator.
>
> On 10/2/2019 12:09 AM, wrote:
> > Many moons ago when I was a junior hospital doctor in a chest ward the preferred oxygen mask for low concentration O2 was the "Edinburgh mask" which had a circular hole in the front with the O2 nozzle entering at its lower circumference. Some of the chest patients loved it because they could smoke through the hole. As was demonstrated to me by a marginally less junior doctor, if you held the lit cig tip directly in the O2 outlet flow it just glowed brighter. Oxygen doesn't burn, it burns.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

I've seen this twice in my career so far. Both times the person was smoking while oxygen was being administered through a nasal cannula. In one case, the cigarette actually exploded, sending the person the the ICU burn ward with 3rd degree burns to the face. NOT PRETTY!!!

The oxygen causes accelerated combustion of the tobacco, resulting in a flash of flame that can cause serious injury. I imagine this happens while they are taking a drag, and not just having it passively smolder in the presence of higher oxygen concentration though.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 11:59:20 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:38:10 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > You are correct.Â* Oxygen doesn't burn.Â* But it really supports combustion!
> >
> > When I was in AF flight school (early 70s, so everyone smoked), they
> > warned us about smoking with a mask dangling along side one's face.
> > Seems one fighter jock had his mask catch fire (maybe while lighting up,
> > maybe due to a cabin depressurization causing the O2 system to go into
> > pressure mode, who knows?).Â* The point was that he suffered serious
> > burns to his face.
> >
> > Personally I never felt the need to smoke during a 2-hour flight with a
> > pressure demand mask and regulator.
> >
> > On 10/2/2019 12:09 AM, wrote:
> > > Many moons ago when I was a junior hospital doctor in a chest ward the preferred oxygen mask for low concentration O2 was the "Edinburgh mask" which had a circular hole in the front with the O2 nozzle entering at its lower circumference. Some of the chest patients loved it because they could smoke through the hole. As was demonstrated to me by a marginally less junior doctor, if you held the lit cig tip directly in the O2 outlet flow it just glowed brighter. Oxygen doesn't burn, it burns.
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> I've seen this twice in my career so far. Both times the person was smoking while oxygen was being administered through a nasal cannula. In one case, the cigarette actually exploded, sending the person the the ICU burn ward with 3rd degree burns to the face. NOT PRETTY!!!
>
> The oxygen causes accelerated combustion of the tobacco, resulting in a flash of flame that can cause serious injury. I imagine this happens while they are taking a drag, and not just having it passively smolder in the presence of higher oxygen concentration though.

Natural selection at work.

[Jonathon May]

At 15:20 03 October 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 11:59:20 PM UTC-7, John
Foster wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:38:10 AM UTC-6, Dan
Marotta wrote:
>> > You are correct.=C2=A0 Oxygen doesn't burn.=C2=A0 But it
really
>support=
>s combustion!
>> >=20
>> > When I was in AF flight school (early 70s, so everyone
smoked), they=20
>> > warned us about smoking with a mask dangling along side
one's face.=20
>> > Seems one fighter jock had his mask catch fire (maybe while
lighting
>up=
>,=20
>> > maybe due to a cabin depressurization causing the O2 system
to go into=
>=20
>> > pressure mode, who knows?).=C2=A0 The point was that he
suffered
>seriou=
>s=20
>> > burns to his face.
>> >=20
>> > Personally I never felt the need to smoke during a 2-hour
flight with
>a=
>=20
>> > pressure demand mask and regulator.
>> >=20
>> > On 10/2/2019 12:09 AM, wrote:
>> > > Many moons ago when I was a junior hospital doctor in a
chest ward
>th=
>e preferred oxygen mask for low concentration O2 was the
"Edinburgh mask"
>w=
>hich had a circular hole in the front with the O2 nozzle entering at
its
>lo=
>wer circumference. Some of the chest patients loved it because
they could
>=
>smoke through the hole. As was demonstrated to me by a
marginally less
>jun=
>ior doctor, if you held the lit cig tip directly in the O2 outlet flow it
>j=
>ust glowed brighter. Oxygen doesn't burn, it burns.
>> >=20
>> > --=20
>> > Dan, 5J
>>=20
>> I've seen this twice in my career so far. Both times the person
was
>smok=
>ing while oxygen was being administered through a nasal cannula.
In one
>ca=
>se, the cigarette actually exploded, sending the person the the
ICU burn
>wa=
>rd with 3rd degree burns to the face. NOT PRETTY!!!
>>=20
>> The oxygen causes accelerated combustion of the tobacco,
resulting in a
>f=
>lash of flame that can cause serious injury. I imagine this
happens while
>=
>they are taking a drag, and not just having it passively smolder in
the
>pre=
>sence of higher oxygen concentration though.
>
>Natural selection at work. =20


I have been using a Dive type cylinder because they are easier to
get re filled.
Last Saturday I was flying with the bottle on but the regulator off
above a ridge trying to connect to the wave system.
About 1 hour in and 2700ft asl there was a loud pop and bottle
pressure O2 started blowing into the cockpit .
I could not turn the bottle off so I opened the DV window put a
Pan call out and got it back on the glider field in about 3 minuets .
I have never been so scared ,and I have loads of field landings and
thousands of hours in gliders.
I blame it on lack of maintenance and use, the cylinders has been
sitting in the glider since March turned off while I flew thermals in
the UK.
My bad just need the bottle re-filling and probably a new O ring.
>

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathon May wrote on 10/3/2019 9:55 AM:
>
> I have been using a Dive type cylinder because they are easier to
> get re filled.
> Last Saturday I was flying with the bottle on but the regulator off
> above a ridge trying to connect to the wave system.
> About 1 hour in and 2700ft asl there was a loud pop and bottle
> pressure O2 started blowing into the cockpit .
> I could not turn the bottle off so I opened the DV window put a
> Pan call out and got it back on the glider field in about 3 minuets .
> I have never been so scared ,and I have loads of field landings and
> thousands of hours in gliders.
> I blame it on lack of maintenance and use, the cylinders has been
> sitting in the glider since March turned off while I flew thermals in
> the UK.
> My bad just need the bottle re-filling and probably a new O ring.

What is a Dive type cylinder, and why is it easier to get it refilled with oxygen?

What failed and caused the pop?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Jonathon May]

At 18:22 03 October 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Jonathon May wrote on 10/3/2019 9:55 AM:
>>
>> I have been using a Dive type cylinder because they are easier
to
>> get re filled.
>> Last Saturday I was flying with the bottle on but the regulator
off
>> above a ridge trying to connect to the wave system.
>> About 1 hour in and 2700ft asl there was a loud pop and bottle
>> pressure O2 started blowing into the cockpit .
>> I could not turn the bottle off so I opened the DV window put a
>> Pan call out and got it back on the glider field in about 3
minuets .
>> I have never been so scared ,and I have loads of field landings
and
>> thousands of hours in gliders.
>> I blame it on lack of maintenance and use, the cylinders has
been
>> sitting in the glider since March turned off while I flew thermals
in
>> the UK.
>> My bad just need the bottle re-filling and probably a new O ring.
>
>What is a Dive type cylinder, and why is it easier to get it refilled
with
>oxygen?
>
>What failed and caused the pop?
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us"
to email
>me)
>- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-
the-guide-1
>

I assume the O ring displaced,I took it off and it sealed OK on the
ground, but its going to be checked before I use it again I assure
you.

Dive cylinder has a square top with an outlet and 2 indexing pins.
The regulator does over the top with a yoke and a screw pushes an
inlet with O ring positioned with the index pins against the outlet.
They are common to compressed air dive bottles ,quick to change
bottles and no chance of a cross thread.Very robust compared with
our threaded connector mountain high cylinders.
In the Uk many dive shops will not charge a DOT cylinder, they want
a DIN number and date.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathon May wrote on 10/3/2019 1:17 PM:
> At 18:22 03 October 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Jonathon May wrote on 10/3/2019 9:55 AM:
>>>
>>> I have been using a Dive type cylinder because they are easier
> to
>>> get re filled.
>>> Last Saturday I was flying with the bottle on but the regulator
> off
>>> above a ridge trying to connect to the wave system.
>>> About 1 hour in and 2700ft asl there was a loud pop and bottle
>>> pressure O2 started blowing into the cockpit .
>>> I could not turn the bottle off so I opened the DV window put a
>>> Pan call out and got it back on the glider field in about 3
> minuets .
>>> I have never been so scared ,and I have loads of field landings
> and
>>> thousands of hours in gliders.
>>> I blame it on lack of maintenance and use, the cylinders has
> been
>>> sitting in the glider since March turned off while I flew thermals
> in
>>> the UK.
>>> My bad just need the bottle re-filling and probably a new O ring.
>>
>> What is a Dive type cylinder, and why is it easier to get it refilled
> with
>> oxygen?
>>
>> What failed and caused the pop?

>
> I assume the O ring displaced,I took it off and it sealed OK on the
> ground, but its going to be checked before I use it again I assure
> you.
>
> Dive cylinder has a square top with an outlet and 2 indexing pins.
> The regulator does over the top with a yoke and a screw pushes an
> inlet with O ring positioned with the index pins against the outlet.
> They are common to compressed air dive bottles ,quick to change
> bottles and no chance of a cross thread.Very robust compared with
> our threaded connector mountain high cylinders.
> In the Uk many dive shops will not charge a DOT cylinder, they want
> a DIN number and date.

That sounds like what is called a "medical bottle" in the US. I used them for
several years because I could exchange them at almost any pharmacy, which are much
more plentiful than airports (with oxygen) or welding shops. Unfortunately, they
began to require a prescription from a doctor to get oxygen. A prescription for
something everyone is breathing? Did not see that one coming; anyhow, I now
transfill my bottles from welding bottles, which is easy and cheap. For traveling,
I carry a medium size welding bottle, good for 2 or 3 fills.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

I've never heard of a dive shop supplying oxygen.Â* During my scuba
training in the early 60s, I was taught that oxygen is toxic at high
ambient pressure as below some depth which I didn't bother to research.Â*
Imagine filling a scuba tank (dive bottle) with oxygen and killing the
diver!

Now I know that things are different on the east side of the Atlantic,
but are you sure you're getting oxygen and not just compressed air at
the dive shop?

On 10/3/2019 2:17 PM, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 18:22 03 October 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Jonathon May wrote on 10/3/2019 9:55 AM:
>>> I have been using a Dive type cylinder because they are easier
> to
>>> get re filled.
>>> Last Saturday I was flying with the bottle on but the regulator
> off
>>> above a ridge trying to connect to the wave system.
>>> About 1 hour in and 2700ft asl there was a loud pop and bottle
>>> pressure O2 started blowing into the cockpit .
>>> I could not turn the bottle off so I opened the DV window put a
>>> Pan call out and got it back on the glider field in about 3
> minuets .
>>> I have never been so scared ,and I have loads of field landings
> and
>>> thousands of hours in gliders.
>>> I blame it on lack of maintenance and use, the cylinders has
> been
>>> sitting in the glider since March turned off while I flew thermals
> in
>>> the UK.
>>> My bad just need the bottle re-filling and probably a new O ring.
>> What is a Dive type cylinder, and why is it easier to get it refilled
> with
>> oxygen?
>>
>> What failed and caused the pop?
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us"
> to email
>> me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-
> the-guide-1
> I assume the O ring displaced,I took it off and it sealed OK on the
> ground, but its going to be checked before I use it again I assure
> you.
>
> Dive cylinder has a square top with an outlet and 2 indexing pins.
> The regulator does over the top with a yoke and a screw pushes an
> inlet with O ring positioned with the index pins against the outlet.
> They are common to compressed air dive bottles ,quick to change
> bottles and no chance of a cross thread.Very robust compared with
> our threaded connector mountain high cylinders.
> In the Uk many dive shops will not charge a DOT cylinder, they want
> a DIN number and date.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 8:49:06 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've never heard of a dive shop supplying oxygen.Â* During my scuba
> training in the early 60s, I was taught that oxygen is toxic at high
> ambient pressure as below some depth which I didn't bother to research.Â*
> Imagine filling a scuba tank (dive bottle) with oxygen and killing the
> diver!

Divers keep a bottle of O2 around in the boat to treat bends or just to get rid of nitrogen in blood faster to be able to dive more in a day.

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 3 octobre 2019 22:30:05 UTC+2, Jonathon May a écritÂ*:
> At 18:22 03 October 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >Jonathon May wrote on 10/3/2019 9:55 AM:
> >>
> >> I have been using a Dive type cylinder because they are easier
> to
> >> get re filled.
> >> Last Saturday I was flying with the bottle on but the regulator
> off
> >> above a ridge trying to connect to the wave system.
> >> About 1 hour in and 2700ft asl there was a loud pop and bottle
> >> pressure O2 started blowing into the cockpit .
> >> I could not turn the bottle off so I opened the DV window put a
> >> Pan call out and got it back on the glider field in about 3
> minuets .
> >> I have never been so scared ,and I have loads of field landings
> and
> >> thousands of hours in gliders.

I had a similar experience thus summer - the connector on the MH regulator obviously had worn out over the about 20 years of use and decided to let go the connecting hose to the EDS unit.
I can't reach the cylinder inflight without an immense effort of wiggling myself, and as I was close to the rocks trying to get the first climb of the day, I just kept on flying. The oxygene pressure on the outlet of the regulator is 2 bars or less, so it can't do any harm.

[RR]

Things have changed since you have been diving. Not about the toxicity of O2 at depth (I think at pressures above 2 atmosphere (below 10m)) but the use of pure Ox in diving.

These days there are mixed gas rebreathers. They work by mixing the breathing gas in the system in real time,and removing the co2 fully self contained. So diving with no bubbles. They use high pressure pure Ox to feed the system. Often 3 or 4k psi in small spherical tanks. As you can imagine this is not cheap, and quite technical. Google Mixed Gas Rebreathers if interested.

[Jonathon May]

At 09:09 04 October 2019, Tango Whisky wrote:
>Le jeudi 3 octobre 2019 22:30:05 UTC+2, Jonathon May a
=C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>> At 18:22 03 October 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> >Jonathon May wrote on 10/3/2019 9:55 AM:
>> >>=20
>> >> I have been using a Dive type cylinder because they are
easier=20
>> to
>> >> get re filled.
>> >> Last Saturday I was flying with the bottle on but the
regulator=20
>> off
>> >> above a ridge trying to connect to the wave system.
>> >> About 1 hour in and 2700ft asl there was a loud pop and
bottle
>> >> pressure O2 started blowing into the cockpit .
>> >> I could not turn the bottle off so I opened the DV window
put a
>> >> Pan call out and got it back on the glider field in about 3=20
>> minuets .
>> >> I have never been so scared ,and I have loads of field
landings=20
>> and
>> >> thousands of hours in gliders.
>
>I had a similar experience thus summer - the connector on the MH
regulator
>=
>obviously had worn out over the about 20 years of use and
decided to let
>go=
> the connecting hose to the EDS unit.
>I can't reach the cylinder inflight without an immense effort of
wiggling
>m=
>yself, and as I was close to the rocks trying to get the first climb
of
>the=
> day, I just kept on flying. The oxygene pressure on the outlet of
the
>regu=
>lator is 2 bars or less, so it can't do any harm.


That seems reasonable,I had 200Bar bottle pressure.
>
>

[Tango Whisky]

Le vendredi 4 octobre 2019 14:45:05 UTC+2, Jonathon May a écritÂ*:
> That seems reasonable,I had 200Bar bottle pressure.

That's what I figured. Freeflowing oxygene at 200 bars is no place to be. It would spontaneously combust any grease in its reach.

[John McLaughlin]

>That's what I figured. Freeflowing oxygene at 200 bars is no place to be.
>I=
>t would spontaneously combust any grease in its reach.
>
>

With the cocktail of O2, batteries, petrol, dodgy wiring (often made worse

by engine vibration) it does seem slightly surprising that no glider has
exploded. So far.

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 8:16:46 AM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le vendredi 4 octobre 2019 14:45:05 UTC+2, Jonathon May a écritÂ*:
> > That seems reasonable,I had 200Bar bottle pressure.
>
> That's what I figured. Freeflowing oxygene at 200 bars is no place to be. It would spontaneously combust any grease in its reach.
Oxygen enhanced air is regularly used in diving to reduce issues with nitrogen saturation. It's often called Nitrox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrox

Same issues apply with oxygen toxicity, etc. but oxygen enhanced air allows for increased numbers of dives during many recreational dive situations. Oxygen percentage is typically bumped up to 32% or 36% and all modern dive computers have the ability to factor this into dive profiles.

So yes, most dive shops do have oxygen on site. I haven't used a dive shop for an O2 fill, but I to take bottles to the shop to get them hydro tested.

Cheers,
Craig

[kinsell]

On 10/4/19 11:17 AM, John McLaughlin wrote:
>> That's what I figured. Freeflowing oxygene at 200 bars is no place to be.
>> I=
>> t would spontaneously combust any grease in its reach.
>>
>>
>
> With the cocktail of O2, batteries, petrol, dodgy wiring (often made worse
>
> by engine vibration) it does seem slightly surprising that no glider has
> exploded. So far.
>

Many years ago, Soaring had a picture of a Ka-6 that was severely
damaged in an O2 filling accident.

[[email protected]]

The local dive shop here has a nice cascade of 5 pilot's breathing O2 tanks, but they won't fill a pilot's cylinder because it looks too much like a medical o2 which requires a whole set of other paperwork.


The welding shop where he gets his tanks from is happy to rent a similar O2 tank to transfill from. Go figure.

[Dan Marotta]

Very cool!



On 10/4/2019 6:23 AM, RR wrote:
> Things have changed since you have been diving. Not about the toxicity of O2 at depth (I think at pressures above 2 atmosphere (below 10m)) but the use of pure Ox in diving.
>
> These days there are mixed gas rebreathers. They work by mixing the breathing gas in the system in real time,and removing the co2 fully self contained. So diving with no bubbles. They use high pressure pure Ox to feed the system. Often 3 or 4k psi in small spherical tanks. As you can imagine this is not cheap, and quite technical. Google Mixed Gas Rebreathers if interested.

--
Dan, 5J