LX Era 80 vs S80/S100

[Senna Van den Bosch]

I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.

I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.

For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery.. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.

Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?

Help would be appreciated!

[krasw]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:44:55 AM UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
>
> I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.
>
> For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
>
> Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?
>
> Help would be appreciated!

I've flown S80 and first thing I did was to get rid of clutter of several needles.

I would add Air Glide S to the list. You get the very good inertial netto that is not availabe on others, and a product that is made to look and feel like real aircraft instrument.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op woensdag 2 oktober 2019 10:18:31 UTC+2 schreef krasw:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:44:55 AM UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
> >
> > I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.
> >
> > For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
> >
> > Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?
> >
> > Help would be appreciated!
>
> I've flown S80 and first thing I did was to get rid of clutter of several needles.
>
> I would add Air Glide S to the list. You get the very good inertial netto that is not availabe on others, and a product that is made to look and feel like real aircraft instrument.

The Air Glide looks amazing, however, the display is € 1499 and if I'm not mistaken, requires the € 1499 sensor unit as well, making the Era 80/S80/S100 well over € 1000 cheaper.

[Jim White[_3_]]

I fly with S80 in club aircraft and with LX EOS in my ASW27. My
contribution to your questions in that the S80 has too many knobs and
buttons. The EOS has one knob and one button.

Despite flying with the S80 for 2 seasons I still end up hitting the wrong
buttons and twiddling the wrong knob. The LX offerings are much easier to
operate.

Both are very good varios and provide all the data you need (and much
more).

[Shaun McLaughlin[_2_]]

At 06:44 02 October 2019, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100.
With
>=
>limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
>
>I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but
>fail=
> to see many differences.
>
>For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that
>the=
> Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup
>battery=
>.. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100
>can=
> do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
>
>Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that
>I=
>'m missing?
>
>Help would be appreciated!
>

I have flown with both - Era 80 in a club owned Discus, and S80 (with AHRS)
in private Cirrus/Nimbus/ASW20. Much more time in the S80 equipped
gliders.

Both are good varios, personally I prefer the S80/S100 (with the LX remote
Stick). The Era 80 has a 'fancier' display/UI, as I think it has a higher
resolution but I found the S80 much easier to get started with visually and
while quickly scanning the instruments. Once you understand the multiple
'needles' (also includes thermal average) they are very useful indeed.

I have also heard good things about the ClearNav Vario (with the square LCD
display), but this lacks some all round functionality of the Era/S80 (which
may need additional licences anyway to enable).

If you are borderline on which to choose, go with the one which is more
common at your club- these are niche products and you may well find you
need support at the most inconvenient of moments!

Cheers,
Shaun

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op woensdag 2 oktober 2019 12:45:04 UTC+2 schreef Jim White:
> I fly with S80 in club aircraft and with LX EOS in my ASW27. My
> contribution to your questions in that the S80 has too many knobs and
> buttons. The EOS has one knob and one button.
>
> Despite flying with the S80 for 2 seasons I still end up hitting the wrong
> buttons and twiddling the wrong knob. The LX offerings are much easier to
> operate.
>
> Both are very good varios and provide all the data you need (and much
> more).

Would you say the S80 is less accurate or about the same in performance? The Era 80 also features 2 knobs and buttons, but performance or feature wise I can't find many differences.

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 2 October 2019 11:21:17 UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Op woensdag 2 oktober 2019 10:18:31 UTC+2 schreef krasw:
> > On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:44:55 AM UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > > I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
> > >
> > > I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.
> > >
> > > For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
> > >
> > > Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?
> > >
> > > Help would be appreciated!
> >
> > I've flown S80 and first thing I did was to get rid of clutter of several needles.
> >
> > I would add Air Glide S to the list. You get the very good inertial netto that is not availabe on others, and a product that is made to look and feel like real aircraft instrument.
>
> The Air Glide looks amazing, however, the display is € 1499 and if I'm not mistaken, requires the € 1499 sensor unit as well, making the Era 80/S80/S100 well over € 1000 cheaper.


Correspoding LX Nav would be S100 with AHRS option, priced very close to it..

[Sergio Elia]

They are both valid. I use S100 and I'm very satisfied. The S100 also has GPS, is IGC certificated and has an internal backup battery that lasts for 3 hours. I would definetly reccomend the remote stick.
It is very precise in Wind calculations.
Cheers

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 11:17 02 October 2019, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>Op woensdag 2 oktober 2019 12:45:04 UTC+2 schreef Jim White:
>> I fly with S80 in club aircraft and with LX EOS in my ASW27. My
>> contribution to your questions in that the S80 has too many knobs and
>> buttons. The EOS has one knob and one button.
>>
>> Despite flying with the S80 for 2 seasons I still end up hitting the
>wrong
>> buttons and twiddling the wrong knob. The LX offerings are much easier
to
>> operate.
>>
>> Both are very good varios and provide all the data you need (and much
>> more).
>
>Would you say the S80 is less accurate or about the same in performance?
>The Era 80 also features 2 knobs and buttons, but performance or feature
>wise I can't find many differences.
>
They are both very good varios. My EOS tracks my Sage Vario pretty much
exactly. I am not sure how you would check 'accuracy' in climb or glide
except by doing a Johnsonesque long glide in still air.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 2:15:06 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
> At 11:17 02 October 2019, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> >Op woensdag 2 oktober 2019 12:45:04 UTC+2 schreef Jim White:
> >> I fly with S80 in club aircraft and with LX EOS in my ASW27. My
> >> contribution to your questions in that the S80 has too many knobs and
> >> buttons. The EOS has one knob and one button.
> >>
> >> Despite flying with the S80 for 2 seasons I still end up hitting the
> >wrong
> >> buttons and twiddling the wrong knob. The LX offerings are much easier
> to
> >> operate.
> >>
> >> Both are very good varios and provide all the data you need (and much
> >> more).
> >
> >Would you say the S80 is less accurate or about the same in performance?
> >The Era 80 also features 2 knobs and buttons, but performance or feature
> >wise I can't find many differences.
> >
> They are both very good varios. My EOS tracks my Sage Vario pretty much
> exactly. I am not sure how you would check 'accuracy' in climb or glide
> except by doing a Johnsonesque long glide in still air.

I alway check altimeter too. More than once 3-4 knots on vario but reality, as told by altimeter was another story. When I turn into a thermal I note altitude.

[Turkey Vulture]

I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.

I ordered the lx navigation Eros first and then returned it. I preferred the simplicity of the S100. I found the era to be slightly less user friendly but it’s basically the same unit.

You will be happy with the S100. It has all the bells and whistles and is easy to use. I have it on electronic compensation though and it creates an overly sensitive and optimistic vario. Adjusting internal settings has minimal effect on this. On the DG 100 I would use the traditional TE compensation. I think you need the combo probe to get good performance with electronic compensation on the S100. I find myself waiting on the winter to confirm a thermal before turning. The S100 is usually right about the thermal and quick to identify it, but screams like it’s going to be a 5 kt climb until you exuberantly turn and find it to only be 1.5 kts. Yes, I have tuned it for stick thermals Properly. The winter stays honest throughout. I think this is due to the location of the static holes...

The $800 AHRS option sure is cool eye candy and could come in useful on that wave day where it closes in below you but Otherwise, you won’t use it.

My last comment is that you have one option for tone. Yea you can adjust it slightly but it’s doesn’t change much. For $2,000 you should have 10 options for types of sounds for the vario. It blows my mind that nobody seems to care and it’s not even discussed in reviews. The tone should be highly adjustable just like the face of the vario. Instead you get a standard beep. Cambridge and Tasman had some nice option. The industry needs to pamper attention to this as we all have to listen to it for hours on end

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op vrijdag 4 oktober 2019 15:17:12 UTC+2 schreef Turkey Vulture:
> I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
>
> I ordered the lx navigation Eros first and then returned it. I preferred the simplicity of the S100. I found the era to be slightly less user friendly but it’s basically the same unit.
>
> You will be happy with the S100. It has all the bells and whistles and is easy to use. I have it on electronic compensation though and it creates an overly sensitive and optimistic vario. Adjusting internal settings has minimal effect on this. On the DG 100 I would use the traditional TE compensation. I think you need the combo probe to get good performance with electronic compensation on the S100. I find myself waiting on the winter to confirm a thermal before turning. The S100 is usually right about the thermal and quick to identify it, but screams like it’s going to be a 5 kt climb until you exuberantly turn and find it to only be 1.5 kts. Yes, I have tuned it for stick thermals Properly. The winter stays honest throughout. I think this is due to the location of the static holes...
>
> The $800 AHRS option sure is cool eye candy and could come in useful on that wave day where it closes in below you but Otherwise, you won’t use it.
>
> My last comment is that you have one option for tone. Yea you can adjust it slightly but it’s doesn’t change much. For $2,000 you should have 10 options for types of sounds for the vario. It blows my mind that nobody seems to care and it’s not even discussed in reviews. The tone should be highly adjustable just like the face of the vario. Instead you get a standard beep. Cambridge and Tasman had some nice option. The industry needs to pamper attention to this as we all have to listen to it for hours on end

Right now I find myself in the following situation before EVERY thermal in the C4:
Speed to fly mode is active, try to keep it at 0. When flying through a thermal before turning, it shows me I have to slow down a lot, pointing towards the +3-4 m/s (while going straight), turning in thinking I have a great thermal, followed by switching mode to thermal mode, only to see I net +1 or +2 m/s.

In the C4, I have absolutely no way of telling before turning in and switching the mode, how strong it will be. That is one of the main reasons to switch to a new vario, as it is possible to show those multiple needles and digits, even in speed to fly mode (I think it can?)

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op vrijdag 4 oktober 2019 15:17:12 UTC+2 schreef Turkey Vulture:
> I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
>
> I ordered the lx navigation Eros first and then returned it. I preferred the simplicity of the S100. I found the era to be slightly less user friendly but it’s basically the same unit.
>
> You will be happy with the S100. It has all the bells and whistles and is easy to use. I have it on electronic compensation though and it creates an overly sensitive and optimistic vario. Adjusting internal settings has minimal effect on this. On the DG 100 I would use the traditional TE compensation. I think you need the combo probe to get good performance with electronic compensation on the S100. I find myself waiting on the winter to confirm a thermal before turning. The S100 is usually right about the thermal and quick to identify it, but screams like it’s going to be a 5 kt climb until you exuberantly turn and find it to only be 1.5 kts. Yes, I have tuned it for stick thermals Properly. The winter stays honest throughout. I think this is due to the location of the static holes...
>
> The $800 AHRS option sure is cool eye candy and could come in useful on that wave day where it closes in below you but Otherwise, you won’t use it.
>
> My last comment is that you have one option for tone. Yea you can adjust it slightly but it’s doesn’t change much. For $2,000 you should have 10 options for types of sounds for the vario. It blows my mind that nobody seems to care and it’s not even discussed in reviews. The tone should be highly adjustable just like the face of the vario. Instead you get a standard beep. Cambridge and Tasman had some nice option. The industry needs to pamper attention to this as we all have to listen to it for hours on end

Also, would you say the LX stick is worth it? My DG instrument panel is quite far, I've only used the LX stick for an LX 9070 in an Arcus, and that was quite pleasant.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 07:25:25 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> In the C4, I have absolutely no way of telling before turning in and
> switching the mode, how strong it will be. That is one of the main
> reasons to switch to a new vario, as it is possible to show those
> multiple needles and digits, even in speed to fly mode (I think it can?)
>
How are you controlling mode switch?

I have a C4 in my Libelle. I like the C4 a lot and find it very easy to
read and to interpret its sounds.

I use airspeed for mode switch and spent some time tuning that to suit me
and the glider. I've ended up with Thermal->Cruise set at 60kts and
Cruise->Thermal at 55 kts. At these switch points its almost always in
the appropriate mode without me having to do anything. If I need to force
a switch, then a small pull or push on the stick does it.

I never seriously considered using manual switching as just something
more to fiddle with. I tried switching on circling, but didn't like that
at all.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

It sounds like either your C4 is not configured properly, or there is a leak somewhere in your TE system or you use a TE probe that does not work properly. A new vario won't fix this, but will probably make things even worse. Recent varios are more sensitive to any issues with pressure sensing and plumbing than older units were.

Electronic compensation with these new devices requires a multi-probe with static and total pressure being picked up at the same location. But this is something all current varios have in common.

The new LX varios are better than the older ones (LX7007) and finally reached a quality comparable to 15 year old 302 or Zander ZS1.

[[email protected]]

> Also, would you say the LX stick is worth it? My DG instrument panel is quite far, I've only used the LX stick for an LX 9070 in an Arcus, and that was quite pleasant.


I love the LX grip and installed in my my DG400 with the S100. I go the one that has the toggle switch which I worked to raise and lower the engine. Push forward to extend, and pull back to stow engine. Much more intuitive that the side toggle.

But the overall function of the stick controller is great and I can toggle form flarm, waypoint, task, pages very simply with my thumb. Also macredy, ballast, bugs, and volume very easily. I Love the stick controller.

Kevin Anderson
92

[krasw]

On Friday, 4 October 2019 17:25:28 UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Op vrijdag 4 oktober 2019 15:17:12 UTC+2 schreef Turkey Vulture:
> > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> >
> > I ordered the lx navigation Eros first and then returned it. I preferred the simplicity of the S100. I found the era to be slightly less user friendly but it’s basically the same unit.
> >
> > You will be happy with the S100. It has all the bells and whistles and is easy to use. I have it on electronic compensation though and it creates an overly sensitive and optimistic vario. Adjusting internal settings has minimal effect on this. On the DG 100 I would use the traditional TE compensation. I think you need the combo probe to get good performance with electronic compensation on the S100. I find myself waiting on the winter to confirm a thermal before turning. The S100 is usually right about the thermal and quick to identify it, but screams like it’s going to be a 5 kt climb until you exuberantly turn and find it to only be 1.5 kts. Yes, I have tuned it for stick thermals Properly. The winter stays honest throughout. I think this is due to the location of the static holes...
> >
> > The $800 AHRS option sure is cool eye candy and could come in useful on that wave day where it closes in below you but Otherwise, you won’t use it.
> >
> > My last comment is that you have one option for tone. Yea you can adjust it slightly but it’s doesn’t change much. For $2,000 you should have 10 options for types of sounds for the vario. It blows my mind that nobody seems to care and it’s not even discussed in reviews. The tone should be highly adjustable just like the face of the vario. Instead you get a standard beep. Cambridge and Tasman had some nice option. The industry needs to pamper attention to this as we all have to listen to it for hours on end
>
> Right now I find myself in the following situation before EVERY thermal in the C4:
> Speed to fly mode is active, try to keep it at 0. When flying through a thermal before turning, it shows me I have to slow down a lot, pointing towards the +3-4 m/s (while going straight), turning in thinking I have a great thermal, followed by switching mode to thermal mode, only to see I net +1 or +2 m/s.
>
> In the C4, I have absolutely no way of telling before turning in and switching the mode, how strong it will be. That is one of the main reasons to switch to a new vario, as it is possible to show those multiple needles and digits, even in speed to fly mode (I think it can?)

This does not sound like variometer hardware issue or C4 feature. My guess is either pitot-static problem or configuration problem. You will probably have some problems with every new vario (except GlideS that can be configured to ignore pitot-static data for inertial vario). I would start with leak test, plumbing, new probe etc.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 06:31:17 -0700, krasw wrote:

> On Friday, 4 October 2019 17:25:28 UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>> Op vrijdag 4 oktober 2019 15:17:12 UTC+2 schreef Turkey Vulture:
>> > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for
>> > the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
>> >
>> > I ordered the lx navigation Eros first and then returned it. I
>> > preferred the simplicity of the S100. I found the era to be slightly
>> > less user friendly but it’s basically the same unit.
>> >
>> > You will be happy with the S100. It has all the bells and whistles
>> > and is easy to use. I have it on electronic compensation though and
>> > it creates an overly sensitive and optimistic vario. Adjusting
>> > internal settings has minimal effect on this. On the DG 100 I would
>> > use the traditional TE compensation. I think you need the combo probe
>> > to get good performance with electronic compensation on the S100. I
>> > find myself waiting on the winter to confirm a thermal before
>> > turning. The S100 is usually right about the thermal and quick to
>> > identify it, but screams like it’s going to be a 5 kt climb until you
>> > exuberantly turn and find it to only be 1.5 kts. Yes, I have tuned it
>> > for stick thermals Properly. The winter stays honest throughout. I
>> > think this is due to the location of the static holes...
>> >
>> > The $800 AHRS option sure is cool eye candy and could come in useful
>> > on that wave day where it closes in below you but Otherwise, you
>> > won’t use it.
>> >
>> > My last comment is that you have one option for tone. Yea you can
>> > adjust it slightly but it’s doesn’t change much. For $2,000 you
>> > should have 10 options for types of sounds for the vario. It blows my
>> > mind that nobody seems to care and it’s not even discussed in
>> > reviews. The tone should be highly adjustable just like the face of
>> > the vario. Instead you get a standard beep. Cambridge and Tasman had
>> > some nice option. The industry needs to pamper attention to this as
>> > we all have to listen to it for hours on end
>>
>> Right now I find myself in the following situation before EVERY thermal
>> in the C4:
>> Speed to fly mode is active, try to keep it at 0. When flying through a
>> thermal before turning, it shows me I have to slow down a lot, pointing
>> towards the +3-4 m/s (while going straight), turning in thinking I have
>> a great thermal, followed by switching mode to thermal mode, only to
>> see I net +1 or +2 m/s.
>>
>> In the C4, I have absolutely no way of telling before turning in and
>> switching the mode, how strong it will be. That is one of the main
>> reasons to switch to a new vario, as it is possible to show those
>> multiple needles and digits, even in speed to fly mode (I think it
>> can?)
>
> This does not sound like variometer hardware issue or C4 feature. My
> guess is either pitot-static problem or configuration problem. You will
> probably have some problems with every new vario (except GlideS that can
> be configured to ignore pitot-static data for inertial vario). I would
> start with leak test, plumbing, new probe etc.

I think his C4 is configured to use either manual switching or GPS-
detected circling switching. IIRC the manual says it switches after 1/4
turn, which has the disadvantage that if you fly straight through lift
the C4 will remain in cruise mode: you have to feel the lift and turn 90
degrees turn before the C4 will switch from netto to TE mode.

I tried using GPS-based circling-detection switching on my C4 and hated
it. I never considered using manual switching because, unlike the C3,
manual switching is just a third switching mode and can't be used to
override the other modes. At least thats what I understand the manual to
say.

The C3 could be configured to automatically switch between TE and netto
mode using GPS (circling detection) or airspeed and, in addition had a 3-
position switch on its face: the positions were:

UP: thermal mode (TE vario)
CENTRE: automatic switch using the configured method
DOWN: cruise mode (netto)

IOW the switch was really an override for the configured automatic
switching method.

The C4 lacks this switch, but does allow an external switch to be
connected with the expectation that it would be on the flap lever or the
top of the stick. However, it can only be configured to use one of the
three switching options:

automatic switch between TE and netto mode on airspeed
automatic switch between TE and netto mode on GPS-detected circling
manual switch between TE and netto mode

My C4, installed in a 201 Libelle, switches mode on airspeed:
netto to TE as the airspeed drops through 55 kts
TE to netto as the airspeed increases past 60kts

This leaves the C4 in the appropriate mode better than 95% of the time.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Senna
I think you should fix what you have first before spending any money.
What Christop and Krasw said is correct and I agree.
It sounds like you have a incorrect polar installed in your computor or a pneumatic tubing leak.
Your Netto function should work much better than you describe.
Double and triple check you have the correct polar data entered.
Mike Borgelt on his website has a tubing leak repair and test guide.
Lee Kuhlke also wrote a excellent article on testing in Soaring a few years back.
You only need a few dollars in tools and an less than an hour to do this.
You can't just look at the tubing; you Have to check it for leaks with a gauge, likely your airspeed indicator. This plumbing leak test is easy to do, finding and fixing the leak, if you have one, could take more time, but you have to have a leak free system before anything is going to work well.
These gliding computers function off of very low pressure's and suction.
Ask someone who knows if your TE probe is adequate.
Fix what you got and save that money for tows, or chocolates for your girlfriend the next time you leave her for a soaring trip!

[krasw]

perjantai 4. lokakuuta 2019 17.25.28 UTC+3 Senna Van den Bosch kirjoitti:
> Op vrijdag 4 oktober 2019 15:17:12 UTC+2 schreef Turkey Vulture:
> > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> >
> > I ordered the lx navigation Eros first and then returned it. I preferred the simplicity of the S100. I found the era to be slightly less user friendly but it’s basically the same unit.
> >
> > You will be happy with the S100. It has all the bells and whistles and is easy to use. I have it on electronic compensation though and it creates an overly sensitive and optimistic vario. Adjusting internal settings has minimal effect on this. On the DG 100 I would use the traditional TE compensation. I think you need the combo probe to get good performance with electronic compensation on the S100. I find myself waiting on the winter to confirm a thermal before turning. The S100 is usually right about the thermal and quick to identify it, but screams like it’s going to be a 5 kt climb until you exuberantly turn and find it to only be 1.5 kts. Yes, I have tuned it for stick thermals Properly. The winter stays honest throughout. I think this is due to the location of the static holes...
> >
> > The $800 AHRS option sure is cool eye candy and could come in useful on that wave day where it closes in below you but Otherwise, you won’t use it.
> >
> > My last comment is that you have one option for tone. Yea you can adjust it slightly but it’s doesn’t change much. For $2,000 you should have 10 options for types of sounds for the vario. It blows my mind that nobody seems to care and it’s not even discussed in reviews. The tone should be highly adjustable just like the face of the vario. Instead you get a standard beep. Cambridge and Tasman had some nice option. The industry needs to pamper attention to this as we all have to listen to it for hours on end
>
> Right now I find myself in the following situation before EVERY thermal in the C4:
> Speed to fly mode is active, try to keep it at 0. When flying through a thermal before turning, it shows me I have to slow down a lot, pointing towards the +3-4 m/s (while going straight), turning in thinking I have a great thermal, followed by switching mode to thermal mode, only to see I net +1 or +2 m/s.
>
> In the C4, I have absolutely no way of telling before turning in and switching the mode, how strong it will be. That is one of the main reasons to switch to a new vario, as it is possible to show those multiple needles and digits, even in speed to fly mode (I think it can?)

Reading this trough again I think this happens:

When you fly trough thermal your indicator is configured as speed commander, commanding to pull up, which is correct (in a sense that every single flight computer/variometer wants you to pull straight into deep stall in thermal, like this is what people normally do).

What you want is relative netto indicator. This tells you the strength of the thermal if you would circle in it at optimum climbing speed, no matter what your current speed is. Seems like C4 needle cannot be configured to show relative netto.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op zondag 6 oktober 2019 13:14:20 UTC+2 schreef krasw:
> perjantai 4. lokakuuta 2019 17.25.28 UTC+3 Senna Van den Bosch kirjoitti:
> > Op vrijdag 4 oktober 2019 15:17:12 UTC+2 schreef Turkey Vulture:
> > > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> > >
> > > I ordered the lx navigation Eros first and then returned it. I preferred the simplicity of the S100. I found the era to be slightly less user friendly but it’s basically the same unit.
> > >
> > > You will be happy with the S100. It has all the bells and whistles and is easy to use. I have it on electronic compensation though and it creates an overly sensitive and optimistic vario. Adjusting internal settings has minimal effect on this. On the DG 100 I would use the traditional TE compensation. I think you need the combo probe to get good performance with electronic compensation on the S100. I find myself waiting on the winter to confirm a thermal before turning. The S100 is usually right about the thermal and quick to identify it, but screams like it’s going to be a 5 kt climb until you exuberantly turn and find it to only be 1.5 kts. Yes, I have tuned it for stick thermals Properly. The winter stays honest throughout. I think this is due to the location of the static holes...
> > >
> > > The $800 AHRS option sure is cool eye candy and could come in useful on that wave day where it closes in below you but Otherwise, you won’t use it.
> > >
> > > My last comment is that you have one option for tone. Yea you can adjust it slightly but it’s doesn’t change much. For $2,000 you should have 10 options for types of sounds for the vario. It blows my mind that nobody seems to care and it’s not even discussed in reviews. The tone should be highly adjustable just like the face of the vario. Instead you get a standard beep. Cambridge and Tasman had some nice option. The industry needs to pamper attention to this as we all have to listen to it for hours on end
> >
> > Right now I find myself in the following situation before EVERY thermal in the C4:
> > Speed to fly mode is active, try to keep it at 0. When flying through a thermal before turning, it shows me I have to slow down a lot, pointing towards the +3-4 m/s (while going straight), turning in thinking I have a great thermal, followed by switching mode to thermal mode, only to see I net +1 or +2 m/s.
> >
> > In the C4, I have absolutely no way of telling before turning in and switching the mode, how strong it will be. That is one of the main reasons to switch to a new vario, as it is possible to show those multiple needles and digits, even in speed to fly mode (I think it can?)
>
> Reading this trough again I think this happens:
>
> When you fly trough thermal your indicator is configured as speed commander, commanding to pull up, which is correct (in a sense that every single flight computer/variometer wants you to pull straight into deep stall in thermal, like this is what people normally do).
>
> What you want is relative netto indicator. This tells you the strength of the thermal if you would circle in it at optimum climbing speed, no matter what your current speed is. Seems like C4 needle cannot be configured to show relative netto.

This is true, however I do think it isn't speed related to switch from speed to fly to thermal, I think it's in the 90° turn mode, I'll try switching that over first :)

[[email protected]]

Not only you should be able to select your favorite method for switching from Speed-Command to Vario, but you should probably be able to select what is actually being indicated by the needle. In the Zander which I'm more familiar with, you have many options, doubled for SC and Vario.

My preferred setting is:
SC => needle indicates netto, or relative netto.
Va => needle indicates vario

I prefer to have the "push or pull" indication elsewhere, maybe an arrow in the repeater or main computer unit. Or I can easily live without it.

The C4 is a honest vario. I'd try to keep it there.

Aldo Cernezzi.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:18:31 AM UTC+1, krasw wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:44:55 AM UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
> >
> > I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.
> >
> > For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
> >
> > Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?
> >
> > Help would be appreciated!
>
> I've flown S80 and first thing I did was to get rid of clutter of several needles.
>
> I would add Air Glide S to the list. You get the very good inertial netto that is not availabe on others, and a product that is made to look and feel like real aircraft instrument.

Air Avionics are stopping making the Air Glide vario/nav systems - as reported on https://streckenflug.at/

[[email protected]]

The Airglide announcement
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.streckenflug.at%2Fmedia%2F%2F news%2F19_AIRAV_triadis_ende_der_kooperation.pdf

from last paragraph
AIR Avionics wants to support interested parties and the open source community to further exploit acquired knowledge and software components.

Wonder if they intend it to become an open source instrument?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, October 27, 2019 at 8:16:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:18:31 AM UTC+1, krasw wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 9:44:55 AM UTC+3, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > > I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
> > >
> > > I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.
> > >
> > > For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
> > >
> > > Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?
> > >
> > > Help would be appreciated!
> >
> > I've flown S80 and first thing I did was to get rid of clutter of several needles.
> >
> > I would add Air Glide S to the list. You get the very good inertial netto that is not availabe on others, and a product that is made to look and feel like real aircraft instrument.
>
> Air Avionics are stopping making the Air Glide vario/nav systems - as reported on https://streckenflug.at/

I hope some company buys that line of Air Glide varios! I love the instantaneous wind and the Blue dot in rough gusty conditions.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

I've been seeing some pilots prefer the Borgelt variometers as well, how would the modern ones (B600/B800/dynamis) compare to the modern LX variometers?

[Charlie Quebec]

I have a B800, and I’m very happy with it, only the vario, no GCD or Borgelt GPS, just use flight computer to set mcready and ballast.
Dynamis certainly sounds great, but at over $5000 aud + extra on top of the B800, It is very costly.
The basic B800 was much cheaper than the LXs, both kinds.
I’m wondering the same question, looking at an S80 that is for sale here.

[Charlie Quebec]

I have a B800, though just the vario, without the Borgelt GPS, GCD and Dynamis. I control the settings on the B800 via the flight computer, bugs, ballast and Mcready,
Dynamis sounds great, but at $5000aud + is not cheap, maybe one day.
I’ve been wondering the same thing myself, though my recent flights with the new B800 have been satisfyingly fast, so there’s that.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 23:33:54 -0800, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

> I've been seeing some pilots prefer the Borgelt variometers as well, how
> would the modern ones (B600/B800/dynamis) compare to the modern LX
> variometers?
>
Most of the LX units I've seen strike me as cramming too much information
into the centre of the display, but of course ymmv.

Currently I'm very happy with an SDI C4 (with cruise/climb switching
controlled by airspeed) and a 3.5" PNA running LK8000 (3.5" because of
panel size limitation) and a Borgelt B.40 as secondary vario.

Back when I used a Garmin GPS II for navigation I had that connected to
the C4, which let it calculate arrival heights etc. That doesn't work now
because the PNA/LK8000 doesn't have a suitable data out connection and,
even if it did, it doesn't output the GPS sentences the C4 needs. So, I'm
considering using a port of LK8000 to a Raspberry Pi with a touch screen
and writing a custom module to generate the data feed to the C4.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 1:25:06 PM UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 23:33:54 -0800, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>
> > I've been seeing some pilots prefer the Borgelt variometers as well, how
> > would the modern ones (B600/B800/dynamis) compare to the modern LX
> > variometers?
> >
> Most of the LX units I've seen strike me as cramming too much information
> into the centre of the display, but of course ymmv.
>
> Currently I'm very happy with an SDI C4 (with cruise/climb switching
> controlled by airspeed) and a 3.5" PNA running LK8000 (3.5" because of
> panel size limitation) and a Borgelt B.40 as secondary vario.
>
> Back when I used a Garmin GPS II for navigation I had that connected to
> the C4, which let it calculate arrival heights etc. That doesn't work now
> because the PNA/LK8000 doesn't have a suitable data out connection and,
> even if it did, it doesn't output the GPS sentences the C4 needs. So, I'm
> considering using a port of LK8000 to a Raspberry Pi with a touch screen
> and writing a custom module to generate the data feed to the C4.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Hi Martin,

you can adjust the layout as you wish. You can have only one NAVBOX and no other data. At LXNAV we indeed have many options and many information, but the most important is that you can totally adjust the screen as you wish.

More you can read here:
https://gliding.lxnav.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/LX8x10xManualEnglishVer710rev29.pdf

page: 25

Best regards, Toni

[Jonathan Foster]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 12:44:55 AM UTC-6, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
>
> I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.
>
> For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
>
> Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?
>
> Help would be appreciated!

I have also been considering trading out my trusty CAI302 for an S80 or Era.. One question I have is the CAI302 makes a giddy-up sound if I get to slow while thermalling. Does either of these instruments do that? I think it is an important safety feature.

[GliderCZ]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 6:59:44 AM UTC-7, Jonathan Foster wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 12:44:55 AM UTC-6, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > I'm thinking of upgrading my SDI C4 e-vario this winter in my DG-100. With limited space, I would be going for an 80mm one.
> >
> > I've seen some different options, like the LX S80/S100 and Era 80, but fail to see many differences.
> >
> > For what I do know from the cumulus-soaring.com comparison page is that the Era 80 has GPS built in, is IGC approved and has a built in backup battery. Also, the Era seems to support 1 needle at a time, while the S80/S100 can do netto/relative/McCready needles at the same time.
> >
> > Would you suggest one above the other? Any other features to compare that I'm missing?
> >
> > Help would be appreciated!
>
Not familiar with the Era, but have used LXNAV gear for many years now. Very impressed with their responsive factory answers to any questions I've had.

I have the LX9000 with V9 vario, which does have a voice-type stall warning.. On occasion, she's reminded me of my sometimes erratic thermaling technique. According to the user manual (available on LXNAV website), the S80 has similar.

[Stephen Szikora]

Sounds like nagging. I fly to get away from that!

[Turkey Vulture]

I have my S100 set to GPS auto-mode w/ the initial gyro sensing your pull up and turn to lift. It beats my PDA in switching every time. It switches within the first 1/4 turn of the circle to "climb" mode and quickly switches back to "cruise" mode when leaving the circle.

I have the Netto displayed in numeric form in "cruise". It works very well and the 4-second averager setting feels about right.
Netto displayed on your primary vario is a wonderful tool for XC flight.


I never touch the unit or switch anything during flight and have not felt like I needed to. It's completely in tune and switches between flight modes quickly.

Nonetheless, you guys have me considering the dedicated control stick. I'm not in love with my stock grip. The stock grip seems like it's welded on there. Is removal difficult?

I have the S100 set to my TE probe (no electronic compensation) and it's now a very true and reliable device. I highly recommend the S100. It's a great do-everything vario and will improve your efficiency in flight.

[Kenz Dale]

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.

This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.

LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.

Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.

[waremark]

On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
>
> This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.
>
> LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.
>
> Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone >autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of >their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a >dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a >perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.

This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.

I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?

I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

The LXNAV S8, S80, S10 and S100 variometers are the best varios available. They are well designed and more reliable than any other currently available variometer. The built-in AHRS hardware makes them easy to install and reliable. LXNAV developed the AHRS hardware - they didn't tack-on an external AHRS unit. The varios fully replace older vario systems like the Cambridge 302/303 system, ILEC SN10, etc. They are available in either 57mm or 80mm sizes with exactly the same functionality in either size. And they use a single instrument hole instead of 2. They offer excellent variometer functions as well as waypoint and task navigation, FLARM and ADS-B traffic display and warnings, and final glide calculations. They also have built-in g-meters as standard. Also, with the current exchange rates, you can get an S8-Club speed-to-fly variometer for $870. That is much lower cost than previous speed-to-fly variometers. I also like that you can buy a "club" version with the same hardware and add software features easily at any time in the future. Also, the AHRS enable is a software enable that can be done easily at any time. They work great with FLARM units and Naviter Oudie units too. I very highly recommend them. I do sell them, but I also fly with them.

S8, S80, S8-Club, S80-Club
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=777

S10, S100
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=105

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 3:02:28 AM UTC-5, Kenz Dale wrote:
> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
>
> This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.
>
> LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.
>
> Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> > On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> >
> > This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.
> >
> > LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.
> >
> > Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone >autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of >their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a >dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a >perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.
>
> This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.
>
> I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?
>
> I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.

You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.

I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness. AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded situation:

1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable
2.) It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about upgradability
3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk customers for every last euro

None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product. In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it, without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an AHRS.

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:16:20 UTC+3, wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > > > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> > >
> > > This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.
> > >
> > > LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.
> > >
> > > Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone >autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of >their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a >dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a >perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.
> >
> > This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.
> >
> > I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?
> >
> > I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.
>
> You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.
>
> I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness. AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded situation:
>
> 1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable
> 2.) It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about upgradability
> 3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk customers for every last euro
>
> None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product. In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it, without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an AHRS.

So why not move the vario (with unlocked AHRS) to new glider? AHRS transferred.

[Kenz Dale]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:39:04 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:16:20 UTC+3, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > > > > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> > > >
> > > > This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.
> > > >
> > > > LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone >autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of >their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a >dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a >perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.
> > >
> > > This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.
> > >
> > > I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?
> > >
> > > I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.
> >
> > You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.
> >
> > I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness. AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded situation:
> >
> > 1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable
> > 2.) It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about upgradability
> > 3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk customers for every last euro
> >
> > None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product. In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it, without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an AHRS.
>
> So why not move the vario (with unlocked AHRS) to new glider? AHRS transferred.

That's an option, but here are my thoughts:

1) I guess I'm not impressed by a company which thinks that I should have to rip out my instrument panel in order to transfer a secret password. There's a lot of risk involved in tearing down a known-working system.
2) My glider's new owner might not appreciate having a hole in the instrument panel rendering the plane inoperable. In fact, I'm guessing that impacts resale value more than the money I save.
3) I might not be changing gliders, but instead am doing a panel upgrade. A $4k upgrade which has the sole purpose of having a larger screen has a lot less appeal when you tell me I need to spend another $800.

I agree there are AHRS workarounds. But the questions are "why should I have to?", "what's the real risk and cost?" and "am I better with another brand?"

The conclusion is that by not being so stingy with a software code LX Nav could treat AHRS customers a little better, avoiding this self-inflicted wound.

[Stephen Szikora]

Question for Paul Remde ... you also sell LX Navigation products. Are you steering customers away from LX Navigation toward LX Nav and if so, why? Not asking a gotcha question. Genuinely interested to know your experience with both across their product lines.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 3:57:23 PM UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:39:04 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:16:20 UTC+3, wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > > > > > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.
> > > > >
> > > > > LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone >autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of >their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a >dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a >perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.
> > > >
> > > > This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.
> > > >
> > > > I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?
> > > >
> > > > I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.
> > >
> > > You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.
> > >
> > > I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness. AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded situation:
> > >
> > > 1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable
> > > 2.) It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about upgradability
> > > 3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk customers for every last euro
> > >
> > > None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product. In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it, without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an AHRS.
> >
> > So why not move the vario (with unlocked AHRS) to new glider? AHRS transferred.
>
> That's an option, but here are my thoughts:
>
> 1) I guess I'm not impressed by a company which thinks that I should have to rip out my instrument panel in order to transfer a secret password. There's a lot of risk involved in tearing down a known-working system.
> 2) My glider's new owner might not appreciate having a hole in the instrument panel rendering the plane inoperable. In fact, I'm guessing that impacts resale value more than the money I save.
> 3) I might not be changing gliders, but instead am doing a panel upgrade. A $4k upgrade which has the sole purpose of having a larger screen has a lot less appeal when you tell me I need to spend another $800.
>
> I agree there are AHRS workarounds. But the questions are "why should I have to?", "what's the real risk and cost?" and "am I better with another brand?"
>
> The conclusion is that by not being so stingy with a software code LX Nav could treat AHRS customers a little better, avoiding this self-inflicted wound.

Speak to your LXNAV agent. I arranged a vario system upgrade and got the AHRS function transferred to the new one without additional charge. Not in the USA.

[Kenz Dale]

> Speak to your LXNAV agent. I arranged a vario system upgrade and got the AHRS function transferred to the new one without additional charge. Not in the USA.

That's a great data point. My information came last month from Wings and Wheels, who contacted the factory directly and relayed the response to me. So it looks like YMMV.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 4:48:33 PM UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> > Speak to your LXNAV agent. I arranged a vario system upgrade and got the AHRS function transferred to the new one without additional charge. Not in the USA.
>
> That's a great data point. My information came last month from Wings and Wheels, who contacted the factory directly and relayed the response to me. So it looks like YMMV.

On reflection. and thinking back several years Kenz, I think that my case may not be a such strong precedent for you. There was an upgrade price offer in place and my original unit was returned to the LXNAV agent and not sold to someone else. Also it was a 9000 system rather than a stand alone vario

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:57:23 UTC+3, Kenz Dale wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:39:04 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:16:20 UTC+3, wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > > > > > I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.
> > > > >
> > > > > LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone >autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of >their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a >dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a >perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.
> > > >
> > > > This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.
> > > >
> > > > I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?
> > > >
> > > > I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.
> > >
> > > You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.
> > >
> > > I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness. AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded situation:
> > >
> > > 1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable
> > > 2.) It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about upgradability
> > > 3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk customers for every last euro
> > >
> > > None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product. In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it, without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an AHRS.
> >
> > So why not move the vario (with unlocked AHRS) to new glider? AHRS transferred.
>
> That's an option, but here are my thoughts:
>
> 1) I guess I'm not impressed by a company which thinks that I should have to rip out my instrument panel in order to transfer a secret password. There's a lot of risk involved in tearing down a known-working system.
> 2) My glider's new owner might not appreciate having a hole in the instrument panel rendering the plane inoperable. In fact, I'm guessing that impacts resale value more than the money I save.
> 3) I might not be changing gliders, but instead am doing a panel upgrade. A $4k upgrade which has the sole purpose of having a larger screen has a lot less appeal when you tell me I need to spend another $800.
>
> I agree there are AHRS workarounds. But the questions are "why should I have to?", "what's the real risk and cost?" and "am I better with another brand?"
>
> The conclusion is that by not being so stingy with a software code LX Nav could treat AHRS customers a little better, avoiding this self-inflicted wound.

I pretty sure that you are the only pilot in the world that has a problem with this.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 5/13/2020 7:16 AM:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
>>>> I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the
>>>> AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.
>>>
>>> This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you
>>> revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that
>>> you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else
>>> because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out,
>>> you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have
>>> to spend $800.
>>>
>>> LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new
>>> installations.
>>>
>>> Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone
>>> >autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of
>>> >their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software
>>> is a >dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of
>>> portability is a >perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.
>>
>> This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these
>> devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for
>> the license to switch it on.
>>
>> I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid
>> an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I
>> had had an LX Navigation device instead?
>>
>> I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to
>> work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me
>> dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I
>> have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few
>> years.
>
> You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked
> with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key
> code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.
>
> I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness.
> AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough
> about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my
> experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded
> situation:
>
> 1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta
> spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable 2.)
> It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about
> upgradability 3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk
> customers for every last euro
>
> None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product.
> In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather
> than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a
> bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it,
> without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an
> AHRS.

When I wander down the ramp at soaring meccas like Ephrata, Parowan, and Ely, I
see mostly LXNav equipment. The pilots typically say they "love the equipment" and
think the company is responsive to their requests, so I have to believe the
company is making good choices.

I am puzzled by your complaint, however. Do you prefer the LXNav vario, and are
just disappointed it might cost more at some unknown time in future to change to
different vario of the same brand?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Kenz Dale]

> I am puzzled by your complaint, however. Do you prefer the LXNav vario, and are
> just disappointed it might cost more at some unknown time in future to change to
> different vario of the same brand?

AFAICT, LX Nav makes quality hardware which suits the needs of a wide range of pilots. However, it has made a decision which negatively and needlessly impacts a subset of those pilots. Consumers in 2020 expect that when they change their hardware they take their paid software with them.

If you are an instrument pilot and like to have an AHRS in your plane, then this impacts the value proposition for LX Nav. LX Navigation makes a portable AHRS system, which enhances its value relative to LX Nav.

I don't think there's a lot to read into this. Possibly, as krasw points out, the subset of pilot is no larger than a handful of people. Still, it was useful to me to know about the AHRS decision *before* purchasing an LX9000.. Now I can more fully consider my options and better understand the true cost of ownership. I imagine this information will be useful to other AHRS clients as well.

[Rakel]

A newby here.

Can anyone explain WHY LX NAV and LX Navigation split up? Just what caused this situation of two nearly identical product lines by two different companies from the same nation?

[Stephen Szikora]

I found this post from 2012 ...

“As I heard complete story:
First was LX Navigation company and they developed all instuments
Colibri lx16, lx166,lx7000, lx7007 itc.. and also lx8000.
Then some developers left the company and start new bussines with
LXNav company.
Mr. Rojnik gave them rights to sell LX8000 product + also the get
market, NAME and dealers.
At first they were working friendly companies, but if you sell similar
products it can cause that happened here.
They become biggest competitors.”

But there seems ti be more to it than that. The LX1000 was a Dittel. The LX4000 was a Filser. These were German companies that changed ownership and evolved over time to new entities. It seems that LX Navigation (and later LX Nav) may have been offshoots of some sort. I’m just as confused about it as you though.